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Java Has Failed! - Programming (1) - Nairaland

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Re: Java Has Failed! by mochafella(m): 12:26pm On Feb 03, 2006
sbucareer:

@AfricanBoy try these IDE. We use it in my company. Believe me my company is big Software giant in the UK.

1. Eclipse Developed by IBM (International Business Machine)
2. Netbeans Popular among Sun download for Java JVM


Seems like sbucarreer stole my thunder smiley
Re: Java Has Failed! by sbucareer(f): 12:43pm On Feb 03, 2006

This is how java works in write once run anywhere?  Java has it JVM in virtually every machine architecture i.e.  X86, DEC Alpha, AMD64, MIPS, SPARC, PowerPC/IBM POWER, etc.  Java lives in all these architecture and has SDK (Standard Development Kit) written for virtually every platform.

How, because sun has achieved this position they decided that it would be good idea to have an instruction-set to translate the byte-code into any native platform where JVM runs.  If you have written your code say in x86 architecture on Win32 platform and compile a successful java class into a byte-code and save it into a floppy for example.  You can take that floppy to another architecture say SPARC running on Solaris platform and ask the JVM to help you translate the byte code into native instruction-set and execute the result for you without having to rewrite the code again in Solaris.

This is a huge advantage if you are writing a big application development and all of a sudden you need to port it into another environment because business requirement changes.  Believe me it saves £billions to the company.  Know that the customers are always right and can choose not to do business again with an organisation if their requirements is not meet.

No other languages I know have the same power.  Win32 environment compiles all its code into exe file (executable fil).  You cannot run a exe file in any other platform apart from win23.  Mr Microsoft is not allowing open source and most of their technologies ONLY runs in win32.

Understand that every OS has their very own way to translate the instruction the kernel gets from the application section of the entire kernel.  The wonderful thing about OS is the way they translate instruction from the application layer and how they present that instruction to the hardware.

For example, I have written an application for a Bank.  It involves all the possible operations a bank can perform.  Both the online application through to business function.  I decided to host it on J2EE server because my application is written in Java.  The company realise that J2EE is very expensive and another company is offering cheaper licence for Java Enterprise Edition solution, now we decide to move to the cheaper one say BEA all I need it to take ONLY one file called EAR ([b]E[/b]nterprise [b]Ar[/b]chive) or in some cases WAR (Web Archive), just banking.ear to another server and click deploy that is it.  Isn’t that good.  We do not need to rewrite all the code again in that platform and compile it
Re: Java Has Failed! by demmy(m): 4:38pm On Feb 03, 2006
It is still this same 'write once run anywhere' feature that makes Java slower than C++. The byte-code is only an interpreted pseudo-code when deployed and still need to be compiled before it is run.
Re: Java Has Failed! by c0dec(m): 1:16am On Feb 04, 2006
and this is where C# comes in. a much faster java-like language
Re: Java Has Failed! by pojutime(m): 3:20pm On Feb 04, 2006
Hi Y'all,

Well said. You guys have said a lotta stuff and instead of making points, you've suddeeded in confusing me the more. But what advice do you have for newbies wanting to get into Programming?

Thanks.
Re: Java Has Failed! by africanboy(m): 3:31pm On Feb 04, 2006
@poju, its all a matter of choice, i wouldnt advise anybody saying you must a particular language, @ least, i wont do that. pick a language, search the web, read book and pick one that you can work with.

there is not point studying linux languages if your clients work primarily with windows

@javaprogrammmers, is there any linux distro with a java virtual machine (not necessarily called that), or do your clients have to get the VM first.

considering that the essence of java is platform independence, i believe the .NEt framework is aiming for that,
before you lecture me on bugs and security flaws, i believe MS software is being attacked largely because it has a wide base. just think, if you had a virus that travels by "soft drinks", which of the following would you rather write the code for -
[list]
[li]coca-cola[/li]
[li]la casera[/li]
[li]any other bottled drink that is only drunk within a community[/li]
[/list]

NO dont tell me, i know - you would pick Coca Cola, why? it has a large distribution has compared to the otrhers mentioned. but now viri/worm wirters are shiftig attention to lesser known programs like CorelDRAW (do you know coreldraw has its own version of the VBA?). they are even attacking "anti-virus software"

still have part of my head left for your biting off
Re: Java Has Failed! by c0dec(m): 7:16pm On Feb 04, 2006
@poju: i'd advise u start with Java, then C#.

@africanboy: i don't see anything wrong with getting familiar with linux. it's gaining ground afterall. and yes, there are distros that have the JVM bundled with them. mandrake and suse i'm sure of.

and nobody is attacking the .NET. microsoft just has some poor programmers.
Re: Java Has Failed! by joftech(m): 8:36pm On Feb 04, 2006
Hi Y'all,

Well said. You guys have said a lotta stuff and instead of making points, you've suddeeded in confusing me the more. But what advice do you have for newbies wanting to get into Programming?

Thanks.

Learn the basics of programming. Know what happen behind the scene, that way you will be able to take on any language.
Re: Java Has Failed! by mochafella(m): 8:47pm On Feb 04, 2006
@ poju

like joftech said learn the basics, decide which area interests you more. typically, systems dev, application dev, web dev e.t.c Read more on that area and pick and learn the languages that more popular in that field to start with. Then you can expand. Like anythingelse it mostly depends on how much effort you want to put into it.

@ africanboy

Fedora core 4 also comes with a VM. I believe you can choose not to install it though during setup. I do agree with you partly on the viruses. Linux's and Mac's purported security derives partially from their smaller market share. They do have a better/restrictive security model than windows though.
Re: Java Has Failed! by joftech(m): 8:56pm On Feb 04, 2006
Another thing that make Linux secure is that the kernel is detached from the apps. If a rogue app go down it won't bring everthing down. From the ground up Linux was designed to be secure. But Windows has some legacy codes that are still ruining the show till 2morow.

@Poju i will recommend that you start with Basic.
Re: Java Has Failed! by pojutime(m): 3:19pm On Feb 05, 2006
Thanx guys. I think I'll just try and learn as much as I can basically around what interests me. But do u think Java is too hard?
Re: Java Has Failed! by sbucareer(f): 6:23pm On Feb 05, 2006
I just taught I showed everyone on this thread how Java and Enterprise Architecture works.  If you have this architecture build into a programming language, tell me what on earth a programmer with this can't achieve?

See Java used with MVC Model

Re: Java Has Failed! by joftech(m): 8:32pm On Feb 05, 2006
Thanx guys. I think I'll just try and learn as much as I can basically around what interests me. But do u think Java is too hard?

JAVA is damn hard to learn. The learning curve ain't worth it.
Re: Java Has Failed! by sbucareer(f): 12:35am On Feb 06, 2006

@joftech, say for yourself.  Everybody has different learning capabilities.  What do you mean that "ain't worth it"? This is just one of the most popular UK online job agency job serve. Type java and tell us their salary and type php and tell us their salary.  Java programmers can earn up £100k per annum in UK and more in the US, I don't think PHP programmers ever pass £25k

Do some research.  Java is the hardest language, yes! but to you.  For me and a whole lot more people, it is the easiest.  Try programming C/C++ you'd know why Java commands respect.  Don't even talk about PHP, a script language for crying out loud.

PHP is heavily un-typed language i.e. variables are unknown type, in PHP any variable can be assign any value at anytime.  It is very dangerous and can lead to memory licks hence introduce bugs and hacker can use it vulnerability to wreck havoc.

Enough of this lecture, but know that you hate Java today because you cannot understand it.  I know in your mind you wish you'd learn this bloody language.

If you are interested in learning Java start here, I think online tutorials would not do you any good as you hate java with passion.

Java Achievements

1. Java in Space
2. Java on Navigation
3. Java in automobile

The list goes on, just do java achievements in google.

Re: Java Has Failed! by dejiolowe(m): 7:47am On Feb 06, 2006
@subcareer dont feeling smart. java is hard and everyone knows. why must i know java for java sake? unless u dont want to face reality, MS will trounce java one day.

a php programmer might be cheap but from the enterprise point of view, who wants to spend 100K on a silly java programmer? java interface are so crass. duh!
Re: Java Has Failed! by joftech(m): 9:13am On Feb 06, 2006
@sbucareer, it's true i tried learning Java once and i have to backoff with immediate alacrity. I learn most programming languages that i know myself without taking any lecture(s), just learning on my own. Despite having some C++ background i still find it damn difficult to get the damn thing into my head. I gave the texts i was using to a friend, he abandoned learning it too.

Maybe if am able to get someone to sit me down all month long my brain will be receptive to Java's gospel. I don't know why a simple reading can't get it into my head despite the fact that i learnt VB, PHP, CF and even C++ by simply reading. Or is it that am dumb? shocked shocked shocked

MS will trounce java one day.

MS has already done away with it. They did not remove that JVM in XP without a motive.
Re: Java Has Failed! by dejiolowe(m): 11:04am On Feb 06, 2006
u know what, java guys like feeling like genius. oh sexy, they v learnt and master a difficult language. who cares? how many genius are running the world? who cares if u r smart and u cant deliver? mess java.
Re: Java Has Failed! by Fdeveloper(m): 12:57pm On Feb 06, 2006
In my opinion, constructive criticism of a programming language should revolve around memory requirements, garbage collection (or the lack of it), flexibility in terms of target platforms, ease of debugging etc. It is important as has been mentioned in this thread on a number of occasions, to clearly understand the difference between java and java script before making blanket assertions.

My advice to the newbie would be to learn the basic principles of programming which apply to all languages first and then explore several languages. In my experience good programmers are confortable working in 2 or 3 languages and are aware of the advantages and disadvantages of each one as it is almost always the case that no single programming language is ideal for all situations.
Re: Java Has Failed! by sbucareer(f): 1:37pm On Feb 06, 2006

Sorry boys if I am imposing on you developers to learn Java.  Strictly rule is, I am not.  Fdeveloper thanks for you contribution.  These are the sort of people I need in this thread.  Talking and discussing issue relating to software development NOT really programming.

I would like to say, if I teach you java you'd been glad you meet me.  Java is the easiest language.  The only thing with Java is that, since it is for developing complex software, you do not need to think like a programmer you have to think like a developer.

Like Fdevelooer rightly said, we ought to start thinking of the language capabilities like memory management, garbage collection, cross-platform, how JVM interact with OS, securities issues Java has etc, like I said at the beginning of the thread when people attacked me and push my contribution to answering personal concern about how Java is "ain't worth it".

Moderator, please if you can open a topic or thread for "Learning Java".  It is NOT used in Nigeria because there are no Java programmers and I can see why, with all this attitude to Java in Nairaland.

Believe me, if you can learn Java which I believe is easier to C/C++, learning C/C++ would be just easy and straight forward, trust me on this.  The case is vise versa, if you know C/C++ java is nothing to you.  C/C++ is the lowest level language nearer to machine code or assembler.  Down fall of C/C++ it is not portable, and heavily platform dependent.


"joftech":

MS has already done away with it. They did not remove that JVM in XP without a motive.

MS NEVER had JVM in any OS they build.  Instead JVM is downloaded as plugin into browser.  MS used to have VM (Microsoft Virtual Machine) they stopped it because they could not compete with Java on web application in those days.  Remember good old Applet, codebase web application that ran on JVM.  If you ask me Java was devloped for web application, but they became stronger and move onto environment development,  remember today that one of the most popular OS, solaris was developed from ground up with Java.  Java became strong and stronger other areas of development was researched and build.  Like SOAP, SAX, JAXP, WSDP,AWT,Servlet,JSP,JDOM, JAXP, JAX-RCP, JAX-WSA, SAAJ,JAX-WS, EJB, JMobile and lots more.  There strength seem to increase everyday.

Re: Java Has Failed! by c0dec(m): 10:38pm On Feb 06, 2006
yep, sbucareer's right. C++ is much more harder than Java. Java isn't hard. It's understanding OOP - thats the problem.
Re: Java Has Failed! by demmy(m): 9:48am On Feb 07, 2006
It surprise me too o, how can you easily learn C++ and still have difficulty with Java which is like little step brother to C++.
Re: Java Has Failed! by ndewo: 11:01am On Feb 08, 2006
JAVA is Bullshit. Java programmers are suffer suffer programmers. VS.NET is the WAY for LIFE.
Re: Java Has Failed! by Viper(m): 11:14am On Feb 08, 2006
sbucareer i am glad u're a java person too.
would like to have a one 2 one conversation with u.

@bill gates kids
see eehn!! I am in naija and i know VB and C# solutions are dying by the day.
Java is taking over in different companies and institutions.
Univeristies and even near future banking and payment solutions.
the thing is, java is far easier than c++ and VB anytime anyday. The only reason u feel its easier than java is because u write with the AID of an IDE environment where everything is given to u on a platter.
wrote a bit of c# which of course microsoft stole from suns java COMPLETELY(just changed 2 upper cases), and i appreciated java more.
do u know how much space a piece of "hello world" code in c# or VB  takes on the hard disk?
how difficult it is for u as a developer to deploy ur MS programs cross platformly?
C++ is a bad asssss language anytime anyday, i agree, but java rules.
it started ruling on the web, took over enterprise and standalone apps, mobile platform rules on java thesedays.......its like a sin for ur mobile phone not to be java enabled thesedays grin(as its even stated as part of most phones features), also the smartcard environment is being swallowed by java too.

see guys, java is everywhere,the thing is just to master the one u know and use it to make a difference in ur environment .
but i will advice anybody who wants a future to roll into any platform he sees interesting on java.
its like a world of its own.
as for highest paid job spaces...........i think C programmers still earn highest followed by java developers.

my opinion. cool

@sbucareer
lets talk privately.......though cant see the "private messages" button anywhere
Re: Java Has Failed! by sbucareer(f): 12:54pm On Feb 08, 2006

@Viper, thanks for that analysis.  Do you know that MS has stopped supporting VB?  Every company that uses VB solution is encourage to move to .NET. Reference,


The only reason u feel its easier than java is because u write with the AID of an IDE environment where everything is given to u on a platter.

Viper, I started programming at the age of 12, immediately I left school.  It was on Nintendo platform, a game called logic it ran on QBasic.  Generally it allows you to change colors, font size, background and add images from image library.  Then I did not know I was programming.  It soon became evident in our house that I spent far too much time on games.

The first programming I learned, if you would called it programming was HTML, it took my 2 weeks to learn fully fledge HTML without IDE.  Then it as around 1992, I don't think there was any IDE available. 

My first real programming language was Modula2, we were given assignment on to develop a game of convergence, where two player converge and a winner is given two points.  Believe me I only attended one lecture on this unit, the lecturer gave us this assignment claiming we should go and do research.  It was around 1994, I don't think we had any IDE.

Now my second language was COBOL, our lecturer had taught it would be nice if we can program Business application because that is what COBOL was good at, it was around 1995.

Furthermore, my third language was C++, we used it to learn sockets, and network communication and client/server request/response.  It was fun because I'd understand it very well.  One of my unit I scored 100% in UK, In my house I have that assignment enlarged in a frame, it was around 1996, now we have started seeing advances in technology, IDE everywhere, proprietary ones and onces shipped with software.

My fourth language was Java, I used it for my MSc project. I did MSc. satellite communication and space systems for two years. Boy oboy, as soon as the semester started and we were introducted to java, I knew straigt away that it is now I started studying in London.  We were not taught java as one of the prerequisite of doing the course is knowledge of any program language.

Straight away we were given assignment on enterprise application development.  I spent 4 weeks on that unit for like 6hrs a day and believe me when I tell you my assignment was unique in my class.  I did not use any IDE. 

Up to today I don't like IDE, they do not give you controls,  all the controls are there for you.  But, if you want good application u need to read lines of code.  Because I was taught how to code by hand at school, it became difficult to understand IDE for me.  Ask any graduates from 1990-2000. If it was a plagiarism to submit programming assignment done with the aid of IDE?  The answer you get it YES
Re: Java Has Failed! by Viper(m): 3:22pm On Feb 08, 2006
sbu man

u've come a long way
and i like ur style of coding, similar 2 mine.

we should really get to talk.
Re: Java Has Failed! by c0dec(m): 7:44pm On Feb 08, 2006
oh is this a programming history thread now?

ok. i started programming at the age of 14 grin
Re: Java Has Failed! by nprime(m): 12:48am On Feb 09, 2006
I learned Java in an Object Oriented (OO) programming course I took in my 2nd year of University. It was challenging to learn some OO principles, but after the initial hurdle I found Java to be quite simple, actually. In my opinion, compared to C++ Java is much easier to program in, but with ease of use you do sacrifice some performance. It all depends on what task you want to achieve; there are lots of different programming languages, each optimized for specific problem domains.
Re: Java Has Failed! by sbucareer(f): 1:15am On Feb 09, 2006
I agree with nprime, believe me when you come to the UK you will be forced to learn C/C++ or java.  You buy Evening Standard all you see is Java this Java that. 

Let me actually say the truth, I was forced to learn java.  All the tops jobs that was going out there was java or C/C++. So I decided to settle for java.  If you want to learn C/C++ here is a free compiler from [url=http://community.borland.com/article/0,1410,20633,00.html]Borland[/url].
Programmers File Editor
is a good IDE for C/C++ or other language


I used this shareware IDE to teach students in my part-time job.  Sorry did I forget to tell you that I am a teacher as well.

Download Borland C++ Compiler version 5.5 Free.  Install it and set your path to %PATH%\c:\borland\bcc55\bin.  Download and install the IDE, Programmer's File Editor. 

I will send another post to tell you how to configure the IDE to recognize the compiler
Re: Java Has Failed! by africanboy(m): 9:42am On Feb 09, 2006
like i said before, i tried learning java, but in a country where (esp for me) you had to work 25hours a day to keep soul together. i had to learn the easiest language that would bring food to my table fastest.

still i dont like java, not because it is slow to learn. we were started on basic and moved to visual basic. truly, nigeria is still a microsoft country. virtually almost all clients in nigeria use the windows platform so i can be afraid of running out of clients to develop for.

and if i want inter-platform, i still wont use java.

repeating: java on my mobile phone is not my first choice when it comes to applications. i use nokia 6600 and i have numerous applications on my 128mb memory card. there are java games only, no apps. all my apps are symbian apps. they are just more comfortable to use. faster. more interesting.

i dont have a java apps on my PC, both home and office. what the heck! is this forum powered by java? maybe not. and it sure as hell is "tapping"

a typical client in nigeria (even enterprise companies and governments) will judge an interface first before the functionality...oh and you ust deliver fast.

still, Seun, create a tutorials category and let sbu do some teaching.
Re: Java Has Failed! by sbucareer(f): 12:32pm On Feb 09, 2006
"africanboy":

a typical client in nigeria (even enterprise companies and governments) will judge an interface first before the functionality...oh and you ust deliver fast.


What an incompetent Project/Software Manager!

Re: Java Has Failed! by Fdeveloper(m): 8:22pm On Feb 09, 2006
@africanboy

I think you are selling Nigeria short. As a consultant, I have worked with many clients here in Nigeria who are not only interested in the user interface (although it is important) but are also very particular about the architecture over which the solution is deployed. A significant number of clients have specifically requested J2EE solutions deployed in WebLogic, JBoss and so on but having said that I'm certainly not saying that everybody is or should be a fan of java.

One further point, unless I'm mistaken Symbian is an OS and you can in fact develop java applications that will run in Symbian. You can certainly argue that java applications run faster on Symbian than on other OS but the point here is the OS and not the programming language.
Re: Java Has Failed! by sbucareer(f): 11:14pm On Feb 09, 2006

@africanboy, what you have to understand is that, a programmer is not a UI developer. in J2EE environment we have many roles ie.

1. J2EE Product Provider
2. Application Component Provider
3. Application Assembler
4. Deployer
5. System Administrator
6. Tool Provider


The most interesting role above is Application Component Provider.  In my company, the role is divided into UI provoder, Bean provider, and legacy experts.

UI group are further divided into two groups, Bean UI provider and Multimedia Arts.  Now, Multimedia guys are not necessary programmers as long as you can use all macromedia suite application i.e. fireworks, flash, and director.  Bean UI provider are programmers, they use UI framework beans i.e. strut, tagLibrary, JSF.

The other serious programmer are the Bean provider.  These guys are master of digital binary manipulators.  In short they are the digital gurus.  They make software happen.  Above all they can translate any UML to code and this is the section I work in my organisation.  Besides, I can work in any role.

Reference

1. J2EE Roles

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