budaatum:

Could you point to any of these that did not happen before people took on religion? For instance, was there pre-religion slavery or not, was there pre-apostate killing or not and so on.

As an aside. There really was never a time when people did not have a religion. Reference is here.

My own point is simple. If all the problems in the world predate religion, and if religion is from a perfect and loving God,then religion should abolish those bad stuff.

Human error is allowed, but God should not make error. So any religion that claim to be from God and such religion contains errors, I'm off it. I don't jerry pick.

Xmuslim:


My own point is simple. If all the problems in the world predate religion, and if religion is from a perfect and loving God,then religion should abolish those bad stuff.

Human error is allowed, but God should not make error. So any religion that claim to be from God and such religion contains errors, I'm off it. I don't jerry pick.

I'm glad you noted humans. Shows thoughtfulness. I think you do cherry pick though, at least, a perspective.

I wonder if you would consider the Books we read and the religions we propagate them with are the human understandings of the knowledge of God. It is of course imperfect since we humans are prone to error, but I think we did our best and would do better because of the knowledge gained discussing God than we would have done without, as history shows.

Do let me know what you think.

budaatum:

I'm glad you noted humans. Shows thoughtfulness. I think you do cherry pick though, at least, a perspective.

.

If I want to cherry pick, I would remain a Muslim because there are thousands of good stuffs in the Qur'an and hadith. But I can't follow a religion after finding errors (even if it is one) in their scripture.

I would rather continue to be a good human and applaud the good in the religion but speak against the bad in it

budaatum:



I wonder if you would consider the Books we read and the religions we propagate them with are the human understandings of the knowledge of God. It is of course imperfect since we humans are prone to error, but I think we did our best and would do better because of the knowledge gained discussing God than we would have done without, as history shows.

Do let me know what you think.

When a verse or hadith says that Allah would condemn every non-Muslims to eternal hell, I will not blame my understanding because what the book claim is crystal clear

When Qur'an says I can marry and have sex with a child girl that hasn't started menstruation...

When Qur'an says Muslim should fight non-Muslims and claim the land for Islam.....

When hadith says that Muhammad was raised to fight non-Muslims until they embrace Islam....

Etc.

I understand that human grasp what he read or heard from human perspective which is prone to error, but I expect God to do a better job by sending a more clearer book. I can't stand crystal clear errors in a book that is claimed to be from God

tintingz:
1. If there was no religion before people took it up, religion still did the above listed and not discouraged it.

Please show me one religion that does not discourage killing, or stealing!

I doubt you'd see the error in your thinking. Are religions meant to fall down from heaven before humans create them with their minds?

tintingz:
2. If there has always been a religion(i dont think it is the case as there would be a TIME religion started), this still support what i said.

Shows how little you think. One of the oldest religious rites is the burial of the dead since humans tend to have a difficulty just throwing dead bodies away. Go check how long humans have been performing religious rites for their dead!

tintingz:
Religion(no all) did bad things in the past and we are still seeing some effect till date.

Like everything, there is the good and the bad, which is the exact teaching of religions, so you may learn the difference between the two, but you can't seem to tell the difference for obvious reasons.

I feel the dare posed in this thread might interest you.

Xmuslim:


When a verse or hadith says that Allah would condemn every non-Muslims to eternal hell, I will not blame my understanding because what the book claim is crystal clear

When Qur'an says I can marry and have sex with a child girl that hasn't started menstruation...

When Qur'an says Muslim should fight non-Muslims and claim the land for Islam.....

When hadith says that Muhammad was raised to fight non-Muslims until they embrace Islam....

Etc.

I understand that human grasp what he read or heard from human perspective which is prone to error, but I expect God to do a better job by sending a more clearer book. I can't stand crystal clear errors in a book that is claimed to be from God

So, instead of overcoming what you understand to be wrong, you are saying the book says do it so it must be done?

I think you are a honest person Xmuslim, so I will just ask. In your opinion, would you say a person who does what those hadiths and verses say has learnt anything from the book?

If they have learnt anything, what would you say it is?

Can it be better than the ten commandments.
Please explain "clearer".

Xmuslim:


If I want to cherry pick, I would remain a Muslim because there are thousands of good stuffs in the Qur'an and hadith. But I can't follow a religion after finding errors (even if it is one) in their scripture.

I would rather continue to be a good human and applaud the good in the religion but speak against the bad in it

You are not supposed to follow religion, Xmuslim, especially not after you have gotten to its destination. If you were, there'd be no brain in your head and you'd be mediocre like most!

With you specifically, religion has done what it is supposed to do by opening your eyes to an understanding of human beings so that you can choose to be better.

Below is a translation of the verse We put in the book for it:

O Xmuslim, indeed We have presented you with various diverse examples so that you may learn from them and know thyself. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you for Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.

Xmuslim:


When a verse or hadith says that Allah would condemn every non-Muslims to eternal hell, I will not blame my understanding because what the book claim is crystal clear.

Explain to me what the book claims please.

budaatum:

So, instead of overcoming what you understand to be wrong, you are saying the book says do it so it must be done?

I think you are a honest person Xmuslim, so I will just ask. In your opinion, would you say a person who does what those hadiths and verses say has learnt anything from the book?

If they have learnt anything, what would you say it is?

Can it be better than the ten commandments.
Please explain "clearer".

you need to understand the basics of Islam before going further into it.

First, you need to follow Qur'an (verbatim)

Second, you need to follow authentic hadith

Third, you need to follow the above two based on the understanding of the pious predecessors (I.e the first three generations of Muslims)

If you follow all the above. You will do as the scripture says. You won't act otherwise, and that's the Islamic (sunni Islam) definition of righteousness/piety.


Note: I discourage the above because I believe such scriptures cannot be from God(if he exist)

budaatum:



Below is a translation of the verse We put in the book for it:

O Xmuslim, indeed We have presented you with various diverse examples so that you may learn from them and know thyself. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you for Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.

The verse you quoted is misinterpreted (many words are removed and many are introduced).

That aside, being righteous has Arabic meaning and sharia meaning. Muslim must follow sharia meaning.

According to sharia meaning, no human is righteous unless he is a Muslim.

Another word with two meaning

1) kafara (كفر).
Arabic meaning: anyone that knows the truth and decide not to accept it.

Sharia meaning: any non-Muslims

2) Muslim

Arabic meaning: submission
Sharia meaning: anyone that accept Allah as God, Muhammad as messager of God..... Till the end of the hadith that define who is a Muslim

Xmuslim:

The verse you quoted is misinterpreted (many words are removed and many are introduced).

That, Xmuslim, is what is done by those who understand.

Xmuslim:
That aside, being righteous has Arabic meaning and sharia meaning. Muslim must follow sharia meaning.

According to sharia meaning, no human is righteous unless he is a Muslim.

Sharia meaning must be righteous or it is not from Allah at all and killing is most definitely not from Allah!

Do you disagree?

Xmuslim:

Another word with two meaning

1) kafara (كفر).
Arabic meaning: anyone that knows the truth and decide not to accept it.

Sharia meaning: any non-Muslims

So I let God decide.

Xmuslim:
2) Muslim

Arabic meaning: submission
Sharia meaning: anyone that accept Allah as God, Muhammad as messager of God..... Till the end of the hadith that define who is a Muslim

So, if I want to be a Muslim, I should learn as the Messenger of God learnt and see what Allah teaches me.

I can do that. If I hadn't already learnt from Allah and the Messenger of God.

budaatum:

Please show me one religion that does not discourage killing, or stealing!

I doubt you'd see the error in your thinking. Are religions meant to fall down from heaven before humans create them with their minds?

Killing of apostates, homosexual, adulterers, non-believers etc do religion(some) do/did it or not?

Shows how little you think. One of the oldest religious rites is the burial of the dead since humans tend to have a difficulty just throwing dead bodies away. Go check how long humans have been performing religious rites for their dead!

Ok, so right from when homos evolved, they've been religious? They're naturally being Religious, no starting and learning point?

Which makes me ask, why aren't animals Religious? I know you're intelligent Buda but You need to pick up a biology book.

Like everything, there is the good and the bad, which is the exact teaching of religions, so you may learn the difference between the two, but you can't seem to tell the difference for obvious reasons.

I feel the dare posed in this thread might interest you.

I have not said Religion doesn't have good teachings, I said we can't deny Religion is "part" of the disasters in world history. It's a fact.

You're the one making up arguing for me. Go back and read my previous post.

Xmuslim:
you need to understand the basics of Islam before going further into it.

First, you need to follow Qur'an (verbatim)

Second, you need to follow authentic hadith

Third, you need to follow the above two based on the understanding of the pious predecessors (I.e the first three generations of Muslims)

If you follow all the above. You will do as the scripture says. You won't act otherwise, and that's the Islamic (sunni Islam) definition of righteousness/piety.


Note: I discourage the above because I believe such scriptures cannot be from God(if he exist)

I know Buda to be an intelligent person but sometimes he ignore some basic facts just to argue. After he's shown references he still ignores it and argue another thing for you.

I don't know if this is deliberate or he is Ignorant in this aspect. Budaatum I respect you, what exactly is your argument?

Xmuslim:
you need to understand the basics of Islam before going further into it.

First, you need to follow Qur'an (verbatim)

No I don't "need to follow Qur'an (verbatim)", nor can I even if I tried since the effort would be way far beyond my human capabilities!

Evidence does after all show us that there are many Muslims who do not "follow Qur'an (verbatim)".

Do let me know if this is not so.

Xmuslim:
Second, you need to follow authentic hadith

No I don't! I can be an illiterate Muslim who's never heard of an hadith!

Xmuslim:
Third, you need to follow the above two based on the understanding of the pious predecessors (I.e the first three generations of Muslims)

Seriously

Can I not be a Muslim without knowing there were three generations of pious predecessors?

Xmuslim:
If you follow all the above. You will do as the scripture says. You won't act otherwise, and that's the Islamic (sunni Islam) definition of righteousness/piety.

Who says I that God took the bother to put a brain in my head should adopt sunni Islam definition of Islam or of righteousness/piety? Are you suggesting I discard my own understanding of Islam and righteousness/piety and adopt an understanding of Islam and righteousness/piety according to the teachings of Sunni Islam?

Please tell me if you think that after I've learnt it it would not be my own understanding all the same.

Xmuslim:
I discourage the above because I believe such scriptures cannot be from God(if he exist)

So, what you are saying is the imperfect Scriptures given to you by the ancient so called Messengers of God who were human and so prone to error could not have been from God (if God exists).

So lets deal with what does exist.

Where did the Quran come from?

tintingz:


I know Buda to be an intelligent person but sometimes he ignore some basic facts just to argue. After he's shown references he still ignores it and argue another thing for you.

I don't know if this is deliberate or he is Ignorant in this aspect. Budaatum I respect you, what exactly is your argument?

My point is that you are attacking Islam for the errors of some, even the many I'd admit, that Islam is precisely meant to cure.

Take you two. Both of you were Muslims, and I can see at least Xmuslim read the books, but it seems the two of you were brought up on what Xmuslim describes as Sunni Islam and you both rebel against such nonsense as you rightly should, but unfortunately, since your version of Sunni Islam is all you know, you both dump on the whole religion which you mischaracterise.

As you know, I am not a Muslim and don't care if Allah existed or not. But the Scripture itself does exist, so instead of bothering about some Allah I can't see and letting three generations of pious predecessors brainwash my head, which by the way is the ignorant belief that makes some strap bombs to their waist, I can at least get a proper understanding of the Scripture I see in front of me.

The issue you have with Islam is actually a particular misunderstanding of the Quran that promotes the error of literalism. If those who think that way were honest or not ignorant they'd admit that there was no way a 20th century Nigerian, for instance, can possibly know the literal meaning of an 8th century Arabic book. But instead of embracing your own 20th century understanding, you focus on the only understanding you were indoctrinated into and know to be false and thereby sadly throw away the water and the baby.

We've been over this tingtingz. And thanks for the compliments. I wouldn't discuss with you if you were otherwise and will not rest until you see my point, for that is Islam. It cures unseeing. And your eyes already work.

budaatum:

My point is that you are attacking Islam for the errors of some, even the many I'd admit, that Islam is precisely meant to cure.

Take you two. Both of you were Muslims, and I can see at least Xmuslim read the books, but it seems the two of you were brought up on what Xmuslim describes as Sunni Islam and you both rebel against such nonsense as you rightly should, but unfortunately, since your version of Sunni Islam is all you know, you both dump on the whole religion which you mischaracterise.

As you know, I am not a Muslim and don't care if Allah existed or not. But the Scripture itself does exist, so instead of bothering about some Allah I can't see and letting three generations of pious predecessors brainwash my head, which by the way is the ignorant belief that makes some strap bombs to their waist, I can at least get a proper understanding of the Scripture I see in front of me.

The issue you have with Islam is actually a particular misunderstanding of the Quran that promotes the error of literalism. If those who think that way were honest or not ignorant they'd admit that there was no way a 20th century Nigerian, for instance, can possibly know the literal meaning of an 8th century Arabic book. But instead of embracing your own 20th century understanding, you focus on the only understanding you were indoctrinated into and know to be false and thereby sadly throw away the water and the baby.

We've been over this tingtingz. And thanks for the compliments. I wouldn't discuss with you if you were otherwise and will not rest until you see my point, for that is Islam. It cures unseeing. And your eyes already work.

Ok. Do you understand Islam?

Is Islam doctrines free of barbaric practices?

Let's discuss maybe we will learn from each other.

tintingz:
Killing of apostates, homosexual, adulterers, non-believers etc do religion(some) do/did it or not?

Did the religion kill apostates, homosexual, adulterers, non-believers etc, or did religious people kill "apostates, homosexual, adulterers, non-believers etc", or do those distinctions not matter to you?

tintingz:
Ok, so right from when homos evolved, they've been religious? They're naturally being Religious, no starting and learning point?

You fail to recognise that society forms its religion. That people in a society come together to say, "this is our God", and will diligently pass it down to their descendents until people like you open your eyes and demand change which forms the next starting and learning point. Bluntly speaking, you are the next Prophet. You just don't see it yet.

tintingz:
Which makes me ask, why aren't animals Religious? I know you're intelligent Buda but You need to pick up a biology book.

Some are religious, tingtingz. Some animals will religiously return to give birth at the same waterhole at the same time every year. Elephants are known to have a graveyard. You perhaps need to pick up a Sociology or Anthropology book.

C.f. Religious behavior in animals

tintingz:
I have not said Religion doesn't have good teachings, I said we can't deny Religion is "part" of the disasters in world history. It's a fact.

No it is not a fact! The disaster in the world was not done by religion even when religion was used to do it. You will never blame the knife for stabbing you in the back so why blame religion for what some humans do with it? Is the religion the responsible agent, and not the human?

What is a fact is humans have adopted religion as one of their tools to inflict "disasters in the world". But even still, more good than bad has come out of the reading of the Scripture itself and the human race would have been worse off without it.

budaatum:



Where did the Quran come from?

I don't know for sure, but I'm certain it is not from the God of the universe (if such being exist)

Xmuslim:
I don't know for sure, but I'm certain it is not from the God of the universe (if such being exist)

Then you will not mind if I offer some proposals. Have a look at the following, tell me where you disagree.

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Origins_of_the_Quran

tintingz:


Ok. Do you understand Islam?

Is Islam doctrines free of barbaric practices?

Let's discuss maybe we will learn from each other.

Yes, tintingz. We are presenting our understandings, discussing, arguing, debating, hoping to reach that which Allah trully Wills with the brains that are inside of our heads.

That, is my understanding of Islam.

budaatum:


Evidence does after all show us that there are many Muslims who do not "follow Qur'an (verbatim)".

Do let me know if this is not so.

Yes, but they're not considered correct Muslim by the mainstream.

budaatum:

No I don't "need to follow Qur'an (verbatim)", nor can I even if I tried since the effort would be way far beyond my human capabilities!

You need to. It is part of what makes you a Muslim. The book was revealed to be followed, not to be read and ignore. And no, you can't re-interpret beat your wife to mean another softer thing. Etc

budaatum:

No I don't "need to follow Qur'an (verbatim)", nor can I even if I tried since the effort would be way far beyond my human capabilities!

No I don't! I can be an illiterate Muslim who's never heard of an hadith!


Seriously

Can I not be a Muslim without knowing there were three generations of pious predecessors?


Who says I that God took the bother to put a brain in my head should adopt sunni Islam definition of Islam or of righteousness/piety? Are you suggesting I discard my own understanding of Islam and righteousness/piety and adopt an understanding of Islam and righteousness/piety according to the teachings of Sunni Islam?

Please tell me if you think that after I've learnt it it would not be my own understanding all the same.

Yes @bolded.

Let me try to explain briefly why I think sunni Muslim is the real Muslim (not the best though).

If God sent Muhammad to give us a book, it means we need to listen to explanation of the Qur'an from him. The explanation is in his hadith. You must study the science of hadith before you will discard them or otherwise.

Also, the first generation are with Muhammad and got the explanation directly from him. The second generation got the explanation from the first generation and so on before Islam started diverging and sect started cropping out such as Shia, khawarij, suffi, quraniyun, Ahmadiya etc.

Thus, to be a good Muslim, it is compulsory to not use your own understanding but the explanation of Muhammad as reported to us by the salafs in the hadiths. If anyone has the right of interpretation, there will be many meaning to the same verse.

Let me stop here for now.

Xmuslim:


Yes @bolded.

Let me try to explain briefly why I think sunni Muslim is the real Muslim (not the best though).

If God sent Muhammad to give us a book, it means we need to listen to explanation of the Qur'an from him. The explanation is in his hadith. You must study the science of hadith before you will discard them or otherwise.

Also, the first generation are with Muhammad and got the explanation directly from him. The second generation got the explanation from the first generation and so on before Islam started diverging and sect started cropping out such as Shia, khawarij, suffi, quraniyun, Ahmadiya etc.

Thus, to be a good Muslim, it is compulsory to not use your own understanding but the explanation of Muhammad as reported to us by the salafs in the hadiths. If anyone has the right of interpretation, there will be many meaning to the same verse.

Let me stop here for now.

I wanted to stop reading at "If God sent Muhammad to give us a book", and had to work hard to read to the end so let us clear this up once and for all please!

You might choose to believe God sent the Quran through an angel or what not but the only incontrovertible fact is there is a book, supposedly written by the Prophet Muhammed. All that other stuff you wrote is a lame attempt at brainwashing which even you are on here rebelling against and which I am telling you is not the only way to be a Muslim or read and understand the Quran!

Apart from that, God decides who a good Muslim is, and not three generations of pious Muslims nor a hadith or salaf nor even the Quran, or God would have told you to submit to those instead of Allah.

budaatum:

I wanted to stop reading at "If God sent Muhammad to give us a book", and had to work hard to read to the end so let us clear this up once and for all please!

You might choose to believe God sent the Quran through an angel or what not but the only incontrovertible fact is there is a book, supposedly written by the Prophet Muhammed. All that other stuff you wrote is a lame attempt at brainwashing which even you are on here rebelling against and which I am telling you is not the only way to be a Muslim or read and understand the Quran!

Apart from that, God decides who a good Muslim is, and not three generations of pious Muslims nor a hadith or salaf even the Quran or God would has told you to submit to those instead Allah.

You may want to read it again. My point is simple. How can we claim that we understand Qur'an more than Muhammad and his companion. That's what sunni Muslim preach.

So, to combat them, you need to prove that hadith is not directly from Muhammad. You may have to study the science of hadith to do this

Xmuslim:


You may want to read it again. My point is simple. How can we claim that we understand Qur'an more than Muhammad and his companion. That's what sunni Muslim preach.

So, to combat them, you need to prove that hadith is not directly from Muhammad. You may have to study the science of hadith to do this

No, I'm not claiming I "understand Qur'an more than Muhammad and his companion".

What I'm claiming is I might know know more or see it different to three generations of pious Muslims, and all I have to refute is their claim that they understand the Quran, but more especially, God, more than I do, and I refuse to fall for the false indoctrination that they must be between me and Allah especially when Islam itself abhors intermediaries and connects one directly to God!

budaatum:

Yes, tintingz. We are presenting our understandings, discussing, arguing, debating, hoping to reach that which Allah trully Wills with the brains that are inside of our heads.

That, is my understanding of Islam.

You didn't answer the two questions I asked.

budaatum:

Did the religion kill apostates, homosexual, adulterers, non-believers etc, or did religious people kill "apostates, homosexual, adulterers, non-believers etc", or do those distinctions not matter to you?

Religion commands Religionists to kill apostates, homosexuals, adulterers, non-believers.

You fail to recognise that society forms its religion. That people in a society come together to say, "this is our God", and will diligently pass it down to their descendents until people like you open your eyes and demand change which forms the next starting and learning point. Bluntly speaking, you are the next Prophet. You just don't see it yet.

Ok, the society came together to form religion? At what time?

Some are religious, tingtingz. Some animals will religiously return to give birth at the same waterhole at the same time every year. Elephants are known to have a graveyard. You perhaps need to pick up a Sociology or Anthropology book.

C.f. Religious behavior in animals

The article didn't show any evidence that animals are Religious, infact it says there's no evidence in the beginning of the article.

Ok let me grant this for argument sake, according to you animals and humans just evolve and started being Religious, is that your argument?

No it is not a fact! The disaster in the world was not done by religion even when religion was used to do it. You will never blame the knife for stabbing you in the back so why blame religion for what some humans do with it? Is the religion the responsible agent, and not the human.

What is a fact is humans have adopted religion as one of their tools to inflict "disasters in the world", but even still, more good than bad has come out of the reading of the Scripture itself and the human race would have been worse off without it.

Ok. No where Religion (Abrahamic) commands the adherents to kill non-believers, apostates, LGBT?

tintingz:
Religion commands Religionists to kill apostates, homosexuals, adulterers, non-believers.

No it doesn't, tingz.

It is religionists who interpret their religious book in such a way that, first, are commanded by a book since no book commands, and second, think the rest of us are so stupid and too gullible to see that they are responsible for killing apostates that they are trying to pass on to a book.

In fact, I can bet my last Naira that when anyone tells tell us their book is responsible for their killing of apostates, you and I would be there telling them not to be so stupid and to fuq off.

Xmuslim:


You need to. It is part of what makes you a Muslim. The book was revealed to be followed, not to be read and ignore. And no, you can't re-interpret beat your wife to mean another softer thing. Etc

Yes I can, Xmuslim, and Muslims do so everyday.

It is written in that same book that one should not steal but many Muslims disobey the book and steal, so why can I not disobey the book and not beat my wife?

tintingz:


You didn't answer the two questions I asked.

Yes I did. Some may read the book and think they should stupidly literally follow what may seem barbaric in it, but most obviously don't , since we know perfectly well that most Muslims do not beat their wives, for instance, or kill apostates.

tintingz:

Ok let me grant this for argument sake, according to you animals and humans just evolve and started being Religious, is that your argument?

Religion is developed in a society over time by the people in that society. Even the religions that we practise in Nigeria have developed within our own cultural setting over time. A Muslim in UK, for instance, would have a hard time agreeing with a Muslim in Nigeria when it comes to what to do with homosexuals. Even UK Christians disagree with Nigerian ones on the subject.

By the way, it is belief in Gods in animals that there is no evidence for, but religion is way more than a belief, and the articles shows that animals practise them.

Thus, if by religion one means a "non-anthropocentric, non-anthropomorphic, non-theistic, and non-logocentric trans-species prototype definition of religion", ritual behaviour can be interpreted in the actions of chimpanzees, elephants, dolphins and other animals.

tintingz:
Ok. No where Religion (Abrahamic) commands the adherents to kill non-believers, apostates, LGBT?

Absolutely no where. Unless you are the brainless sort who stupidly just does what they read in a book without seeking understanding. And if they are that sort, you should wonder why they steal or tell lies since it is written in their religious book that they must not lie or steal.