@Ugwumba

Why waste your time with people who are dishonest?. . .You can never get anything honest from these guys (Debosky, Iyke-D and Denex). These same guys asking for proof as to how much OBJ has stolen won't hesitate to call IBB a thief.

Donzman:

@Ugwumba

Why waste your time with people who are dishonest?. . .You can never get anything honest from these guys (Debosky, Iyke-D and Denex). These same guys asking for proof as to how much OBJ has stolen won't hesitate to call IBB a thief.

Donzman, I know them, know how they work, know where their sentiments lie, and never hesitate to take them on.

Their positions, as you point out, are usually hypocritical, lack any supporting data - my surprise is GNature (who I enjoy reading), who while not defending OBJ, in his attempt to condemn Shagari and IBB totally misses the point.

I do not, and, will not, because OBJ is considered a lesser crook, absolve him from this mess, as he was afterall the first post-civil war Head of State (a point most of them miss) to become stupendously wealthy.

I dey go sleep. When dem wake and have vented their anger at me, I will start where I paused.

Donzman:

@Ugwumba

Why waste your time with people who are dishonest?. . .You can never get anything honest from these guys (Debosky, Iyke-D and Denex). These same guys asking for proof as to how much OBJ has stolen won't hesitate to call IBB a thief.

Abi ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Ugwumba:

Donzman, I know them, know how they work, know where their sentiments lie, and never hesitate to take them on.

Their positions, as you point out, are usually hypocritical, lack any supporting data - my surprise is GNature (who I enjoy reading), who while not defending OBJ, in his attempt to condemn Shagari and IBB totally misses the point.

I do not, and, will not, because OBJ is considered a lesser crook, absolve him from this mess, as he was afterall the first post-civil war Head of State (a point most of them miss) to become stupendously wealthy.

I dey go sleep. When them wake and have vented their anger at me, I will start where I paused.

You don try Ugwumba! For once let them see wetin pass them!  They have chased me to bed many times! That denex is something else.  Debosky/Davidylan duo nko? Oh migosh!  GNature and Iyke-D----------Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!  Once again I say Igweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!  Na you biko. I squat and bow for you!  Sleep well and I am praying you have more strength for all your Nairaland life time and your real life time to keep dealing with these OBJ goons!  The road is harzardous and the journey to the promised Nigeria land is tedious on Nairaland.  Sleep tight my brother!

MILITIA:

You don try Ugumba! For once let them see wetin pass them! They have chased me to bed many times! Once again I say Igweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Na you biko. Sleep well and I am praying you have more strength for all you Nairaland life time and your real life time to keep dealing with these OBJ goons! Sleep tight my brother!

Do you really do better than hop around making "smart" comments? you signed up only 2 months ago and you already have 1000 posts and over.
What have you brought into this debate besides egging others on and instigating bad blood?

davidylan:

Do you really do better than hop around making "smart" comments? you signed up only 2 months ago and you already have 1000 posts and over.
What have you brought into this debate besides egging others on and instigating bad blood?

Oko ko ko!  See another one oh!   I beg direct all inquiries to the one and only "Ugwumba"!  At least I am "egging and instigating" good blood! So you are counting eh?  500 post per month!  I will even pass Seun and Hot angel put together by Xmas.  If you guys no kill me first! JEALOUSY JELOMA! What do you have against gals in politics section? heh?

and em em back to the topic of the thread (and by the way, I did enjoy reading all the economic stats, though
some of it were convoluted and self contradictory at times )

Oh, where were we again? I thought we were simply discussing the mischief of Sun's latest expose as to how
Obasanjo'sworth ballooned from a mere N20,000 to N180Billion with no shred of evidence at all except for the
guy's intelligence sources (sic)?

The bottomline is that we have produced as leaders corrupt individuals, inept and ill-equiped for the business of governance. No one is exonerating OBJ, he had 8 yrs to at least make a mark, he failed miserably.

But the bulk of the blame for our present rot must be laid at the feet of Sheu Shagari and Babangida.

Ugwumba thanks for the lessen on 'coincident' and 'strongly correlated' events. You insist that the 77-79 borrowings constitute the bulk of the loans, of course definition of 'bulk' being at your discretion. where have you seen me at any single point deny or defend Obj based on 'Omowa' (whatever that means) which i believe implies supporting him because he is Yoruba? I have not made any claims to his innocence, what I would like to get to the bottom of however, is where the idea that the debt problem was as a result of his initial lending.

the only thing you have conclusively said is that he was the first to make such loans from the capital market, which in itself cannot be adjudged to be a bad thing, it is the end result or output from that action that determines its overall benefit/impact. You have yet to refute my assertion that the greatest quantum of enduring infrastructural development in the country stemmed from the period 75-79 or thereabouts, most of which were never improved upon or increased, leading to the current conundrum we find ourselves in.

also note, I have not stated that he is not corrupt, neither did I say he did not corruptly enrich himself. We have discussed the merits or otherwise of an asset declaration and i have stated that given the new precedent set by Yar'adua, it becomes, in my opinion, imperative for other leaders after him to follow his path. Obj as a former leader has no true moral need to do so! the foreign banks (where most of the loot is usually stashed) gave him a clean bill of health more than 3 times during his administration. obviously for the andy uba saga there are some shady events as well as concerning the PTDF and Transcorp that are unresolved.

I still believe that your correlating loans to poor GDP is incorrect. has it occured to you that the poor GDP growth was the reason to procure those loans to prop up or jump start the economy? like I said earlier, I am no economist, but your linking loans to sudden GDP drops strikes me as very unlikely indeed.

in fact the problems occasioning the GDP fall in the Shagari years are well documented, and resulted from rampant inflation, escessive importation and other sharp practices by government, which would have taken place regardless of the loans.

I am not absolving Obj of anything, I believe your premise that his borrowings set the stage for our current problems is incorrect. poor management and subsequent squandermania during the following periods, culminating in the infamous SAP after the boom had gone bust are the basis of our current difficulties.

Kai! See them oh! Please you guys are disturbing me! Ugwunba is "not on seat"! Please check back in the morning! Una no dey sleep? Haba!

@ Davidylan
You are telling me I have over 1000 posts in 2 months. No be so my sweetheart, 9ja4eva, take get about 12000 abi na 14000 posts just by typing LOL 12000 or 14000 times on Nairaland? You see with your long long posts, if you had spaced them out like the sharp guy 9ja4eva, you guys would have reached 1,000,000+ post by now! Una no know book at all!

Ugwumba:


That a debt portfolio including OBJ and none-OBJ loans were being serviced at ALL times without servicing much of the OBJ loans is NOT A CONTRADICTION. Let me know if it is clearer.

I would need to see proof that the $2billion loan taken by obj was indeed at 8%. I would like to know the timeframe the loan was supposed to be paid back, the schedule of payments, and the months (or timeframe) in which payments were not made. This is the only way I can come to terms with your claim regarding this loan. Unfortunately, you are unable to provide any accessible source of your claim.

Ugwumba:


On how Shagari et al could continue borrowing without paying back much from existing loans - this is a fact, because at every point we borrowed we were still in debt, otherwise our debt portfolio could not have grown so large (given that the sums actually borrowed by Shagari & IBB amounted to about $15 billion).

Like Iyke-D said, you are misinterpreting these figures for the sole purpose of winning your argument. When you list the debts incurred by Shagari & IBB, you always list their principal loan amounts, $9 b and $ 6b, however, when you mention OBJ's, you add his interest, ie, $2 billion (original loan) + $13.98 billion (interest) = $15.98 billion. Again, were the loans incurred by Shagari & IBB interest free loans ? Why are you just mentioning the principal borrowed and excluding their interest ? I think I know why. If you do, then your claim that the chunk of the $35 debt were incurred by OBJ would crumble and you don't want that, which is understandable 

It is very difficult for me to accept your claim that the $2 billion borrowed in 1978 had ballooned to $15.98 billion by 2004. You have admitted yourself that this loan was serviced after he left office, so tying $15.98 billion to the $2 billion loan is a bit disturbing.

And for the record Ugwumba, I have good reasons not to rely on the way you interprete economic data. Recall you mentioned earlier that the "first major slump" in GDP growth in Nigeria took place while OBJ was in office, but I brought out the world bank figures to dispute your claim. You also mentioned that the trend in declining GDP growth rate in Nigeria started from Obasanjo's administration. Again, I proved you wrong because Nigeria witnessed growth in GDP two years after the slump in 1978. The world bank figures clearly showed that the declining trend in GDP growth started and was sustained throughout Shagari's administration. Everytime I had access to the data you quote, I have been able to discredit the way you were interpreting it.

Iyke-D:

I did enjoy reading all the economic stats, though some of it were convoluted and self contradictory at times )

Tell me about it 

davidylan:

The bottomline is that we have produced as leaders corrupt individuals, inept and ill-equiped for the business of governance. No one is exonerating OBJ, he had 8 years to at least make a mark, he failed miserably.

But the bulk of the blame for our present rot must be laid at the feet of Sheu Shagari and Babangida.

You have hit it on the nail !  I am not absolving obj at all; but the bulk of the debt burden we got ourselves into lies on the govts of Shagari & Babangida. Period.

@Debosky and Davidylan

What proof do you have that Shehu Shagari and IBB are the major contributors to the Nigeria we have today?. . .What exactly do you have on them that proves that they did worse than OBJ/

Where una dey, I don wake. 

GNature:

I would need to see proof that the $2billion loan taken by obj was indeed at 8%. I would like to know the timeframe the loan was supposed to be paid back, the schedule of payments, and the months (or timeframe) in which payments were not made. This is the only way I can come to terms with your claim regarding this loan. Unfortunately, you are unable to provide any verifiable source of your claim.

Like Iyke-D said, you are misinterpreting these figures for the sole purpose of winning your argument. When you list the debts incurred by Shagari & IBB, you always list their principal loan amounts, $9 b and $ 6b, however, when you mention OBJ's, you add his interest, ie, $2 billion (original loan) + $13.98 billion (interest) = $15.98 billion. Again, were the loans incurred by Shagari & IBB interest free loans ? Why are you just mentioning the principal borrowed and excluding their interest ? I think I know why. If you do, then your claim that the chunk of the $35 debt were incurred by OBJ would crumble and you don't want that, which is understandable 

It is very difficult for me to accept your claim that the $2 billion borrowed in 1978 had ballooned to $15.98 billion by 2004. You have admitted yourself that this loan was serviced after he left office, so tying $15.98 billion to the $2 billion loan is a bit disturbing.

And for the record Ugwumba, I have good reasons not to rely on the way you interprete economic data. Recall you mentioned earlier that the "first major slump" in GDP growth in Nigeria took place while OBJ was in office, but I brought out the world bank figures to dispute your claim. You also mentioned that the trend in declining GDP growth rate in Nigeria started from Obasanjo's administration. Again, I proved you wrong because Nigeria witnessed growth in GDP two years after the slump in 1978. The world bank figures clearly showed that the declining trend in GDP growth started and was sustained throughout Shagari's administration. Everytime I had access to the data you quote, I have been able to discredit the way you were interpreting it.

Tell me about it 

You have hit it on the nail !  I am not absolving obj at all; but the bulk of the debt burden we got ourselves into lies on the govts of Shagari & Babangida. Period.

You may continue priding yourself on debunking something, but if you were my student you (and Iyke-D) would fail woefully in how you miss the essence of the stats.

1. You hang on 8% (which still remains my educated estimate from the references I gave you), and $15.98 billion which I am rather tired of telling you was used to address someones rather stupid question of how $2 billion over 27-years could result in a 'substantial portion of a $35 billion' debt. I TIRE TO CONTINUE MAKING THIS POINT.

If you have done any research, please let me know what international capital market rates for high risk loans to developing countries was in 1977. QUOTE YOUR OWN NUMBERS.

2. The World bank GDP growth rates show that starting from the oil boom years, THE FIRST MAJOR SLUMP IN OUR GDP GROWTH OCCURRED IN 1978 DURING OBJ's watch. If you wish to add the 1970 - 1975 data, when we were recovering from a civil war and the 3Rs dominated our economic performance, then feel free to do so.

3. As you will discover, when you properly research this material, the debts by Shagari and IBB were also a substantial part of the overall $35 billion though overall interest rates were lower (because of a better mix of borrowing instruments and institutions). I hesitate to quote a % seeing how you make use of this. SO IF SHAGARI & IBB ARE CULPABLE, HOW, AGAIN, DOES THIS EXONERATE OBJ, WHO HISTORY RECORDS AS THE FIRST LEADER TO TAKE US DOWN THIS PATH OF JUMBO, FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE LOANS. Why did his predecessor governments not do this?

4. Finally, on debosky's infrastructural development comments, it is noteworthy that while Gowon and OBJ can point to a better value/spend ratio than SHAGARI and IBB, Gowon left office a relatively poor man while OBJ CREATED THE ERA OF MEGA-RICH MILITARY OFFICERS (DANJUMA, SHEHU YARADUA & HIMSELF).

Isn't this, afterall, the main gist of this thread (again please stop hanging unto 20,000 or 180 billion, 8%, 15.98billion etc.) viz - OBJ HAS ALWAYS LEFT OFFICE FAR RICHER THAN HE ENTERED, ALLOWED HIS COHORTS TO STEAL, AND WANTS TO PORTRAY HIMSELF AS OUR MESSIAH.

UNLIKE YOU, I CONSIDER OBJ AS PART OF THIS PROBLEM (to what measure is arguable - but first culprit and major contributor come to mind).

EXONERATE HIM? WHY SHOULD WE.

@Ugwumba

They do know the main point being raised in the thread but they choose to nitpick on every number and missing zero just to prove their point that OBJ is not bad. These same set of people cannot prove that Shagari or IBB did any worse.The music playing now is that OBJ is bad but not as bad as Shagari and IBB so we should take it easy on him or something, we all love Nigeria, nonsense!

If you love accurate statistics so much, why not produce the numbers to prove your point that IBB and Shagari are the worse than OBJ?

Ugwumba:

OBJ HAS ALWAYS LEFT OFFICE FAR RICHER THAN HE ENTERED, ALLOWED HIS COHORTS TO STEAL, AND WANTS TO PORTRAY HIMSELF AS OUR MESSIAH.

WORD

Can anyone dispute this fact?

Donzman:

@Ugwumba

They do know the main point being raised in the thread but they choose to nitpick on every number and missing zero just to prove their point that OBJ is not bad. These same set of people cannot prove that Shagari or IBB did any worse.The music playing now is that OBJ is bad but not as bad as Shagari and IBB so we should take it easy on him or something, we all love Nigeria, nonsense!

If you love accurate statistics so much, why not produce the numbers to prove your point that IBB and Shagari are the worse than OBJ?

Donzman, they are 'serial debunkers(?)'. I have thrown up this challenge and possibly the only one of the group who might (a remote possibility) take it up is GNature.

Let him, instead of disagreeing, come up with his own breakdown of lending instruments and rates from 1977 - 2004 and I can then play the 'debunk with no supporting information' role.

OBJ apologists, all of them (including those who say they are not, but just insist he did not steal as much as Abacha and IBB).

We are always quick to come to a consensus that IBB and Shagari were thiefs without asking for evidence; even after 8 years of OBJ/EFCC deep digging corruption of the past, they couldn't find the two of them guilty OBJ even told the public that anyone that has evidence against them should come out and no one did.

Now they claimed OBJ made himself stupendously rich while in power and you people are now asking for evidence why the double standard?

Anyone that calls IBB and SHagari a thief despite not having the needed evidence and tries to exonerate OBJ stating lack of evidence is a two mouthed hypocrite

dayokanu:

Anyone that calls IBB and SHagari a thief despite not having the needed evidence and tries to exonerate OBJ stating lack of evidence is a two mouthed hypocrite

and, they are many of them out there.

@Ugwumba

You may be an economic guru and you are right, I would probably flunk out of your economic class, professor.

Isn't this, afterall, the main gist of this thread (again please stop hanging unto 20,000 or 180 billion, 8%, 15.98billion etc.) viz - OBJ HAS ALWAYS LEFT OFFICE FAR RICHER THAN HE ENTERED, ALLOWED HIS COHORTS TO STEAL, AND WANTS TO PORTRAY HIMSELF AS OUR MESSIAH.

UNLIKE YOU, I CONSIDER OBJ AS PART OF THIS PROBLEM (to what measure is arguable - but first culprit and major contributor come to mind).

EXONERATE HIM? WHY SHOULD WE.

However, I stand corrected that all the stats you have thrown about have little or nothing to do with this topic.
I am afraid but in your haste to dazzle non-economic minds like us, you flunked a simple a test yourself. Except
I am delusional, I still don't see how OBJ being the first to take a loan on behalf of the country translates to his
being worth N20,000 in 1998 and N180billion now - that is still what the topic states, not whether was he a saint
or not or whose loans affected the country the worse.

Really, there is no sainthood in Nigerian leadership as they are complicit one way or another, some more so than
others. That is not nit-picking, we are simply saying stop the sensational journalism that is all too common with
Sun and do some fact checking for your readers.

Free Tip
======
At the very bottom, one can do a google search of Nairaland - I challenge anyone to google Iyke-D and show me
were I gave Obasanjo a clean bill of health. The closest you will get is my claim that he is still the better of all the
morons we have had for leaders. If you prove me otherwise, I will eat my words and re-state my position.

Ugwunba my brother goodmorning oh!  I see you are battling GNature and Iyke-D on the day shift rotation?   D-ebosky, D-enex and D-avidylan are sleeping and were up till almost 3AM just gassing as usual!  Please save some of your energy, statistics and evidence for the "" group of OBJ goons for the night shift rotation oh!   Carry come my brother, I dey your back! Please contact Donzman for backup since you will need it greatly!

I refuse to debate with someone who claims that of 12%, 53% and 35%, the 12% is the bulk.

The Goddess I serve will not permit me engage in a debate with any such technocrat.

Peace be unto you all.

denex:

I refuse to debate with someone who claims that of 12%, 53% and 35%, the 12% is the bulk.

The Goddess I serve will not permit me engage in a debate with any such technocrat.

Peace be unto you all.

It would also demean me to 'debate' with you (since you have so far contributed nothing sensible here).

Below is a post from you, where you argue macro-economic theory with an intelligence only reserved for the 'best and brightest'. Your attempt at sarcasm is rather amusing.

[/quote]
@MILITIA

Yes ma. You are right. You see there is this Club Freedom investment, some kind of Ponzi Program.

You invest $220 and get $8,000 + $6,000 in just a couple of months. That's an investment multiplied by 70 within a year.

So it is certain that Yar'Adua investing N12 million in 2006 will yield N850 million by early 2007.
Nigerians invest in these financial deals all the time and smile to the bank. So why not Yar'Adua?

It is just unfortunate that a lot of his assets were tied down in bonds and shares. If he had "wisely" invested the whole N150 million in Club Freedom or Egold over the years, the man would have made N10 billion each year. So today Yar'Adua would have been declaring N80 billion CASH today.

I'm even hoping Yar'Adua can invest Nigeria's $45 billion foreign reserves in FOREX TRADING, E-GOLD and CLUB FREEDOM so that by the end of the year, Nigeria can declare $3 trillion foreign reserves.

I wonder why the CBN hasn't thought of this. That stupid Soludo.
[quote]

I took some pains to read previous comments from you, and apart from an arrogance, clearly rooted in ignorance, you contribute little else.
My gain if you hide behind this. PS - percentages are yours.

I wish you and your Goddess well.

Iyke-D:

@Ugwumba

You may be an economic guru and you are right, I would probably flunk out of your economic class, professor.

However, I stand corrected that all the stats you have thrown about have little or nothing to do with this topic.
I am afraid but in your haste to dazzle non-economic minds like us, you flunked a simple a test yourself. Except
I am delusional, I still don't see how OBJ being the first to take a loan on behalf of the country translates to his
being worth N20,000 in 1998 and N180billion now - that is still what the topic states, not whether was he a saint
or not or whose loans affected the country the worse.

Really, there is no sainthood in Nigerian leadership as they are complicit one way or another, some more so than
others. That is not nit-picking, we are simply saying stop the sensational journalism that is all too common with
Sun and do some fact checking for your readers.

Free Tip
======
At the very bottom, one can do a google search of Nairaland - I challenge anyone to google Iyke-D and show me
were I gave Obasanjo a clean bill of health. The closest you will get is my claim that he is still the better of all the
morons we have had for leaders. If you prove me otherwise, I will eat my words and re-state my position.

My point is that there is no 'better' in a bunch of crooks and OBJ is 'in with the crowd'.

As you point out, the main issue is really whether OBJ is substantially wealthier now than in 1999.

Because of your fixation on numbers, for your own purpose, you fail to realize that the gist of my argument is this:

1. Our leaders impoverish us and enrich themselves, and the degree to which they have done this is irrelevant, and even if you choose to make this relevant, OBJ will still be in the list of corrupt and corrupting leaders.

2. OBJ is intricately part of 1. above and I have used the information provided to point this out.

3. Knowing some of you, from your past posts, it was clear to me that if I avoided producing some figures and historical facts to buttress this, you would have claimed they were no facts to establish OBJ's culpability in the debt mess we found ourselves in.
So, there has been no attempt to, as you so quaintly put it, 'dazzle you'.

4. The way you have chosen to 'debunk' the information, shows that, irrespective of what is presented to you, your minds are made up, and you only ask for facts in the hope there are none.

5. In your defense, I have not read you exonerating OBJ, but I have read you cleverly defending him by claiming he is 'better' than the others.

OK Prof Ugwumba, you win, Obj is part of the problem, the impact of his borrowings is what i was focusing on, not the 'main' issue according to you

He has become richer due to his stay in government?, YES

The crux of my exchanges with you (granted a little tangential to the topic as a whole) dwelt mainly on the subject of linking loans+GDP drop = Obj's bad fiscal performance, an assertion I still disagree with. it may well be true that he enriched himself and other generals, for the upteenth time, I have made no attempts to exonerate him, just to test the validity of some of the statements you used to back up an otherwise accurate conclusion.

If you go through my posts, I only turn up as an 'apologist' in your terminology when I applaud what I see as certain positive steps he took in his time at the helm, particularly in areas such as power generation. You may prefer a blanket condemnation of everything he (and others) ever touched, that is your perogative, I see nothing new to be garnered from that, i would rather check to see if specific actions can be looked at for their own merits or demerits.

The story might be true, though exagerated, you know. All we need do is simple calculation. Let us evaluate Baba's assets. Such as otta farm, (dont forget that farm is today making excees of $0.1m profit every month, luckily Baba said it with his own mouth while trying to discourage youths from reading accounting and politics) he also had other undisclosed 'lucrative farms' then, his landed properties. Him billion naira library. There also billions in transcorp and other proxy shares. We may even discovered IBB is better in comparison. In fact we have more work to do. Just evaluate them. And you'll get some near the amount if not the exact.

Well all these explain why his goverment failed. How can you preach against corruption while you are not clean. Only in Nigeria, these people must think we are dumb.

@Ugwuba

I was making a mockery of all those Nigerians who believed in these PONZI system.

I really hope you were joking too when you declared that 12%, 53% and 35%, 12% made up the bulk.

denex:

@Ugwuba

I was making a mockery of all those Nigerians who believed in these PONZI system.

I really hope you were joking too when you declared that 12%, 53% and 35%, 12% made up the bulk.

Quote where I mention these percentages or shame on you. Like I said earlier, percentages are yours.

You see, I understood your sarcasm in the PONZIN thing, but used this to show you how you could very easily be misrepresented (knew you would 'catch the bait'), as you tried to misrepresent the numbers and the purpose they served.

debosky:

OK Prof Ugwumba, you win, Obj is part of the problem, the impact of his borrowings is what i was focusing on, not the 'main' issue according to you

He has become richer due to his stay in government?, YES

The crux of my exchanges with you (granted a little tangential to the topic as a whole) dwelt mainly on the subject of linking loans+GDP drop = Obj's bad fiscal performance, an assertion I still disagree with. it may well be true that he enriched himself and other generals, for the upteenth time, I have made no attempts to exonerate him, just to test the validity of some of the statements you used to back up an otherwise accurate conclusion.

If you go through my posts, I only turn up as an 'apologist' in your terminology when I applaud what I see as certain positive steps he took in his time at the helm, particularly in areas such as power generation. You may prefer a blanket condemnation of everything he (and others) ever touched, that is your perogative, I see nothing new to be garnered from that, i would rather check to see if specific actions can be looked at for their own merits or demerits.

In the first part, I started celebrating your conclusion, to mean that you now appear to have understood me.

Then I saw your quote on power generation. If OBJ's performance IN 8-YEARS (a total of 11-years at the helm) of leadership is the current power situation in Nigeria, then you see why I continue to insist people like you are OBJ apologists.

To ensure you do not think I conclude OBJ has done no good, below is my personal opinion on the top 7 issues.

CORRUPTION - 30% (failures include Peter Odili, Atiku, Stella, OGD etc. and OBJ himself)
TELECOMS - 50% (this was however a moving train that could not be stopped as most of our WA countries were well ahead of us).
POWER - 10% (considering all the noise and money spent, we are still well behind SA in generation and Ghana in distribution and permanence).
CRONYISM - 100% (the Transcorp, Dangote, oil-block licences etc. fiascos)
DEBT REPAYMENT - 80% (the remaining 20% is his inability to sustain reforms, my original argument that he was part of the problem).
POVERTY ALLEVIATION - 5% (70% of Nigerians live under $1/ day and we have severally been listed among the poorest countries in the world).
INFRASTRUCTURE (others, except power) - 10% (with the expenditure on roads, I understand that the South-Eastern, South-south link roads are still a disaster, water is a big joke, our airports are 'death lanes' - {and please no jokes about this - I lost my godson in the Sosoliso crash} etc.).

Not an admirable scorecard, and yet he leaves office a much wealthier man.

Iyke-D:

@Ugwumba

You may be an economic guru and you are right, I would probably flunk out of your economic class, professor.
However, I stand corrected that all the stats you have thrown about have little or nothing to do with this topic.[/b]I am afraid but in your haste to dazzle non-economic minds like us, you flunked a simple a test yourself. Except

I am delusional, I still don't see how OBJ being the first to take a loan on behalf of the country translates to his
[b]being worth N20,000 in 1998 and N180billion now - that is still what the topic states, not whether was he a saint
or not or whose loans affected the country the worse.

Really, there is no sainthood in Nigerian leadership as they are complicit one way or another, some more so than
others. That is not nit-picking, we are simply saying stop the sensational journalism that is all too common with
Sun and do some fact checking for your readers.

Free Tip
======
At the very bottom, one can do a google search of Nairaland - I challenge anyone to google Iyke-D and show me
were I gave Obasanjo a clean bill of health. The closest you will get is my claim that he is still the better of all the
morons we have had for leaders. If you prove me otherwise, I will eat my words and re-state my position.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Level don change! WTF?

Ugwumba:

Quote where I mention these percentages or shame on you. Like I said earlier, percentages are yours.

You see, I understood your sarcasm in the PONZIN thing, but used this to show you how you could very easily be misrepresented (knew you would 'catch the bait'), as you tried to misrepresent the numbers and the purpose they served.

To ensure you do not think I conclude OBJ has done no good, below is my personal opinion on the top 7 issues.

CORRUPTION - 30% (failures include Peter Odili, Atiku, Stella, OGD etc. and OBJ himself)
TELECOMS - 50% (this was however a moving train that could not be stopped as most of our WA countries were well ahead of us).
POWER - 10% (considering all the noise and money spent, we are still well behind SA in generation and Ghana in distribution and permanence).
CRONYISM - 100% (the Transcorp, Dangote, oil-block licences etc. fiascos)
DEBT REPAYMENT - 80% (the remaining 20% is his inability to sustain reforms, my original argument that he was part of the problem).
POVERTY ALLEVIATION - 5% (70% of Nigerians live under $1/ day and we have severally been listed among the poorest countries in the world).
INFRASTRUCTURE (others, except power) - 10% (with the expenditure on roads, I understand that the South-Eastern, South-south link roads are still a disaster, water is a big joke, our airports are 'death lanes' - {and please no jokes about this - I lost my godson in the Sosoliso crash} etc.).
Not an admirable scorecard, and yet he leaves office a much wealthier man.

Chai!  It is good to let him taste just a small dose of his own medicine!   My belle dey "tweet" well well oh! You still need more evidence!  Oya Ugwumba and Donzman---------fire on!

denex:

@Ugwuba
I was making a mockery of all those Nigerians who believed in these PONZI system.
I really hope you were joking too when you declared that 12%, 53% and 35%, 12% made up the bulk.

Na only you sabi make mockery?

debosky:

OK Prof Ugwumba, you win, Obj is part of the problem, the impact of his borrowings is what i was focusing on, not the 'main' issue according to you

He has become richer due to his stay in government?, YES
The crux of my exchanges with you (granted a little tangential to the topic as a whole) dwelt mainly on the subject of linking loans+GDP drop = Obj's bad fiscal performance, an assertion I still disagree with. it may well be true that he enriched himself and other generals, for the upteenth time, I have made no attempts to exonerate him, just to test the validity of some of the statements you used to back up an otherwise accurate conclusion.

If you go through my posts, I only turn up as an 'apologist' in your terminology when I applaud what I see as certain positive steps he took in his time at the helm, particularly in areas such as power generation. You may prefer a blanket condemnation of everything he (and others) ever touched, that is your perogative, I see nothing new to be garnered from that, i would rather check to see if specific actions can be looked at for their own merits or demerits.

You don't say!   You can actually concede to defeat?  Do you have a fever?

Ugwumba:

Donzman, they are 'serial debunkers(?)'. I have thrown up this challenge and possibly the only one of the group who might (a remote possibility) take it up is GNature.

Let him, instead of disagreeing, come up with his own breakdown of lending instruments and rates from 1977 - 2004 and I can then play the 'debunk with no supporting information' role.

OBJ apologists, all of them (including those who say they are not, but just insist he did not steal as much as Abacha and IBB).

He he he he he he! I dey laff!  Cunning man die, cunning man bury am!  Evidence, evidence and more evidence!  You need to give them more oh Ugwumba!  They are never tired of evidence!


And where is Davidylan hiding? Please come out and receive you own share of the "evidence" whooping! Why are you missing in action? Na my body you dey get power? This is no time to be MIA oh! I guess you are cooking up your own evidence! Una don see who pass una? Gosh, am I having fun or what! There is really a God! A truly "miracle working God"! he he he he he! I say come out! I command you to come out Davidylan!

What I see here are 2 eccentric individuals.

1. Ugwuba who has just got a new ID and rather than climb the ladder to where he should be, is trying to employ 50 CENT, G-UNIT/EEDRIS ABDULKARIM techniques to gain popularity rather than learning the ropes. Please let us abandon this cheap publicity stunt.

2. MILITIA who is out to build up maximum posts in the shortest time possible. Without giving regard that this is slowing down the portal and aimlessly consume cyberspace.

Goodluck to you all.

denex:

What I see here are 2 eccentric individuals.

1. Ugwuba who has just got a new ID and rather than climb the ladder to where he should be, is trying to employ 50 CENT, G-UNIT/EEDRIS ABDULKARIM techniques to gain popularity rather than learning the ropes. Please let us abandon this cheap publicity stunt.

2. MILITIA who is out to build up maximum posts in the shortest time possible. Without giving regard that this is slowing down the portal and aimlessly consume cyberspace.

Goodluck to you all.

Whlie envy might be healthy, Jealousy is poisonous! Goodluck to you too! Are you accusing me of cheating? Dear Lord! Just because I am you "elder" on Nairaland with "postage" numbers does not mean you should "diss" me ok? My "Vrother", I beg go sleep. You need am!

Ugwumba:

TELECOMS - 50% (this was however a moving train that could not be stopped as most of our WA countries were well ahead of us).

Thank God someone else realises this.

denex:

What I see here are 2 eccentric individuals.

1. Ugwuba who has just got a new ID and rather than climb the ladder to where he should be, is trying to employ 50 CENT, G-UNIT/EEDRIS ABDULKARIM techniques to gain popularity rather than learning the ropes. Please let us abandon this cheap publicity stunt.

2. MILITIA who is out to build up maximum posts in the shortest time possible. Without giving regard that this is slowing down the portal and aimlessly consume cyberspace.

Goodluck to you all.

You must be new on Nairaland, because if you check I have been here since August 2006. Although not one of the oldest members, I humbly will state that I am better known by the more serious posters (GNature, Chxta-where you dey?, Iyke-D {retain my respect, even when I disagree), Odeku, Seun, ZuluN, babyosisi, angel101, toshman, TOH, Donzman, Militia - who you seem to dislike, Sista, WesleyA, Uche2nna, davidylan {my arch-enemy based on his religious sentiments only - but still intelligent}, debosky, mukina2 and a host of others of your generation).

Take it from me, at 44, going on 45, with over 23 years in academia and industry, why should I want to gain cheap popularity from adolescents like you.

I use Nairaland (and a number of other Nigerian and African fora) to educate your ilk on leadership, or the lack of it in Africa, with the hope that your generation will help in moving our great continent forward.

Your loss, if you turn this into a circus.

PS - why waste my breath: see you just registered a few months ago and are attempting to gain 'distance' by posting as much nonesense as you can.

Your Freudian slip is appreciated.

@MILITIA

Hey! look at me! I'm posting too. We're making 100,000 posts together. Partners right?