AjanleKoko:

ritchboy abi kilonje,
Cesc doesn't play for ya club anymore. Leave matter for the Mathiases

he loves cesc and rightly so, cesc is a fantastic player in his own right but andreas iniesta? is there another player?
people waiting for iniesta to be topping the assist charts or goal charts would wait till the 2nd coming of christ. . . . .he is a killer passer.

[flash=425,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAU5iD9g8Xo&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3"[/flash]

this clip says it all.
look at iniesta's contribution to the goal assists and the goals scored.
he made the tasks so easy - statistics would only remember assists and goal scorers but the engineer here is iniesta!

i doubt he has ever made a wrong pass in his entire career. he does magical things that make football more than worth watching, there are very few players around like that. to have the ability and composure to perform these close control skills in high pressure situations is incredible.

there was one turn where he was being pressed by two players on the edge of his own box and he just did a turn to completely take out both of them and make them look silly. his close control in tight corners is even better than that of ronaldo or messi.

coogar:

ritchboy, stop blaspheming. . . . .iniesta is a better player than fabregas in every department of the round leather game.

iniesta is the better dribbler and his high reluctance to give the ball away is miles better than cesc fabregas who often loses possession under pressure.
he's so dead on the ball, runs on his forefeet and his balance is as supreme as messi's - light of touch!
without his last minute goal against chelsea in 2009, i wonder what barca would have been under guardiola - they have not looked back since that night.

FAFAFA, FAWOULLL! On the contrary, Cesc murks Iniesta in almost every department of the round leather game; Whether it's passing, crossing, dead-balls, off-the-ball running, finishing, goal-scoring, goal-making, even heading, name it!

The only conspicuous skill Iniesta has over Cesc is dribbling(one of the less relevant attributes of central-midfielders), and it's not like Cesc can't beat his marker. We call midfielders who dribble too much without end product "Youtube players", and since you've predictably resorted to posting Youtube videos:

[flash=640,390]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afW7520EXgA[/flash]

Luka Modric and Abou Diaby woulda been the next best CMs in the world if dribbling was a requisite of being a top CM!

ritchboy:

FAFAFA, FAWOULLL! On the contrary, Cesc murks Iniesta in almost every department of the round leather game; Whether it's passing, crossing, dead-balls, off-the-ball running, finishing, goal-scoring, goal-making, even heading, name it!

The only conspicuous skill Iniesta has over Cesc is dribbling(one of the less relevant attributes of central-midfielders), and it's not like Cesc can't beat his marker. We call midfielders who dribble too much without end product "Youtube players", and since you've predictably resorted to posting Youtube videos:

Luka Modric and Abou Diaby woulda been the next best CMs in the world if dribbling was a requisite of being a top CM!

iniesta is a better passer of the ball. . . iniesta's the better dribbler. . . . iniesta has got the better vision and he's thrice the player fabregas is.
it was andreas iniesta guardiola was referring to @ la masia when he remarked "this kid would retire us all".
iniesta's close control is top drawer. . . .can fabregas hold possession under pressure? what about one-touch passing?

abeg, i don't know any midfielder in barca cesc can hold any candle to.
not thiago, not xavi, not iniesta and not sergio busquets. . . . .of course, cesc's better than keita.
but the spaniards are heads and shoulders better than cesc technically. . . . .goal scoring, goal making, etc are irrelevant - iniesta is not governed by those.
his style is not direct. . . . . . .until it's absolutely necessary for him to shoot at goal.

you make me laugh with your remark that iniesta has no end product!!!
if he doesn't have an end product to his game, who does?
the number of killer passes he's supplied in his life-time is the reason cesc cannot get into the team: spain/barcelona.

coogar:

iniesta is a better passer of the ball. . . iniesta's the better dribbler. . . . iniesta has got the better vision and he's thrice the player fabregas is.
it was andreas iniesta guardiola was referring to @ la masia when he remarked "this kid would retire us all".
iniesta's close control is top drawer. . . .can fabregas hold possession under pressure? what about one-touch passing?

abeg, i don't know any midfielder in barca cesc can hold any candle to.
not thiago, not xavi, not iniesta and not sergio busquets. . . . .of course, cesc's better than keita.
but the spaniards are heads and shoulders better than cesc technically. . . . .goal scoring, goal making, etc are irrelevant - iniesta is not governed by those.
his style is not direct. . . . . . .until it's absolutely necessary for him to shoot at goal.

you make me laugh with your remark that iniesta has no end product!!!
if he doesn't have an end product to his game, who does?
the number of killer passes he's supplied in his life-time is the reason cesc cannot get into the team: spain/barcelona.

PEPEPE, PENAREETEE!!! I'm sure In Coogar Town, dribbling past 3 players in your own half is more important than scoring and creating goals, but not in the real world son! While cats like Iniesta and Modric will try to beat oncoming markers with some flamboyant, easy-on-the-eye, youtube.com skill, more intelligent midfielders like Cesc and Xavi would pick out an equally effective but simple pass to a teammate or use a pirouette {(c) La Masia} to create the angle for the pass if necessary.

Cesc movement off the ball alone is stuff of legend. This is why you see him in more one on one situations than most strikers.

Of course Iniesta (compared to Cesc) has no end product. If i bring out their stats over the last 5-7 years, you'll weep for the pale midget!

Personally,i have always felt Cesc is "inimical" to the flow of this Barca team.But then,it is cos i am used to seeing a Cesc who dictates rather than being one of the many good players.

Anyone saw the picture of Mou waiting by the ref's car to dish out insult?Mou's a wimp.

ritchboy:

PEPEPE, PENAREETEE!!! I'm sure In Coogar Town, dribbling past 3 players in your own half is more important than scoring and creating goals, but not in the real world son! While cats like Iniesta and Modric will try to beat oncoming markers with some flamboyant, easy-on-the-eye, youtube.com skill, more intelligent midfielders like Cesc and Xavi would pick out an equally effective but simple pass to a teammate or use a pirouette {(c) La Masia} to create the angle for the pass if necessary.

Cesc movement off the ball alone is stuff of legend. This is why you see him in more one on one situations than most strikers.

Of course Iniesta (compared to Cesc) has no end product. If i bring out their stats over the last 5-7 years, you'll weep for the pale midget!

the only question you then need to ask yourself is how does xavi gets that amount of space to create goals if the job hasn't been made easier by iniesta.
this is like comparing alexander hleb to ashley young or tony valencia. the latter is a more technical player. . . the latter are direct players. they pass, they cross to the goal scorer. . . .they just hoof a cross and hope to the heavens someone gets to the end of the cross. . .and the assist belongs to them.

iniesta on the other hand is not hoofing and hoping. he's worked out the angle of the pass, the weight of the ball.
precision and accuracy of the triangles and unless the recipient of his pass is a one-legged man, the task of scoring or making an assist to the scorer has been made very easy.

look at xavi's assists, there's no ingenuity about most of them. . . .the complex task has been completed by iniesta before feeding xavi - take a look at the david silva goal in the youtube clip i posted. . . . . .my grandmother would have completed xavi's contribution and my dog would have scored the goal.

if there's a stat for assist of the assist or if there's a stat for the killer pass. . . .then you would appreciate what iniesta does.
on the argument you are making. . . . .charlie adam/leighton baines/david silva are better than iniesta!

I like Iniesta a lot and his contributions to barca's style of play. But i do not know why a clué will downplay the contributions of Cesc on the alter of not holding ball under pressure, misplacing passes etc ignoring that this same Cesc has racked up 14 goals and 12 assists including important goals compared to Iniesta's 4 goals and 5 assists. This is what wins u matches not only short passes. Iniesta's injury this season have exercabated also. If not for Cesc helping Messi in scoring, i wonder what would have become of us this season.

coogar:
this is like comparing alexander hleb to ashley young or tony valencia. the latter is a more technical player. . . the latter are direct players. they pass, they cross to the goal scorer. . . .they just hoof a cross and hope to the heavens someone gets to the end of the cross. . .and the assist belongs to them.

iniesta on the other hand is not hoofing and hoping. he's worked out the angle of the pass, the weight of the ball.
precision and accuracy of the triangles and unless the recipient of his pass is a one-legged man, the task of scoring or making an assist to the scorer has been made very easy.

This is a terrible analogy because (A) Cesc is nowhere near as direct as the likes of Valencia. (B) Cesc's passing isn't just more precise than Iniesta's, it's more precise than just about every other player in the world. Off the top of my head, only Xabi Alonso and Xavi Hernandez can lay claim to being more precise passers than Cesc in world football, anyone else is on par at best. If Iniesta and Cesc were to play the "hit the tree" game(Scholes), there's on one possible winner.

You talk about Iniesta's indirectness like it's a good thing, it isn't. Cesc's decision making in the final third is unrivaled, Iniesta obviously needs to improve his cos it's criminal for a Barcelona forward/AM to be averaging 5 goals and 5 assists per season when he clearly has the ability to do much better.

look at xavi's assists, there's no ingenuity about most of them. . . .the complex task has been completed by iniesta before feeding xavi - take a look at the david silva goal in the youtube clip i posted. . . . . .my grandmother would have completed xavi's contribution and my dog would have scored the goal.

Hehehe, so now you've resorted to playing down Xavi's contribution just to talk up Iniesta? OK!!!

if there's a stat for assist of the assist or if there's a stat for the killer pass. . . .then you would appreciate what iniesta does.

I'm sure Cesc also assists uncountable assists and drops a billion killer passes, if there was a stat for that he'll still be comfortably ahead of Iniesta. Except he doesn't use it as an excuse for lacking a final ball.

on the argument you are making. . . . .charlie adam/leighton baines/david silva are better than iniesta!

Leighton Baines(for obvious reasons) and Charlie Adam(what are his numbers in the last 3-5 years?) are severely lacking in other areas of the game(where Cesc comfortably matches/betters Iniesta), meaning even if they out-assist him, he's still way ahead of them based on other areas of the game.

David Silva has played better than Iniesta this season and will be considered a better player if he can maintain his current level for a longer period of time.

ritchboy:

This is a terrible analogy because (A) Cesc is nowhere near as direct as the likes of Valencia. (B) Cesc's passing isn't just more precise than Iniesta's, it's more precise than just about every other player in the world. Off the top of my head, only Xabi Alonso and Xavi Hernandez can lay claim to being more precise passers than Cesc in world football, anyone else is on par at best. If Iniesta and Cesc were to play the "hit the tree" game(Scholes), there's on one possible winner.

cesc is more direct. . . . . .
sometimes he hoofs it from his own half of the pitch to a striker through on goal. . . .
iniesta's game is not like that. . . . .barca's play does not work like that.

You talk about Iniesta's indirectness like it's a good thing, it isn't. Cesc's decision making in the final third is unrivaled, Iniesta obviously needs to improve his cos it's criminal for a Barcelona forward/AM to be averaging 5 goals and 5 assists per season when he clearly has the ability to do much better.

it's the barcelona dna. . . . .that's the way they should play.
you are taking this as if when iniesta is in front of goal, he misses quite a lot of chances - hell no! he does not.
he is not even interested getting into those scoring positions. . . . .he's the orchestrator, the string puller - he's got the ability to dictate the tempo and barcelona were very fine before cesc's arrival. fabregas has added nothing to barcelona. . . .has he?

Hehehe, so now you've resorted to playing down Xavi's contribution just to talk up Iniesta? OK!!!

xavi is really good but last season, he had just 10 assists in all competitions to iniesta's 9.
dani alves on the other hand had 18 assists, messi had 21. by your own logic, dani alves is a better player than the midfield maestros or dani alves is more direct than them?

answers on a postcard, please!

I'm sure Cesc also assists uncountable assists and drops a billion killer passes, if there was a stat for that he'll still be comfortably ahead of Iniesta. Except he doesn't use it as an excuse for lacking a final ball.

this season, messi's got 13 assists, alves has got 10 assists, xavi(7), cesc(5), iniesta(4)
so how's cesc fabregas better? in barcelona, these statistics mean shyte. . . . .the way the team is set up is so complex raw statistics would not give you the true picture of what is happening on the pitch.

Leighton Baines(for obvious reasons) and Charlie Adam(what are his numbers in the last 3-5 years?) are severely lacking in other areas of the game(where Cesc comfortably matches/betters Iniesta), meaning even if they out-assist him, he's still way ahead of them based on other areas of the game.

David Silva has played better than Iniesta this season and will be considered a better player if he can maintain his current level for a longer period of time.

david silva has played better than iniesta this season? because of the gra-gra way city plays?
i am sure silva himself would have you slapped for saying that.
we can also conclude nani played better than xavi last season cos nani copped 20 assists, isn't it?

iniesta vs fabregas

Assists La Liga UCL CDR USC SSC CWC Total
Messi 8 3 2 1 2 1 17
Xavi 7 1 4 0 0 1 13
Fabregas 6 0 5 0 0 0 11
Dani Alves 7 1 0 0 0 2 10
Thiago 2 1 1 0 0 2 6
Cuenca 0 4 2 0 0 0 6
Adriano 3 1 1 0 1 0 6
Iniesta 5 0 0 0 0 0 5

this stat is obtained from totalbarca.com and is correct as of 20th of jan.

@coogar, get ur facts right before u post them here. Posting wrong stats just to prove a fact, shows desperation.

coogar:

cesc is more direct. . . . . .
sometimes he hoofs it from his own half of the pitch to a striker through on goal. . . .
iniesta's game is not like that. . . . .barca's play does not work like that.

"Hoof" suggests a hopeful ball aimed at a target man, Cesc doesn't do that, stop lying. A precise 60 yard pass cannot be called "hoofing" based on distance alone. Iniesta doesn't do it as well or as often as Cesc because he simply doesn't have the ability.

he is not even interested getting into those scoring positions. . . . .he's the orchestrator, the string puller

Again, he is "not interested" in getting into those positions because he doesn't have the ability to do so. Cesc also acts as an orchestrator/string-puller(blimey, the whole attacking 5/6 at Barca chip in), it doesn't stop him from getting into the box and scoring goals.

barcelona were very fine before cesc's arrival. fabregas has added nothing to barcelona. . . .has he?

Barcelona were also fine before Villa/Sanchez/Pedro etc arrived, how does it affect the price of alomo? Cesc is Barca's most productive player after Messi with 14 goals and 12 assists from just 20 starts:

Johnpaul88:

I like Iniesta a lot and his contributions to barca's style of play. But i do not know why a clué will downplay the contributions of Cesc on the alter of not holding ball under pressure, misplacing passes etc ignoring that this same Cesc has racked up 14 goals and 12 assists including important goals compared to Iniesta's 4 goals and 5 assists. This is what wins u matches not only short passes. Iniesta's injury this season have exercabated also. If not for Cesc helping Messi in scoring, i wonder what would have become of us this season.  

What has Iniesta added this season?

xavi is really good but last season, he had just 10 assists in all competitions to iniesta's 9.
dani alves on the other hand had 18 assists, messi had 21. by your own logic, dani alves is a better player than the midfield maestros or dani alves is more direct than them?

answers on a postcard, please!

we can also conclude nani played better than xavi last season cos nani copped 20 assists, isn't it?

I have already told you why this train of though should be derailed:

Leighton Baines(for obvious reasons) and Charlie Adam(what are his numbers in the last 3-5 years?) are severely lacking in other areas of the game(where Cesc comfortably matches/betters Iniesta), meaning even if they out-assist him, he's still way ahead of them based on other areas of the game.

this season, messi's got 13 assists, alves has got 10 assists, xavi(7), cesc(5), iniesta(4)
so how's cesc fabregas better?

Since you've conveniently limited your stats to league games, Cesc has 9 goals and 5 assists in La Liga, Iniesta has 4 assists and NOT A SINGLE GOAL by February!!! LOLOL

david silva has played better than iniesta this season? because of the gra-gra way city plays?

Of course Silva has been better than Iniesta this season, no question!

iniesta vs fabregas

These figures were collected over a short period of time and are limited to league games. In any case the first two thirds are negligible. In the final third, Cesc attempts more final-balls(which are like 3 or 4 times more liable to interception/misplacement) than Iniesta, try again.

Johnpaul88:

Assists La Liga UCL CDR USC SSC CWC Total
Messi 8 3 2 1 2 1 17
Xavi 7 1 4 0 0 1 13
Fabregas 6 0 5 0 0 0 11
Dani Alves 7 1 0 0 0 2 10
Thiago 2 1 1 0 0 2 6
Cuenca 0 4 2 0 0 0 6
Adriano 3 1 1 0 1 0 6
Iniesta 5 0 0 0 0 0 5

this stat is obtained from totalbarca.com and is correct as of 20th of jan.

@coogar, get ur facts right before u post them here. Posting wrong stats just to prove a fact, shows desperation.

you're a tool if you think i am posting wrong stats and desperate.
why not check soccernet for the stats posted instead of posting a table that is unreadable.

ritchboy:

"Hoof" suggests a hopeful ball aimed at a target man, Cesc doesn't do that, stop lying. A precise 60 yard pass cannot be called "hoofing" based on distance alone. Iniesta doesn't do it as well or as often as Cesc because he simply doesn't have the ability.

if you think iniesta does not have the ability to ping 60 yard pass, then you are on your own.
that fabregas was doing it in england is because of the way english teams play. have you seen fabregas pinging the same long balls in barcelona?
you wouldn't see it in years to come. they don't play that way. guardiola doesn't encourage it. they must pass at short distances so that if they lose it, they can easily press and get it back. that is the guardiola way.

Again, he is "not interested" in getting into those positions because he doesn't have the ability to do so. Cesc also acts as an orchestrator/string-puller(blimey, the whole attacking 5/6 at Barca chip in), it doesn't stop him from getting into the box and scoring goals.

yet, it was iniesta that scored in the final of the world cup. what about that goal suggests he cannot get into dangerous positions and finish exquisitely.
see how he aimed the shot across the goal unlike most strikers who would have gone near post. when iniesta gets into those positions where he's ahead of others, he scores.

Barcelona were also fine before Villa/Sanchez/Pedro etc arrived, how does it affect the price of alomo? Cesc is Barca's most productive player after Messi with 14 goals and 12 assists from just 20 starts:

they don't need his productivity.
the magnificent seven in barcelona are: puyol, pique, xavi, iniesta, messi, busquets and pedro
barcelona have not lost a game in which those seven players started. fabregas, sanchez, alves, etc are surplus to requirements.

it's barcelona carrying fabregas along, not the other way round. they were doing extremely well before his arrival.
like i have said, they don't need his productivity.

What has Iniesta added this season?

intangibles!
actions not recorded by statistics. watch his game play and see what he does.

I have already told you why this train of though should be derailed:

why should it be derailed.
because of assists and goals. . . . .you are saying cesc is better than iniesta.
because of assists and goals. . . . .why isn't nani better than xavi. why isn't david silva better than xavi.

abeg, it's a new year - i shall not tolerate any attempt to distort the facts.

Since you've conveniently limited your stats to league games, Cesc has 9 goals and 5 assists in La Liga, Iniesta has 4 assists and NOT A SINGLE GOAL by February!!! LOLOL
Of course Silva has been better than Iniesta this season, no question!

on what basis has silva been better than iniesta?
the way different teams play is the pointer. it depends on who the manager has chosen to be the outlet to produce goals, assists and etc.

silva is the most creative player in man city. it makes sense that he's racked that many assists.
if he joins barca, he would be vastly insignificant with xavi, messi, etc eating the lion share of his statistics.
to open your mouth on a public forum and say silva is better than iniesta based on the leadership roles in their respective teams is a tad disgraceful.

These figures were collected over a short period of time and are limited to league games. In any case the first two thirds are negligible. In the final third, Cesc attempts more final-balls(which are like 3 or 4 times more liable to interception/misplacement) than Iniesta, try again.

if they are more liable to interception/misplacement, how then is fabregas the better passer of the ball than iniesta?
ritchboy has shot himself in the foot. the only reason cesc's passing in the final third is lacking is because he hoofs it and hopes.
iniesta times his passes and if there's any single doubt his passes would be intercepted, he then tries an alternative route.

it's called football intelligence!

@Coogar, u sure are very ready! Ride on!

Johnpaul88:

@Coogar, u sure are very ready! Ride on!

ready for what? try and make yourself clear so one can give you the required response.

i would not bring out wrong stats to justify any opinion.
there are some very few players in europe you cannot use statistics to define cos what they bring to the team is too complex for statistics to define.
a very fine example is iniesta and xavi. they are easily the most gifted midfielders in the planet and yet they record midfield statistics lower than nani, malouda, david silva, van der vaart, ozil, etc. . .

should it then mean that xavi and iniesta are not productive? of course not.
barcelona take low risks with the way they operate - this is why they are the most successful team around.
if they think the chance of them losing the ball is higher than them scoring, they would retreat and build another attack from scratch. the long boring short passes is their way of staying patient and looking for opening. . .

[flash=425,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5QbQYJnRYA&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3"[/flash]

statistics recorded nothing for iniesta with this goal but to me, he scored the goal.
xavi's assist and david silva's goal are insignificant.
iniesta murdered the defence with his killer pass. . . . . .that is the intangibles iniesta brings to the table.

The stats are from FourFourTwo, not soccernet.

Johnpaul88:

I like Iniesta a lot and his contributions to barca's style of play. But i do not know why a clué will downplay the contributions of Cesc on the alter of not holding ball under pressure, misplacing passes etc ignoring that this same Cesc has racked up 14 goals and 12 assists including important goals compared to Iniesta's 4 goals and 5 assists. This is what wins u matches not only short passes. Iniesta's injury this season have exercabated also. If not for Cesc helping Messi in scoring, i wonder what would have become of us this season. 

I'm not criticising Cesc. I was all out for us signing him and I think he has been one of our best players this season.

However, there are some flaws as regards his midfield/possession game.

With 87% pass success %, he has the lowest PS% amongst our midfielders. It's a good statistic in general terms if he played for any other team. Take Arsenal for example. Their team average pass succession rate is 84.5 %. In Arsenal he would be clearly above average with his possession game. But he's not playing for any other team. He's playing as a Barcelona midfielder where possession and keeping the ball has the highest priority. Our game's built around that. Barcelona's average pass completion rate is 89.4 %. A Barcelona midfielder is not supposed to have possession game numbers clearly below team average. There are 8 Barcelona players who are better than him in keeping possession, including every other of our midfielders.

Now this statistic doesn't tell anything about the overall quality of a player, before someone gets me wrong. We're just talking about the aspect of his possession game.

His directness can be used to break parked buses. He was fantastic at the Bernabeu. But at the Nou Camp two days ago, he just looked lost in the middle with all the pressure from Real Madrid. Pep took him off only 2 minutes after Real Madrid scored their first goal and were all over us. Now I'll ask this: Would Pep take off one of his players doing well when Real Madrid just look like coming back into the game and replace him by a 20 year old? Not even a tactical sub, but a CM vs CM substitution? He wouldn't. He obviously put Thiago in to stabilise the midfield because he believed Thiago would do better than Fabregas did. Tells you the story when Pep, when shyte hits the fan, replaces someone who played 8 years of first division football at the highest level by a kid who played in the Segunda last season, because the opponent is all over us.

He's young and will learn and adapt though. He's too good not to.

And here's what Cesc himself has to say:

"I'm not happy with my own performance, I have to improve a lot.
"This the boss's system and it's not easy to get it straight away. When I play further forward, I have more mobility and that's a role I can handle – further back I need to have more discipline and I'm missing the patience for that”

^^ Pedantry. . . Should a Barcelona AM be without a league goal at this stage of the season?

coogar:
if you think iniesta does not have the ability to ping 60 yard pass, then you are on your own.

Even Johnny Evans pings accurate 60 yard passes, the question is how well/consistently.

yet, it was iniesta that scored in the final of the world cup. what about that goal suggests he cannot get into dangerous positions and finish exquisitely.
see how he aimed the shot across the goal unlike most strikers who would have gone near post. when iniesta gets into those positions where he's ahead of others, he scores.

Selective amnesia. . . Iniesta has never registered double digits after 8 years as a Barca regular. In fact just two seasons ago he managed just ONE GOAL IN 42 APPEARANCES in all competitions!

they don't need his productivity.
the magnificent seven in barcelona are: puyol, pique, xavi, iniesta, messi, busquets and pedro
barcelona have not lost a game in which those seven players started. fabregas, sanchez, alves, etc are surplus to requirements.

The same Puyol that is being outperformed by Mascherano(a midfielder) in defense? The same Pedro that has been struggling for a while and is now mostly an impact-sub?

it's barcelona carrying fabregas along, not the other way round. they were doing extremely well before his arrival.
like i have said, they don't need his productivity.

When Iniesta and Pedro have a solitary league goal between them all season, they obviously need his productivity!!!

why should it be derailed.
because of assists and goals. . . . .you are saying cesc is better than iniesta.
because of assists and goals. . . . .why isn't nani better than xavi. why isn't david silva better than xavi.

Nuccah can't you read? -

Leighton Baines(for obvious reasons) and Charlie Adam(what are his numbers in the last 3-5 years?) are severely lacking in other areas of the game(where Cesc comfortably matches/betters Iniesta), meaning even if they out-assist him, he's still way ahead of them based on other areas of the game.

on what basis has silva been better than iniesta?

He has played better and more productive football, what other basis is there?

the way different teams play is the pointer. it depends on who the manager has chosen to be the outlet to produce goals, assists and etc.

silva is the most creative player in man city. it makes sense that he's racked that many assists.
if he joins barca, he would be vastly insignificant with xavi, messi, etc eating the lion share of his statistics.
to open your mouth on a public forum and say silva is better than iniesta based on the leadership roles in their respective teams is a tad disgraceful.

"WHY" Silva has been better is irrelevant, the fact is he has. Whether Iniesta has been rubbish because Pep chose to play him at center-back or in goal is his own cup of zobo. Silva will still outscore and out-assist Iniesta if he replaced him in the Barca squad today because he has the ability to do so while Iniesta has been proven not to over the years; irrespective of the presence of Messi or Xavi. Messi and Xavi haven't stopped Cesc from copping 14 goals and 12 assists despite starting only 20 games. Men lie, cougars lie, numbers don't!

if they are more liable to interception/misplacement, how then is fabregas the better passer of the ball than iniesta?

What does the success-rate of through balls have to do with Cesc Fabregas? If Jesus played football he'll also have better accuracy with simpler passes to slightly/un-marked teammates than through-balls which have to beat 1-3 defenders and possibly a covering goalie not to mention the recipient anticipating the direction/trajectory of the pass.

iniesta times his passes and if there's any single doubt his passes would be intercepted, he then tries an alternative route.

Good point. In the same situation Iniesta is liable to play a safe pass that amounts to nothing 99% of the time and drugs-up his pass accuracy, Cesc would spot a run and try and pick out a key-pass. If he tries it 6 times, 2 may be intercepted, 2 may be misplaced, and 2 will create genuine scoring opportunities, one of which will be converted. No risk no reward.

This is precisely why Cesc is head and shoulders above every other player in the world with over 100 assists in the last 5 and a half seasons alone and Iniesta can't hold a candle to it!

ritchboy:

Even Johnny Evans pings accurate 60 yard passes, the question is how well/consistently.

you are a big olodo. you need to stop this bush man's way of debating.
iniesta or any of the other barca players can hit long passes accurately but that is not barcelona's dna.
if you have been paying attention to details, you would see that even cesc fabregas has been reducing his high-risk passing of "hit n hope".
it will not work in barcelona. guardiola would not accept it. barcelona are a possession team - they take low risks with their passing and that's how it is.

Selective amnesia. . . Iniesta has never registered double digits after 8 years as a Barca regular. In fact just two seasons ago he managed just ONE GOAL IN 42 APPEARANCES in all competitions!

because he doesn't have to.
michael carrick did not score a league goal last season and the penultimate season. does that mean he's not better than any of the goal scoring midfielders in arsenal? does alex song have the intelligence of michael carrick? does diaby?
like i have told you, it depends on who the gaffer has made the outlet to launch attacks.
dani alves is the 2nd highest goal maker in barcelona, by your idiotic logic. . . .alves is better than xavi, iniesta, pedro, etc.

and of course, leighton baine is better than cahill.

The same Puyol that is being outperformed by Mascherano(a midfielder) in defense? The same Pedro that has been struggling for a while and is now mostly an impact-sub?

mascherano can't get a game in barcelona. he's a surplus to requirements.
to actually think a young sergio busquets has displaced mascherano(premier league's best defensive midfielder) and yaya toure(the current best defensive midfielder in england) says a lot. puyol will always be puyol. mascherano cannot hold a candle to him unless when puyol is not fit.

When Iniesta and Pedro have a solitary league goal between them all season, they obviously need his productivity!!!

they don't have to score league goals. they are not in the team to stay on top of the statistics charts
iniesta and pedro make the team because they fit into barcelona's mode of playing. cesc fabregas does not fit into it.

fabregas is not a one-touch passer - that part of his game is lacking and this is why he has no fixed position.
he has to fill in the roles of injured players(david villa or pedro). if cesc is that brilliant, why can't he displace iniesta, xavi or even busquets in the midfield?
surely, guardiola and other decision makers in barcelona must have seen cesc's statistics and yet he cannot displace the players with a solitary goal between them.

guardiola has messi and dani alves to get the stats, he does not need iniesta/pedro to do that.

Nuccah can't you read? -

He has played better and more productive football, what other basis is there?

"WHY" Silva has been better is irrelevant, the fact is he has. Whether Iniesta has been rubbish because Pep chose to play him at center-back or in goal is his own cup of zobo. Silva will still outscore and out-assist Iniesta if he replaced him in the Barca squad today because he has the ability to do so while Iniesta has been proven not to over the years; irrespective of the presence of Messi or Xavi. Messi and Xavi haven't stopped Cesc from copping 14 goals and 12 assists despite starting only 20 games. Men lie, cougars lie, numbers don't!

scoring and out-assisting is not the theme of the barcelona squad.
winning games and touching the ball more than their opponents is their aim.

if cesc fabregas is rated so highly, why can't he displace iniesta?
surely, his statistics is not a secret or are you saying you are the only one who knows about it?

mr ritchboy, guardiola does not send cesc's 400 goals/1000 assists per month.
it means shyte. in arsenal and england in general, those stats mean something. . . . .in guardiola's barcelona, it means shyte.
messi gets the lion share of the goals/assists. . . .followed by dani alves. by your logic, alves is better than xavi.

What does the success-rate of through balls have to do with Cesc Fabregas? If Jesus played football he'll also have better accuracy with simpler passes to slightly/un-marked teammates than through-balls which have to beat 1-3 defenders and possibly a covering goalie not to mention the recipient anticipating the direction/trajectory of the pass.

now you get the drift. . . .
the manager wants those safe passes. . . .high risk passes lose barcelona the ball.
guardiola has told you times without number that without the ball, they cannot function very well. . . .so cesc is like a deer caught in the headlights.
he's clueless.

Good point. In the same situation Iniesta is liable to play a safe pass that amounts to nothing 99% of the time and drugs-up his pass accuracy, Cesc would spot a run and try and pick out a key-pass. If he tries it 6 times, 2 may be intercepted, 2 may be misplaced, and 2 will create genuine scoring opportunities, one of which will be converted. No risk no reward.

barcelona have been playing with no risks before cesc joined them. . . . .their football has no risk at all.
it's the reason they have been so successful. guardiola has stated that they play short passes because when they lose it, it's easier for them to hunt in packs and get the ball back asap.

in Snooker you have something called percentage play, you assess your options, and then you make a decision based on your assessment. you might decide that you have a 10% chance of making a pot, but you know you will leave the cue ball safe, so you take that shot on, rather than the 50% chance of a pot where the cueball will leave your opponent in amongst the balls.

barcelona play this game every time. if they don't think there is a very good chance of scoring, they will pass the ball back and start the attacking again, their front men will all change positions and try to pull the opposition out of shape, if that doesn't work, they will do it again. there is very little risk involved.

even if you watch closely, messi's mazy runs are calculated to perfection. his team mates identify the area he is most likely to come unstuck and they will get to that area and close down all angles. that way, if he is tackled, they are usually the first to pick up the ball if it rebounds into open play, or the tacklers options are limited. likewise for a throughball, the player the throughball is intended for will be the only one trying to peel off the defenders shoulder, while his team mates drop back to cut out the angles or steal the ball if it is intercepted.

This is precisely why Cesc is head and shoulders above every other player in the world with over 100 assists in the last 5 and a half seasons alone and Iniesta can't hold a candle to it!

assists + goals = shoulders above every other player in the world even though he's shyte during games.
this simple way of analysing football must make you a genius.

this logic also tells me ryan giggs played better than michael carrick at the emirates even though we learnt this:
ritchboy, limit this daft way of debating to your beer parlour or office lounges, don't bring it online.
goal + assist stats cannot be the only parameter to rate a player. other factors come into play which statistics cannot record.
in technical aspects and football intelligence alone, iniesta is miles above cesc.



cesc would soon be sold back to roma - he's finding it difficult to impose the direct football he learnt in england @ barcelona.
he's useless to barcelona if he cannot keep the ball.

coogar:

you are a big olodo. you need to stop this bush man's way of debating.
iniesta or any of the other barca players can hit long passes accurately but that is not barcelona's dna.

First of all your premise is flawed because even in a Barca shirt, Xavi hits pin-point lofted mid - long-range passes(BECAUSE HE HAS THE ABILITY), you're simply trying to convince me Barca players never hit passes north of 35 yards to cover Iniesta's pale arse. Stop peddling myths nuccah!

Secondly even if Iniesta never hits long passes, we cannot just ASSUME he is as good as Cesc at it when we haven't seen him do it with Cesc's precision/consistency. That would be like assuming Szczesny is a better dribbler or finisher than Messi because goalies don't dribble/shoot much, which is utterly absurd.

because he doesn't have to.

Forwards/AMs don't have to score goals? Interesting perspective!

michael carrick did not score a league goal last season and the penultimate season. does that mean he's not better than any of the goal scoring midfielders in arsenal? does alex song have the intelligence of michael carrick?

Which Arsenal midfielder, Alex Song? Hehehe, Coogar is taking the piss. . . Alex Song may appear to be a run-of-the-mill tough tackling midfield enforcer to simpletons but more astute observers know Song is so much more than that. Just look at his attacking play since Wenger gave him more license to get forward last season. Look at his assist for Henry's goal, the beautiful lob that led to RvP's volley vs Everton or his other mesmeric assist for RvP's header against Dortmund. In short, Song Vs Carrick is an argument for the insane and i refuse to get pulled into it.

like i have told you, it depends on who the gaffer has made the outlet to launch attacks.
dani alves is the 2nd highest goal maker in barcelona, by your idiotic logic. . . .alves is better than xavi, iniesta, pedro, etc.

and of course, leighton baine is better than cahill.

Is your brain in cyclic redundancy or how many times do i have to answer the same stupidass question? Making it bold didn't work the last time so lemme increase the font-size and cross my fingers:

Leighton Baines(for obvious reasons) and Charlie Adam(what are his numbers in the last 3-5 years?) are [size=14pt]severely lacking in other areas of the game(where Cesc comfortably matches/betters Iniesta), meaning even if they out-assist him, he's still way ahead of them based on other areas of the game.[/size]

mascherano can't get a game in barcelona. he's a surplus to requirements.
to actually think a young sergio busquets has displaced mascherano(premier league's best defensive midfielder) and yaya toure(the current best defensive midfielder in england) says a lot. puyol will always be puyol. mascherano cannot hold a candle to him unless when puyol is not fit.

Hot air. . . How does any of this explain the fact Mascherano has been outperforming Puyol(even in full match-fitness) in defence since last season?

they don't have to score league goals. they are not in the team to stay on top of the statistics charts

Iniesta may actually have a small case of being excused, but Pedro? What does he "add to Barca" besides making runs/scoring goals? Oh i forgot, he's an expert at cheating and getting players sent off!   Soon you'll tell me he's also a better passer than Cesc.

iniesta and pedro make the team because they fit into barcelona's mode of playing.

Pedro has been average this season and the last time i checked Cesc was benching him.

cesc fabregas does not fit into it.

Hmmm, one of the finest La Masia graduates in history "doesn't fit" into Barca's system? 20 starts, 14 goals, 12 assists. . . I wonder what the numbers would look like when he actually "fits" into it!

fabregas is not a one-touch passer - that part of his game is lacking and this is why he has no fixed position.

Fabregas is not a one touch passer - that part of his game is lacking - Coogar 2012

he has to fill in the roles of injured players(david villa or pedro).

See above.

if cesc is that brilliant, why can't he displace iniesta, xavi or even busquets in the midfield?

Busquets fulfills a different role, the only comparison i made with Xavi was saying he's a better passer than Cesc. I believe i also said this:

Iniesta can only lay claim to being "arguably" better than Cesc in the current Barcelona setup/style, perhaps because he has a better understanding with Xavi having played with him longer(not an indictment of quality). Any other team/system, Cesc is a (in your own words) "more productive", and superior midfielder.

surely, guardiola and other decision makers in barcelona must have seen cesc's statistics and yet he cannot displace the players with a solitary goal between them.

See above.

guardiola has messi and dani alves to get the stats, he does not need iniesta/pedro to do that.

Conveniently leaving out Cesc(the most productive player after Messi). With Villa, Pedro and Iniesta misfiring, Pep would be thanking Jah he signed Cesc otherwise Barca woulda been relying on Messi to dribble 3 defenders, pass to himself, and score the goal all the time!!

scoring and out-assisting is not the theme of the barcelona squad.
winning games and touching the ball more than their opponents is their aim.

You know of a team that wins league games without scoring goals? I didn't know FIFA have implemented their "70% possession = -1 on the opponent's scoresheet" rule!!!

mr ritchboy, guardiola does not send cesc's 400 goals/1000 assists per month.
it means shyte. in arsenal and england in general, those stats mean something. . . . .in guardiola's barcelona, it means shyte.

Yea, I'm sure Messi is considered the best player in Guardiola's Barca / the world for his good looks, not for his 50+ goals and 20+ assists.

messi gets the lion share of the goals/assists. . . .followed by dani alves. by your logic, alves is better than xavi.

I have proved this line of argument to be idiotic a million times, but for the record Cesc and Xavi get more goals/assists than Alves in case you can't count!

now you get the drift. . . .
the manager wants those safe passes. . . .high risk passes lose barcelona the ball.
guardiola has told you times without number that without the ball, they cannot function very well. . . .so cesc is like a deer caught in the headlights.
he's clueless.

If the high risk pass has even a 20% chance of creating a clear goal scoring opportunity, then it's more than worth the risk. Stop talking like you have Pep's playbook in pdf on your hard-drive when in reality you just plagiarize, misinterpret, and remix everything you read on zonal-marking.com!

barcelona have been playing with no risks before cesc joined them. . . . .their football has no risk at all.
it's the reason they have been so successful. guardiola has stated that they play short passes because when they lose it, it's easier for them to hunt in packs and get the ball back asap.

in Snooker you have something called percentage play, you assess your options, and then you make a decision based on your assessment. you might decide that you have a 10% chance of making a pot, but you know you will leave the cue ball safe, so you take that shot on, rather than the 50% chance of a pot where the cueball will leave your opponent in amongst the balls.

barcelona play this game every time. if they don't think there is a very good chance of scoring, they will pass the ball back and start the attacking again, their front men will all change positions and try to pull the opposition out of shape, if that doesn't work, they will do it again. there is very little risk involved.

even if you watch closely, messi's mazy runs are calculated to perfection. his team mates identify the area he is most likely to come unstuck and they will get to that area and close down all angles. that way, if he is tackled, they are usually the first to pick up the ball if it rebounds into open play, or the tacklers options are limited. likewise for a throughball, the player the throughball is intended for will be the only one trying to peel off the defenders shoulder, while his team mates drop back to cut out the angles or steal the ball if it is intercepted.

I don't recall disputing any of this, or at least the parts i had time to read

EDIT: Barcelona's game has "no risk AT ALL"? Somehow I'm not surprised considering the fact you think 99% of Torres' problem is Chelsea's midfield, lolololol

assists + goals = shoulders above every other player in the world
this simple way of analysing football must make you a genius.

I was referring to assists alone and not goals or overall ability. Are you so poor you can't pay attention?

even though he's shyte during games.

Shyte during which games? The soccer app on your iPad?

this logic also tells me ryan giggs played better than michael carrick at the emirates even though we learnt this
goal + assist stats cannot be the only parameter to rate a player. other factors come into play which statistics cannot record.

Ok this time let me say it slowly. Reeeeaaaaaddddddd thhhhheeeeeeeeeeee laaaaaaarrrgggeeee teexxxxxxxttttttttttt abbbooooovveeee.

in technical aspects and football intelligence alone, iniesta is miles above cesc.

If "technical aspects" is code for dribbling, then sure. Cesc has a better football brain than Iniesta, this is why he lags behind Cesc in output despite having more ability.


Wow i just realized how long this has become. OK you win!

Guys chill out! Who cares whether Ini or Cesc is the better player? So long as they make their individual contributions to the team in an effective maner, I'm happy!

Strange line-up that Pep is using today. Injuries have not helped matters.

Valdes

Puyol-Pique-Abidal

Alves-Masch-Xavi-Busquests-Adriano

Messi-Cesc

I'll like to see Alves & Adriano get some crosses in for Cesc. These are the times we miss having a proper no 9. Our false 9 Messi is too short for the variation Pep is trying today.

With 2 DMF, we should not be too prone to counter-attacks. All the best to the boys. We need to win this match!

Ouch! Messi's lob was so close!

The 3-5-2 isn't working so well. Looks like the players are confused and are sometimes running into each other. Xavi hasn't stamped his authority in the midfield, Messi & Cesc are too deep most times. Playing 3 at the back is leaving the right flank exposed and Puyol isn't the most mobile player around.

I think Pep should take out Adriano for Pedro and remove one of the defenders. I'll prefer Puyol/Pique to leave - Masch is our mobile defender and Villareal attack with speed, not so much with the aerial ball. Thiago can come in and we switch to 4-3-3, with Alves going back to his normal position and Thiago controlling the midfield with Xavi. Messi, Pedro & Cesc will then push forward.

We have to win this.

We were lucky not to concede a penalty there. Very sloppy defending, in a match where we have more defenders than normal!

I was wrong about bringing in Pedro - he's not even on the bench! Cuenca in for Adriano then. Man, our squad is thin! Soriano really should have been promoted, then sold next summer.

Alexis in for Pique. Good move. Masch is back as CB & I expect Adriano to slot in as LB, abi will Adriano just be in midfield?

Looking like more points dropped.
The team looks stretched.

Damn! We need to score

Tello & Thiago in for Adriano & Xavi.

I guess Xavi is injured - Pep doesn't sub him off when we need goals.

That was close! I think we can nick a slim win here. Else, the league is gone.

OMG! cESC why?

Cesc! OMG

Real madrid loving this, eh?

Marchena in for Villareal. He should have come in earlier na - guaranteed penalty!