tosnat:

Six lines and absolutely splendid... But when will this work out in Nigeria?

That's the issue. Things are done haphazardly here in nigeria, and that's the reason for the discrimination against technologists. If things were working or done rightly in nigeria nobody will have a reason to discriminate against anyone, because he/she would know already the different function of each. In nigeria i've seen engineers playing the roles of technologist and vice versa, which is wrong.

Yeah yeah...

Whats your discipline?

tosnat: Yeah yeah...

Whats your discipline?

I'm a Statistician.

I worked in the IT department of a nigerian commercial bank as a system/database administrator. I had engineers, technologists and technicians as colleagues. U see engineers even doing the job of technicians and some technicians trying to be engineers. Nobody cares.

See what the Air Force institute of technology kaduna, a polytechnic just did. They have designed and built the first drone in nigeria. Does this not tell us that polytechnics are very relevant and important?

zebra: See what the Air Force institute of technology kaduna, a polytechnic just did. They have designed and built the first drone in nigeria. Does this not tell us that polytechnics are very relevant and important?

That's even a monotechnic...

tosnat:

That's even a monotechnic...

Yes, u're right. Most of their courses are aircraft related; although they also do automobile technology and supply management.

zebra: Point of correction, i'm not a student. I passed thru both systems. I have done ND, HND, and Bsc. I have tasted both schools and can tell u d difference better. Mind u, engineers can do nothing in engineering without the technologists. They compliment the job of d engineers. In d UK, they don't discriminate; engineers and technologist are at par salary wise.

poly grads are like robot machines , we are trained to control them

zebra: @Francomekus: I had to do a Bsc because of the lack of recognition of the HND certificate and the discrimination against holders of HND in nigeria and not because there was no quality in what i learnt in d poly.

hehe .. A good varsity student can comfortably teach a poly lecturer

valdprof: hehe .. A good varsity student can comfortably teach a poly lecturer

Just the same way good poly students teach uni lecturers practicals. Have u ever wondered why some uni lecturers in accounting can not pass ICAN exams while most poly HND graduates do?

The traditional hierarchy inherited from the British did not come about as a result of some compelling rational technical/ functional necessity, or logical development. It was ultimately a continuation of the British class wars -the contest for economic and social space, the result of a class mindset and a child of the politics and psychology of class domination (Daniyan 2008)

Polytechnic education in Nigeria has had a long and windy history of struggles in the face of uncertainties brought on by cloak-and-dagger style policy making. An admixture of inadequate knowledge, phobia and outright insincerity on the part of the policy makers characterizes the approach to society’s most vital institution of self-renewal. A habit of running with the hare (as friends) in the daytime, and hunting with the hounds (enemies) at night.
This is the conclusion from the admission and correction of the wrong done against polytechnic graduates by the Civil Service of the Federation in the Government White Paper in 2006, that removed the career ceiling placed on HND holders after three decades of denial of the truth and the grave consequences it has brought. Orosanye went ahead then by refusing the implementation of the white paper.

valdprof: poly grads are like robot machines , we are trained to control them

We are convinced that the only intent of the Government institutionalized discrimination is the elimination of serious competitors in the deliberately narrowed field of participation created by the lack of industrial and cultural expansion in Nigeria. When next you see anyone brandishing their paper qualifications but not their performance track record, take note that you are seeing an ignorant person covering up the fact with the futile arrogance of paper. He/she is a paper tiger. A tiger does not boast of its ‘tigritude’ [paper/theoretical ability to maul], it will actually tear up somebody, and the case is settled! Tell your paper tiger to SHOW US what he/she has done with the paper degree. It is all part of the culture of waste prevalent in the underdeveloped mind.
We must redeem the day. The Indians (and now)- the Chinese too are already here! Let's stop boasting and let's start doing, and our work will speak for us. The HND/BSc unending discrimination and ensuing debate are one major reason besides "corruption" why Nigeria has failed to industrialize, because those who know are often sidelined and those who don't know get moved into positions of decision making, where they wield power -unfortunately with little real life experience on which to ground their decisions, and so they fail! If you ask me, telling a lie is the root of all corruption. Telling a deliberate lie [when we say a man is "not qualified or not competent" when in fact he is!] - because of the inordinate ambition to gain an upper hand over a good competitor- is corruption. All corrupt acts necessarily begin with a deliberate lie.
That lie sowed the seeds of professional corruption in Nigeria and gave birth to many more lies to cover up the consequences for 35 years.
(Abimbola Daniyan 2008)

WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE? OPTIONS FOR NIGERIAN POLYTECHNICS Polytechnics around the world have been evolving while staying focused on their mission. One key evolutionary development is in nomenclature. Change of name of the institutions awarding degree level qualifications, such as the HND from Polytechnic to University, and also a change in the title of the qualifications obtained from HND/ Diploma to Degree. These changes accommodate the esteem needs of graduates of polytechnics and their teachers and makes for the recognition and ready comparison of the qualifications in line with the general expectations from the traditional tertiary education system popularized by the university. The question may be asked is there a need for these changes in nomenclature in Nigeria? We have a title conscious but performance deficient society that has made aggressive efforts to downgrade the polytechnics in Nigeria to sub-degree status and in the process frustrated many of the nation’s gifted youth. Were the story different, I personally think that HND holders from my generation are very proud of what they have achieved and would retain the name, preserve the heritage of the polytechnic system, and encourage their own children to follow the same path to excellence. But no more; not in the circumstances that we have today. No one would gladly send his own children to a polytechnic, except as a stopgap measure. And that is a real shame and a tragedy for Nigeria. One may ask what is the offence of the polytechnics? None really. Just the result of envy by people who are not sure of themselves, and feel safer with people who are like themselves. People don’t like you when you are confident! It is the psychology of insecurity and scarcity, not of abundance. But abundance is the result of purposeful and intelligent labour, not happenstance or manipulation.
For these reasons, let the polytechnics take on new nomenclature that leaves no one in doubt that system and its graduates are equal to the universities’ and any other of equal standing. Valuable time and lives must not be wasted on nomenclature and status issues again. Let people compete on the basis of capability, and performance, not on unfair advantage. ‘Let a hundred flowers bloom, let a hundred ideas contend’. Water will always find its level. Let polytechnics retain and deepen their National Diploma ND programmes and convert their HND programmes to degree, but retain the essential polytechnic character by deepening the practical content whilst enhancing the grasp of fundamentals.

Hnd-holder:
WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE? OPTIONS FOR NIGERIAN POLYTECHNICS Polytechnics around the world have been evolving while staying focused on their mission. One key evolutionary development is in nomenclature. Change of name of the institutions awarding degree level qualifications, such as the HND from Polytechnic to University, and also a change in the title of the qualifications obtained from HND/ Diploma to Degree. These changes accommodate the esteem needs of graduates of polytechnics and their teachers and makes for the recognition and ready comparison of the qualifications in line with the general expectations from the traditional tertiary education system popularized by the university. The question may be asked is there a need for these changes in nomenclature in Nigeria? We have a title conscious but performance deficient society that has made aggressive efforts to downgrade the polytechnics in Nigeria to sub-degree status and in the process frustrated many of the nation’s gifted youth. Were the story different, I personally think that HND holders from my generation are very proud of what they have achieved and would retain the name, preserve the heritage of the polytechnic system, and encourage their own children to follow the same path to excellence. But no more; not in the circumstances that we have today. No one would gladly send his own children to a polytechnic, except as a stopgap measure. And that is a real shame and a tragedy for Nigeria. One may ask what is the offence of the polytechnics? None really. Just the result of envy by people who are not sure of themselves, and feel safer with people who are like themselves. People don’t like you when you are confident! It is the psychology of insecurity and scarcity, not of abundance. But abundance is the result of purposeful and intelligent labour, not happenstance or manipulation.
For these reasons, let the polytechnics take on new nomenclature that leaves no one in doubt that system and its graduates are equal to the universities’ and any other of equal standing. Valuable time and lives must not be wasted on nomenclature and status issues again. Let people compete on the basis of capability, and performance, not on unfair advantage. ‘Let a hundred flowers bloom, let a hundred ideas contend’. Water will always find its level. Let polytechnics retain and deepen their National Diploma ND programmes and convert their HND programmes to degree, but retain the essential polytechnic character by deepening the practical content whilst enhancing the grasp of fundamentals.

How far with the bill to end the discrimination by some house of rep members?

valdprof: poly grads are like robot machines , we are trained to control them

you have commited hate crime AGAINST HND HOLDERS,
Hate crimes, is a violent act against people or organization because of the group to which they belong or identify with these were tragic part of our history.
This kind of attack takes place on two levels, not only is it an attack on one's physical self, but it is an attack on one's very identity in this case HND certificate.

zebra: How far with the bill to end the discrimination by some house of rep members?

It is not a legislators issue but that of policy
The dichotomy between polytechnic graduates and their university counterparts is a very old one, but the question on the lips of many is: when will it all end? Recently, the Minister of Education told journalists that no formal document has been presented by Federal Government to bring the Higher National Diploma and degree qualifications at par, despite public outcry against the existing dichotomy between the two holders for several years.
The venue and the time of the minister’s disclosure were instructive because it was during a meeting with members of the Academic Staff Union of Polytechnics (ASUP) in Abuja. He informed that at several forums where the issue was verbally raised by the Federal Ministry of Education, the feedback was that it was a decision taken by the National Council on Establishments (NCE).
NCE, is a body of all Heads of Service of the Federation, would have to sit and rectify the decision but a memo was yet to be formally presented to the council. “The best thing is to initiate a memo that can be represented before the national council; and I believe that by the time a case can be made I don’t see why there should be dichotomy,” said the minister, adding that she did not support the discrimination.
In essence, what the minister said has reopened the debate about the old dichotomy which sees polytechnic graduates not rising beyond certain level in the civil service and other government agencies as well as private institutions.

Executive Secretary of the National Board for Technical Education (NBTE), Kaduna, Dr. Masa’udu Adamu Kazaure said that the dichotomy between the polytechnic and university graduates has not been removed.
“At the moment the situation is still the way it was. The dichotomy is there, but we are approaching it through various angles. The Federal Government during former President Olusegun Obasanjo’s tenure approved the removal of the dichotomy but the National Council of establishment is yet to look at it,” he said.

The former Head of the Civil Service of the Federation Stephen Oronsaye refused the Higher National Diploma (HND) as not equivalent to a university degree.
Oronsaye, , said “it is not the same curriculum; that is the truth.”
He said then that the Federal Ministry of Education was currently working on a scheme to enable HND graduates to spend an additional year to obtain “something that will be equivalent to B.Sc or B.Ed.” which was different from the white paper.

Leadership of National Association of Technologists in Engineering (NATE) through its National President of NATE Dr. Leo Okereke has severally appealed to the Federal Government to implement the white paper made from the Ernest Shonekan panel on the disparity between Higher National Diploma (HND) and university degree.

“Many stakeholders have also expressed concern over the treatment meted out to graduates of polytechnic, especially in the federal civil service. Today, in many government institutions, products of polytechnics hardly go beyond level 14 just as many of them are being systematically frustrated out of the service when their juniors are promoted above them, even though HND holders have continuously proved their mettle,” she said.
She urged the federal government and even private companies to stop discriminating against polytechnic graduates, which she said is creating unnecessary animosity between HND and degree holders.

Hnd-holder:
The former Head of the Civil Service of the Federation Stephen Oronsaye refused the Higher National Diploma (HND) as not equivalent to a university degree.
Oronsaye, , said “it is not the same curriculum; that is the truth.”
He said then that the Federal Ministry of Education was currently working on a scheme to enable HND graduates to spend an additional year to obtain “something that will be equivalent to B.Sc or B.Ed.” which was different from the white paper.

Leadership of National Association of Technologists in Engineering (NATE) through its National President of NATE Dr. Leo Okereke has severally appealed to the Federal Government to implement the white paper made from the Ernest Shonekan panel on the disparity between Higher National Diploma (HND) and university degree.

“Many stakeholders have also expressed concern over the treatment meted out to graduates of polytechnic, especially in the federal civil service. Today, in many government institutions, products of polytechnics hardly go beyond level 14 just as many of them are being systematically frustrated out of the service when their juniors are promoted above them, even though HND holders have continuously proved their mettle,” she said.
She urged the federal government and even private companies to stop discriminating against polytechnic graduates, which she said is creating unnecessary animosity between HND and degree holders.

Good to have you back sir. If Albert Einstein were a Nigerian, he would have been relegated to the background for attending Swiss Federal Polytechnic in Zurich. Nigeria will continue to depend on imported technology until we give Polytechnic Education its pride of place. Like you said, the permanent solution to the discrimination issue is to re-brand the Higher National Diploma Programme to a degree programme. Change of nomenclature is all that is needed to do that because in terms of value, HND is equivalent to first degree according to World Educational Services evaluation (www.wes.org). The discrimination is completely evil and a major impedance to the technological advancement of this nation.

The reason isn't far-fetched and it starts from the admission processing level..Admission into universities is tougher thereby predisposing the polytechnics to admitting below average students..Let the admission processing into the two institutions be equally competitive and watch the discrimination fade off.

Olofintoto: The reason isn't far-fetched and it starts from the admission processing level..Admission into universities is tougher thereby predisposing the polytechnics to admitting below average students..Let the admission processing into the two institutions be equally competitive and watch the discrimination fade off.

The polytechnics are predisposed to admitting below average students..well said...but why do polytechnic students that find their way into the universities top their 'above average' counterparts in their various fields?..why do they emerge as better and best students despite the fact that they are below averagestudents?...why do they perform better in the industries?.. Why do university graduates turn morons at the industries?..why is it that the industries can't do without HND graduates?.. Particularly in the engineering and technology fields?...you are only fortunate to be in the uni...you aren't any better than those in the polytechnics..

tosnat:

The polytechnics are predisposed to admitting below average students..well said...but why do polytechnic students that find their way into the universities top their 'above average' counterparts in their various fields?..why do they emerge as better and best students despite the fact that they are below averagestudents?...why do they perform better in the industries?.. Why do university graduates turn morons at the industries?..why is it that the industries can't do without HND graduates?.. Particularly in the engineering and technology fields?...you are only fortunate to be in the uni...you aren't any better than those in the polytechnics..

Well said bro. Leave engineering aside, what about accounting? Why are poly HND holders also better in accounting than the uni graduates? Why do poly graduates pass ICAN easily than their varsity counterparts? Let them also answer these.

zebra: Well said bro. Leave engineering aside, what about accounting? Why are poly HND holders also better in accounting than the uni graduates? Why do poly graduates pass ICAN easily than their varsity counterparts? Let them also answer these.

I heard of a guy that studied mechanical engineering at Yaba college of technology, he had upper credit at both national diploma and higher national diploma levels.thereafter,he moved to unilag via direct entry into part 3..news had it that he emerged overall best graduating student with a cgpa of 4.98 or so and was sent to M.I.T in the u.s....that's someone who wasn't able to bag distinction at yabatech...

The universities don't train, what's the essence of theoretical knowledge that isn't applied?..I observed the trend and noticed that graduate engineers seek refuge in the I.c.t industry.then I wonder,why study mechanical or electrical engineering and the run to infotech?..they start a new career, run after ccna,ccia and the likes..bros,they don't know the engineering they studied for five years...not that its their fault..its just that the system is faulty..theory for five years and when they grad,they tend to be unemployable..

Well,whatever we believe,the fact remains that the university certificate is more recognized.. Buh everyone has to understand that its not cos university graduates are better off...its just they way its been..I even had to stop my immediate younger brother from going to a polytechnic I graduated from..

tosnat:

I heard of a guy that studied mechanical engineering at Yaba college of technology, he had upper credit at both national diploma and higher national diploma levels.thereafter,he moved to unilag via direct entry into part 3..news had it that he emerged overall best graduating student with a cgpa of 4.98 or so and was sent to M.I.T in the u.s....that's someone who wasn't able to bag distinction at yabatech...

The universities don't train, what's the essence of theoretical knowledge that isn't applied?..I observed the trend and noticed that graduate engineers seek refuge in the I.c.t industry.then I wonder,why study mechanical or electrical engineering and the run to infotech?..they start a new career, run after ccna,ccia and the likes..bros,they don't know the engineering they studied for five years...not that its their fault..its just that the system is faulty..theory for five years and when they grad,they tend to be unemployable..

Well,whatever we believe,the fact remains that the university certificate is more recognized.. Buh everyone has to understand that its not cos university graduates are better off...its just they way its been..I even had to stop my immediate younger brother from going to a polytechnic I graduated from..

That's good o. I had to advice my younger ones from going close to poly gates.

Which ever way. Some of us can not obtain PhD if not for the Polytechnics Education. The situation is not as bad as painted. A lot of degree holders today are doing the work met for HND even ND.
Graduates are teaching in private Nursery/pry. schools with take home less than N30,000.
Nigerian keep on importing pencils, rulers, biros, spoons, plates, tiles, doors, tables, underwear even tooth picks. Where can our degree graduates work? I can tell you that more than 80% of HND holders are now working with 2nd degree qualifications. Let us all enjoy the dichotomy for as long as it stays with us.

Leadership of National Association of Technologists in Engineering (NATE) are planning legal option to implement the white paper made from the Ernest Shonekan panel on the disparity between Higher National Diploma (HND) and university degree. They need the help of all concerned

Today’s Technology graduates are definitely not the same as the 1948 pioneers; Let us recalled the renaming of Yaba Technical Institute as Yaba College of Technology in 1963. Yaba students went on strike in 1969 calling for the abrogation of the Higher Technician Diploma and autonomy for the College. In July 1969, Decree No. 23 was promulgated after students’ agitation which necessitated shutting down the institution for five weeks! The old Technical Institute has at last graduated into motherhood.

Section 1 (a) of Decree 23 of July 1969 states:-
“To provide courses of Instruction, Training and RESEARCH in Applied Science, Technology, Commerce, Management, and such other field of learning as the Council may from time to time determine”.

A comparison of Decree 23 of 1969 which re-established the Yaba College of Technology with the University of Lagos Decree 3 of 1967 is quite revealing:-
1 (3) The objects of the University shall be:-
1 (3) (b) “To provide courses of instruction and other facilities for the pursuit of learning in all its branches, and to make those facilities available on proper terms to such persons as are equipped to benefit from them”.
1 (3) (c) “To encourage, promote and conduct research in all fields of learning and human endeavor”

The Decree 23 of 1969 was nothing but a fulfillment of the philosophy that gave birth to polytechnic education the world over and it was indicative of the level of technological development in post-independence Nigeria.

Discrimination between HND Holders and
University Graduates in Nigeria
http://www.sosmaitonline.com/2013/10/hnd-bsc-discrimination-nigeria.html

Ebuka Nwadike, this is a serious matter

I still maintain that HND holders are technically and theoretically better than Bsc holders. HND holders sit and write exams for some of them, HND holders do practical and theoretical projects for them, HND holders lecture them in tutorials and other professional exams (i'm a living witness to these). Why then the feelings that the HND is lower than the Bsc?

This issue is policy of hatred that sink countries that are not wise like NIGERIA. A good debate that holds no water

Hndholder:
This issue is policy of hatred that sink countries that are not wise like NIGERIA. A good debate that holds no water

i pray the govt settles the issue. It's really killing Nigeria.