@Iluvnet

Indeed and agreed by and large; also, I too thought that post no 53 by SirAbbey was very instructive.


@Joagbaje

In other words you have no proof let alone reliable proof as requested. If you have an honest intention, you could start your reeducation by reading that link provided by ysg4real; here again:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_the_Just

Joagbaje:


James and others were not involved with Jesus in his earthly ministry.

We only knew about their disturbances in his meeting."thy brethren seek thee" and jesus would nit answer them saying "my brethren are those who hear my Words."

Invariably, they were not listening to his tapes. They didn't believe in him as messiah.

John 7:5
5 Even his brothers didn't believe in him.

All these had been oredicted , so It is a fulfilment of prophecies.

Psalm 69:8
8I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children. 9For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up;

After the death of christ, he became converted and also was honoured as head of Jerusalem church .Peter initial position.he was a force in the early church.

Galatians 1:19
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

1 Corinthians 9:5
5 Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas?


He and his group made paul compromise the gospel by pretending to obey Jewish law and custom.


Acts21:18
18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

@^^^

Sweeping up after you and picking up what you dropped

You dropped 1 Corinthians 15:7 sire  

1 Corinthians 15:7 NLT
Then he was seen by James and later by all the apostles

Why specifically see James first before the apostles?

Same reason that made Jesus come through locked doors to see Thomas a week after he said to the disciples:

"Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

You worship them when you call them, think of them, and treat them etc as men of God.  The worshipping starts from there because unconsciously or subconsciously, you then look at them and behave towards them as the title implies. They are nothing but human beings like you and I and should be treated as such.  Respect them as you would other people who deserve your respect.  Do not look unto them as representatives of the Lord on earth. They are not men of God. At best they can call themselves servants of the Lord if they know the meaning of the concept and wish to live their lives accordingly!  However, in their unbridled arrogance they wish to lift themselves above all other human beings and thereby carving for themselves artificial positions of power, authority and influence which they otherwise would not have.  Thus they merely make use of the Name of the Lord for their selfish ends and this really amounts to blasphemy!

Peace!

@last page

I didn't see your post earlier.

lastpage:

@Joagbaje[/b]Okay, so other Apostles take their "believing wife" along on missionary missions! ,,,and he asked why he should be deprived on this benefit?

Question is: What that request genuine or NOT?

When the Bible says" what God has joined together, let no man put asunder"! Why should "man" try to separate James and his wife, when such union is ordained by God?
[b]Why then do you "count this against James", as shown in your quote above?

I have no issue with James honeymooning . My emphasis there was that he was "the lords brother" an not another James.

@enigma

Enigma:

@Joagbaje
In other words you have no proof let alone reliable proof as requested. If you have an honest intention, you could start your reeducation by reading that link provided by ysg4real; here again:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_the_Just

I gave you bible proofs, what else can be more authentic than that? If you want other links on James you can start on this one. http://lionandlambministry.com/index.php/component/content/article/326-a-study-of-the-epistle-of-james.
Mind you I don't agree with everything there. But there is a lot there for you.I will add other links later.

^^^ Go and read something more sensible mate.

Try the simple one in the following link and read what someone who really knows a thing or two about these things says about the incidence concerning "the party from James" etc etc http://www.amazon.com/Paul-Everyone-Galatians-Thessalonians-Testament/dp/0281053049

The link you gave is demanding I should buy a book. Is that what you call "simple"

I am suggesting you read the book --- whether you borrow or buy it. Moreover, I am saying that the book is written in a simple style. You want to try an "intermediate" work of the author like this article (full text and not link to buy) linked below let alone talking about some "heavier" works.

http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Galatians_Exegesis_Theology.htm

I think we need a federal ministry on religious matters that will control the activities of all this seemingly men of God.But i think all the blame should all go on the poverty level of the nation and that's why we have been so much aligned to the religious institute thus we fail to understand the core of ethics of religion and expect an unprecedented miracle that has made us respect this men and idolise them

when u don't go to church because the pastor is not around.u will not listen to anyone else, except the pastor.

Hi everyone, am really enjoying the conversations. I came across this article and i hope it will be a blessing to you all. Also, it answers our questions. Sorry it is long, but it is worth reading. Shalom!

Authoritarianism In The Church part 1

by Steve Martin
The Problem


A tragic and dangerous trend can be observed in some contemporary evangelical churches. While standing against the lawlessness and anti-authority mood of this generation, some conservative, Bible-believing churches have drifted into deadly authoritarian tendencies. This sad phenomenon is increasingly becoming publicized and well-documented (see suggested reading list at the end of this article).

Why is this happening? What kind of attitudes engender authoritarianism in a church? Whose fault is it? What can be done about it?

Before proceeding any farther, some definition is in order. For the purposes of this article, "authoritarianism" is defined as an abuse of the authority given by Christ through the agency of the Holy Spirit and revealed in God's Word which the office holders of the local churches are to exercise. It has been my observation that this abuse of authority usually takes on one or both of the following forms.

First, the sin of authoritarianism exists when pastors and other office holders speak with binding authority where God Himself has not spoken in His written Word. If God has not pronounced on the subject, it is a usurpation of the Creator. A pastor may rightly proclaim "Thus saith the Lord" when preaching against idolatry, adultery, greed, marrying an unbeliever or any other violation of the express commands of God. That is his duty and God help the man who "cuts and trims" texts to speak smooth words to his flock. But the pastor has no warrant from Christ to speak with the binding authority of God's imprimatur to issues upon which the written word of God is silent.

Second, the sin of authoritarianism exists when pastors and other office holders usurp the Lordship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the lives of God's people by deciding the will of God for them where Scripture is silent. Church officers may not declare the will of God for God's people on such choices as one's career, choice of Christian mate, choice of lawful employment, place of living, schooling they attend, etc., without becoming surrogate deities. Flocks of sheep with paralyzed decision-making faculties reveal exposure to shepherds who played God with them. Thus the sinful tendency revealed in John Milton's wry observation ("New presbyter is but old priest writ large" returns to haunt churches. And even more sadly, some idol-worshipping sheep love it to be so.
Causes of the Problem

Surely the cause of authoritarianism and idol-worship is sin. But what sins in particular need to be recognized, repented of and mortified by the Holy Spirit's help? Five sins of the shepherds and three sins of the sheep come to mind. Taken together they produce churches with a powerfully sinful pathology which dishonors Christ, smothers the sheep, inflates the shepherds and hinders the work of God.
Sins of the Shepherds

Today's authoritarian shepherds seem to fall prey to one or more of the following sins as they exercise their ministry.

1. Idolatry: the sinful desires of some men to always be in control, especially the control of the lives of God's sheep. Such sin is but a thinly veiled attempt to play God. And make no mistake, such men become as God to their flock. It is hardly surprising that pastors with such a sinful proclivity will eventually attain near papal infallibility in their churches. Paul's command to Titus in 2:15 ("rebuke with all authority,  do not let anyone despise you" is their key verse in practice if not by precept. Usually the idolatrous sin of control is accompanied by a wrathful, berating, anxiety-producing spirit as the authoritarian leader will tolerate no loose atoms in their personal universe of control (cf. Ezek. 34:4c; Matt. 20:25; 1 Pet. 5:3). Such self-deified pastors produce congregations which are more afraid of displeasing the pastors than they are of displeasing their Lord and Savior. Men who must be "God" to their people ironically lose the authority of God's Holy Spirit by their sin, and God-given authority is replaced by fleshly control maintained by manipulation, intimidation, verbal coercion and ecclesiastical pulling of rank (e.g. "Now, I'm your elder and you had better be,  or else,  ". The Apostle John's description of Diotrephes seems to fall under such a category of sin (3 John 9-10).

2. Prayerlessness: authoritarian pastors do not rely upon prayer for their people as a primary instrument ordained by God for the edification of His people. As a result, they verbally coerce and bully their people to conform. They seek to rely only on the "arm of flesh" of their own strong-arm tactics. Such fleshly shepherds expend far more labor scolding, threatening, manipulating, confronting and "exercising discipline" to get their people to conform to their wishes than they do laboring before the throne of grace for the Spirit's supernatural work of conforming saints to Christ's image (2 Cor. 3:18). The Word of God makes plain that every shepherd's arsenal does include the rod and the staff. But it also emphasizes the importance of intercessory prayer for the growth of the people of God (cf. the recorded prayers of our Lord's and the Apostle Paul on behalf of their people). Sadly, many pastors beat their sheep because the weapons of the flesh are more comfortable in their own hands than the weapons of the Spirit. The Apostle James warns about men whose lives are strewn with the wreckage of their carnal leadership and links it to their prayerlessness (James 3:13-4:3).

3. Unbelief: many office holders do not believe the declarative statements and promises of God in the Scripture. They do not believe that Christ is Lord of His true church and that the gates of hell will not prevail against it. They do not believe that God the Holy Spirit is also Lord of the church, conforming God's people into His image. They do not believe God the Father will exercise His Fatherly love and discipline over the lives of His adopted children. In their unbelief, following hard on the heals of their own prayerlessness, authoritarian shepherds develop the mind-set, "If I don't make them do this, they won't!" or "If I don't make them do this, who will?" They really do not believe that the Holy Spirit will superintend His people and convict them of sin when away from the shepherd. Even as Christian parents must entrust their Christian teens unto the Lord as they drive the car down the driveway or leave for the university, so pastors must learn to trust God the Holy Spirit to work in the lives of His people when they are out from under the watchful gaze of their local under-shepherd. Sadly, such pastors create a "police state mentality" in their congregations where everyone's life is carefully monitored and scrutinized for any deviation, and "sins" are to be reported to the church leadership immediately.

4. Lack of love for the sheep: shepherds in ancient Palestine walked ahead of their sheep, leading them on and calling them by name to follow them to green pastures and cool waters. The sheep followed because they had come to know the shepherd's faithful care and loving concern for their own well-being. It was the shepherd who slept in the doorway of the sheepfold to guard the flock at night. It was the shepherd who fought the bear, the lion and other predators. It was the shepherd who protected the flock from the thief. It was the shepherd who left the 99 to go looking for the lost sheep. It was the shepherd who gently led the nursing ewes and their young.

Such imagery surely depicts a sacrificial love for the sheep on the part of the shepherd. But times have changed for many shepherds in the West. "Sheep ranchers" now employ barking dogs and shepherds in helicopters to drive the frightened, harassed and bewildered sheep ahead of them. The sheep in such contemporary operations are motivated out of fear of the snarling bite of the shepherds' seemly omnipresent dogs and the incessant bellowing of the shepherd himself over the loud-speaker in his helicopter overhead.

Sadly, in too many congregations today, sheep are driven by a man more like a callous meat packer than a loving shepherd. Many modern shepherds don't even like sheep; it's just their business. In fact, men are encouraged not to get too close to the sheep or emotionally involved in their lives and problems. So many pastors don't actually like (let alone love) their people. They promote witnessing and world evangelization, they just don't like to be around individual sinners. One need only read of our Lord's loving compassion for the sheep-like sinners of His earthly ministry (Matt. 9:36, 14:14; Mark 1:40-41, 10:21) and recognize how far removed that is from many pastoral examples today. Sacrificial shepherd-love which lays down its life for the sheep has been replaced by loveless sheep management by uncaring sheep ranchers.

5. Pride: at root, all the above mentioned sins of office bearers stem from an inflated sense of their own importance. John Calvin once shrewdly observed that from the king on his throne to the scullery maid in the kitchen, each of us harbors a kingdom in our hearts. Such is the sinful pride of the human heart. Creatures saved by the sovereign grace of their Creator and put into service of their fellow creatures may all too quickly forget that they are but clay pots made out of "proud dust" (to use Thomas Watson's apt expression). We must be reminded that we hold our office by our Master's pleasure, to do His bidding, and to further His Kingdom. Humble shepherds never forget from whence they have come nor to whom they must give an account.

Humble shepherds look to God's sheep with compassion; prideful shepherds look down upon the sheep with scornful contempt for their weaknesses and failings. Humble shepherds remember that even the Great Shepherd of the sheep patiently endured the misunderstanding, scolding and fleshly rebukes of His sheep (cf. Matt. 16:22; Mark 4:38; 1 Peter 2:21-23). Prideful shepherds however react to every real and perceived slight to their "august personage." How unlike their Master! Shepherds must learn that they cannot be conformed to the image of Christ as longsuffering and forgiving unless they are "long bothered" and wronged. Pride, however, responds to the irritations of sinners with anger. An angry leader is a prideful leader.

here is the part 2 - i find it very informative and eye opening.

The Sins of the Sheep

Sad to say, but the sheep themselves contribute their own sins to the creation of authoritarian ministries. Having talked with several wounded sheep, it has struck me how seldom they have seen their own culpability. They are quick to foist all blame upon their harsh taskmasters. But petty dictators cannot reign without the consent of their craven lackeys and servile subjects. There are at least three sins which they contribute to the sinful pathology of authoritarian churches.

1. Idol-worship: sinful flesh is not content with the reality of the one true God. It wants to fashion an idol in place of the invisible God who is spirit. There is always the temptation to act like the Jews of Saul's time who wanted a human leader they could see, rather than the unseen God (cf. 1 Samuel . But God shares His glory with no man, not even "called men" who are promoted to demi-god status by their adoring flock. Such flocks too often find for themselves a man who likes to lord it over the flock. Thus a sinfully symbiotic relationship is complete with an abusive authority figure coupled to his idol-worshipping minions (Jeremiah 5:30-31).

2. Fear of man: too many sheep are more gripped by the desire to please a man or more fearful of displeasing a man than they are of pleasing or displeasing Almighty God (cf. Prov. 29:25; John 5:41-44). They spend their time dancing around their idol, expending their energies catering to his every whim and seeking to avoid his wrath. Men pleasers have little stomach for potential conflict. They would never dare ask their exalted leader a question, no matter how respectfully. They would never ask for the biblical basis for a decision made by the leadership, even when that decision seems to fly in the face of clear Scriptural teaching. Such men-pleasers crave the smile of a man's countenance more than the smile of God and they will not speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15).

3. Unbelief: too many sheep do not believe that God still guides His people today through the means of prayerful meditation upon the Word of God and the illuminating ministry of the Holy Spirit. It is easier for the flesh to suspend the use of spiritual faculties and scriptural means of guidance for the short-cut of asking the leader to determine God's will and make the decisions all the time. It is not surprising that sheep who put men on pedestals, who cravenly serve men and who do not believe that God still guides will fall prey to abusive shepherds. It is only by the grace of God that it doesn't happen more than it does. (Even good men know the temptation to become surrogate "gods" for their people and must stoutly resist the temptation to always answer questions of guidance and decision making.) Perhaps, some of the time, authoritarian shepherds are God's chastening rods on the backs of idol-worshipping, men-pleasing, unbelieving sheep who will not have God to be their God but who substitute a mere creature in His place (cf. Is. 2:22; Ps. 33:13-19).
The Cure for Authoritarian Shepherds and Idol-Worshipping Sheep

The call of the Word of God to sinners is always "repent and believe." So it is to the office holder who has exercised his office in sinful ways. So it is to the member of a local church who has sinfully preferred looking to puny men rather than Almighty God.

Shepherds convicted of the sins of authoritarianism should humbly come to the Word of God and prayerfully meditate upon those great passages which delineate the work of the man of God and warn against abuse (Gen. 18, Ex. 32-33; Lev. 10, Ez. 34; Matt. 23; the Pastoral Epistles, 1 Pet. 5, et al). Repentance involves confession. Public sins must be publicly confessed; private sins must be privately confessed.

Pastors guilty of authoritarianism would do well to preach to themselves and their flocks an extended series on 1 Corinthians 13, Philippians 2, the Sermon on the Mount, or John 10. They should not be afraid to humble themselves to the dust before God and their people, for our God does not despise a broken and contrite heart (Ps. 51:17). He comes close to the lowly and meek and raises them up. The true people of God will not despise "a good man who is good enough to recognize that he is not good enough." Pastors must seek to cultivate the habit of intercessory prayer on behalf of their people. They must pray for great grace to resist the persistent temptation to play God for people. They must learn to redirect potential idol-worshipers to the living God who delights in His Bride but who will not share her with another. They must also pray for the sheep that they would not become embittered but would be forgiving of the pastor's sins. Shepherds who have been guilty of not loving their flocks sacrificially must pray for God the Holy Spirit to produce the loving fruit of the Spirit in their hearts, and with a compassion bred of selflessness, they must cultivate works of loving concern even when the initial "feeling" of love is not present. God will not long withhold His Spirit from that man who pleads for grace to love the flock as Christ does and who begins regularly giving himself to them in sacrificial acts of service. Men who humble themselves before the Lord will be shown what they need to see and shown afresh how the blood of Christ cleanses even the stains of pastoral sins.

Sheep convicted of worshipping idols, pleasing men and disbelieving God must also face their sins and repent. Such repentance would include study and meditation upon God's Word on idolatry, men-pleasing, and the sin of unbelief. Sheep must learn to look to the Great Shepherd of the sheep. Weak faith grows best upon a diet of regular study and a believing hearing of the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Sheep must also learn from God's Word that enduring real or imagined conflict is not the worse thing in the world and that the worst that a man can do to you is nothing compared with what Almighty God can do. Sheep must be encouraged to learn in more depth that they are believer-priests with equal access to God and the same merit of Christ as their title deed for prayer. Sheep who walk with God, who know His Word and believe it and obey it are not likely to fall prey to tin gods, clay idols and fleshly shepherds.

May God give His people grace to see their sins and repent of them. We dare not glory in our current condition and slothfully ignore the deplorable state of much of Christ's Church. We must first judge ourselves that we may not be judged. And we must plead the purposes and promises of our Father in begging Him for the renewal of the Holy Spirit.

For me respecting a man of God is different from worshiping him. When you begin to pray in his name. eg, in the name of -------, or you bow down to him,or you you take them in your heart as your lord and saviour, your hope, your provider, your very existance your all and all, and your maker then you are worshiping them. But respecting them as your fathers in faith is different. you can respect and take them just like you respect your parents. you respect their authority as your spriritual head by obeying their order where you are rooted. I advice you don't become rebellious because it is the spirit of witchcraft. Sometimes the devil will want to make you feel as if your respect is worship.That is the sign of that evill spirit called Rebellion, Which God almighty detest and detroned Lucifer from his post as the chief choirmaster. If you feel you are in a good church and you are rooted there, Plsssssssssssssssssssss don't feel that way. Their is a clear difference between WORSHIP and REPECT.

Delafruita:

@stilldude.i really appreciated frosbel's way of stating his point,he provided versesto which i responded.you have provided nothing except a lame point of "he is the son of God so he is God".so in your view the son of a farmer can and will always be a farmer,the son of a doctor will always be a doctor etc.

Bla bla bla. Your Analogy of the son of a farmer being a farmer doesn't work cos we are talking about gene not career or occupation. The son of a farmer can never become a goat. The rest of your post is just philosophy. Christianity is a faith thing . if you are not a christian you wouldn't understand because it is all spiritual. If you couldn't digest the sense in my earlier post, I guess, you won't understand John 1:1. I'll help you out a bit. The word there means Jesus.

@Joagbaje[There are christians who put rubbish on their face book. Things that don't edify. A pastor can guide them aright to use Facebook to preach the gospel rather. Will you call that idolising? It's leadership.quote][quote][/quote]

It seems you are CEC member which hapens to be my church . are you saying pastor Chris asked all members to quit facebook for kookos because of the above reason? naming it instructions?

firstly i do not believe in your imported jewish deity jehovah whom you call god. the same character who demanded two pigeons from jewish women every time they menstruate.
rebranded in rome and then brought to africa with your book which you call the word of god.
i beg you please try and put aside two hours of your life to research who wrote this WORD. you will be shocked
really you are entitled to believe what you like and it should be no business of mine. but you and your gang are becoming more aggressive and socially menacing and i think you need to be confronted with reality before you cause any more damage eg deceiving nigerians that you cure HIV etc. or blowing up any aicraft in the name of god.
the moment you are putting your hand into your pocket to service him regullarly he is an idol

beula2009:

@Joagbaje[There are christians who put rubbish on their face book. Things that don't edify. A pastor can guide them aright to use Facebook to preach the gospel rather. Will you call that idolising? It's leadership.

It seems you are CEC member which hapens to be my church . are you saying pastor Chris asked all members to quit facebook for kookos because of the above reason? naming it instructions?

Is that what I said? I only gave an instance on pastoral guidance . but for migrating from Facebook etc. It's a common sense thing. If you work with cocacola you should not wear pepsi face cap . We built other social websites by our visit and money. If your church has something that will be global , migrating with your loved ones to build it is a common sense. It is slave mentality to believe only in american products. Pastor chis is a trail blazer.Nigeria and Africa should be proud of him. I won't be surprised if other churches gets inspired to do likewise.[quote][/quote]

uglybetty:

For me respecting a man of God is different from worshiping him.  When you begin to pray in his name. eg, in the name of -------, or you bow down to him,or you you take them in your heart as your lord and saviour, your hope, your provider, your very existance your all and all, and your maker then you are worshiping them. But  respecting them as your fathers in faith is different.  you can respect and take them just like you respect your parents. you respect their authority as your spriritual head by obeying their order where you are rooted. I advice you don't become rebellious because it is the spirit of witchcraft. Sometimes the devil will want to make you feel as if your respect is worship.That is the sign of that evill spirit called Rebellion, Which God almighty detest and detroned Lucifer from his post as the chief choirmaster. If you feel you are in a good church and you are rooted there, Plsssssssssssssssssssss don't feel that way. Their is a clear difference between WORSHIP and REPECT.

[size=14pt]GBAM . . .[/size] You made the good point.

@stilldude.i am a christian,a good one?i can't say but i try.i fancy myself as someone who tries to know a lot about what i believe in not just accepoting what i am told.did you even read the details i added?do i have to DHL you the full text of the nicene creed of 325.do read it or google it yourself.its difficult to let go of a thought pattern that has been engraved into our subconscious from birth but do your research and get the facts.am sure you will tell me jesus was born on the 25th of december whatever AD and that christmmas is his birthday but it isnt so.the date for christmas and easter was fixed by the same council of nicea in 325AD

A man of God becomes an idol when the people he pastors begin to move their focus from God unto the man of God, when they directly or indirectly attribute the works done through him to him instead of God himself. And this is encouraged when the man of God notices this and does not make an effort to correct this, some xtains are babes and don't even know where to draw the line but the man of God must be their guide and not allow pride to make him appear as the main focus cos it's supposed to me on God almighty.

Did u 4got mattew 7:13-23 (pls read) & people manipulate others for thier own intrest

See, when the bible warned that pastors will preach certain way, it is because the people have developed itchy ears which want to hear "certain" things. So when the people begin to put a certain pastor at a high pedestal, most of them tend to enjoy it and grow to "demand' it.

Anyone who have ear, let him hear. The "Man" of God is a Man. God alone is to be worshipped and adored.


On a side note,

What is Christ Embassy's stance on the forthcoming elections? Are their leaders saying anything about participating in the elections. Remember that in order to set people free, we must care about their welfare. Except the church is still interested in keeping people in captivity, then they won't urge their members to participate fully and give them directions on choosing the best candidate.

[i]I don't think there is anything wrong in calling your pastor "daddy" or :our father in the Lord". I do agree that there is really a very thin line between respecting and worship men of God. After all, God says in the Bible that we should believe in His prophets so that we will prosper.
Not all the so called men of God are real, but they few ones out there deserves our respect (not worship: God says my glory shall no man share). You shall no them by their fruit. PLEASE CAN I GET A WITNESS IN THE HOUSE CONCERNING PASTOR E.A. ADEBOYE AND BISHOP DAVID OYEDEPO


u sure do have a witness in the house. I know some members do take it too far by worshiping them but the truth remains that that these men of God needs to be respected PASTOR E.A. ADEBOYE AND BISHOP DAVID OYEDEPO

^^^
And what have they done to deserve this respect Last I knew both of them are involved in manipulating the gospel for filthy personal gain.

KunleOshob:

^^^
And what have they done to deserve this respect Last I knew both of them are involved in manipulating the gospel for filthy personal gain.

Evidence please or forever hold your peace

@Azibaula
They both preach tithing which as been proven and established beyond any iota
of reasonable doubt to be a fraudulent manipulation of scripture for filthy
gain.

@kunleoshob.anybody can say something is true or false.it comes with the turf of free speech as guaranteed in the constituition.however,there's something called the burden of proof which now becomes your responsibility.what proof do you have that tithing is a wily manipulation of scripture?personally am not that great at the tithe part but i do believe after some study that tithing is an integral part of the christian faith.malachi is as clear on it as can possibly be.your turn

@delafruita
You are obviously new on this forum else you would know that mordern day tithe doctrine which is different from the biblical one is a complete fraud. I can't write much now as I am responding from phone but for starters before I engage you in this debate I want you to go and STUDY two bible passages that deal with the subject, we can then take it up from there. STUDY deut 14:22-29 & heb 7:5-19 for starters then we can take it from there. The popular malachi passage would prove to be fraudulently manipulated by the time we are through.

Delafruita:

I do believe after some study that tithing is an integral part of the christian faith.malachi is as clear on it as can possibly be.

Never thought we could see eye to eye on any issue.

Can those who speak against the institution of tithing give us one scripture where God decree an end to tithing

@stilldude.that is the way of the world.somethimes we agree,sometimes we don't

@kunleoshob.thanks for the references.i'd check them out