I don't want to argue anything, I only want to understand your views
John 5:28-29 NWT
"28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice
29 and come out , those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "

The Questions:
1. ALL those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice!
To my understanding ALL means both the righteous and the unrighteous: Who are the ALL referred to here?
2. Those who hear His voice will come out!
To my understanding, coming out means RESURRECTION of both the good and the bad: Do Jehovah's witness believe in the resurrection of the unrighteous?
3. Those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "
To my understanding, there is judgement of the unrighteous AFTER this resurrection: Do Jehovah's witness believe in the judgement of the unrighteous?

If you agree that there would be resurrection of the ungodly, how will Jehovah kill them again: will it be in the lake of fire?

Note:
Please, I'm not for any argument on this.
Thanks

shadeyinka:

2. Those who hear His voice will come out!
To my understanding, coming out means RESURRECTION of both the good and the bad: Do Jehovah's witness believe in the resurrection of the unrighteous?
3. Those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "

Jesus Christ said that only His sheep, those who believe in Him hear to voice. This means that all those who will be raised are those who believe in Him, righteous and unrighteous(sheep and goats in His flock) alike.

shadeyinka:

The Questions:
1. ALL those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice!
To my understanding ALL means both the righteous and the unrighteous: Who are the ALL referred to here?

Point of emphasis: "Memorial tomb"
It's only those in God's memory book that will come back to life not everyone.

2. Those who hear His voice will come out!
To my understanding, coming out means RESURRECTION of both the good and the bad: Do Jehovah's witness believe in the resurrection of the unrighteous?

The unrighteous that will be resurrected aren't those God destroyed Himself like Adam, Eve, Cain, Nimrod, Noah's contemporaries, Sodom and Gomorrah, Pharaoh and so on. All those ones are dead forever. But people who searched for God with all their hearts but couldn't find Him simply because God only dealt with the nation of Israel. Such individuals will be remembered for their good deeds but they remain unrighteous before God because they didn't know the righteousness of God!
So God will bring them back to life to be taught God's righteousness by Christians living on planet earth during Christ's 1,000 year's reign!

3. Those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "
To my understanding, there is judgement of the unrighteous AFTER this resurrection: Do Jehovah's witness believe in the judgement of the unrighteous?[/b]

After their release from the grave, Christians on planet earth will start teaching them all the commandments of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Whoever yield will live up to the 1,000 years but some will not accept Christ's Counsels they will feel it's their former form of righteousness that will continue to keep them alive so after 100 years of their resurrection they will die again permanently! Isaiah 65:20

If you agree that there would be resurrection of the ungodly, how will Jehovah kill them again: will it be in the lake of fire?

After the 1,000 years reign of Christ everyone would have become Perfect like Adam and Eve so nobody can say "it's Adam's sin that made me a sinner" because Jesus' blood and wise counsels would have washed away all our sinful nature. Then Satan will be released from the state of inactivity and he will go into action again to mislead people just as he did with the perfect man (Adam) God's word foretold that billions will fall for Satan's bait again.
That's when God will destroy Satan and all those who follow him forever! Revelations 20:7-10
May you have PEACE!

Kobojunkie:
Jesus Christ said that only His sheep, those who believe in Him hear to voice. This means that all those who will be raised are those who believe in Him, righteous and unrighteous(sheep and goats in His flock) alike.

My dear Kobojunkie,
I do not think you are a JW, your answer will not solve the problems of the asked questions!

shadeyinka:

My dear Kobojunkie,
I do not think you are a JW, your answer will not solve the problems of the asked questions!

At least you have a reason to remember JWs again after a long break but don't worry we are friendly people, we are just a global family of peace loving worshipers having the same line of thought.
So whatever a JW tells you here in Nigeria if you travel to the ends of the earth it's the same response you'll get. The only thing that could happen is additional scriptural backup for whatever you get as answer to any question regarding the Bible.
As for what happened between you and i don't worry no JW will revisit that:

shadeyinka:

Here we have a discussion between a Christian and a Jehovah's witness detailing their faith and believe in the Gospel of Christ.
The first few pages of discussion was a cordial presentation between Maximus69 and of each others views and understanding of the scriptures without much rebuttals. We have concluded that now, hence the thread is open to anyone who wish to scrutinize what either of us have spoken with questions and objections.
It will be nice if scriptures are freely quoted where applicable.
Thanks

This was almost three years ago, so let's start afresh.
You are welcome once again!

MaxInDHouse:

Point of emphasis: "Memorial tomb"
It's only those in God's memory book that will come back to life not everyone.


The unrighteous that will be resurrected aren't those God destroyed Himself like Adam, Eve, Cain, Nimrod, Noah's contemporaries, Sodom and Gomorrah, Pharaoh and so on. All those ones are dead forever. But people who searched for God with all their hearts but couldn't find Him simply because God only dealt with the nation of Israel. Such individuals will be remembered for their good deeds but they remain unrighteous before God because they didn't know the righteousness of God!
So God will bring them back to life to be taught God's righteousness by Christians living on planet earth during Christ's 1,000 year's reign!



After their release from the grave, Christians on planet earth will start teaching them all the commandments of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Whoever yield will live up to the 1,000 years but some will not accept Christ's Counsels they will feel it's their former form of righteousness that will continue to keep them alive so after 100 years of their resurrection they will die again permanently! Isaiah 65:20


After the 1,000 years reign of Christ everyone would have become Perfect like Adam and Eve so nobody can say "it's Adam's sin that made me a sinner" because Jesus' blood and wise counsels would have washed away all our sinful nature. Then Satan will be released from the state of inactivity and he will go into action again to mislead people just as he did with the perfect man (Adam) God's word foretold that billions will fall for Satan's bait again.
That's when God will destroy Satan and all those who follow him forever! Revelations 20:7-10
May you have PEACE!

Thank you Mr Maximus for explaining these two verses.
Here is a summary from my understanding of your views,
1. Apart from the righteous ones who are in God's memory book, there are also unrighteous people who will also be in God's memory book.
2. The unrighteous ones in God's memory book are those who have done some good deeds but are not part of the nation of Israel.
3. God will bring back these unrighteous people back to life so that they can be taught God's righteousness by Christians living in the millenium.
4. Some of them will die prematurely within the millenium because they will not accept Christ's Counsels they will feel it's their former form of righteousness that will continue to keep them alive
5. Since satan will be released after the 1000 years, some of those "unrighteous people" who lived beyond the 1000 years will follow satan
6. God will then destroy these "unrighteous people" who lived beyond the 1000 years with satan


John 5:28-29 NWT
"28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice
29 and come out , those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "


On 1: How could they be unrighteous when your organisations says the name is based on faithful obedience to God
“The book of life,” also called “the scroll of life” or “book of remembrance,” contains the names of people in line to receive the gift of everlasting life. (Revelation 3:5; 20:12; Malachi 3:16) God determines those names based on a person’s faithful obedience to him.​—John 3:16; 1 John 5:3.
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/book-of-life/

On 2: If they are not part of the nation of Israel, does that include Muslims, Hindus, Catholics etc Are these people Servants of Jehovah?
God has kept each of his loyal servants in his memory, as if writing their names down in a book, since “the founding of the world” of mankind. (Revelation 17: The faithful man Abel was apparently the first one whose name was recorded in the book of life. (Hebrews 11:4) It is not just a cold list of names, though, for the book of life shows us that Jehovah is a loving God who “knows those who belong to him.”​—2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 4:8.

On 5: How come some of these unrighteous ones will survive after the millenium (they seem to be many who follow satan after his release)?

Furthermore, it seems your organisation believes that the condition for being in the memory book of God is righteousness and NOT unrighteousness.
18 As already intimated, God does not purpose to retain in his memory all who have died, without exception. As he purposely remembers some, he also can and does deliberately forget others. God’s own Word tells us how he determines the matter. “The memory of the righteous is blessed; but the name of the wicked shall rot. ”—Prov. 10:7, AS.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1954126

Finally,
John 5:28-29 NWT
"28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice
29 and come out , those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "

The meaning of VILE is TERRIBLE
Why will God keep those who do abominable things in his memory?

Thanks

MaxInDHouse:


At least you have a reason to remember JWs again after a long break but don't worry we are friendly people, we are just a global family of peace loving worshipers having the same line of thought.
So whatever a JW tells you here in Nigeria if you travel to the ends of the earth it's the same response you'll get. The only thing that could happen is additional scriptural backup for whatever you get as answer to any question regarding the Bible.
As for what happened between you and i don't worry no JW will revisit that:



This was almost three years ago, so let's start afresh.
You are welcome once again!

I told you I only want to know your views. Is Kobojunkie a JW?
Did he represent you by his response?

shadeyinka:


On 1: How could they be unrighteous when your organisations says the name is based on faithful obedience to God
“The book of life,” also called “the scroll of life” or “book of remembrance,” contains the names of people in line to receive the gift of everlasting life. (Revelation 3:5; 20:12; Malachi 3:16) God determines those names based on a person’s faithful obedience to him.​—John 3:16; 1 John 5:3. https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/book-of-life/

The book of life differs from the memorial tomb
No name can enter the book of life until after 1,000 years! God's memory book is about the humans who feared God but their fears is not in accordance with God's laws but at the hearing of the title "God" they tremble. God loves them but since their fears wasn't about His own righteousness He acknowledge them as worthy of a better chance to know His own righteousness. That's why their names are written in His memory book.

On 2: If they are not part of the nation of Israel, does that include Muslims, Hindus, Catholics etc Are these people Servants of Jehovah?
God has kept each of his loyal servants in his memory, as if writing their names down in a book, since “the founding of the world” of mankind. (Revelation 17: The faithful man Abel was apparently the first one whose name was recorded in the book of life. (Hebrews 11:4) It is not just a cold list of names, though, for the book of life shows us that Jehovah is a loving God who “knows those who belong to him.”​—2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 4:8.

They include all kinds of people from any religion who are doing everything their religion teaches to please God. Remember they're doing so with the intention of serving the true God. So God will acknowledge them since they don't have the opportunity of meeting the true Christians. Once they're able to meet true followers of Christ but deliberately turned down God's only means of redeeming them, then at death their names will be removed because that's exactly what they must accept before they can have everlasting life, at that time all their seeming righteousness becomes worthless!

On 5: How come some of these unrighteous ones will survive after the millenium (they seem to be many who follow satan after his release)?

This question is not clear please can you make it a bit simplar?

Furthermore, it seems your organisation believes that the condition for being in the memory book of God is righteousness and NOT unrighteousness.
18 As already intimated, God does not purpose to retain in his memory all who have died, without exception. As he purposely remembers some, he also can and does deliberately forget others. God’s own Word tells us how he determines the matter. “The memory of the righteous is blessed; but the name of the wicked shall rot. ”—Prov. 10:7, AS.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1954126

YES! They are righteous people in the sense that they did all what their false religious teachers asked them to do due to their fears for God {Matthew 23:2-5} so God view them as people who feared His name. But their righteousness is not according to His plan!

Finally,
John 5:28-29 NWT
"28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice
29 and come out , those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "

The meaning of VILE is TERRIBLE
Why will God keep those who do abominable things in his memory?
Thanks

The vile things here is not before they died but after 1,000 years of their resurrection and they went back to allow Satan trick them again into doing vile things!

shadeyinka:

I told you I only want to know your views. Is Kobojunkie a JW?
Did he represent you by his response?

Let's forget about him!

MaxInDHouse:


Let's forget about him!

Okay!

MaxInDHouse:

The book of life differs from the memorial tomb
No name can enter the book of life until after 1,000 years! God's memory book is about the humans who feared God but their fears is not in accordance with God's laws but at the hearing of the title "God" they tremble. God loves them but since their fears wasn't about His own righteousness He acknowledge them as worthy of a better chance to know His own righteousness. That's why their names are written in His memory book.

I am just getting to know that there is a difference between the book of life and God's memory book.

Revelation 13:8
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.


Exodus 32:32
But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written. ”

Please also note the tenses: "written before the foundation of the world" and "you have written"

MaxInDHouse:

They include all kinds of people from any religion who are doing everything their religion teaches to please God. Remember they're doing so with the intention of serving the true God. So God will acknowledge them since they don't have the opportunity of meeting the true Christians. Once they're able to meet true followers of Christ but deliberately turned down God's only means of redeeming them, then at death their names will be removed because that's exactly what they must accept before they can have everlasting life, at that time all their seeming righteousness becomes worthless!

Okay!

MaxInDHouse:

This question is not clear please can you make it a bit simplar?

I asked On 5: How come some of these unrighteous ones will survive after the millenium (they seem to be many who follow satan after his release)?
The reason is because you said:

MaxInDHouse:

After their release from the grave, Christians on planet earth will start teaching them all the commandments of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Whoever yield will live up to the 1,000 years but some will not accept Christ's Counsels they will feel it's their former form of righteousness that will continue to keep them alive so after 100 years of their resurrection they will die again permanently! Isaiah 65:20

My understanding from your posts
1. Some among unrighteous people who were resurrected will not live for more than 100 years because they didn't follow Christs teachings.
2. Whoever live beyond the 1000 years (the millenium) will continue to live forever after the 100 years
Rev 20:2, 7-10
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while.
7 When the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea. 9 They marched up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from heaven and consumed them. 10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

My understanding is that it seems a many/vast majority of these unrighteous people will gang up with satan AFTER the 1000 years have expired. So I asked:
On 5: How come some of these unrighteous ones will survive after the millenium (they seem to be many who follow satan after his release)?

MaxInDHouse:

YES! They are righteous people in the sense that they did all what their false religious teachers asked them to do due to their fears for God {Matthew 23:2-5} so God view them as people who feared His name. But their righteousness is not according to His plan!

The vile things here is not before they died but after 1,000 years of their resurrection and they went back to allow Satan trick them again into doing vile things!

Really!?
John 5:28-29 NWT
"28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice
29 and come out , those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "


Is not John 5:28-29 plainly speaking about the conditions for their resurrection from the dead?
1. Those who did good things to a resurrection of life
2. Those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment
What do you think?: as those who did good things will not die again to be resurrected.

Please also note the tenses: "did" and "practiced"

Thanks

shadeyinka:

Please also note the tenses: "written before the foundation of the world" and "you have written"

The writing of names "from the founding of the world" doesn't mean God literally chose those that will worship Him before they were born because that will make preaching and teaching meaningless.
It symbolizes the beginning of a system where rebellious humans will be permitted to live alongside obedient ones, while the obedient ones will get salvation as God's children {John 1:12} rebellious ones will be considered as Satan's Children {John 8:44} whereas Satan never created nor gave birth to a single soul. So the founding is at Genesis 3:15 when God declared that some will follow the woman (God's heavenly Organization of loyal creatures) and some will follow Satan!

On 5: How come some of these unrighteous ones will survive after the millenium (they seem to be many who follow satan after his release)?

They will survive because they became believers in the teachings of Christ as taught by the Christians on planet earth but just as Satan tried to mislead Jesus he will be released to try the same pranks on them. By that time each person will be standing on his/her own Jesus' blood would have completed it's cleansing so the evil anyone does henceforth will be counted as willful disobedience to God. So they have been cleansed but they allowed Satan to win them over again. That's why God's word said they're not yet alive not until the end of the thousand years reign of Christ {Revelations 20:4-6} only the BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS who have been taken to heaven will have their names written in the book of life first but other names will join after Satan is no more! Revelations 20:15

1. Those who did good things to a resurrection of life
2. Those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment
What do you think?: as those who did good things will not die again to be resurrected.
Please also note the tenses: "did" and "practiced" Thanks

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm Jesus is the one revealing what his father showed him to John the Apostle, and he wasn't telling him a story but what will happen during judgment day.
So the present and past tense connotes what those to be condemned would have done within the 1,000 years of their survival not what they did before their death because Jesus' blood brought them back to life therefore whatever they did before their death has been wiped off. Luke 23:43
You are welcome!

MaxInDHouse:

The writing of names "from the founding of the world" doesn't mean God literally chose those that will worship Him before they were born because that will make preaching and teaching meaningless.
It symbolizes the beginning of a system where rebellious humans will be permitted to live alongside obedient ones, while the obedient ones will get salvation as God's children {John 1:12} rebellious ones will be considered as Satan's Children {John 8:44} whereas Satan never created nor gave birth to a single soul. So the founding is at Genesis 3:15 when God declared that some will follow the woman (God's heavenly Organization of loyal creatures) and some will follow Satan!

My understanding is that God know the end from the beginning simply because of His Foreknowledge and not Predestination.
Isaiah 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'


Romans 8:29-30
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
It is what we do in the PRESENT that God sees from the eternal past. Obedience to God's words in the present thus make sense.

MaxInDHouse:

They will survive because they became believers in the teachings of Christ as taught by the Christians on planet earth but just as Satan tried to mislead Jesus he will be released to try the same pranks on them. By that time each person will be standing on his/her own Jesus' blood would have completed it's cleansing so the evil anyone does henceforth will be counted as willful disobedience to God. So they have been cleansed but they allowed Satan to win them over again. That's why God's word said they're not yet alive not until the end of the thousand years reign of Christ {Revelations 20:4-6} only the BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS who have been taken to heaven will have their names written in the book of life first but other names will join after Satan is no more! Revelations 20:15

Revelation 20:4-6
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Hmn!
The Rest of the dead actually were resurrected AFTER the 1000 years not BEFORE!
Interestingly, the bible calls it the FIRST resurection.

By your view in your quote above, it seems that a second death rather than resurrection occured to the ungodly ones. Is this a mistaken idea?

MaxInDHouse:

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm Jesus is the one revealing what his father showed him to John the Apostle, and he wasn't telling him a story but what will happen during judgment day.
So the present and past tense connotes what those to be condemned would have done within the 1,000 years of their survival not what they did before their death because Jesus' blood brought them back to life therefore whatever they did before their death has been wiped off. Luke 23:43
You are welcome!

Your explanation doesn't solve the problem.

1. Those who did good things to a resurrection of life
2. Those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment

Note:
Those who did good things to a resurrection of life

Don't you think there must be DEATH before resurrection for those who do good things (if indeed it was done during the 1000 year reign of Christ)?
Will the "true Christians" die again to experience resurrection?

If not, then the same thing is applicable to those who practiced vile things.

Good Morning

OP, Jehovah is the only One who can judge those outside his organization(1Corinthians 5:13) so while we don’t know all of the criterion used in judging who the unrighteous persons are, there are however a few things we can derive from the Scriptures to guide our reasoning. Note that there is a difference between the unrighteous and wicked.

All human beings from Adam til now were gifted with a conscience. An inner sense of right and wrong.

Those who used their conscience in the way it was given them (though it wasn’t trained by God’s standards) and didn’t come in contact with God’s people are excused by their conscience (Romans 2:15) are the unrighteous who will be resurrected alongside the righteous. Acts 24:15

Those who used their conscience the wrong way and even rendered it dead in the process by doing all sorts of abominable things that their conscience wouldn’t normally let them do are accused by their conscience (Romans 2:15) and are the wicked who will not be resurrected e.g. Adam, Eve, Cain, Nimrod etc. Proverbs 10:7b

As for John 5:29, it’s simply a time period during Judgment Day(which is during the millennium). Jesus was talking in retrospect i.e. describing the events from the beginning to the end in one sentence because that’s what Jehovah his Father is also known for. Isaiah 46:10
Those who resist Satan’s attacks at the end of the millennium will forever have their names imprinted in the book of life. Revelation 20:12
Those who choose to be misled by Satan into practicing vile things at the end of the millennium will be judged adversely. Revelation 20:15

shadeyinka:

My understanding is that God know the end from the beginning simply because of His Foreknowledge and not Predestination.
Isaiah 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'

Romans 8:29-30
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
It is what we do in the PRESENT that God sees from the eternal past. Obedience to God's words in the present thus make sense.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Hmn!
The Rest of the dead actually were resurrected AFTER the 1000 years not BEFORE!
Interestingly, the bible calls it the FIRST resurection.
By your view in your quote above, it seems that a second death rather than resurrection occured to the ungodly ones. Is this a mistaken idea?
Your explanation doesn't solve the problem.
Note:
Those who did good things to a resurrection of life
Don't you think there must be DEATH before resurrection for those who do good things (if indeed it was done during the 1000 year reign of Christ)?
Will the "true Christians" die again to experience resurrection?
If not, then the same thing is applicable to those who practiced vile things.
Good Morning

I want to believe you're truthful with the highlighted below!

shadeyinka:
I don't want to argue anything, I only want to understand your views
John 5:28-29 NWT
"28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice
29 and come out , those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "

The Questions:
1. ALL those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice!
To my understanding ALL means both the righteous and the unrighteous: Who are the ALL referred to here?
2. Those who hear His voice will come out!
To my understanding, coming out means RESURRECTION of both the good and the bad: Do Jehovah's witness believe in the resurrection of the unrighteous?
3. Those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "
To my understanding, there is judgement of the unrighteous AFTER this resurrection: Do Jehovah's witness believe in the judgement of the unrighteous? If you agree that there would be resurrection of the ungodly, how will Jehovah kill them again: will it be in the lake of fire?
Note:
Please, I'm not for any argument on this.
Thanks

You can see the post of another JW (DappaD) and i'll like you to fish out the contradictions in my resolve with his own.
If there is any then let's chat on that but if there is none then i think you now know HOW JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES INTERPRETS THE SCRIPTURE IN QUOTE.

Good morning!

@ Shadeyinka

There is something strange about religionsts claiming Christians that i'll like to call to your attention. Most religionsts want to be addressed as Christians but each have his own conception regarding what is written in the Bible.
For instance what do you think about the topic of this particular thread of yours?

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES: How Do WE Interpret This Scripture?
There are over 41,000 different religions all claiming Christians and due to contradicting teachings and conflicting doctrines each stands on it's own doctrine yet even within the same group (sect) members don't have the same line of thought regarding what they read in the Bible.
I believe that is what prompted the topic of your thread because you know that only JWs have the same teaching throughout the earth ringing in the mind of all members since they're commissioned to preach and TEACH what they knew. Others only go about with the "Heaven is real, Hell is real" hymn, every other thing goes anyhow each worshiper feel like Interpreting it.
So what do you think about that?

MaxInDHouse:


I want to believe you're truthful with the highlighted below!



You can see the post of another JW (DappaD) and i'll like you to fish out the contradictions in my resolve with his own.
If there is any then let's chat on that but if there is none then i think you now know HOW JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES INTERPRETS THE SCRIPTURE IN QUOTE.

Good morning!

If you checked carefully, you will note that nowhere did I assert my position.
I've only been asking you questions. It is unfortunate that your response sometimes bring up other questions.

The "worst" I did was to show you scriptures that seem to point you to checking up your position.

I haven't come to argue with you or your folks but if you think asking questions is argument, let's call it a day.

DappaD:
OP, Jehovah is the only One who can judge those outside his organization(1Corinthians 5:13) so while we don’t know all of the criterion used in judging who the unrighteous persons are, there are however a few things we can derive from the Scriptures to guide our reasoning. Note that there is a difference between the unrighteous and wicked.

All human beings from Adam til now were gifted with a conscience. An inner sense of right and wrong.

Those who used their conscience in the way it was given them (though it wasn’t trained by God’s standards) and didn’t come in contact with God’s people are excused by their conscience (Romans 2:15) are the unrighteous who will be resurrected alongside the righteous. Acts 24:15

Those who used their conscience the wrong way and even rendered it dead in the process by doing all sorts of abominable things that their conscience wouldn’t normally let them do are accused by their conscience (Romans 2:15) and are the wicked who will not be resurrected e.g. Adam, Eve, Cain, Nimrod etc. Proverbs 10:7b

As for John 5:29, it’s simply a time period during Judgment Day(which is during the millennium). Jesus was talking in retrospect i.e. describing the events from the beginning to the end in one sentence because that’s what Jehovah his Father is also known for. Isaiah 46:10
Those who resist Satan’s attacks at the end of the millennium will forever have their names imprinted in the book of life. Revelation 20:12
Those who choose to be misled by Satan into practicing vile things at the end of the millennium will be judged adversely. Revelation 20:15

Thank you for your input. The scripture is
John 5:28-29 NWT
"28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice
29 and come out , those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "

From what I understand you saying, those in the memorial tombs are both true Christians AND those who used their conscience to do good.

Is it possible to practice vile things with a good conscience?

Synonyms for vile things include: abominable things, morally despicable, abhorrent, foul, repulsive, disgusting....a vile person is worse than a bad person.

I am of the opinion that a person lead by his conscience (without Christ) would be morally upright. Example is the Centurion whose alms had gone up as a memorial to God..

What do you think?

shadeyinka:

If you checked carefully, you will note that nowhere did I assert my position.
I've only been asking you questions. It is unfortunate that your response sometimes bring up other questions.
The "worst" I did was to show you scriptures that seem to point you to checking up your position.
I haven't come to argue with you or your folks but if you think asking questions is argument, let's call it a day.

Well if truthfully you don't want to argue once you've gotten HOW JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES INTERPRET THE BIBLE VERSE there shouldn't be any further questions on the same scripture, it's either you take it or leave it.
You yourself once said "my church (ECWA) doctrines doesn't define me" whereas you know that JWs is direct opposite of such idea.
Globally JWs have the same mind on doctrines, once anyone decides to pitch his own tent he will be shown the exit door, let him go out there and gather people who will share his line of thought.
Jesus said people who are not on his side will never agree on doctrines {Luke 11:23} while Jesus' true followers will be unitedly joined together in the same line of thought! John 17:20-23 compare to 1Corinthians 1:10
Please take good care of yourself and have a nice day!

MaxInDHouse:
@ Shadeyinka

There is something strange about religionsts claiming Christians that i'll like to call to your attention. Most religionsts want to be addressed as Christians but each have his own conception regarding what is written in the Bible.
For instance what do you think about the topic of this particular thread of yours?

Religionists are everywhere including JW organisation.
JW organisation is one of the several hundred Christian denominations existing in the world. Other examples may include Brotherhood of the Cross and Star, Latter Day Saints, Celestial Church of Christ, Seventh Day Adventist Church, Baptist, ECWA etc

Their common denominator is that they ALL subscribe to the LORDSHIP of Christ at varying levels.

MaxInDHouse:

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES: How Do WE Interpret This Scripture?
There are over 41,000 different religions all claiming Christians and due to contradicting teachings and conflicting doctrines each stands on it's own doctrine yet even within the same group (sect) members don't have the same line of thought regarding what they read in the Bible.
I believe that is what prompted the topic of your thread because you know that only JWs have the same teaching throughout the earth ringing in the mind of all members since they're commissioned to preach and TEACH what they knew. Others only go about with the "Heaven is real, Hell is real" hymn, every other thing goes anyhow each worshiper feel like Interpreting it.
So what do you think about that?

You know only of the JW organisation
Do you know the Mormons?
Do you know the Brotherhood of the Cross and Star?
Do you know the Seventh Day Adventists?

Speak for yourself.

MaxInDHouse:


Well if truthfully you don't want to argue once you've gotten HOW JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES INTERPRET THE BIBLE VERSE there shouldn't be any further questions on the same scripture, it's either you take it or leave it.
You yourself once said "my church (ECWA) doctrines doesn't define me" whereas you know that JWs is direct opposite of such idea.
Globally JWs have the same mind on doctrines, once anyone decides to pitch his own tent he will be shown the exit door, let him go out there and gather people who will share his line of thought.
Jesus said people who are not on his side will never agree on doctrines {Luke 11:23} while Jesus' true followers will be unitedly joined together in the same line of thought! John 17:20-23 compare to 1Corinthians 1:10
Please take good care of yourself and have a nice day!

Then lets call it a day!
I am not interested in arguments

For courtesy purpose. I will respond to DappaD and we can close this thread

shadeyinka:

Thank you for your input. The scripture is
John 5:28-29 NWT
"28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice
29 and come out , those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "
From what I understand you saying, those in the memorial tombs are both true Christians AND those who used their conscience to do good.
Is it possible to practice vile things with a good conscience?
Synonyms for vile things include: abominable things, morally despicable, abhorrent, foul, repulsive, disgusting....a vile person is worse than a bad person.
I am of the opinion that a person lead by his conscience (without Christ) would be morally upright. Example is the Centurion whose alms had gone up as a memorial to God..
What do you think?

It's because you're not one of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES!

We have had lots and lots of experiences with people who used their God's given conscience well before Christianity was introduced to them but they find it hard to see reasons why they must continue living all their lives as Christians.
For instance do you remember the young Jewish ruler who came to Jesus?
Well he live all his life with clean conscience until he got to know that it's not only about having clean conscience but more is required! Luke 18:18-23
Another example are people who started following Jesus as disciples but later turned their backs on him. John 6:63-66

What we know for sure is that no matter how difficult it is JEHOVAH will always make a way for His obedient worshipers {Isaiah 30:21} so that humble and obedient ones only need to IDENTIFY that source and stick to it.
That's why Peter told Jesus:
Then Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life" John 6:68
There are millions out there who believes God must have one group teaching His people {Matthew 24:45} and they're always yearning to be part of such group. Of course they're JWs even if we've not found them.
And there are billions out there who have clean conscience but aren't ready to SUBJECT themselves to the same line of thought with anyone, even if they somehow come into our midst either through friendship or birth they will later take the exit door!
The same is what will happen to those who will be resurrected after Armageddon but failed to continue with God's people as one family!

So do you have a thread on doctrine that you purposely addressed to any of the mentioned?
I guess never!
Well it's because JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES Organization is the group Jesus referred to in the Bible book of Matthew 5:13-16 so you can't see any other mountain apart from the spiritually tallest of them all whose teachings reaches the most distant part of the earth! Micah 4:1

shadeyinka:

Religionists are everywhere including JW organisation.
JW organisation is one of the several hundred Christian denominations existing in the world. Other examples may include Brotherhood of the Cross and Star, Latter Day Saints, Celestial Church of Christ, Seventh Day Adventist Church, Baptist, ECWA etc
Their common denominator is that they ALL subscribe to the LORDSHIP of Christ at varying levels.
You know only of the JW organisation
Do you know the Mormons?
Do you know the Brotherhood of the Cross and Star?
Do you know the Seventh Day Adventists?
Speak for yourself.

OK i'll allow you speak any other JW while i keep off.
But before i leave let me tell you what you will encounter, no JW will change whatever the BODY OF CHRIST (organization) teaches so even if such ones finds out that you brings a teaching of the organization he/she hasn't gotten cleared, he/she will only go to other JWs to explain better for him/her to know it.
NO JW WILL DEBUNK WHATEVER THE ORGANIZATION AGREED UPON! Matthew 16:19
May you have PEACE!

shadeyinka:

Then lets call it a day!
I am not interested in arguments
For courtesy purpose. I will respond to DappaD and we can close this thread

I already mentioned to you earlier that there’s a difference between the unrighteous person and a wicked person from God’s standpoint.

The wicked person engaged in all sorts which you mentioned:

shadeyinka:
Synonyms for vile things include: abominable things, morally despicable, abhorrent, foul, repulsive, disgusting....a vile person is worse than a bad person.

Therefore, the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ would not be applied in their case for them to be resurrected in the first place. Numbers 35:31

Meanwhile, the unrighteous person did not come in contact with Jehovah’s people while on earth but he allowed his conscience to guide him as it fit him(Romans 2:14-15) even though he may have committed minor sins and offenses, once he has died, he would be acquitted from his sin and it wouldn’t be held against him(Romans 6:7) since it is not the kind that incurs death, unlike the wicked person. 1John 5:16-17
That’s why the narrative you’re trying to paint doesn’t sound palatable if you think about it.

This is the point MaxInDHouse was trying to pass across which you missed:

MaxInDHouse:

The vile things here is not before they died but after 1,000 years of their resurrection and they went back to allow Satan trick them again into doing vile things!

So those who are the unrighteous are not judged based on their past deeds, since they have already paid off their sins with death. Romans 6:23
Those who are judged as practicing vile things did so after the millennial rule of Jesus. Revelation 20:7-9
That’s the point that I’ve been trying to pass. Period.

DappaD:
I already mentioned to you earlier that there’s a difference between the unrighteous person and a wicked person from God’s standpoint.

The wicked person engaged in all sorts which you mentioned:

Therefore, the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ would not be applied in their case for them to be resurrected in the first place. Numbers 35:31

Meanwhile, the unrighteous person did not come in contact with Jehovah’s people while on earth but he allowed his conscience to guide him as it fit him(Romans 2:14-15) even though he may have committed minor sins and offenses, once he has died, he would be acquitted from his sin and it wouldn’t be held against him(Romans 6:7) since it is not the kind that incurs death, unlike the wicked person. 1John 5:16-17
That’s why the narrative you’re trying to paint doesn’t sound palatable if you think about it.

This is the point MaxInDHouse was trying to pass across which you missed:

So those who are the unrighteous are not judged based on their past deeds, since they have already paid off their sins with death. Romans 6:23
Those who are judged as practicing vile things did so after the millennial rule of Jesus. Revelation 20:7-9
That’s the point that I’ve been trying to pass. Period.

Okay I hear and understand you.
A person can be of a vile personality and still be in God's memorial tomb.

John 5:28-29 NWT
"28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice
29 and come out , those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "

Forgive me for interpreting the scripture according to the plain language and text.

shadeyinka:

Okay I hear and understand you.
A person can be of a vile personality and still be in God's memorial tomb.

John 5:28-29 NWT
"28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice
29 and come out , those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. "

Forgive me for interpreting the scripture according to the plain language and text.

You're still missing the point!

and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life (as for those who accepted Jesus' teachings and act accordingly despite Satan's temptation, their resurrection will turn out to be FOR LIFE), and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment (as for those who accepted Christ's counsel but later turn away to doing vile things after Satan's temptation, their resurrection will turn out to be FOR CONDEMNATION) John 5:29

Try to assimilate the bolded, that's the same INTERPRETATION you will get from all JWs globally!

MaxInDHouse:


You're still missing the point!

and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life (as for those who accepted Jesus' teachings and act accordingly despite Satan's temptation, their resurrection will turn out to be FOR LIFE), and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment (as for those who accepted Christ's counsel but later turn away to doing vile things after Satan's temptation, their resurrection will turn out to be FOR CONDEMNATION) John 5:29

Try to assimilate the bolded, that's the same INTERPRETATION you will get from all JWs globally!

I understand you well.
Your interpretations are in harmony with your organisations position.

It doesn't mean that it makes sense to me with respect to the scripture in question.

It is possible for a class to chorus an answer different from what the text really says.
Thanks so much for obliging me your answers. I fully understand your interpretation of the text (it may be different from mine: but that's not the point)

Thank you

You and i already know that there are hundreds of thousands of INTERPRETATIONS from different religious groups (sects) so JWs are people who carefully ascertain the Interpretation that's yielding positive results {Matthew 7:16-18} so even when it sounds unpalatable to physical men {John 6:66} we know the spiritual men have a reason for sticking to it {John 6:68} and our LOVE for God will help us to believe, endure and hope to understand it better! 1Corinthians 13:7
So instead of pitching our tents with just any group we hold unto the skirt of the spiritual men {Zechariah 8:23} because if God is not with them nobody will see their doctrines as the highest of all doctrines just as you're seeing it now! Matthew 5:14

May you have PEACE!

shadeyinka:

I understand you well.
Your interpretations are in harmony with your organisations position.
It doesn't mean that it makes sense to me with respect to the scripture in question.
It is possible for a class to chorus an answer different from what the text really says.
Thanks so much for obliging me your answers. I fully understand your interpretation of the text (it may be different from mine: but that's not the point)

Thank you

MaxInDHouse:
You and i already know that there are hundreds of thousands of INTERPRETATIONS from different religious groups (sects) so JWs are people who carefully ascertain the Interpretation that's yielding positive results {Matthew 7:16-18} so even when it sounds unpalatable to physical men {John 6:66} we know the spiritual men have a reason for sticking to it {John 6:68} and our LOVE for God will help us to believe, endure and hope to understand it better! 1Corinthians 13:7
So instead of pitching our tents with just any group we hold unto the skirt of the spiritual men {Zechariah 8:23} because if God is not with them nobody will see their doctrines as the highest of all doctrines just as you're seeing it now! Matthew 5:14

May you have PEACE!

I understand you well.
Your interpretations are in harmony with your organisations position.
It doesn't mean that it makes sense to me with respect to the scripture in question.
It is possible for a class to chorus an answer different from what the text really says.
Thanks so much for obliging me your answers. I fully understand your interpretation of the text (it may be different from mine: but that's not the point)

Thank you

shadeyinka:

I understand you well.
Your interpretations are in harmony with your organisations position.
It doesn't mean that it makes sense to me with respect to the scripture in question.
It is possible for a class to chorus an answer different from what the text really says.
Thanks so much for obliging me your answers. I fully understand your interpretation of the text (it may be different from mine: but that's not the point)
Thank you

Just negodu this man. You opened this thread to ask how JWs would interprete the Scripture in question. It was thoroughly deliberated on. Then you came forward with the highlighted as what—subtle sarcasm? See, John 5:29 is a just a derivation of Daniel 12:2 which can be interpreted in several ways too. We do not just come to abrupt conclusions before making Scriptural findings so if you choose to focus only on John 5:29 without considering other Scriptures that can explain it, then fine the choice is up to you.

The only thing here is, if everybody adopted the same view as you do i.e. literally interpreting the text as it is(as fundamentalists do) then I assure you that many people would find the Bible to be contradictory. That’s the reason why Scripture has to interpret Scripture for it to make sense—for the dots to be connected. But like I said, the choice is up to you to decide what you want for yourself as no one will coerce you into believing what you do not want to. Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves also have a choice to convince themselves that their interpretation is truth. Romans 12:2, 1Thessalonians 5:21

What Does the Bible Really Teach?

Judgment Day​—What Is It?

HOW do you picture Judgment Day? Many think that one by one, billions of souls will be brought before the throne of God. There, judgment will be passed on each individual. Some will be rewarded with heavenly bliss, and others will be condemned to eternal torment. However, the Bible paints quite a different picture of this period of time. God’s Word portrays it, not as a terrifying time, but as a time of hope and restoration.

At Revelation 20:11, 12, we read the apostle John’s description of Judgment Day: “I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.” Who is the Judge described here?

Jehovah God is the ultimate Judge of mankind. However, he delegates the actual work of judging. According to Acts 17:31, the apostle Paul said that God “has set a day on which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed.” This appointed Judge is the resurrected Jesus Christ. (John 5:22) When, though, does Judgment Day begin? How long does it last?


The book of Revelation shows that Judgment Day begins after the war of Armageddon, when Satan’s system on earth will be destroyed. * (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:19–20:3) After Armageddon, Satan and his demons will be imprisoned in an abyss for a thousand years. During that time, the 144,000 heavenly joint heirs will be judges and will rule “as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.” (Revelation 14:1-3; 20:1-4; Romans 8:17) Judgment Day is not some hurried event lasting a mere 24 hours. It lasts a thousand years.

During that thousand-year period, Jesus Christ will “judge the living and the dead.” (2 Timothy 4:1) “The living” will be the “great crowd” that survives Armageddon. (Revelation 7:9-17) The apostle John also saw “the dead . . . standing before the throne” of judgment. As Jesus promised, “those in the memorial tombs will hear [Christ’s] voice and come out” by means of a resurrection. (John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15) But on what basis will all be judged?


According to the apostle John’s vision, “scrolls were opened,” and “the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.” (Revelation 20:12) Are these scrolls the record of people’s past deeds? No, the judgment will not focus on what people did before they died. How do we know that? The Bible says: “The one who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” (Romans 6:7) Those resurrected thus come to life with a clean slate, so to speak. The scrolls must therefore represent God’s further requirements. To live forever, both Armageddon survivors and resurrected ones will have to obey God’s commandments, including whatever new requirements Jehovah might reveal during the thousand years. Thus, individuals will be judged on the basis of what they do during Judgment Day.

Judgment Day will give billions of people their first opportunity to learn about God’s will and to conform to it. This means that a large-scale educational work will take place. Indeed, ‘the inhabitants of the land will learn about righteousness.’ (Isaiah 26:9) However, not all will be willing to conform to God’s will. Isaiah 26:10 says: “Even if the wicked is shown favor, he will not learn righteousness. Even in the land of uprightness he will act wickedly, and he will not see the majesty of Jehovah.” These wicked ones will be put to death permanently during Judgment Day.​—Isaiah 65:20.

By the end of Judgment Day, surviving humans will have “come to life” fully as perfect humans. (Revelation 20:5) Judgment Day will thus see the restoration of mankind to its original perfect state. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28) Then a final test will take place. Satan will be released from his imprisonment and allowed to try to mislead mankind one last time. (Revelation 20:3, 7-10) Those who resist him will enjoy the complete fulfillment of the Bible’s promise: “The righteous will possess the earth, and they will live forever on it.” (Psalm 37:29) Yes, Judgment Day will be a blessing to all faithful mankind!


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“The End”​—What Does it Mean?
Did you know that what the Bible says about “the end” is actually good news?

Source:jw.org