@Frosbel

Regarding my approach  to Jo 'I can raise dead people' Agbaje - he should be exposed for the charlatan that he is and should be reminded at every turn that no one is fooled by his lies.

EarsWide:

@Mr Jo 'I can raise dead people' Agbaje

you said
I will tell you what I know is NOT salvation:

1) Giving money to the church, because I expect a reward
2) Giving money to the church, so that the pastors can ride in a private jet and luxury cars
3) Praying for my enemies to die
4) Going to church because I want to see signs and wonders
5) Accepting every lie told by the 419 charlatans.

Regarding salvation, I like to think it is down to two things

1) Loving God
2) Loving your neighbour like yourself.

If we follow these two simple yet difficult concepts then our salvation is assured.

Salvation certainly does not include people believing that a charlatan like you is able to raise dead people.

frosbel:

^^^^

Absolutely, that's all we need to do :

1) Loving God
2) Loving your neighbour like yourself.

You see because it is quite a narrow path to follow, some people must come up with other outward manifestations that have nothing to do with God , but pamper the flesh to continue in sin and make excuse for wickedness.

The truth is that false prophets abound and their diabolical doctrines and lies must be exposed.

However I would personally advice we do not attack in a rude way some of the false prophets but submit them to God and deliver their flock from bondage.

Beautiful posts. At least, there is still hope for Nigeria. Not all of us are lost in this madness

Joagbaje:

Far from it.  I love to be challenged. As long as we dwell on the bible.
My admonition is to my fellow christian . What I taught is based on the word. I don't know if you're born again. Any spiritual knowledgeable person will understand my exhortation.

Lol.  You crack me up. "spiritual knowledgable person"-----"born-again"

Tell those to your members.

Any "spiritual person" would understand the diversity of humanity?
Any "spirituial person" would know religion was used to enslave our fore-fathers?
Any "spiritual person" would know that hardwork and luck results to prosperity and not enriching his fellow man under the guise of "MOG"

You can emulate them, you can worship them, whatever,  THEY ARE MEN and they sin just like you and I.

They lead people to Christ yet they dont live like Christ??  THE IRONY.

Stop the hypocrisy.    

@ Snowwy

What do we do to a pastor that molest the children of the church??

Let him continue while we leave him to God?

What if that child was your Son? what do you do.

We have to address this issues and not just call any tom, d,ick and harry "men of God", did God tell you they are his men?

Check the story of the "WACO" incident in America, Where a "man of God"  told people God told him everyone should commit suicide---AND THEY ALL COMMITTED SUICIDE- BECAUSE NOBODY WANTED TO CHALLENGE THE WORD OF GOD.

No authority should go Un-challenged, except the word of God----not the word of MEN, with their various interpretations-

Why would God give us a Brain---if we decide not to use it.

Snowwy:

@Frosbel,
Loving God and our neighbour is all we need to do like you say.
However, do you know what loving God entails or loving our neighbour?
Jesus narrowed it down to two commandments but a lot springs forth and this is what true christians do today.
Calling people names (when you do not know all information required) does not constitute loving your neighbour, backbiting and slandering does not include loving your neighbour, bearing false witness does not include loving your neighbour.
Loving God entails following his commandments, laws and words and it is a lot o, we need God's grace and mercy.

Nope sir, I personally have not and do not call people names. I am not sure that maybe we should not specifically attack certain so called MOG by name, but we MUST attack and expose false doctrine and heresy, anywhere it is encountered.

Titus 3:10
10A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;

But if you research into the New Testament, specifically Paul's writings, He called out many false apostles and teachers by name.

In fact in the New Testament, many of the so called MOG who propagate false doctrine will not have a stood a chance with the Apostles. They would have been branded false teachers.

While I agree we should not slander, we should nevertheless TELL THE TRUTH for all to see and be delivered.

That is precisely the point, you use bible verses such as 'do not judge ' in the wrong context.

By their fruits you shall know them my brother.

Lives and souls of men have been damaged, hurt and destroyed because of many false MOG attributing to themselves the status of a POPE over the congregation, making merchandise of the flock, stealing people’s wives and mingling with the corruptness of political influences.

Sorry not all of us will be threatened with certain misquoted biblical verses to STOP SAYING the TRUTH.

@Snowwy

It is not slander to say Ashimolowo is a con for telling people to donate U.S DOLLARS in Ghana.
It is not slander to say Ashimolowo is a con man for telling people to 'sow a seed' for a 24 hrs miracle.
It is not slander to say Oyedepo is a charlatan for telling people to curse their enemies.-  Remember command number 2.
It is not slander to say T B Joshua is a charlatan for faking healings and trying to bribe journalists.
It is not slander to say Oyedepo is greedy for having 3 jets.

I could go on an on.

It seems stating facts is somehow considered slander by prosperity gospel advocates - this is where the problem lies.

And finally it is certainly not slander to say Jo Agbaje is a liar when he says he can raise dead people.

Joagbaje:

This thread is not about crime. If a man commits a crime . He should face the music legally. Either he be a man of God or man of the devil. This thread us about Walls of doctrinal diferences in the churches  lack of tolerance of others based on doctrines .

You are a very funny dude?

Your post indicated we should leave "men of God" alone.

I gave a reason and example why we cant leave these self-acclaimed "men of God" alone in reference to your post.

Then you say this thread is not about crime??


Why then use a generic term, (Men of God),that criminals and paedophiles use??

@dare2think,
Jesus has clearly stated what should be done below:

Matthew 18;15-17
15" If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.
16" But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
17" If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.]

Ofcourse in the case of such abuse, the Pastor and his wife would need to be summoned and rebuked, however the gravity might also involve you telling the pastor to confess to the church. Yes, if that is an option many will not do it anymore.
If he refuses, you notify him that you will announce it yourself (possibly during testimony time or something if you would not have opportunity to take the microphone at another time), so let him chose. That is church my brother.

So the church can decide what next to do or if the authorities can be called in.
I hope this answers your question.

No one ever says you should not challenge if you are convinced by the word but who are you challenging? That is my grouse with a lot of you guys,

Lions and sheep both belong to the "animal" kingdom - that does not make them brethren.

The Apostles of Christ AND the Pharisees/Sadducees were all Jews but were not brethren

I am not brethren with a lazy criminal who sees the Gospel as a means to self gain

Joagbaje:

This thread is not about crime. If a man commits a crime . He should face the music legally. Either he be a man of God or man of the devil. This thread us about Walls of doctrinal diferences in the churches  lack of tolerance of others based on doctrines .

dare2think:

You are a very funny dude?

Your post indicated we should leave "men of God" alone.

I gave a reason and example why we cant leave these self-acclaimed "men of God" alone in reference to your post.

Then you say this thread is not about crime??


Why then use a generic term, (Men of God),that criminals and paedophiles use??

He is yet to answer a similar but more direct question i asked him on another thread. Not holding my breadth for and answer though.

Snowwy:

@dare2think,
Jesus has clearly stated what should be done below:

Matthew 18;15-17
15" If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.
16" But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
17" If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.]

Ofcourse in the case of such abuse, the Pastor and his wife would need to be summoned and rebuked, however the gravity might also involve you telling the pastor to confess to the church. Yes, if that is an option many will not do it anymore.
If he refuses, you notify him that you will announce it yourself (possibly during testimony time or something if you would not have opportunity to take the microphone at another time), so let him chose. That is church my brother.

So the church can decide what next to do or if the authorities can be called in.
I hope this answers your question.

No one ever says you should not challenge if you are convinced by the word but who are you challenging? That is my grouse with a lot of you guys,

Wooooooooooooooooooooooow !!!!!!!

Brother context and I say context again.

It says "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault"

It does NOT say if you see false doctrine and teachings that you should IGNORE IT.

So much for Nigerian brand of pentecostal-ism.

@Frosbel,
So much for not having patience and understanding my response.

dare2think asked me:
What do we do to a pastor that molest the children of the church??

Let him continue while we leave him to God?

What if that child was your Son? what do you do.

Which I answered. Cool down now,

@Snowwy

you quoted Math 15

If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.

So why did Oyedepo have a dedicated service praying for the destruction of enemies ? Is it alright to call him a charlatan now ?

nuclearboy:

Lions and sheep both belong to the "animal" kingdom - that does not make them brethren.

The Apostles of Christ AND the Pharisees/Sadducees were all Jews but were not brethren

I am not brethren with a lazy criminal who sees the Gospel as a means to self gain

Absolutely, the Tares and Wheat are not of the same fold.

The wheat ( true brethren living pure lives ) are harvested for salvation at the end times while the tares ( false brethren living in sin ) are gathered up to be burned also at the final time of harvest.

So we might belong to the same physical FOLD but we are not all of the same FOLD which is of JESUS.


"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.1The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 13:36-42

@ snowwy

I am challenging certain MEN with questionable characters not God.

Earwide,
You answered the question in the very quote you highlighted. If there is nowhere in your bible where enemies are destroyed (esp those who refuse to leave you alone despite entreaties), then you should have found a way to ask the man of God where the scripture is that one should pray against enemies.


Oh you must have watched it at home, ok send a message to the numbers on the screen or send an email.


I still wonder how you seem to hate these 'charlatans' but you spend all your time watching their programmes and castigating them on nairaland.
It says a lot about you.

Coming online to now start castigating and criticising what you could as well have gotten answers from the source of the statement is what is wrong, ok.
Or are you scared to meet them face to face?

@Froebel

frosbel:

I personally have not and do not call people names. I am not sure that maybe we should not specifically attack certain so called MOG by name, but we MUST attack and expose false doctrine and heresy, anywhere it is encountered.

I agree with you here . I'm not against anyone proving his convictions by the scriptures. I want my teaching and exhortation to be judged by scriptures and your teachings and any doctrine. But when it enters insults abuses and name callings, We are no longer working in the love of christ.

But if you research into the New Testament, specifically Paul's writings, He called out many false apostles and teachers by name.
In fact in the New Testament, many of the so called MOG who propagate false doctrine will not have a stood a chance with the Apostles. They would have been branded false teachers.

Paul was an apostle. He had right to protect his followers . Just as any pastor can warn his members against certain people who cause divisions and offences. But you won't find anywhere where brethren are told to insult their pastors or leaders. Correction is from up down. Brethren were rather told not to judge One another based on doctrinal difference.

Romans 14:4
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Paul was firm, he would not allow anyone bring false teaching to his congregation. But he is not going about attacking everyone he doesn't agree with. He obviously didn't agree with all that James stood for . But as long as they don't force it on his own members. He only had to rebuke Peter openly because it was his church and he must protect them from false doctrine.

Sorry not all of us will be threatened with certain misquoted biblical verses to STOP SAYING the TRUTH.

The truth you know should be told. In the spirit of love of christ. But how correct is your "truth" is another question. That's why we must follow scriptures even in our so called correction. You don't attack a child of God. You don't call a christian names . These are Gods beloved. If you don't agree with them. Simply prove your point by scriptures. The Word of God is the light. Whatever truth you can't prove with scriptures cannot be proven by insults and abuses.

Even if someone is wrong, and you use a wrong approach , will it get the desired result? The correction in the body of christ is for restoration. Not to put others down .

Galatians 6:1
1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Snowwy:

Earwide,
You answered the question in the very quote you highlighted. If there is nowhere in your bible where enemies are destroyed (esp those who refuse to leave you alone despite entreaties), then you should have found a way to ask the man of God where the scripture is that one should pray against enemies.


Oh you must have watched it at home, ok send a message to the numbers on the screen or send an email.


I still wonder how you seem to hate these 'charlatans' but you spend all your time watching their programmes and castigating them on nairaland.
It says a lot about you.

Coming online to now start castigating and criticising what you could as well have gotten answers from the source of the statement is what is wrong, ok.
Or are you scared to meet them face to face?

Out of curiosity can you tell me why MOG applies only to these ministers.

Did you realise that once you are born again and filled with the Spirit you are also a MOG ?

Why is this title reserved only for certain people. Reminds me of the title of 'saint' in the catholic church which only applies to a few , whereas in the bible we are all saints if we are truly converted.

@Snowwy

you said

If there is nowhere in your bible where enemies are destroyed (esp those who refuse to leave you alone despite entreaties), then you should have found a way to ask the man of God where the scripture is that one should pray against enemies

You guys cannot help yourselves - you are still trying to justify this charlatan. What do you mean by 'esp those who refuse to leave you alone despite entreaties' ? Why cant we just pray for God's protection ? Why add the destruction bit ?

I still wonder how you seem to hate these 'charlatans' but you spend all your time watching their programmes and castigating them on nairaland.
It says a lot about you

If you think knowledge is expensive - try ignorance.
How do you think I came to my conclusion about the prosperity gospel - it was by watching a number of these charlatans and seeing the common flaws, cons and tricks in their messages.

@Joagbaje

But when it enters insults abuses and name callings, We are no longer working in the love of christ.

I agree we should not resort to abuse, it is ungodly and unchristian like. Even angel Michael did not abuse Satan when disputing over the body of Moses but said the Lord rebuke thee.

Just as any pastor can warn his members against certain people who cause divisions and offences. But you won't find anywhere where brethren are told to insult their pastors or leaders. Correction is from up down. Brethren were rather told not to judge One another based on doctrinal difference.

Did you know that the church hierarchical  system where you have one man at the top and others follow is unbiblical ? Because if that man made a mistake the whole congregation is going down with him.

But if you had elders and overseers then if one errs from the faith, the others will bring him back into line if he makes a mistake or kick him out of the fellowship if he refused to repent.

Also tell me , how can a Pastor correct his sheep if he himself is in error ?

Romans 14:4
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

There is a difference between judging and pointing out the truth. This 'do not judge' statement has been used and abused. We should not judge people but in fear pray for them hoping to save them out of the fire.

But we must fight if they intend to spread their poison to the church at large and destroy the lives of men. In this case we should never keep quiet.

Paul was firm, he would not allow anyone bring false teaching to his congregation. But he is not going about attacking everyone he doesn't agree with. He obviously didn't agree with all that James stood for . But as long as they don't force it on his own members. He only had to rebuke Peter openly because it was his church and he must protect them from false doctrine.

Paul was not the sole head of the church, he was an overseer and from time to time visited all other churches who were ruled in servitude by elders. The apostles were careful of false doctrine and kept each other in check.

Even if someone is wrong, and you use a wrong approach , will it get the desired result? The correction in the body of christ is for restoration. Not to put others down

.

Absolutely , correction is for restoration. But those who do not even acknowledge their sins talk less of seeking forgiveness, how can they be restored ? Not to talk of those who are not Christians at all but entered the ministry to make a quick buck of the back of God's precious sheep.

Galatians 6:1
1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Yes, if a believer falls into sin, error or a fault.

Provided he admits his fault and repents. There is no forgiveness without repentance.

@ joagbaje
abeg you were saying something about Apostle Paul in your original post following everybody and noticing his calling to d jews.PLS THROW MORE LIGHT.

dare2think:

@ snowwy

I am challenging certain MEN with questionable characters not God.

Really? So who are these men with 'questionable characters' and what channels are you using to question them. At least its biblical to question them directly first you know.


@Frosbel,
We are all men of God. People use different terms for them and these terms might now have become a norm.


However, some people like Earswide seem to think they are only called so because they 'take' tithes and offerings and they are the ones that preach and lead people to Christ and are meant to be the ones to help the needy and be accountable for it, while he was not given the task to preach the word from what he has posted.
So they now take up the sole task to castigate and criticise these men while not doing anything themselves.

EarsWide:

@Snowwy

you saidYou guys cannot help yourselves - you are still trying to justify this charlatan. What do you mean by 'esp those who refuse to leave you alone despite entreaties' ? Why cant we just pray for God's protection ? Why add the destruction bit ?
If you think knowledge is expensive - try ignorance.
How do you think I came to my conclusion about the prosperity gospel - it was by watching a number of these charlatans and seeing the common flaws, cons and tricks in their messages.

Ok, it seems you are yet to come to your conclusion since you are still watching them.

Also, it is not a wonder that you have nothing to offer to edify the brethren since you watch the programs strictly to find faults.

Others are reading the bible and getting inspiration from the Holy Spirit and watch the programs and gain more insight, you are watching it to find fault then come online to criticise.
You have a time-consuming job and it is not in anyway adding value to you.

frosbel:


Out of curiosity can you tell me why MOG applies only to these ministers.
Did you realise that once you are born again and filled with the Spirit you are also a MOG ?

Why is this title reserved only for certain people. Reminds me of the title of 'saint' in the catholic church which only applies to a few , whereas in the bible we are all saints if we are truly converted.

Please don't let us go there .why are we against ministers. The term  MOG or Man Of God has always refer to ministers . Every christian is a minister.  But MOG  refers to an ordained minister.

@Snowwy, you said

However, some people like Earswide seem to think they are only called so because they 'take' tithes and offerings and they are the ones that preach and lead people to Christ and are meant to be the ones to help the needy and be accountable for it, while he was not given the task to preach the word from what he has posted.
So they now take up the sole task to castigate and criticise these men while not doing anything themselves

Are you trying to guilt me into silence ? 

It wont work I am afraid - my lack of preaching the gospel does not preclude me from calling out the charlatans.

So for example because I do not preach the gospel - I should accept that Jo Agbaje really did raise a dead girl ? Really ??

I am sorry Snowwy - I WILL KEEP CALLING OUT THE CHARLATANS (AND THEIR DEFENDERS)

Joagbaje:

Please don't let us go there .why are we against ministers. The term  MOG or Man Of God has always refer to ministers . Every christian is a minister.  But MOG  refers to an ordained minister.

Please can you show me in the bible , scripture to back up this unusual statement ?

@Snowwy

you said

Others are reading the bible and getting inspiration from the Holy Spirit and watch the programs and gain more insight, you are watching it to find fault then come online to criticise

What insight does one get from watching Ashimolowo asking for DOLLARS in Ghana ? Or watching Oyedepo asking for destruuction of enemies ? Or watching T B Joshua 'figthing with demons' ?

You can bury your head in the sand if you please - but as you can see for yourself other people have opened their eyes and can see these charlatans for what they are

EarsWide:

@Snowwy, you said

Are you trying to guilt me into silence ? 

It wont work I am afraid - my lack of preaching the gospel does not preclude me from calling out the charlatans.

So for example because I do not preach the gospel - I should accept that Jo Agbaje really did raise a dead girl ? Really ??

I am sorry Snowwy - I WILL KEEP CALLING OUT THE CHARLATANS (AND THEIR DEFENDERS)

It's a free forum now. Why would I want to make you feel guilty? Are you beginning to feel guilting?  

It is your choice now.
You seem to prefer to work of a critic (one that Christ never gave you) over preaching the gospel (the great commission) because it is obviously easier for you.
These men are preaching the gospel and winning souls and you are yet to do one of that.

At least Christ said not me, that whatever measure you use to judge will be used for you. It is simple and even worse cause you have put them on a measure yourself.

So since these men are 'fake' to you yet they are still preaching the word and leading souls to Christ, you need to have a great alibi to God to say what you were doing all this while. I can bet you, God will say He never sent you on this your self-called assignment.
Have fun while at it.

@ joagbaje

ordained by who?

Joagbaje:

Please don't let us go there .why are we against ministers. The term  MOG or Man Of God has always refer to ministers . Every christian is a minister.  But MOG  refers to an ordained minister.

^^^

frosbel:

Please can you show me in the bible ,  scripture to back up this unusual statement ?

While Christ Himself said "call no man master, call no man teacher, call no man father for you have only the One Father in Heaven, the One Teacher in the Holy Spirit and the One Master in The Almighty", they have created their own devices.

It was not for nothing that the Word says "they honor me with their mouths but their hearts are far from me".

Simple truth is they esteem their traditions higher than the Word of God.

These are the Religious teachers of today, DIRECTLY DESCENDED from the Pharisees


@dare2think/spamdare:

Your question hits at the heart of the matter - Chris Yaks is a spiritual vagabond who ordained himself. Or well, maybe his worshipers here can tell us who ordained him and when/where because they will say God. Interestingly, my dog was also ordained and before him too that same day. It was my dog's piss that was used as anointing oil for him when they ordained him

@ Joagbaje
l like the concept but do you think any of those critics would make any sense of it nonetheless please l would ask you to kindly spell out some of those gray areas Paul and Peter didn't agree and secondly is there any record of the duo ever coming to an agreement.
Also and even more interesting, if all this differences continue to exist as they presently do and in fact more than ever how then are we going to see the fulfillment of Ephesians 4:13

spamdare:

@ joagbaje

ordained by who?

Ordained by God through the ministry of laying on of hands. Paul was ordained . Timothy was ordained. So every christian doesn't have the MOG ordination .

1 Timothy 4:14
14 Don't neglect the gift which you received through prophecy when the spiritual leaders placed their hands on you to ordain you.

@snowwy
What you fail to realise is that those of us you label as critics are actually doing a better job of leading others to christ than your so called MOGs who are leading people away from christ via the false doctrines they preach. We wein souls for christ by putting the gospel in it's proper perspective whilst your charlatan MOGs are placing heavy yokes of false tithes and seed sowing on brethen whilst making promises that never come true and people loosing their faith in the process. Do you know how many people have lost their faith and turned to atheism because of these preachers who are peddling the gospel for private gain? Today through the activities of 'critics' brethen are beginning to realise that the problem is not with the gospel but with false preachers who are manipulating it. Thanks to these critics a lot of people's eyes have now opened and they have re-dedicated themselves to christ and his true gospel devoid of the poison your so called MOGs add to it.