Kobo, maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. But I referenced that large tomato farm in Arizona, a state that specifically has had water scarcity issues in the past. The wiki article also suggests that hydroponics uses a small fraction of the water ordinary techniques use. If this is the case, why would it not be appropriate for a place like northern nigeria, where techniques that don't use much water are likely to be of value?

EDIT: typo fixed

MShittu:

But I wouldn't assume that poorer farmers in Africa, and Nigeria in particular, would be so particular about the kinds of seeds they're buying. Yeah if you're talking about, say, DANGOTE, i mean you're bound to see big money being switched, but when you go down to like the everyday Nigerian farmer, i don't expect that you're gna see much desire for high grade seeds.

Now you are talking. So do you now see how our local farmers are not likely to compete well with the foreign farmers who have access to not only high yield but higher quality seeds>?

Then we need laws in place!!!!
Tarrifs, Quotas, whatever it takes to nurture Nigerian agriculture.

Kobojunkie:

In America, seeds are a billion dollar business, and No, farmers do not just go to the grocery store to buy a bag of corn so they can plant it. Farmers actually try to look for suppliers of high grade seeds to purchase from so they can get better yields for their money. If a farmer gets his hands on these seeds, he can harvest x times more than he planted. It is really interesting stuff. In places like indonesia, india, there are companies working on producing and selling high yield rice seeds to farmers around the world.

Our local farmers need to have some access to these in order to thrive.

If you have genetically modified seeds[which are not healthy anyway] but other factors like the quality of soil, irrigation, weeds and other biological and chemical pests are not taken care of, it will still make no sense. Truth is our agricultural industry is lacking in many ways and improved seeds alone cannot provide the solution.

Also, remember that the so called seeds are tropicalized. So, an improved orange seed that will normally grow well under normal circumstances in Florida may not thrive at all in Cross River.

Kobojunkie:

In America, seeds are a billion dollar business, and No, farmers do not just go to the grocery store to buy a bag of corn so they can plant it. Farmers actually try to look for suppliers of high grade seeds to purchase from so they can get better yields for their money. If a farmer gets his hands on these seeds, he can harvest x times more than he planted. It is really interesting stuff. In places like indonesia, india, there are companies working on producing and selling high yield rice seeds to farmers around the world.

Our local farmers need to have some access to these in order to thrive.

I see. Hrm. So this suggests that there is a lot of room for improvement in the local farming industry.

How necessary is it to have our own R& labs for this? Or is it sufficient to purchase seeds from elsewhere? Also, I thought that Monsanto and the equivalents do something funky to the seeds to require you to purchase many many times from them, rather than only once?

DapoBear:

Kobo, maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. But I referenced that large tomato farm in Arizona, a state that specifically has had water scarcity issues in the past. The wiki article also suggests that hydroponics uses a small fraction of the water ordinary techniques use. If this is the case, why would it not be appropriate for a place like northern nigeria, where techniques that don't use much water are likely to be of value?

EDIT: typo fixed

Do not get me wrong here. I am not saying it not appropriate for the north but water scarcity should not really be primary reason to switch over to hydroponics which requires water in the first place. A 318 Acres facility such as the one you posted on requires a whole lot of water to start with and the North does not really have a valid water issue to even embark on such an expensive project. There is so much land for planting up in the north and the water issue can be easily tackled if the government got it's act together.

MShittu:

Then we need laws in place!!!!
Tarrifs, Quotas, whatever it takes to nurture Nigerian agriculture.

Naw, what we need to do is to get our hands on those seeds

Thanks for the discussion btw Kobo, you've clarified the issues a lot for me.

DapoBear:

I see. Hrm. So this suggests that there is a lot of room for improvement in the local farming industry.

How necessary is it to have our own R& labs for this? Or is it sufficient to purchase seeds from elsewhere? Also, I thought that Monsanto and the equivalents do something funky to the seeds to require you to purchase many many times from them, rather than only once?

R& is still in it's infancy in Nigeria so It makes more sense to purchase from elsewhere still. I know I would. I believe our farmers need some broker service to help connect them to the right groups out there.

DapoBear:

Naw, what we need to do is to get our hands on those seeds

But if such seeds require so much money, then gov'ts gna need to do some serious subsidizing to allow the common farmer to get 'em, and, from what I gather, subsidies are bad and create unsustainable economies. U also gotta acknowledge what Aloy+Emeka said bout tropicalisation. Those american seeds might not work in Nigeria, and that's a real problem.

Also, since you seem to know a lot about agriculture, can you suggest a book/other resource of some sort that discusses some of these issues? Despite being from Ekiti and descended from a long line of noble iyan farmers, I don't know much about farming at all

Kobojunkie:

Do not get me wrong here. I am not saying it not appropriate for the north but water scarcity should not really be primary reason to switch over to hydroponics which requires water in the first place. A 318 Acres facility such as the one you posted on requires a whole lot of water to start with and the North does not really have a valid water issue to even embark on such an expensive project. There is so much land for planting up in the north and the water issue can be easily tackled if the government got it's act together.

IT'S NOT ABOUT the government getting its act together but for the private sector farmers to effectively manage their inputs to get the greatest yield.
However there is absolutely no sense in government even thinking of subsidizing private farmers in Nigeria.

MShittu:

But if such seeds require so much money, then gov'ts gna need to do some serious subsidizing to allow the common farmer to get 'em, and, from what I gather, subsidies are bad and create unsustainable economies. U also gotta acknowledge what Aloy+Emeka said bout tropicalisation. Those american seeds might not work in Nigeria, and that's a real problem.

Hrm. They require a lot of money, but presumably the additional yield causes it to pay for itself. So I don't really see a reason to subsidize. A better thing for the gov't to do, rather than giving them money to subsidize imported seeds is to build an R& lab here so we can produce the seeds ourselves here cheaply. That is better longterm than paying someone else to develop them for you.

But in the short term, yeah, I think we'll need to just pay full price to import

Aloy+Emeka:

If you have genetically modified seeds[which are not healthy anyway] but other factors like the quality of soil, irrigation, weeds and other biological and chemical pests are not taken care of, it will still make no sense. Truth is our agricultural industry is lacking in many ways and improved seeds alone cannot provide the solution.

Also, remember that the so called seeds are tropicalized. So, an improved orange seed that will normally grow well under normal circumstances in Florida may not thrive at all in Cross River.

There are issues with GM CROPS no doubt about that. However the main financial isssue is that the seeds have to be bought afresh at the beginning of every planting season.

DapoBear:

Hrm. They require a lot of money, but presumably the additional yield causes it to pay for itself. So I don't really see a reason to subsidize. A better thing for the gov't to do, rather than giving them money to subsidize imported seeds is to build an R& lab here so we can produce the seeds ourselves here cheaply. That is better longterm than paying someone else to develop them for you.

But in the short term, yeah, I think we'll need to just pay full price to import

But then there's still the problem with tropicalization. If you want to import from carribean countries then I assume that'd work, but I'm not sure. What I think gov't should do is start by building that R& lab and skip seed importation entirely.

Kobojunkie:


R& is still in it's infancy in Nigeria so It makes more sense to purchase from elsewhere still. I know I would. I believe our farmers need some broker service to help connect them to the right groups out there.

Hrm. So most of the crops we grow here are likely grown in countries with similar climates. Say, India and Indonesia, as you said. So depending on the maturity of the market there, perhaps it won't be so hard to import at good prices.

Finally, is importing seeds a one-time deal, or not? If we could get high-yield seeds, grow and then harvest those seeds and never have to buy again, that would be perfectly fine. Fixed costs are OK. But if it is a recurring cost, then it makes things quite a bit more expensive long-term.

Aloy+Emeka:

If you have genetically modified seeds[which are not healthy anyway] but other factors like the quality of soil, irrigation, weeds and other biological and chemical pests are not taken care of, it will still make no sense. Truth is our agricultural industry is lacking in many ways and improved seeds alone cannot provide the solution.

Let me say this now. No single seed you have today is pure seed, considering over the hundreds of thousands years, many of the plants have cross pollinated essentially engineered new and better seeds which have survived to this day for you and all out there.
That scientists have now taken it on themselves to speed up that process in the lab does not in any way mean what they produce is so many ways different from what nature has allowed to happen over time.
Yes, our agricultural industry, even as we claim it is the highest yielding industry today(That still baffles me), is lacking but giving farmers better access to better seeds will go a long way to increase yield for all.

Aloy+Emeka:

Also, remember that the so called seeds are tropicalized. So, an improved orange seed that will normally grow well under normal circumstances in Florida may not thrive at all in Cross River.

Not true!

DapoBear:

Hrm. So most of the crops we grow here are likely grown in countries with similar climates. Say, India and Indonesia, as you said. So depending on the maturity of the market there, perhaps it won't be so hard to import at good prices.

Finally, is importing seeds a one-time deal, or not? If we could get high-yield seeds, grow and then harvest those seeds and never have to buy again, that would be perfectly fine. Fixed costs are OK. But if it is a recurring cost, then it makes things quite a bit more expensive long-term.

Didn't think of the solution in the second paragraph. If its the case, then lets start importing !

MShittu:

But then there's still the problem with tropicalization. If you want to import from carribean countries then I assume that'd work, but I'm not sure. What I think gov't should do is start by building that R& lab and skip seed importation entirely.

There is bound to be at least one country with similar climate that is compatible. North American crops are unlikely to be great, but I suspect Brazilian or Indonesian will work well.

DapoBear:

Finally, is importing seeds a one-time deal, or not? If we could get high-yield seeds, grow and then harvest those seeds and never have to buy again, that would be perfectly fine. Fixed costs are OK. But if it is a recurring cost, then it makes things quite a bit more expensive long-term.

NO, its not a one-time deal and therein lies the catch. How do you think companies like Monsanto would make their money which would justify and cover their high research and development costs

tensor777:

There are issues with GM CROPS no doubt about that. However the main financial isssue is that the seeds have to be bought afresh at the beginning of  every planting season.

Yeah, I was afraid of this. I vaguely remembered that Monsanto does something screwy that makes it so that you have to buy from them every year. . .

Bleh.

tensor777:

NO, its not a one-time deal and therein lies the catch. How do you think companies like Monsanto would make their money which would justify and cover their high research and development costs

Indeed, I raised this concern on page 1 or 2 of this thread, but was not 100% sure.

DapoBear:

Hrm. So most of the crops we grow here are likely grown in countries with similar climates. Say, India and Indonesia, as you said. So depending on the maturity of the market there, perhaps it won't be so hard to import at good prices.

I was able to have some seeds from Ohio planted in Nigeria and they grew well, so I am not sure of the similar climate theory and whether it even applies anymore. We definitely need to increase access to information and seeds at all levels.
If small scale farmers/garden farmers can have access to better seeds, image what that increase will do to the lives of these people, let alone our markets.

DapoBear:

Finally, is importing seeds a one-time deal, or not? If we could get high-yield seeds, grow and then harvest those seeds and never have to buy again, that would be perfectly fine. Fixed costs are OK. But if it is a recurring cost, then it makes things quite a bit more expensive long-term.

That I am not certain is the case. If you purchase seeds that are resistant to the current banana disease strain this year, those seeds might not be resistant to the strain that shows up next year to attack your crops. It is easy to assume the companies selling the seeds are someway trying to rip you off but I am certain if people understood the reasons, they would be more able to understand why these companies mostly work in their own interest.

So who's willing to import those seeds?

Are you even certain farmers can afford the seeds you have to sell?>

No probs, I'll sell em to maself
But w8, Obsanajo's farms, what seeds do they use?

I am pretty sure they get their seeds from good sources. I mean many of the big farms do. However, you cannot compare that to what is obtain which the majority of farmers out there who are mainly poor.

Kobojunkie: so reading this article (http://www.dailytech.com/US+Farmers+Realize+Disadvantages+of+Genetically+Engineered+Seed/article19802.htm) and especially the comments, it seems that most of the increased yield comes from the crops are pesticide-resistant, you can spray Roundup, and completely kill off the weeds.

If my labor costs are low, cant I get the same affect by just having my workers thoroughly weed the crops?

Secondly, I saw this paragraph:

"The technology has really been hyped up a lot," said Doug Gurian-Sherman, author of a 2009 study for the Union of Concerned Scientists, which concluded that yield increases have come mainly from conventional plant breeding. "Even on a shoestring, conventional breeding outperforms genetic engineering.

So in other words, just by breeding existing plants yourself (or buying seeds that have been bred), you can get most of the gain in yield. So perhaps it isn't strictly necessary to buy the genetically modified seeds that Monsanto and similar companies sell (which most be done one every year.)

Genetically altered seeds and incessant use of pesticides are hazardous to d environment and consumers,something oyinbo will never tell u but if u ve a bit of comon sense,u should know that.Nigeria doesn't those bulls-hit that is already backfiring on dem

I think you should re-read that article. From the first paragraph, I could tell the author had one eyes closed while writing that thing.  After going through the comments, I discovered I was not the only one who saw it.

Seed farmers throughout the United States are complaining that biotech seeds (which are genetically altered seeds)[b] are becoming much too expensive, resistant to weed killer, and can contaminate conventional seed crops. However, they still continue to use the seeds. [/b]But with anticompetitive practices being investigated on biotech seed companies, seed farmers may change their minds.

What sort of crap is that?

southerners, u better start producing bananas for nigeria, if u do not want trouble

u ppl are very lazy
the north produces
rice
tomatoes
pepper
maize
millet
etc
and u can only produce
crude oil
palm oil
and vegetable oil


what good is that

STRAT PRODUCING THIS BANANA BEFORE U STRAT SOMETHING U CAN NOT FINISH

There was a recent scintific findings that concludes that high increase in cancer in d west is caused by toxic and chemically induced food. Pesticides destroys natural balances and just as it destroys d so-called pest,so it kills d final consumer slowly.