Katsumoto:

And you think the US has the policy it does for Cuba because of a few exiles? You got to be kidding.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/nov/03/cuba-embargo-slips-as-south-floridas-top-priority/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban-American_lobby

Piss of the Cuban Americans and you have no chance at competing in Florida, a pretty important swing state. If their resistance goes away, then so will the embargo.

Kobojunkie:

That is absolute nonsense. The embargo was from US and not from the 100 and so remaining countries of the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helms-Burton_Act

Ibime said:

When my father was getting free milk from the Government in school in 1960, GDP was nearly zero.

Actually your father could get free milk in 1960 because literacy rate was at 7% or thereabouts. Only a select few saw the four walls of a classroom.

Today, with literacy rate at 75%, following the mass education programmes of post-independence Nigerian governments, there are millions more people being educated than the privileged few like your dad in 1960.

This explains why there isn't enough free milk to go round anymore.

As GDP dey grow, na so our suffer dey increase.

Make una carry go abeg.

Wrong again. At independence, infant mortality rates, as well as Under 5 mortality rates, were TRIPLE what they are today. Malnutrition rates were much higher, illiteracy ravaged the land. There was not a single university in the entire country, electricity supply was limited to less than 1% of the population - mostly colonial officers and the tiny new indigenous elite, roads were next to non-existent, cars were only for the extremely rich, and most people walked around barefoot!

So please stop propagating the colonial MYTH that life was better in 1960s Nigeria than it is today.

It was ten times worse.

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DapoBear:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/nov/03/cuba-embargo-slips-as-south-floridas-top-priority/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban-American_lobby

Piss of the Cuban Americans and you have no chance at competing in Florida, a pretty important swing state. If their resistance goes away, then so will the embargo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helms-Burton_Act

You are kidding; the people in Washington are not influenced by local politics. Politics in Florida might be influenced to a lesser degree by Cuban exiles but make no mistake about it, Florida belongs to elderly white people.

**Wrong thread**

DapoBear:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helms-Burton_Act

That very link explains to you that the embargo was from the US and not from the whole world. I am not sure what you do not understand in that.

Actually your father could get free milk in  1960  because literacy rate was at 7 % or  thereabouts. Only a select few saw the four  walls of a classroom. Today, with literacy rate at 75 %, following the mass education programmes of post- independence Nigerian governments, there  are millions more people being educated than the privileged few like your dad in 1960.

Lol , good point. People like romanticize the past when there were no roads and people lived in mud houses with straw roofing. But i doubt that figure of 75% literacy, is any country in Africa that literate ?

edoyad, I see you have a lot to learn about Africa. Some countries on the continent like Namibia and Equatorial Guinea are approaching 90% literacy.

Here are the national stats on literacy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

Katsumoto:

You are kidding; the people in Washington are not influenced by local politics. Politics in Florida might be influenced to a lesser degree by Cuban exiles but make no mistake about it, Florida belongs to elderly white people.

That is not how it works. If you lose the Cuban vote, you have no chance of winning Florida. Florida is a 50/50 proposition as is; neither side can afford to not fall in line on this issue.

Kobojunkie:

That very link explains to you that the embargo was from the US and not from the whole world. I am not sure what you do not understand in that.  

Yes, we all understand that. But if the US penalizes companies that trade with Cuba, then those companies won't take the risk. Here are some of the relevant provisions:

[list]
[*] International Sanctions against the Cuban Government. Economic embargo, any non-US company that deals economically with Cuba can be subjected to legal action and that company's leadership can be barred from entry into the United States. Sanctions may be applied to non-U.S. companies trading with Cuba. This means that internationally operating companies have to choose between Cuba and the US, which is a much larger market.
[*] United States opposition against Cuban membership in International Financial Institutions.
[*] Exclusion of certain aliens from the United States, primarily senior officials or major stock holders, and their families, of companies that do business in Cuba on property expropriated from American citizens. To date, executives from Italy, Mexico, Canada, Israel, and the United Kingdom have been barred.
[*] Prohibits the completion of the Juragua Nuclear Power Plant.
[/list]

edoyad:



Lol , good point. People like romanticize the past when there were no roads and people lived in mud houses with straw roofing. But i doubt that figure of 75% literacy, is any country in Africa that literate ?

You are correct

ROSSIKE:

edoyad you have a lot to learn about Africa.

Here are the stats on literacy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

I am inclined to go with the statistics from the Economist which puts the figure at around 60%. I will search through the archives later. I doubt any stats that gives Georgia 100%.

DapoBear:

Yes, we all understand that. But if the US penalizes companies that trade with Cuba, then those companies won't take the risk. Here are some of the relevant provisions:

[list]
[*] International Sanctions against the Cuban Government. Economic embargo, any non-US company that deals economically with Cuba can be subjected to legal action and that company's leadership can be barred from entry into the United States. Sanctions may be applied to non-U.S. companies trading with Cuba. This means that internationally operating companies have to choose between Cuba and the US, which is a much larger market.
[*] United States opposition against Cuban membership in International Financial Institutions.
[*] Exclusion of certain aliens from the United States, primarily senior officials or major stock holders, and their families, of companies that do business in Cuba on property expropriated from American citizens. To date, executives from Italy, Mexico, Canada, Israel, and the United Kingdom have been barred.
[*] Prohibits the completion of the Juragua Nuclear Power Plant.
[/list]

Sigh!!!

List of companies doing business with Cuba [size=14pt] ----> [/size]  http://liberatecuba.tripod.com/list.htm

DapoBear:

That is not how it works. If you lose the Cuban vote, you have no chance of winning Florida. Florida is a 50/50 proposition as is; neither side can afford to not fall in line on this issue.

Yes, we all understand that. But if the US penalizes companies that trade with Cuba, then those companies won't take the risk. Here are some of the relevant provisions:

[list]
[*] International Sanctions against the Cuban Government. Economic embargo, any non-US company that deals economically with Cuba can be subjected to legal action and that company's leadership can be barred from entry into the United States. Sanctions may be applied to non-U.S. companies trading with Cuba. This means that internationally operating companies have to choose between Cuba and the US, which is a much larger market.
[*] United States opposition against Cuban membership in International Financial Institutions.
[*] Exclusion of certain aliens from the United States, primarily senior officials or major stock holders, and their families, of companies that do business in Cuba on property expropriated from American citizens. To date, executives from Italy, Mexico, Canada, Israel, and the United Kingdom have been barred.
[*] Prohibits the completion of the Juragua Nuclear Power Plant.
[/list]

Many non-US companies do business with Cuba and the US.

Katsumoto said:

I am inclined to go with the statistics from the Economist which puts the figure at around 60%. I will search through the archives later. I doubt any stats that gives Georgia 100%.

Katsumoto, sorry, but the Primary Source for national statistics is the United Nations and its agencies like UNICEF, not a private publication like The Economist.

The stats I quoted from wiki, as stated on the page, were based on the United Nations Development Programme Report 2009.

ROSSIKE:

Katsumoto said:

Katsumoto, sorry, but the Primary Source for national statistics is the United Nations and its agencies like UNICEF, not a private publication like The Economist.

The stats I quoted from wiki, as stated on the page, were based on the United Nations Development Programme Report 2009.

The UN and its agencies get their figures from government departments which often fix figures to influence aid. I will trust a more credible publication like the Economist. That being said, its down to opinion really.

Many non-US companies might do business with Cuba. But that doesn't accurately measure the negative impact. You look at the loss of companies and opportunities that would be available were the ban not in place, minus those that are present. Pointing to a few companies here and there that do trade doesn't suggest that this negative impact is not significant.

And not being able to fully trade with the largest economy in the world, which happens to be only 90 miles away is going to be very harmful for an economy.

DapoBear:

Many non-US companies might do business with Cuba. But that doesn't accurately measure the negative impact. You look at the loss of companies and opportunities that would be available were the ban not in place, minus those that are present. Pointing to a few companies here and there that do trade doesn't suggest that this negative impact is not significant.

And not being able to fully trade with the largest economy in the world, which happens to be only 90 miles away is going to be very harmful for an economy.

Are you suggesting that Cuba is a wonderful place to conduct business? Are you suggesting that Cuba has the right business climate?

Katsumoto:

Are you suggesting that Cuba is a wonderful place to conduct business? Are you suggesting that Cuba has the right business climate?

Can the same argument not be made about Mexico? Certainly isn't a great place to do business, from what I've heard. Yet the positive economic impact of being right next to the biggest economy in the world is tremendous.

At some point, being next to such a large economy is an overwhelming advantage, an advantage too large to be messed up even if one tries to do so on purpose.

DapoBear:

Can the same argument not be made about Mexico? Certainly isn't a great place to do business, from what I've heard. Yet the positive economic impact of being right next to the biggest economy in the world is tremendous.

At some point, being next to such a large economy is an overwhelming advantage, an advantage too large to be messed up even if one tries to do so on purpose.

But Mexico has many other attributes that Cuba does not have such as population, location - between the US and Latin America, border with the US, NAFTA etc. If you want to analyse Cuba, compare it with the rest of the Caribbean islands. Without the Marxist ideology and its resultant embargo, Cuba would be nothing more that a tourist destination like the rest of the islands.

Cuba is FAR closer to the US than most of those carribean countries. 228 miles from Miami to Havana, and I think as little as 90ish miles at the two closest points.

Also, those tourism dollars would not be small. Their per capita GDP is already $10k/per person. Hard for me to estimate how much access to American tourism would add to their economy, but it would be a large fraction of their current GDP.

I mean, I don't see how this is really controversial. Unless somehow you think that free trade between the two countries would have minimal impact on the GDP of Havana.

Not to mention the benefit of being able to directly export things like cigars, etc to the US.

Abeg, good people, lets tone down arguments about Cuba, Mexico, Florida etc and focus on how best to improve the structures that can take Nigeria foward.

In my opinion, we need to deviate from our current unitary system to true federalism, we can fill books discussing the benefits of such a move. It will have the effect of turning an old worn out, near dead goat into an all conquering, hyper-randy sire!
We also need to treat the scale of illiteracy in the country as a national emergency and create unorthodox but effective ways of rapidly educating our people.

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I am a beautiful young and charming girl looking for real love and protection, I have gone through your profile and am very happy to contact you for us to know ourselves.
You know that distance, age and indeed color cannot stop true love. So darling, I would appreciate if you send Email to my private Email box: ( marian.maian39@yahoo.com ) So that i can send my pictures and more information about my self to you.
I wait for your positive reply,
Yours in love
Marian.

katsumoto said:

The UN and its agencies get their figures from government departments which often fix figures to influence aid. I will trust a more credible publication like the Economist. That being said, its down to opinion really.

The UN most certainly do NOT get their basic indicators of the nations from government departments. And if the govts ''fixed figures to influence aid'', why would the figures be showing improvements as opposed to regression? Figures implying regression would lead to more aid not less.

The UN sends in teams of highly trained research personnel into every country and conducts proper, independent field studies. The Economist is a private paper with no known research methodologies, and certainly nowhere near the number or quality of research staff the UN deploys in its national surveys.

very interesting topic away frm ethnic nonsense. Nigeria literacy is no where near that figure in the north where common communication is still a barrier @ transacting bus. Govt. Need to tackle this area to power fwd the economy.
@beaf, was driving home last wk when the info. Minister was giving some figures on amt awarded for transformers, power plants, etc all over the country. Have u those figures pls.?
If implemented that will be the clincher

Beaf:

Abeg, good people, lets tone down arguments about Cuba, Mexico, Florida etc and focus on how best to improve the structures that can take Nigeria foward.

In my opinion, we need to deviate from our current unitary system to true federalism, we can fill books discussing the benefits of such a move. It will have the effect of turning an old worn out, near dead goat into an all conquering, hyper-randy sire!
We also need to treat the scale of illiteracy in the country as a national emergency and create unorthodox but effective ways of rapidly educating our people.

I actually have a preference for confederationism but considering the current state of affairs in Nigeria, true federalism is not a bad idea. Either can lead to development and growth in all areas of Nigeria.

Now isn't this a refreshing change from the tribal smut that had characterized politics section in the past few days. This is what politics section is--or should be-- known for: intellectually stimulating debates, where differences in opinion need not resort to tribal mudslinging.


Keep it coming guys!

DapoBear:

Cuba is FAR closer to the US than most of those carribean countries. 228 miles from Miami to Havana, and I think as little as 90ish miles at the two closest points.

Also, those tourism dollars would not be small. Their per capita GDP is already $10k/per person. Hard for me to estimate how much access to American tourism would add to their economy, but it would be a large fraction of their current GDP.

I mean, I don't see how this is really controversial. Unless somehow you think that free trade between the two countries would have minimal impact on the GDP of Havana.

Not to mention the benefit of being able to directly export things like cigars, etc to the US.

I read a piece today about Cuba that I want to share with you; see below. You can click on the link to read the whole article.

'In all this Mr Castro is bowing to reality. He has been withering in his criticism of the featherbedding that has bankrupted the state. He has also refused to blame the American economic embargo for problems which he rightly says are self-inflicted. His pragmatism has finally won out against his brother’s doctrinaire Utopianism.'

http://www.economist.com/node/17463463?story_id=17463463&fsrc=rss

Katsumoto:

I read a piece today about Cuba that I want to share with you; see below. You can click on the link to read the whole article.

'In all this Mr Castro is bowing to reality. He has been withering in his criticism of the featherbedding that has bankrupted the state. He has also refused to blame the American economic embargo for problems which he rightly says are self-inflicted. His pragmatism has finally won out against his brother’s doctrinaire Utopianism.'

http://www.economist.com/node/17463463?story_id=17463463&fsrc=rss

Thanks for the article, I liked it. So you seem to be of the opinion that the lion's share of the blame for Cuba's economic problems go to the economic system they run, not necessarily the blockade, yes? But I hope you see how that doesn't conflict with my own position regarding what impact lifting the embargo would have on the Cuban economy (or at least, I don't see the contradiction, point it out if you see one.)

DapoBear:

Thanks for the article, I liked it. So you seem to be of the opinion that the lion's share of the blame for Cuba's economic problems go to the economic system they run, not necessarily the blockade, yes? But I hope you see how that doesn't conflict with my own position regarding what impact lifting the embargo would have on the Cuban economy (or at least, I don't see the contradiction, point it out if you see one.)

I get your point but the causes are not mutually exclusive. Cuba can solve both problems by loosening its grip and embracing state capitalism like Deng Xiaoping did in 1978. From the article, you can tell that Raul has started to move Cuba in that direction.

Katsumoto:

I get your point but the causes are not mutually exclusive. Cuba can solve both problems by loosening its grip and embracing state capitalism like Deng Xiaoping did in 1978. From the article, you can tell that Raul has started to move Cuba in that direction.

Agreed. Raul sounds pretty legit.