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Java Has Failed! by africanboy(m): 6:05pm On Feb 01, 2006
I read a comment in a post about Java. I didn't read it completely because I am STRONGLY anti-Java.

As far as I am concerned, JAVA has failed. It started with a hype - Write Once, Run Anywhere. Has anyone done that? I don't think so. One good thing, JAVa opened our eyes to a concept which was right under our noses: use a platform specific engine while the high level language can be written in well - high level. The code is translated to a intermediate form which is run.

.NET from Microsoft uses the same principle, so is RunRev (from http://runrev.com).

A friend of mine wanted to convert me to Java, giving me theory, history and other .... I stopped withone simple question "Which JAVA program have you written that runs on Windows (all variants), Linux, Unix, Mac, Solaris, OS2, Symbian, Palm"

Java programmers in the house, eat my head off.

(More on this on my blog)
Re: Java Has Failed! by Zule(m): 8:01pm On Feb 01, 2006
I read a comment in a post http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-3402.0.html about java. I didnt read it completely because I am STRONGLY anti-Java.

As far as I am concerned, JAVA has failed. It started with a hype - Write Once, Run Anywhere. Has anyone done that? I don't think so. One good thing, JAVa opened our eyes to a concept which was right under our noses: use a platform specific engine while the high level language can be written in well - high level. The code is translated to a intermediate form which is run.

.NET from Microsoft uses the same principle, so is RunRev (from http://runrev.com.

A friend of mine wanted to convert me to Java, giving me theory, history and other .... I stopped withone simple question "Which JAVA program have you written that runs on Windows (all variants), Linux, Unix, Mac, Solaris, OS2, Symbian, Palm"

I wanted to ask the same question cos since i i knew about java i haven't been able to test the program i dowloaded without the system displaying some funny error message
Re: Java Has Failed! by c0dec(m): 8:03pm On Feb 01, 2006
guy ... there are plenty multi-platform java apps out there.
Re: Java Has Failed! by Zule(m): 8:05pm On Feb 01, 2006
codec
guy ... there are plenty multi-platform java apps out there.
How many of them have u tested and it worked. tell me and i will confirm
Re: Java Has Failed! by africanboy(m): 8:09pm On Feb 01, 2006
i am not denying their existence, but usually there has to be some form of code re-writing by the code author to ensure it works. i visit sourceforge regularly but still very disappointed in the java apps i see there.

i have to download a 130mb SDK just to run the program. just cant be convinced about java.
Re: Java Has Failed! by axeprince(m): 2:51am On Feb 02, 2006
africanboy:

I read a comment in a post about Java. I didn't read it completely because I am STRONGLY anti-Java.

As far as I am concerned, JAVA has failed. It started with a hype - Write Once, Run Anywhere. Has anyone done that? I don't think so. One good thing, JAVa opened our eyes to a concept which was right under our noses: use a platform specific engine while the high level language can be written in well - high level. The code is translated to a intermediate form which is run.

.NET from Microsoft uses the same principle, so is RunRev (from http://runrev.com).

A friend of mine wanted to convert me to Java, giving me theory, history and other .... I stopped withone simple question "Which JAVA program have you written that runs on Windows (all variants), Linux, Unix, Mac, Solaris, OS2, Symbian, Palm"

Java programmers in the house, eat my head off.

(More on this on my blog)

My initial reaction was to start rattling and countering, but on the other hand, let me start by asking you
1)."what language do you use?"
2).Can you give examples of your present works?
3).What errand do you want to send Java that the "guy" has refused?

Maybe if you can answer these questions, I might be able to help you, but that Java has failed? Common go back to sleep smiley
Re: Java Has Failed! by charlisco(m): 8:46am On Feb 02, 2006
I donot know how to write a programme, but i used java script, i mean the one that has me made already and they work fine for me. up till now i still used java script because i found it simple to use.
I think Java is still alive!
Re: Java Has Failed! by africanboy(m): 8:50am On Feb 02, 2006
I posted an example of an application i did on this thread.

I primarily use VB and ASP. Working on .NET platform. View this thread
Re: Java Has Failed! by africanboy(m): 8:56am On Feb 02, 2006
@charlie - i'm not beefing against js, i love js even though i cant really write it. without JS, AJAX is nothing, but AJAX is not dependent of the "powers" of JAVA.

Javascript is the future, JAVA just isnt.
Re: Java Has Failed! by charlisco(m): 9:41am On Feb 02, 2006
So where has java failed you?
Re: Java Has Failed! by joftech(m): 10:52am On Feb 02, 2006
Africanboy it's as if you were reading my mind on this issue. I was about to start a thread[b] (Is JAVA dead?)[/b] when i saw this thread on the frontpage.

JAVA has really failed. Now they have J2EE, JAVA Card, Java this, JAVA that. It's performance did not match it's hype hence the horrible flop. It's development is even a part, using classes and all those AWT and widgets, they can really be a pain in the Bottom. Even the final interface you get are not OK at all, they look like something from old mosix window system.

JAVA death was even affirmed the day M$ stop supporting JVM on Windows XP >, now to run JAVA program you need to go and download a 64MB or so file, that's scary.

For me (although i don't use JAVA, but i know the basics of using it), JAVA is just a marketing ploy for a company (SUN) that's dying.

To date the only JAVA program i have used with some satisfaction is the Yahoo pool game, and at times it sucks.



I donot know how to write a programme, but i used java script, i mean the one that has me made already and they work fine for me. up till now i still used java script because i found it simple to use.
I think Java is still alive!

Javascript is not JAVA, Javascript is for clientside scripting while JAVA is a programming language, don't let the name confuse you.
Re: Java Has Failed! by Farriel(m): 11:16am On Feb 02, 2006
Indeed, JavaScript and Java are not one and the same. A lot of people are confused about this.

On to Java being dead, I actually don't think so. Yes, Sun is fast approaching its twilight zone and are really aiming to increasing revenue but Java beind dead or failing is not entirely correct.

I've got some programmer guys here in PH and most of 'em are Java guys. They are deploying very mean apps and not complaining at all about how Java works.

In fact, over 70% of all the programmers I know here in PH use Java. I don't know how it's failed you, Africanboy. Maybe it not being able to run on a different platform (to you, that is), but I think Java is one language that has redefined interoperability of programs. It's certainly most people's favourite language, but perhaps just doesn't work for you, don't you think so?
Re: Java Has Failed! by joftech(m): 11:31am On Feb 02, 2006
LAMP is the way to go.

Linux has made this possible. Even in the setup boxes area where JAVA hoped to have a niche market, Linux rules.
Re: Java Has Failed! by c0dec(m): 12:48pm On Feb 02, 2006
LAMP is only specific to web/network development. Java is into domains LAMP can't touch. not that i'm a Java fan or anyting. anyhoo, in these other domains, C-sharp is blowing Java away.
Re: Java Has Failed! by demmy(m): 4:20pm On Feb 02, 2006
I think what has failed are java applets, those javascript like client side programs and not JAVA. Many software and games are being written in JAVA, even for mobile devices.
Re: Java Has Failed! by c0dec(m): 4:30pm On Feb 02, 2006
right on the money. all the java games we play on the different mobile hardware, different OSes is an example of java's cross-platform ability.

any yes, javascript is not java. i even read somewhere that they are not even related by any means.
Re: Java Has Failed! by demmy(m): 4:50pm On Feb 02, 2006
Of course javascript is not java. Javascript was originally called Livescript by Netscape its developer, but renamed it because the name java seemed cool at the time.
Re: Java Has Failed! by sbucareer(f): 6:32pm On Feb 02, 2006

Sorry I have to write this comment after reading few entries.  Hmm, africanboy you are seriously looking for my trouble.  grin  Well I do not need to lecture people here on the evolution of JAVA as many people here are IT professionals.  Java was the solution to C++ shortcomings.

You talk of applications that runs on JAVA?  Well most of the mobile application i.e. games and simulation standalone application today are power by JAVA.  Visit Jscope.com read what they do and click on their clients.

Java has gone very far compare to any program language define today.  You have learn how to program php and you think you are a programmer, well to an extend.  Programming is half the skill needed to become Software Engineer.  PHP provides you all the routine and libraries to build application very fast and you jump up and down claiming you are a programmer.

Well, to program a software system is to think analytical, which php has taken away from you.  Java provide generic API/routine that allows you to build a very proprietary software.  Above all, Java produces Enterprise Server application.  I know you would NOT understand Enterprise Level System.  Try and learn CORBA this is when software development was still in low level communication.

Java has design many suits of application server that enables Enterprise System Communication.  It is called distributed application system. 
Read this, I know the article is a bit old but the message it clear .NET vs JAVA .  Please try and visit Sun Microsystem the company that develops all java technologies.  They even have their own OS (operating System) Solaris and they build wonderful servers

Re: Java Has Failed! by joftech(m): 7:37pm On Feb 02, 2006
C++ shortcomings ke. JAVA can never rival C++ anyday, anytime.

JAVA even borrowed some aspects of C++.
Re: Java Has Failed! by sbucareer(f): 7:52pm On Feb 02, 2006

As humans beings are descendant from our ancestors so does programming language.  C/C++ has shortcomings.  It is very low level.  It is used in writing kernel and memory management and hardware instruction NOT good for programming application software let alone web application.  Not that it cannot be use.

In my believe, anything that comes out of something it alway better to what is was before.   Like humans when they have child(ren) they tend to be more beautiful/handsome to their parents, that is what we call evolution.

Java is the evolution of C++.  Why don't you program in assemble language then?  Or do you think C/C++ is better to assemble Language?

Even C++ was the descendant of C and it was primarily used for Unix programming.  C originated in 1973 has required as little change as this one has in thirty years of heavy use is truly remarkable, and without parallels anywhere else in computer science or engineering.  If you care to know the unix kernel was build/design and implemented in C.  You have to enlighten yourself more we are going into another phase of programming called Aspect Programming.  We are moving off high level languages like Java/C++/C#/J#/VIsual Basic etc to Aspect Programming.  You seriously need to spend time to read on new technologies  embarassed embarassed

Definition of kernel
Re: Java Has Failed! by joftech(m): 8:12pm On Feb 02, 2006
Companies like amazon.com etc use C and C++ for their backend.

The ultimate goal of any developer must be to use C or C++.
Re: Java Has Failed! by sbucareer(f): 8:17pm On Feb 02, 2006

And HOW abego!! do you come across this information that amazon uses C and C++ for their backend system?  Do you work for amazon?  It is always a secret for companies to hind their middleware and backend technologies.  You can only know their frontend, but others, wow!!!  You are a genius to figure that out.

Re: Java Has Failed! by joftech(m): 9:23pm On Feb 02, 2006
And HOW abego!! do you come across this information that amazon uses C and C++ for their backend system? Do you work for amazon? It is always a secret for companies to hind their middleware and backend technologies. You can only know their frontend, but others, wow!!! You are a genius to figure that out.



Getting those infos is no rocket science. I will give you the link to that info when i find it, ( i deleted my FF bookmark yesterday)

I want you to read these first,
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/phps-creator-rasmus-lerdorf/2
http://web.oreilly.com/news/lerdorf_0200.html
http://www.oracle.com/technology/pub/articles/php_experts/rasmus_php.html
http://public.yahoo.com/~radwin/talks/yahoo-phpcon2002.htm
Re: Java Has Failed! by dejiolowe(m): 8:47am On Feb 03, 2006
Java is just too hard (or am too dumb). It serves no absolute sense to go thru a difficult route just to achieve something small.

i think microsoft with .NET could kill java over time.

but for me, server side = coldfusion
clientside = hta/htc
client-server connection = ajax, webservices
Re: Java Has Failed! by africanboy(m): 9:47am On Feb 03, 2006
@sbucareer, first and foremost, java might try to seem like nice programming language, i use nokia 6600 and have a couple of java games on them, but i when i bored and need games to play on my phone, they would be the last i would touch. symbian sis games are just better with better graphics.

java applications on the PC, nah, not interested. i started using the PC in 1999 and got exposed to some win3.1 for workgroup. java apps remind of just that. why would i want to use an application that loks like that.

java is not an evolution of c++, concepts differ entirely, in my opinion.

i want to write a simple program in java and i must code the interface like i were use turbo C in DOS. no thanks.
i know there are GUI builders - jbuilder etc, but even their interface is not as conducive the "visual studio" anybody agree?

case sensitivity in coding kills me. period.

with the current trend of software as services, how does java hope to catch up, will every1 have to download a 130mb SDK to compile a source code. maybe not.

jscope should probably be renamed to jnetscope or something similar.

i think joftech meant CGI or something similar.
Re: Java Has Failed! by sbucareer(f): 11:27am On Feb 03, 2006
"africanboy":

java is not an evolution of c++, concepts differ entirely, in my opinion.

Read this [url=http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~wwwbtb/book/chap1/java_hist.html]link[/url], make sure you read it to the end.

"africanboy":

i want to write a simple program in java and i must code the interface like i were use turbo C in DOS. no thanks.
i know there are GUI builders - jbuilder etc, but even their interface is not as conducive the "visual studio" anybody agree?

Java has many programming applicability.  You can code a GUI, standalone, Network application, distributed application, graphics application, web application, mobile application, satellite application the list goes on and on.   I don't know where you are learning your java to code a simple java say hello world this is all it takes.

[glow=pink,100,50]

import java.io.*;

public class HelloWorld{
  public static void main (String args[]){
         System.out.print("Hello World"wink;
   }
}

[/glow]

I do not see any GUI API in here.  For GUI application you'd import AWT (Abstract Window ToolKit). java.io. is the package that java put its basic input/output routine hence io.

"africanboy":

case sensitivity in coding kills me. period.

I understand your frustration with sensitivity in coding programs.  If you have ever involved in big software development project, where GUI department is different, Networking developer is different dept., in fact to put it more professional, if you have ever invloved in N-tier application development, you'd understand why case sensitive is very important. 

The Software Engineers would not tolerate each dept. with shaddy coding and none Java recommended naming convention


"africanboy":

with the current trend of software as services, how does java hope to catch up, will everyone have to download a 130mb SDK to compile a source code. maybe not.

Java is NOT a script language like PHP/ASP,  it is a full application development tool.  So 130mb is for a full java API's and IDE for developing Java application.  If you want java script language you can download Servlet.jar and Jsp.jar, put it in you classpath and of you go with all your web application development.

Listen, you really need to enlighten up, I do not come here to argue blindly, I want to share knowledge with professional NOT jerks.
Re: Java Has Failed! by mochafella(m): 11:46am On Feb 03, 2006
africanboy:

symbian sis games are just better with better graphics.
java applications on the PC, nah, not interested. i started using the PC in 1999 and got exposed to some win3.1 for workgroup. java apps remind of just that. why would i want to use an application that loks like that.
Yes I agree Java's gui/graphics issues are well known. It has to do with the way the language was designed to avoid relying on facilities of the native PC i.e. win32, *nix, apple/bsd, symbian. Native guis rely on the native api calls alot. Jv uses a default look-and-feel instead. It is very ugly, very very. There are native look-and-feels but the developer has to activate it in his code. They look much better.

africanboy:

java is not an evolution of c++, concepts differ entirely, in my opinion.
The concepts do differ and Jv was not meant to replace C++, however Jv did attempt to learn from the "issues" with C++, bounds checking, runaway pointers etc. Jv still has runaway "pointer" issues though.

africanboy:

i want to write a simple program in java and i must code the interface like i were use turbo C in DOS. no thanks.
i know there are GUI builders - jbuilder etc, but even their interface is not as conducive the "visual studio" anybody agree?
Come on, lets not blame the failure of the IDE to provide you an environment you are comfortable with, on the language you develop with the IDE.

africanboy:

case sensitivity in coding kills me. period.
Case sensitivity is for your(human) benefit. Trust me. Let me explain, how would you like to read/maintain code that has a single variable/field referred to as VAR,Var,vAR,VAr in different places, all because the original developer misspelled. You probably know by now that naming conventions are a good thing, especially when you are dealing with tens/hundreds of thousands of lines in a codebase. And don't get me started on Hungarian notation or what ever MS uses now.

africanboy:

with the current trend of software as services, how does java hope to catch up, will everyone have to download a 130mb SDK to compile a source code. maybe not.
Lets remember that no language is a catch-all. Java was not designed with that in mind, not even the grand-daddies C&C++ will handle that gracefully. Besides why download and compile/interpret when you can have AJAX achieve a similar purpose, and guess what a bunch of the server side apps will be running. That's right Java. Besides how is an app SaaS if you are compiling. It means I already have the executable. Its no longer a service, besides if a user does not want to install apps(hence the reason for SaaS) why will they want to compile them instead.

Your contention that users will not download a runtime engine to run Java apps is only an issue because the guys in Redmond(Microsoft) no longer provide a VM on their boxes. Guess what, it's a one-time download. If the user browses the web, they will eventually need a VM to run the applets they will encounter. Most MS users are already used to multiple downloads, except if you do not patch your box against viruses.

Final point it is definitely extreme to say Java has failed. If it has failed it will disappear from the market rapidly. What happened to the language ADA despite all the money the US DoD pumped into it. Going as far as forcing their contractors to use it. It disappeared. It is only if the same fate befalls Jv that you can conclude it has failed. Barring that hold your fire.
Re: Java Has Failed! by sbucareer(f): 11:50am On Feb 03, 2006
"mochafella":

VAR,Var,vAR,VAr in different places

Please tell them ooo!!! embarassed embarassed embarassed
Re: Java Has Failed! by africanboy(m): 11:52am On Feb 03, 2006
As much I dont appreciate being called a JERK, I will just ignore that.

the major promise of JAVA (which brought about all the hype), like I said is write once, run anywhere but that only seems true for codes like

import java.io.*;

public class HelloWorld{
 public static void main (String args[]){
        System.out.print("Hello World"wink;
  }
}

i dont have any client who would want console applications for their business processes, which means I have to build a GUI, and I must match what Microsoft is offering with Windows XP et al...

from your article
Oak would have to be completely platform independent, and function seamlessly regardless of the type of CPU in the device. For this reason, Oak was designed to be an interpreted language, since it would be practically impossible for a complied version to run on all available platforms
Re: Java Has Failed! by africanboy(m): 12:01pm On Feb 03, 2006
I wanted to go into JAVA some years after all the hype, I actually (like i said in my initiating thread) had someone try to force it down my throat. I appreciate the concepts brought about by Java (that has helped other developers bring us better products), but it just doesnt cut it with me.

Send me a "GOOD" GUI/IDE tool, and SDK and I will try it again even just for the sake of proving why it should be buried.

Java was an idea light years ahead of its time, but unfortunately it was not properly managed. From the hype, it seemed people would not rest until every electrical applicance had java programmes running on them.

As at now I am confortable using the tools I use
PC - VB, .NET, C, Delphi
Web - ASP, PHP,
Mobile - AppForge (for Symbian and Windows Mobile)
some others...
Re: Java Has Failed! by sbucareer(f): 12:08pm On Feb 03, 2006

@AfricanBoy try these IDE.  We use it in my company.  Believe me my company is big Software giant in the UK.

1. Eclipse  Developed by IBM (International Business Machine)
2. Netbeans Popular among Sun download for Java JVM

Both of them have HTTP server built into them.  But then off-course you can opt out when installing.  It can be configured with any DB, webserver i.e. Apapche, websphere, BEA, J2EE etc.

Sorry africanboy I really do NOT called you a jerk, it was a way of relieving my stress.  Sometime we all are jerks.  I know sometime I am completely jerk, but don't hold it against me.  I know you are pro in what you do and I respect that.  Just that I personally feel bad when people look down on java whilst java has been serving the world since it inception.

Re: Java Has Failed! by mochafella(m): 12:24pm On Feb 03, 2006
Can I ask if your issues with "Write once, Run anywhere" were related to development for Cellphones?

africanboy:

Send me a "GOOD" GUI/IDE tool, and SDK and I will try it again even just for the sake of proving why it should be buried.
Most of my work is not on gui's or user interaction, so I tend to build the few gui's I develop from scratch. i.e no Visual stuff. I also never trusted the IDE to optimize it properly. The IDE I use is very popular and free. I also use it to handle my C++ development http://www.eclipse.org/. You probably already know it. I don't beleive it handles visual dev though, I'm not sure.

But why should an IDE play a major role in your language choice. That is wrong if it does. I understand having good development tools but making the IDE a major part of design decisions is wrong.

africanboy:

Java was an idea light years ahead of its time, but unfortunately it was not properly managed. From the hype, it seemed people would not rest until every electrical applicance had java programmes running on them.
Well using Jv inappropriately is wrong. Its like using C/asm for a user app. Doable but wrong. Its meant for low-level systems development. The issues that Jv has with WORA, are the same ones any language that attempts to the do the same will run into. I beleive it is a little presumptious to assert that it was improperly managed.

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