Caradona:

@ TOPIC
It depends on the type of outfits she is wearing.
if she wears too much makeups
then she hasn't repented yet and can't preach to me ooo .
I'll tell her to go take a walk and find another job

as dry as it is, i hope dis is supposed to be funny or else i'd wonder what kinda person would say that.

Perhaps it might be more helpful to appreciate the roles played by women in the Church; rather than just simply relegating them to a black hole mentality as if they were meant to exist and never be heard.

What roles do women play in Church? Women may not have been among the priesthood of the OT; but they are undeniably included in the priesthood of all Christian believers in the NT (I Pet. 2:5 & 9).

I was just thinking about this question this morning, and the thought that crossed my mind was this:

I would rather be in a local church where women are appreciated for their leadership roles
than be in one where women are second citizens.

Am I getting my thoughts on mere human persuasions? Not at all. I think it is time for us to begin to open our hearts and minds and to re-examine our traditional male-only religious world. I believe there are answers for some of the questions many of us are asking; but more than that, we might as well be concerned with whether or not we have been asking the right kinds of questions.

Humans cannot rethink Divine standards.

Jesus had faithful women who suffered with him throughout his earthly ministry. But when he selected those that will take the lead in teaching and presiding over the congregation of true believers, he selected only men, reflecting the will of his Father.

When issues arose that needed to be handled within the First century congregation, Only Men had the authority to lead and make decisions.

It was not a man made arraingment, so men are not in a position to rethink it. Divine standards are already set.

The example of those ladies that walked with Jesus is what true christians should imitate.

They never claimed to have the same authority as the Men who took the lead, never sought to perform their roles nor did they complain to Jesus or any one else about beign discriminated against.

THEY UNDERSTOOD THEIR PLACE IN GOD'S DIVINE ARRAINGMENT AND SHOWED RESPECT AND OBIDIENCE FOR IT.



Its not a personal or small matter

@sage,

I don't think there's any need to keep repeating yourself over and over again on just one thing. What you just said above has been said earlier here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.64.html#msg1247657

The one thing that we ought to be doing now is to set aside our male-driven ego and look into Scripture as to the indispensable ministry of women. It's just about time that we should be asking the right kind of questions and seeking to appreciate the very profound roles women are called to play in the life of the Church.

Surely women are also part of the Body of Christ, not so? And they are also on equal terms of NT priesthood with the men, not so? Now, we should begin asking ourselves what exactly the Bible shows us as to their profound calling and ministries in the Body of Christ, in order that we may better appreciate them.

Remember: "neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord" (I Cor. 11:11).

how exactly does that last scripture institute women into taking the leadership of the church.

That verse (I Cor. 11:11) was offered to remind us that the life of the Church is not a question of male-only phenomenon - it includes and involves the indispensable role of women as well.

I observe that not many people have taken the time to examine the very important roles of women in Church life. Rather, for the most part the gists have been about the world of men, so much so as if to make it sound like women are asked to keep out, stay out, and shut up; or otherwise walk on tip-toe if you must be in Church!

Okay, maybe that's not exactly how it should sound. But then, I'm concerned that when people make the assumption that NT ministry is exclusively a male-only exercise, they might be missing out on what the Bible teaches about the leadership of women in Church.

"Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord."

I do not think women should be asked to shut up/keep quiet about church matters & incidents, but I also don't think they're granted the choice of "THE" leadership role in the church. This doesn't mean they're excluded from partaking in leadership roles in the church.

Although I'm willing to think otherwise if further scriptures that address this matter is provided to revert my thoughts.

There are a few things we should note here. "THE" leadership in the Church is not exclusively granted to men, as some have inferred. To assume that it is such would simply mean that women have no leadership roles to play in Church. Men and women together have leadership roles in the Body of Christ.

The second thing is that women in leadership are not to usurp authority over the men. However, there should be a balance rather than a polarization towards just the men.

I believe that women are also gifted with some of the charisma that are given to the men. One such gift is prophesying ("your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" - Acts 2:17). A few others could be delineated. But the question is: what leadership roles are women called to take in Church Life as could be read in Scripture?

But the question is: what leadership roles are women called to take in Church Life as could be read in Scripture?
yep, you hit the nail on it's center of gravity.

@stimulus

im not getting drawn into a pointless prolonged argument on an issue as clear as this from a scriptural pespective.

but let me say this.

Following scriptural precedent

1 in ancient Israel, women and children participated in activities of worship to God as they were mandated to, but the lead and presiding roles in teaching the congregated people were only for select MEN.

2 Kings in ancient Israel played a pivotal role in leading the nation in pure worship and that role was specifically reserved for males.

3 Jesus was Perfect and made perfect decisions. In selecting those who would take the lead in pure worship, he selected only men despite faithful women beign all around him. It was no oversight or mistake. He did his Fathers will every step of the way and layed the precedent which his true followers adhere to

4When issues arose in the first century like circumcision and other issues and how the Church then was to be directed, it was a decision that was made only by MALES under the direction of the holy spirit. (Despite the fact that there were women disciples who had God's approval in the first century, including those that were close to Jesus)

5 The admonishion in Corithians and Timothy was observed by God fearing women who had God's approval in the first century and applies to true Christians today

@topic; yes! as long as d spirit of God rules within aint a problem @ all.

stimulus:

There are a few things we should note here. "THE" leadership in the Church is not exclusively granted to men, as some have inferred. To assume that it is such would simply mean that women have no leadership roles to play in Church. Men and women together have leadership roles in the Body of Christ.

The second thing is that women in leadership are not to usurp authority over the men. However, there should be a balance rather than a polarization towards just the men.

I believe that women are also gifted with some of the charisma that are given to the men. One such gift is prophesying ("your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" - Acts 2:17). A few others could be delineated. But the question is: what leadership roles are women called to take in Church Life as could be read in Scripture?

This is an EMPTY ARGUMENT

In Ancient Israel, there were also women who were gifted with prophesy just like their male counterparts

BUT THEY COULD NOT PRESIDE OR TAKE A LEADERSHIP ROLE IN THE WORSHIP OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD.

All Christians, both in the first century and today have the same commision of declare the kingdom under Jesus, but when it came to the congregation of God's true people, true christians followed and would still follow the example of Jesus and of his apostles

@ Stimulus

You are not the first one to question the God's divine arraingment when it comes to arraingment for leadership in worship.

Miriam, Korah, Athaliah, Saul and a whole host of people who felt that they had good intentions also did that.

But this issue is not a thrivial in the front of the Almighty. He dealt decisively with them.

Stimulus, you're right.

@sage
what do you have to say to Joyce Meyer and Paula White? "step down, you may be making a lot of sense but that's not what God wants you to do, sorry. ", ?

this is a very pointless argument like you said. these gender "discussions" are getting real old and tired.

woman! or no woman! the word of God is the word of God

@sage,

sage:

You are not the first one to question the God's divine arraingment when it comes to arraingment for leadership in worship.

It is least surprising that you of all people would have said that, because you have refused to open your eyes to read the gist of my posts. Since you're so driven by your chauvinistic world, please set your male-pride aside for a moment and understand that I am NOT questioning God's divine arrangement in leadership in the Church. If anything at all, my point is clear and as consistent as can be:

stimulus:

The second thing is that women in leadership are not to usurp authority over the men. However, there should be a balance rather than a polarization towards just the men.

Does that sound like questioning God's divine order of leadership for His Church? Mr. sage, let me call your attention to a few serious matters that you have failed to consider:

sage:

2 Kings in ancient Israel played a pivotal role in leading the nation in pure worship and that role was specifically reserved for males.

Dear sir, please go back to the OT and see that God specifically chose WOMEN to lead the nation of Israel in very crucial matters of their existence! Let me give you one example:

"And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount
Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment." -- Judg. 4:4-5.

Does that sound like leadership or not? What do you understand by leadership - is that something that is so narrow that you fail to see that it applies to both men and women in the collective life of God's people?

Please set your male-pride aside for once and look into Scripture and see that God has specifically called both the men and women in the Body of Christ and clearly outlined roles for them. My one argument has been that women are specifically asked to not teach or usurp authority over the men in the Church. However, that does not mean at all the women did not have leadership positions in the Church.

Would I attend Church run by a Feminist? Bleep no. A lady in her right mind would know
that she have a lot to do in her home than that.

lol, that was funny lad.

@sage,

sage:

This is an EMPTY ARGUMENT

In Ancient Israel, there were also women who were gifted with prophesy just like their male counterparts

BUT THEY COULD NOT PRESIDE OR TAKE A LEADERSHIP ROLE IN THE WORSHIP OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD.

What you call an empty argument speaks more to your own posts than any other. Instead of being so narrow in your cut-and-dry rules for the chauvinism of male exclusivity, would it hurt you at all to take a moment and re-consider what God's Word says on this very subject?

Let me leave you a few pointers on some aspects of the roles women play in the life of the Church:


WOMEN are also PRIESTS in the NT

a) Women are also priests together with the men in the NT. In the OT, no woman was selected to participate in the Levitical priesthood. However, since Christians derive their priesthood from that which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises (after the order of Melchizedek), God has called both men and women to be priests in worship - I Pet. 2:5 & 9.

Infact, when you go back to the OT worship you will find a woman leading worship! "And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances. And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea" (Exo. 15:20-21). She may not have been a teacher or apostle or pastor or evangelist; but she definitely was called a PROPHETESS!!


WOMEN are also to PROPHESY in CHURCH

b) Since you're so caught up in the rigid traditions of chauvinistic mentality, would it hurt to ask again about why God would have poured out His Spirit on both the men and women He called in the fellowship of His Son? Let me remind you again:

     "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon
     all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall
     see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" (Acts 2:17).

Why would God be asking women to "shut up" if He gave them the Spirit to prophesy in the first place? He clearly meant for women to prophesy as do the men; however, He clearly laid down divine principles for women to recognize His divine order so they do not usurp authority over the men.

Now, let me be a bit clearer about this. In I Corinthians 11, the apostle Paul recognized the that women can also PRAY and PROPHESY in church:

      "Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the
      ordinances, as I delivered them to you. But I would have you know, that the
      head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the
      head of Christ is God. ^AEvery man praying or prophesying, having his head covered,
      dishonoureth his head. But ^Bevery woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head
      uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."
      -- I Cor. 11:2-5

     "For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted."
      -- I Cor. 14:31.

Excuse me, mr sage, does the Bible say that only men may prophesy in Church? Does the Bible say that only men may pray in Church? Were the "ordinances" in I Cor. 11:2 made for only men in Church?

How is it that we have so narrowed our ideas to a male-only world and refused for decades to see what roles women play in Church Life? The one thing women were asked to not do is TEACH in church. But it did not say that they could not PRAY or PROPHESY in Church!!


WOMEN could also be leaders in HELPS and GOVERNMENTS in Church

c) In the ministry of the Spirit, believers are given various gifts according to I Cor. 12; and not everyone receives the same type of gifts. "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." (vs. 4). However, those men who believe that women are simply to be seen but not heard in the life of the Church ought to carefully consider what is written in verse 27: "And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness."

Following on from there, the apostle made it clear that: "God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues" (vs. 28 ).

It may surprise most of us caught in the rigid world of men-only mentality; but do you know that in the life of the Church, women have prayed and people have been healed? Do we realize that women also speak in tongues? Then what is the problem recognizing that WOMEN also were called to participate in the ministry of HELPS and GOVERNMENT? Do we realize that women often times make for remarkable administrators in governmental matters of the Church? I'm not joking, but I've seen women who have proven to be far better managers and administrators than most men in Church life - and yes, most of these women I know are not noise makers!

Now look again and ask yourself why Paul would make mention of the women who laboured alongside with him in a positive way: "And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life" (Php. 4:3).

The same Paul recognized that it is women who make a better job at TEACHING other women: "The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children" (Tit. 2:3-4).


The problem with this beggarly male chauvinism is that it has refused to re-consider what exactly God has said about the women! And my point has been once and again:

stimulus:

Perhaps it might be more helpful to appreciate the roles played by women in the Church; rather than just simply relegating them to a black hole mentality as if they were meant to exist and never be heard.

What roles do women play in Church? Women may not have been among the priesthood of the OT; but they are undeniably included in the priesthood of all Christian believers in the NT (I Pet. 2:5 & 9).

Mr. sage, I hope by now you can understand where I'm coming from so that you don't simply write off the core issues of the concerns being raised here.

Men are leaders in Church, no doubt. But is leadership in Church an exclusive preserve for ONLY MEN? What does God's Word show us instead, especially in regards to the indispensable ministry that WOMEN are called to betake in the Body of Christ?

Cheers.

hi ikomi, u need to control ur urges. its not just right.control what goes on ur mind.
if u dnt it could could cause u great harm.

if u really want to control it, i mean u r bothered about it. u could pray,talk to God about it cos he made u and can take it off. cutting off the woman is not the solution especially when the woman is properly dressed. the problem is ur mind.

besides there is nothing wrong with a woman pastor. as long as God speaks thru her she interprets the word of God.
dnt forget that pride comes b4 a downfall. if we continue with such idea, we could miss a message or a lesson we could learn form a woman preacher or pastor

good day pals

@Stimulus

Acts 2:17 is a scripture you are twisting to make out a meaning that does not apply to it.

The question is not if women are prophets in the new testament.

THE QUESTION IS ARE WOMEN ALLOWED TO TAKE THE LEAD IN WORSHIP AND PRESIDE OVER GOD'S CONGREGATED PEOPLE?

YOUR ARGUMENTS ARE EMPTY LIKE I SAID BECAUSE

1 MIRIAM LED WOMEN IN WORSHIP, BUT WHEN MEN AND THE WHOLE ASSEMBLY OF ISREAL WAS CONGREGATED, ONLY MEN TOOK THE LEAD IN WORSHIP

2 THERE WERE PROPHETESSES PROPHESYING IN ANCEINT ISRAEL WHO KNEW THE WILL OF GOD, BUT ONLY MEN COULD PRESIDE OVER MATTERS RELATING TO THE WORSHIP OF GOD

3 IN TRUE FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIANITY, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN PREACHED ABOUT GOD'S KINGDOM, BUT WHEN IT CAME TO PRESIDING OVER TRUE WORSHIP, IT WAS A ROLE RSERVED FOR MEN ONLY

@sage,

Instead of your repeated childish rants, why don't you please look into God's Word and offer what you can discover about women's leadership roles in Church? At least I've offered you some; and you didn't have anything to say thereto than your chauvinistic comeback which hasn't proved anything.

This is what informed my continued debate in this thread from the post of the originator:

The point is can you submit to the spiritual authority of a female leader? Let's keep chatting.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-61492.32.html#msg1235901

If I could just bring this question round and simplify it this way:

Does the Bible reveal that WOMEN can be leaders with spiritual authority in Church?

For the most part, some are persuaded that women should not be considered leaders at all in spiritual matters. That being so, and because I'm opposed to that kind of mentality, my posts are challenging the default male-chauvinism that refuse to re-consider what God has said concerning women in Church. Rather than assume the male-ego campaign, could we just calm down and look again into the Word in order to discover/rediscover what GOD Himself has taught there on this subject?

You're alleging that I'm twisting Acts 2:17; but what do you have to say to what I've pointed out thereto? Your childish rants alleging that my arguments are empty is a bit old fashioned now; and if you don't know what women are called to do in Church, you could as well re-write your own bible.

Now go through the points I offered in my previous rejoinder; and then try to seek answers to the following questions:


"For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted"
-- I Cor. 14:31
a) was the apostle Paul addressing only men in this verse?


"That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands,
to love their children"  --  Tit. 2:4
b) was the apostle Paul addressing this verse for only men as well?


"And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount
Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment." -- Judg. 4:4-5.
c) was Deborah playing the role of a leader over the entire nation of Israel of not?

Oga sage, please save the childish rants and calmly look at what those verses are saying. If anything at all, they're not saying that leadership among God's people was the exclusive preserve of the men-only world!!

To think sage used to be cool.

@Stimulus

Acts 2:17

You keep quoting that scripture saying women would prophesy huh since Acts 2;17 now means something else

That prophesy and proclamation was made to ancient israel in Joel Chap 2:28 and 29. The apostle quoted that verse word for word. Dont try to twist it like  it was a new proclamation under christianity that now somehow allowed women to preside over matters concerning true worship.[/b]The proclamation was made to the people of Israel in a system where [b]Only men by divine arraingment could preside over the congregation of the Israelites


And how does Tim 2:4 translate into Teaching Men in the congregation

ThiefOfHearts:

To think sage used to be cool.

I am always cool @thief. As cool as they come . I always speak the truth, even if its not what i do or follow. The fact that i do not follow something does not change a fact or precedent that is clear. I dont have to agree with something, but that does not change it either

If we were having a secular discussion, it will be a diffrent ball game, but the scriptures are clear and scriptural precedent are what true Christians followed and would still follow.

@sage,

Please amuse me more.    Why is Acts 2:17 such a pitchfork to you?  How did apostle Peter apply the prophecy of Joel 2??

    "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" - Acts 2:16.

Was Peter confining the outpouring of the Spirit to only the MEN of Israel? Please take a second look:

    "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off,
    even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (vs. 37)

Now, dear sage, was the promise in Joel 2 which was fulfilled in Acts 2 strictly for Jewish men ONLY? Did it not include the Gentiles also as many as God Himself would call??

Secondly, have you taken a look at what is called leadership in Church? You're dreaming of a M.A.N.-only church were women are supposed to just shut up even if God Himself has given them His Spirit to both pray and prophesy!

The Bible does not present a chauvinistic world to Christians; and it would be helpful that you try and enlarge your heart to see what is stated in the Word.

You are missing the point

Women in ancient Israel Prophesyed and prayed but COULD NOT PRESIDE IN WORSHIP OVER MEN.

Both men and women in Israel recieved God's blessings in equal measure, but women could not preside

TRUE DISCIPLES OF JESUS WERE PRESIDED OVER ONLY BY MEN TOO.

I guess I kinda remember you laughing at people who would write/say such things.

The real question is do you yourself agree with this?

@sage,

You're rather missing the point. LOL.

NT worship is not a continuum of OT worship style.

In the OT, there were only male priests.

In the NT, BOTH men and women are priests!

@Thief the issue is that this is not a secular discussion. I dislike people who degrade women in gender issues but thats another issue though for eg men that have slept with many women saying that marrying a virgin would be be this best thing that could happen to them and they would adore her forever because of her Purity, holiness, undefiled state etc bla bla bla. Yeah right. If those things ment a thing to those guys, they would be virgins themselves .Its all a matter of Ego so they can appease their over inflated ego and be like no other man had slept with her b/4 me. So when these guys start blabing about things like adore her purity, I just roll my eyes because its laughable
When it comes to biblical matters, even if a person does not agree wit a particular thing, the person should not try to twist it to accomodate other things

sage:

When it comes to biblical matters, even if a person does not agree wit a particular thing, the person should not try to twist it to accomodate other things

Please mark that and apply it to the rejoinders you make.