MetaPhysical:


I have no conclusions, only questions exist in my mind. If I have any bias it is in favor of oral records having more authenticity than Eurocentric publications about Yoruba.

I just recently asked a page or two ago that could it be possible Oduduwa coming to Ife was a return to roots. So I am not concluded in favor of one above the other as origin but I am thoroughly convinced that a connection far more than just a chance exist between Yoruba and spiritual Canaan.

Aare and Aaron, Araba and Rabbi, Nineveh/Levite and Ile Ife, similarity of form and function of the Mesopotamian Crowns and Yoruba Crowns..and many others that border or are actual participation in the idea of altar, rituals and devotion.

We hear Oduduwa is a foreigner. What we are doing is chasing footprints to establish where he is from. I am not a fan of the Israelite origin. My push is for Ancient Hebrew origin, which is far broader and more expansive than Israel.

I find it challenging to see us believing that EUROCENTRISM was the reason YORUBA as being taunted to be from ISRAEL. HAVE YOU COME ACROSS THE WORD USERE -MAGBO?, My knowledge on the Europeans is that they don't love anything that has to do with AFRICANS because of their beliefs about savagery attitudes of Africans but were shocked to see something different from a people whose ideologies is directly like theirs. Trust me, if the YORUBA didn't have all these traits, they wouldn't dare go near it or studying them. Do you have knowledge of the shawls placed on the shoulders of the Yoruba priests ? You will see it in TORAH. I love my race so much because of the self pride, unlike some tribes that believes so much in identifying with the present day Israel. The amazing aspects of the ancient Hebrews and Yoruba is that they were not whites Race . And they claim that their father was a divine descendants from God. Will these not make the European go crazier seeing traces of ancient East culture in YORUBA LAND ? Yoruba history and religion is too close for a comfort to the historians and archeologists . The Yoruba sculptures needed to be studied more by Yoruba archeologists but where is the funding? These are the reasons Many Yorubas still doubt the authenticity of these information. And these Europeans have the funds and they know more about us than you and I do.

MetaPhysical:


You can stay in England and study the history of place A and publish on it using library resources alone and never putting foot in A. My contention is you cannot do that with Yoruba because our history, spiritualism, arts, beliefs are all interwoven and hard to separate.

If you follow the discussions of this thread from opening it becomes clear, that even people on ground in Yoruba are committing same error and calling rites of worship a history.

Where in Africa, beside the Yorubas, do you find people prostrating? I am yet to identify a culture not Yoruba that prostrates. Prostration in Yoruba are two types, a show of reverence for age and wisdom and the head is held up from the ground, and then a prostration in which we kiss the ground with the forehead in homage to the Orishas and conciliation of the material man to the spirit realm.

So if for example we find that the Akans also prostrate, then in what respect and what is the significance value of the act, in other words...if the act is not performed what is the consequence?


To Iranje,
In reference to your statement about studying history and cultures indeoendently,not for comparison, if you come across an aspect of a people that repeats elsewhere does it arouse your curiosity as to whether or not a vommon thread exist between the two separate and distinct cultures?

it is due to the absence of written history in the culture, although Yorubas had a secrete writing system under the Olurogbo cult still being studied, I don't think it was used for recording historical events.

I didnt know the Akan also prostrate, Also prostration has been performed by the Polynesian people to honour dying Chiefs and Priests, the Chinese have the Kowtow tradition quite similar to Yoruba Idobale. It would be rather silly for any of us to begin to give Chinese origin for Yorubas based on this alone. the consequence of this act in my opinion is the understanding of the human mind, certain acts performed across cultures is rather a pointer to how the human mind relates with common aspects of life than a mutual origin. these acts could have developed independently, one didnt have to have ancestry in the other, or share a common origin. Take for instance the idea of tattooing for various purposes around the world, does this mean Yoruba and Samoans or Indians or Japanese share a common origin. I should also mention that the Hebrews did not have tattoos

IranjeIdita:



Oduduwa, the human, has become so spiritualized, mythicized and embellished so much and these unrealistic stuff form the basis of the conclusion you are painting about the man.

From the other thread I guessed your ancestry was connected to Giesi.

A quick look at Giesi's history shows he was a child of a female. He was the son of Ogboru's daughter. Yes, the Ogboru that founded Ife Odan and the progenitor of Sijuade's compound/royal line.

Lafogido (Oranmiyan's grandson), Osinkola (Lafogido's son), Ogboru (Osinkola's brother & Giesi's grandfather ) & Giesi (connected to Owa Luusi) were all Oranmiyan's offsprings - very distant to Oduduwa if you ask me.

From my personal further research to be sure Owa Luusi was from Giesi house, I found that Owa Luusi's folks migrated out of Ife truly but the connection between Owaluusi & Giesi may have been because Ajamaye came to Ife to fight in the Modakeke war which happened during the time of the present Ooni's grandfather Ojaja the first also known as 'Ayikiti ninu aran' which earned him the name Ayikiti.

From the Oriki of the present Ooni, it says 'mo nlo re igbo dey omo Luusi' - I am going to wait in the forest/bushes for the child of Luusi. This excerpt only states the Ayikiti's exploits during the war and the fact that he conscripted Omo Luusi (the child of Luusi - prince Ajamaye) into his army to fight the Modakeke.

In simpler terms, Ayikiti (Ooni Ogunwusi's) grandfather and Ajamaye (Omo Owa Luusi) were war comrades and that is where it stops.

Your patrilineal claim to Oduduwa is what confuses me a bit.

- is it based on your people's emigration from Ife? A number of thrones and cities were founded by Ife emigrants most who were not from ife royal families but hunters, artisans, curious travellers etc.

- is this based on the fact that Ajamaye fought on Ayikiti's team against Modakeke?

- Or do you assume you are connected to Giesi Royal house?

If the latter is what you've latched on to then keep in mind that Giesi himself was of matrilineal line. And also, Oranmiyan was the progenitor of the ruling houses not Oduduwa. Oduduwa comes into the picture as grandfather & great grandfather, quite distant.

Only those from Idio house have direct claims to Oduduwa. Every Ooni is much more connected to Oranmiyan than Oduduwa and Oonis' claims to Oduduwa are no more than that of Eluyemi and any Yoruba son & daughter who regards Oduduwa as the progenitor.

Professor Eluyemi was a an initiate of Orisa in Ife, an initiate of Ife traditional Ogboni, he became the Apena of the Ogboni, and a traditional chief in Ife. If you know not, initiating into Orisa or being from an orisa lineage earns you surface information except you initiate into Ogboni then you get all the information you need but then bound in secrecy.

Your claim to Oduduwa is not solid if you are not from Idio. Your claim here is surface at best and what anyone can claim.

Cheers.

How are you sure Oranmiyan owns the ruling house? The throne didn't belong to Oranmiyan but ODUA. So, get your facts right. Giesi was not the father of Owa luusi . I don't want to go further on that aspect but I am from a patrilineal lineage. How many LUUSI do you know migrated out of ILE IFE? Either way, Omo ko ni ile baba ko ma ni ti Iya. Record don't lie.... It is not about egocentrism but the truth. I am not here to discuss my heritage based on pride. In fact being born to that lineage doesn't make me see myself superior to anyone because IBI TI ORI DA MI SI NIYEN. And on the info I doled out was because of brotherhood with someone else on this platform. So kindly do not go there again . And Ajamaiye came back to fight on behalf of his father's patrilineal throne . Even if you see me on the road, you can't IDENTIFY me because we are trained as OMOLUABI. What is your oriki?. Lastly, YOU CANNOT DECODE THE EULOGY OF OONI BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND YORUBA FROM YOUR INTERPRETATION and confirm before you draw battle line...EMI OMO AROGUN DADE.....OMO AROTE MÀBERU...................OMO ALAGADA OGUN......KAARE O' BA.
What family tree uses that eulogy? Let us concentrate on the subject matter. God bless you

IranjeIdita:



Oduduwa, the human, has become so spiritualized, mythicized and embellished so much and these unrealistic stuff form the basis of the conclusion you are painting about the man.

From the other thread I guessed your ancestry was connected to Giesi.

A quick look at Giesi's history shows he was a child of a female. He was the son of Ogboru's daughter. Yes, the Ogboru that founded Ife Odan and the progenitor of Sijuade's compound/royal line.

Lafogido (Oranmiyan's grandson), Osinkola (Lafogido's son), Ogboru (Osinkola's brother & Giesi's grandfather ) & Giesi (connected to Owa Luusi) were all Oranmiyan's offsprings - very distant to Oduduwa if you ask me.

From my personal further research to be sure Owa Luusi was from Giesi house, I found that Owa Luusi's folks migrated out of Ife truly but the connection between Owaluusi & Giesi may have been because Ajamaye came to Ife to fight in the Modakeke war which happened during the time of the present Ooni's grandfather Ojaja the first also known as 'Ayikiti ninu aran' which earned him the name Ayikiti.

From the Oriki of the present Ooni, it says 'mo nlo re igbo dey omo Luusi' - I am going to wait in the forest/bushes for the child of Luusi. This excerpt only states the Ayikiti's exploits during the war and the fact that he conscripted Omo Luusi (the child of Luusi - prince Ajamaye) into his army to fight the Modakeke.

In simpler terms, Ayikiti (Ooni Ogunwusi's) grandfather and Ajamaye (Omo Owa Luusi) were war comrades and that is where it stops.

Your patrilineal claim to Oduduwa is what confuses me a bit.

- is it based on your people's emigration from Ife? A number of thrones and cities were founded by Ife emigrants most who were not from ife royal families but hunters, artisans, curious travellers etc.

- is this based on the fact that Ajamaye fought on Ayikiti's team against Modakeke?

- Or do you assume you are connected to Giesi Royal house?

If the latter is what you've latched on to then keep in mind that Giesi himself was of matrilineal line. And also, Oranmiyan was the progenitor of the ruling houses not Oduduwa. Oduduwa comes into the picture as grandfather & great grandfather, quite distant.

Only those from Idio house have direct claims to Oduduwa. Every Ooni is much more connected to Oranmiyan than Oduduwa and Oonis' claims to Oduduwa are no more than that of Eluyemi and any Yoruba son & daughter who regards Oduduwa as the progenitor.

Professor Eluyemi was a an initiate of Orisa in Ife, an initiate of Ife traditional Ogboni, he became the Apena of the Ogboni, and a traditional chief in Ife. If you know not, initiating into Orisa or being from an orisa lineage earns you surface information except you initiate into Ogboni then you get all the information you need but then bound in secrecy.

Your claim to Oduduwa is not solid if you are not from Idio. Your claim here is surface at best and what anyone can claim.

Cheers.

LUSI WAS A VERY GREAT WARRIOR PRINCE..... Olusi as the head and leader of the contingent, left ile-Ife on that fateful day with two traditional beaded crowns, a wooden stool with a carved image (status) of tiger and crown resting on a suspended royal swords, a tiger skin, a royal staff of office made of brass with a status of a crown on top, war and hunting paraphernalia, beads, white horse tails, royal calabashes one of which contained water from Esinmirin stream from Ile-ife; protective charms of various kind, a tortoise and other kingly regalia which are today attached to the sacred and royal throne of OLUSI


NOW TELL ME ,WHO IS HE? HAVE I INFORMED WRONGLY? SO ADDRESS ME PROPERLY AND NOT AS FROM A GREAT HUNTER'S FAMILY.....

Olu317:
LUSI WAS A VERY GREAT WARRIOR PRINCE..... Olusi as the head and leader of the contingent, left ile-Ife on that fateful day with two traditional beaded crowns, a wooden stool with a carved image (status) of tiger and crown resting on a suspended royal swords, a tiger skin, a royal staff of office made of brass with a status of a crown on top, war and hunting paraphernalia, beads, white horse tails, royal calabashes one of which contained water from Esinmirin stream from Ile-ife; protective charms of various kind, a tortoise and other kingly regalia which are today attached to the sacred and royal throne of OLUSI


NOW TELL ME ,WHO IS HE? HAVE I INFORMED WRONGLY? SO ADDRESS ME PROPERLY AND NOT AS FROM A GREAT HUNTER'S FAMILY.....

Lol how am I supposed to address you?
T start until
At the emboldened:

Since he was a prince and a warrior:

- Prince from which of the royal families?

- what made him a warrior at the time of his emigration? Ife wars with Owu did not start until around 15th/16th C and Ife was badly beaten until Ijebu came to the rescue, Modakeke/Ife stuff didn't start until around 19th c. - outside this, Ife never engaged any known wars.

There were two known princes who were warriors from Ife:

- Odede aka Oranmiyan

&

- Derin aka Ologbenla

Asides these two, no known princes were really warriors as Ife had no standing army nor did it have imperialistic forces requiring conquests.

So, since he was a prince, which of the royal lines did he leave from?

Cheers.

Olu317:
How are you sure Oranmiyan owns the ruling house? The throne didn't belong to Oranmiyan but ODUA. So, get your facts right. Giesi was not the father of Owa luusi . I don't want to go further on that aspect but I am from a patrilineal lineage. How many LUUSI do you know migrated out of ILE IFE? Either way, Omo ko ni ile baba ko ma ni ti Iya. Record don't lie.... It is not about egocentrism but the truth. I am not here to discuss my heritage based on pride. In fact being born to that lineage doesn't make me see myself superior to anyone because IBI TI ORI DA MI SI NIYEN. And on the info I doled out was because of brotherhood with someone else on this platform. So kindly do not go there again . And Ajamaiye came back to fight on behalf of his father's patrilineal throne . Even if you see me on the road, you can't IDENTIFY me because we are trained as OMOLUABI. What is your oriki?. Lastly, YOU CANNOT DECODE THE EULOGY OF OONI BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND YORUBA FROM YOUR INTERPRETATION and confirm before you draw battle line...EMI OMO AROGUN DADE.....OMO AROTE MÀBERU...................OMO ALAGADA OGUN......KAARE O' BA.
What family tree uses that eulogy? Let us concentrate on the subject matter. God bless you

- Oduduwa's sons & daughter had already left Ife when he passed. Obatala's people took over the throne to resume their position until Obalufon Alayemore's time who Oranmiyan waged war with and sent packing. Oranmiyan became the Ooni and gave birth to Lajoodogun who in turn gave birth to Lajamisan who birthed Lafogido the father of Osinkola & Ogboru. Oduduwa started a phase that ended with Obatala's people assuming the throne. Oranmiyan started a phase Ife people are still in today.

- I stated 'I thought Owa Luusi' was fathered by Giesi from your post on the other thread till I did further research. Who then fathered Owa Luusi & which of the royal houses did he leave from?

- It is on record that the kings before Ajamaye set up war camps to train young men in the town. This policy produced warriors who were conscripted to fight for the town or serve as mercinaries. Ajamaye was a mercenary in Ife Modakekr war who was called back home to fill a vacant throne. Nonetheless, we appreciate his contribution.

- My oriki? Let me give you that of my family compound and my line within my family compound:

Ideta mogun dudu, omo a pa iwo l'okuku osun

Omo a pa aja sile, pa iwo si ehin kule ode

Aja moma je, me je iwo abi igi lerun

Omo oni igbin merindinlogun ona ilesun

Ikan re ti'ra aye, ikan re ti'ra orun

Omo onigbin jiji ge ji

I'll pause it here.

So what do you need my oriki for?

- Why and how would I not understand my king's oriki when I have a strong understanding of Ife language and my folks here & back home can always provide light on matters I'm grappling with?

Olu317:
Not so true. IFA is a religion in which it has pattern in keeping an account of the past and a spiritual guide for humanity/believer. The cock, sand, water and ELA(first spoken word) by Eledumare. All these confirm certain fact about Yoruba Religion having knowledge of Biblical God or vice versa. Do you know that ancients ISRAELI DREADLOCKS WERE FORBIDDEN TO DRINK RUM/PALM WINE? . Have you heard of account of Hausa migration? Do you know that Hausas history had knowledge of Middle East?

As a babalawo with Oluwos who are senior babalawos in Ife; as a babalawo whose cousin is Kirindin Awo Idita & as a babalawo with cousins who are very exposed to Ifa - I am aware Ifa contains sections of 1. Mythology mostly for moral lessons. 2. Proper human history 3. Knowledge of herbs/sacrificial material 4. Philosophy.

As a babalawo, I am also aware Ela means:

- clarity, light, clairvoyance as in 'ela rowa' often said before divination or ifa feeding.

- the herbs used for money pursuits mostly in low to mid range grade osole.

Is palm wine not indigenous to Africa, certain parts of Americas & some parts of Asia or am I just ignorant to the fact that palm wine had always been a thing in the middle east?

Ever heard of Arab slave trade? This is where Hausa knowledge of the middle east came from. Hausa as a group is spread across west africa &they participated in the supply of human & non human commodities to the Arab slave trade. There's nothing special or about migration here, it was trade based.

Human history cannot be divorced from their art. Do you agree?
Europeans/Americans spend huge amount of money to find out facts about the beginning of humanity as whole in Africa . But ILE IFE has claimed that it was the first place on earth was not accepted as TRUTH from the archaeological findings. ILE IFE has only proven to develop art as seen as transfer ideology from other part of Africa and Greek Art. How did it have such Similarity while others WEST AFRICA don't , even BINI ART couldn't be compared to ancient ILE IFE ART.

Ile Ife's claim to be the first place on earth should not be taken literally! It is an indirect bragging term by Ife people to say Ife is the foremost Yoruba town that gave life to others.

Please, it is important that you mention what cultures in Africa Ife art shared similarities with.

And did you just say Ife art is similar to that of Greeks?

The age of the Ife heads has not yet been conclusively ascertained, but since it is practically certain that the bronze art of Benin was derived from Ife, there is some data to work on. They first came from Ife to Benin about 1280, after which it must have taken some time for this crude art to develop into the masterpieces which we know, so that the bronze art of Ife cannot have reached its zenith till the thirteenth century at the earliest.

Where are you getting these claims from? All Ife arts have been dated. There are phases to these arts - osupa ijio (a rock that glows like the moon at night time), idena head & a few others are of the BCE; the opa oranmiyan, other obelisks and crocodile carvings etc were dated to have been between 500-800 AD & the popular ori olokun, heads from Wunmonije compound, glass beads etc have been dated post 11th century works.

Please read.

Although both in terra-cotta and bronze the ethnic characteristics of the models are well portrayed, the works resemble the sculpture of ancient Greece or Egyptian art , rather than the culture of black Africa. The anthropologist Frobenius considered a connection with the Mediterranean sphere, and Sir Flinders Petrie in his book on ancient Egypt remarks that if any of the Ife heads had been excavated in the foreign quarter of Memphis, they would have been accepted as larger examples of the local-type. He adds: "The Memphite work cannot have come from the Niger, it is too close in touch with Persia and India; but the idea, and even the workmen, may have come from Egypt to West Africa

Fobreinus stated the works meant Ife was the lost Atlantis and the Ife culture was similar to that of Etruscans.

Why are you using the hamitic hypothesis as a guiding theory or philosophy of your post?

Do you actually think those men said what they said because of resemblances?

Those men said it because Europe largely believed Africans were of least class of man kind and could not invent nor produce anything.

The problem here is, apart from twisting & rendering unrelated stuff to suit your Jewish fantasies, you have gone further to twist a mere wide spread hypothesis in Europe whch Frobenius' work corrected. If you really read Frobenius' work, he explicitly detailed the European view if Africa as a 'dark continent' which triggered his rthnographic explorations.

Read: https://africa.uima.uiowa.edu/chapters/ancient-africa/ife/?start=1

I guess these days everybody is a historian without getting the necessary trainings required for it.

IranjeIdita:


Lol how am I supposed to address you?
T start until
At the emboldened:

Since he was a prince and a warrior:

- Prince from which of the royal families?

- what made him a warrior at the time of his emigration? Ife wars with Owu did not start until around 15th/16th C and Ife was badly beaten until Ijebu came to the rescue, Modakeke/Ife stuff didn't start until around 19th c. - outside this, Ife never engaged any known wars.

There were two known princes who were warriors from Ife:

- Odede aka Oranmiyan

&

- Derin aka Ologbenla

Asides these two, no known princes were really warriors as Ife had no standing army nor did it have imperialistic forces requiring conquests.

So, since he was a prince, which of the royal lines did he leave from?

Cheers.

You have folks who can shed more light on it. Luusi left as far back as 12th/13th/14th century(I won't specify). Ajamaiye was far from him. Princes go back to ILE IFE for initiation into cults and for identification purposes . Do you know what it mean to be from the first wife's descendants in the ancient Yoruba tradition of kingly home?
?. t is quite funny as you referred to 19th century war that happened just less than 150 years back that involved IBADAN/MODAKEKE/OYO BACKING WAR Vs EKITI PARAPO. . How many princes do you know? Do you even know where oranmiyan's mother's from? You don't even know Odede. Do you think Odede came back because he wanted to rule? You better go and learn very well because you aren't well informed.

Olu317:
I AM A PROUD SON OF YORUBA RACE. AND YOU MISSED IT. WHERE DID I MENTION USES OF FLOWERS AS SACRIFICES? .I DIDN'T INFORM AT ANYWHERE THAT THEY DID USE FLOWERS AS SACRIFICES BUT AROUND THE BURIAL GROUND OF THE ANCIENT PRIESTLY FAMILIES OF BOTH OBATALA AND ODUA..... OBATALA 'S LINEAGE HAD ANTELOPE HEADS AND ELEPHANTS HEADS IS ASSOCIATED WITH THEM AS WELL AS FLOWERS (PLANTS) AND ODUA'S ANCIENTS LINEAGE BURIAL SPOT WAS ASSOCIATED WITH RAM AND HIPPOPOTAMUS(The spot are marked with stones while concentric circle forms diadems are displayed on terracotta sculptures of RAM and HIPPOPOTAMUS) . YOU KNOW NOTHING OF IT BECAUSE YOU NEVER FOR ONCE HAD KNOWLEDGE OF IT. DO YOU KNOW THE PRIESTS AND KINGS OF ANCIENT YORUBA WORE CAP LIKENED TO YARMULKE TO COVER THEIR HEADS? DO YOU KNOW THE WARRIORS TIE LEATHER AMULETS (CONJURED WORDS ) WHEN GOING FOR WAR? HOW ON EARTH CAN IT LOOKED EXACTLY LIKE CANAANITES?
years ago, when they were all stolen or broken. In Ife there is still a ram's head in granite, almost life-size, and ceremonial stools carved in single pieces from solid pieces of quartz. But it is the
terracotta sculpture (and bronzes) which show the art of ancient Ife at its best.

Uncle, you are mainly obsessed with Cannanites & your christian beliefs.

The ram heads, crocodile carvings and other animal arts were not dug at the grave sites of Idita or Idio kings, please stop with these lies. We know it is important that you find your own origins in your religion but you do not have to concuct lies & distort history.

In my compound, all Obatala chiefs are buried close to the temple or our own section of Ife. At least my great grand father, my grandfather and uncles were either buried at Igbo Itapa where the temple/family cimpound is or at Idita. The temple land has never been dug & neither have the burial sites at Ideta been dug.

This is the same for Idio clan.

Where you got your Elephant, antelope & obatala connection & hippopotamus, ram & Oduduwa is for you alone o.

As for the flower patterns made with the arrangement of cowries, found on the headgear of chiefs are meant to distinguish Isoro group (Obatala) & Aworo (Oduduwa's group). In other words, the valley & the hill settlers.

As for the cap, kings & priest and priests have 'osu' in certain places on their heads that could not be seen by the public. In the time past headcovers were made from leaves, then white clothes were tied over the head, then headcovers made from beads and then finalky the small caps like those of Alfas introduced very recently.

You're thinking into these similarities too much that you are failing to study the actual process through which a phenomenon came about. You just want to find the slightest things to slap together.

HAVE YOU KNOWLEDGE OF IFE SCULPTURES? HAVE YOU STUDIED THEM AT ALL? HAVE YOU COMPARE THEM LOCALLY? HAVE YOU COMPARE THEM GLOBALLY? HAVE YOU KNOWLEDGE WHERE THE STOLEN ARTIFACTS ARE ?THEY ARE IN THE COUNTRIES WHERE ARCHAEOLOGISTS HAVE BEEN DOING TO MANY RESEARCH ON THEM..... DO YOU KNOW THE DESCRIPTION OF HOW THE FIRST WORD(EL-A) WAS SPOKEN IS MORE ELABORATE THAN GENESIS 1 vs 3 ? EXPAND YOUR MINDSET AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND MORE

....

MetaPhysical:


I have no conclusions, only questions exist in my mind. If I have any bias it is in favor of oral records having more authenticity than Eurocentric publications about Yoruba.

Actually, Yoruba scholars have written a great deal of work on Yoruba history since 1950s. Only few have been written by whites.

I just recently asked a page or two ago that could it be possible Oduduwa coming to Ife was a return to roots. So I am not concluded in favor of one above the other as origin but I am thoroughly convinced that a connection far more than just a chance exist between Yoruba and spiritual Canaan.

If your only concern is the mythical aspect in Ifa then you should be bothering about Oduduwa and his 5 toed cock creating earth not about a human moving between canaan and Ife.

Aare and Aaron, Araba and Rabbi, Nineveh/Levite and Ile Ife, similarity of form and function of the Mesopotamian Crowns and Yoruba Crowns..and many others that border or are actual participation in the idea of altar, rituals and devotion.

Lol this is funny.

I don't even have the strength to start typing the historical etymologies of those Yoruba words and how they are different from the canaan stuff as well as the crown issue.

We hear Oduduwa is a foreigner. What we are doing is chasing footprints to establish where he is from. I am not a fan of the Israelite origin. My push is for Ancient Hebrew origin, which is far broader and more expansive than Israel.

Oduduwa as a foreigner was a fabrication spread by awos in Ife to keep his actual location in mystery and prevent people from going there.

Ife awos know where he is from there's really no need to go on a brain racking spree that will fall apart in the face of proper scrutiny or say if these awos decide to come out full scale with the secret details that has had you and others bothering your innocent brains over a non existent connection.

IranjeIdita:


Uncle, you are mainly obsessed with Cannanites & your christian beliefs.

The ram heads, crocodile carvings and other animal arts were not dug at the grave sites of Idita or Idio kings, please stop with these lies. We know it is important that you find your own origins in your religion but you do not have to concuct lies & distort history.

In my compound, all Obatala chiefs are buried close to the temple or our own section of Ife. At least my great grand father, my grandfather and uncles were either buried at Igbo Itapa where the temple/family cimpound is or at Idita. The temple land has never been dug & neither have the burial sites at Ideta been dug.

This is the same for Idio clan.

Where you got your Elephant, antelope & obatala connection & hippopotamus, ram & Oduduwa is for you alone o.

As for the flower patterns made with the arrangement of cowries, found on the headgear of chiefs are meant to distinguish Isoro group (Obatala) & Aworo (Oduduwa's group). In other words, the valley & the hill settlers.

As for the cap, kings & priest and priests have 'osu' in certain places on their heads that could not be seen by the public. In the time past headcovers were made from leaves, then white clothes were tied over the head, then headcovers made from beads and then finalky the small caps like those of Alfas introduced very recently.

You're thinking into these similarities too much that you are failing to study the actual process through which a phenomenon came about. You just want to find the slightest things to slap together.




....

Quote me where I mentioned “dug" from the grave site? If not then use a better detailed information and don't be lazy. Beside, do you have any material that mentioned anything close to the study of the burial sites of descendants of Odua and obatala's lineage burial site? If not don't comment on it. Then secondly, obsession has nothing to do with the trade marks of identity. Many of you come here postulating but no any counter claim with evidence but emotional attachment to ILE IFE HERITAGE yet you have little knowledge of the primacy of ILE IFE...You think all of these I mentioned here are framed? you really think it was thought? I am smiling all the way.....joker you are.

Olu317:
You have folks who can shed more light on it. Luusi left as far back as 12th/13th/14th century(I won't specify). Ajamaiye was far from him. Princes go back to ILE IFE for initiation into cults and for identification purposes . Do you know what it mean to be from the first wife's descendants in the ancient Yoruba tradition of kingly home?
?. t is quite funny as you referred to 19th century war that happened just less than 150 years back that involved IBADAN/MODAKEKE/OYO BACKING WAR Vs EKITI PARAPO. . How many princes do you know? Do you even know where oranmiyan's mother's from? You don't even know Odede. Do you think Odede came back because he wanted to rule? You better go and learn very well because you aren't well informed.

Lol

This post had my lips cracking up.

Sir, I said I have folks who can shed more light on matters bothering on Ife language if I come across what I happen to be grappling with.

- you won't specify or you do not know?

- No, princes get initiated before they leave.

- maybe in your hometown it means a lot. Except you are the first son, there's really no biggie to be born of first wife. If you are not the first son then no biggie here.

- 19th century starts from 1801 to 1900.

- Where was Odede's mother from? Tell me or was it Israel?

- If he did not come back to rule, he would not have waged war against Obalufon.

Olu317:
Quote me where I mentioned “dug" from the grave site? If not then use a better detailed information and don't be lazy. Beside, do you have any material that mentioned anything close to the study of the burial sites of descendants of Odua and obatala's lineage burial site? If not don't comment on it. Then secondly, obsession has nothing to do with the trade marks of identity. Many of you come here postulating but no any counter claim with evidence but emotional attachment to ILE IFE HERITAGE yet you have little knowledge of the primacy of ILE IFE...You think all of these I mentioned here are framed? you really think it was thought? I am smiling all the way.....joker you are.

Laziness is framing history out of similarities in different culture as opposed to extensive ethnographic research.

I do not but as someone in the thick of these things, I know for sure nobody either ogberi or initiate could go to dig anything.

You have not provided evidences either just imaginative composition and religious emotional tripe are all we have seen.

I am done here but quickly:
In the frint page, the statements credited to the Hausa people was in reference to Oyo people not Ife people.

Here:

312 Yoruba (or more correctly, Yaraba) is the usual Hausa name for Oyo (as noted e.g. by Clapperton 1829, 4); but cf. also below No.66e for its use in a more general sense.

The post on the front page further separated Oyo from Ife.

Here:

315 and they travelled between Masar [Misr, i.e. Egypt] and Habash [= Ethiopia] until they reached Yoruba. It happened that they left a portion of their people in every country they passed. It is said that the Sudanese who live up on the hills [i.e. the Nigerian Plateau] are all their kindred; so also the people of Yauri are their kindred.
The people of Yoruba resemble those of Nufi in appearance(?).

Apparently, the Hausa folks who said these things regarded Oyo people ONLY as Yoruba who migrated from middle east. They treated Oyo to be different from Ife, a country they were far away from.

I hope the Canaan, Egypt, Israel, Mecca theory will now focus on Oyo as the Hausa king only spoke of Oyo.

IranjeIdita:


Uncle, you are mainly obsessed with Cannanites & your christian beliefs.

The ram heads, crocodile carvings and other animal arts were not dug at the grave sites of Idita or Idio kings, please stop with these lies. We know it is important that you find your own origins in your religion but you do not have to concuct lies & distort history.

In my compound, all Obatala chiefs are buried close to the temple or our own section of Ife. At least my great grand father, my grandfather and uncles were either buried at Igbo Itapa where the temple/family cimpound is or at Idita. The temple land has never been dug & neither have the burial sites at Ideta been dug.

This is the same for Idio clan.

Where you got your Elephant, antelope & obatala connection & hippopotamus, ram & Oduduwa is for you alone o.

As for the flower patterns made with the arrangement of cowries, found on the headgear of chiefs are meant to distinguish Isoro group (Obatala) & Aworo (Oduduwa's group). In other words, the valley & the hill settlers.

As for the cap, kings & priest and priests have 'osu' in certain places on their heads that could not be seen by the public. In the time past headcovers were made from leaves, then white clothes were tied over the head, then headcovers made from beads and then finalky the small caps like those of Alfas introduced very recently.

You're thinking into these similarities too much that you are failing to study the actual process through which a phenomenon came about. You just want to find the slightest things to slap together.




....

quote me where I mentioned all the animals being dug. GO AND READ WHAT PROFESSOR AKIN OGUNDIRAN 'S ACCOUNT ON THE ARCHEOLOGICAL STUDY AT THE SITES VISITED BY THEM. I want you to study more so as to know more. I am sure you know about LAFOGIDO SITE AT ILE IFE. THAT PLACE HAS A GOOD INFORMATION ABOUT OBATALA AND ODUDUA LINEAGE.. AT LEAST YOU CAN ASK PEOPLE OUT IT YOU DON'T KNOW MUCH. I CAN SEE WHY YOU ARE SO ENTANGLED WITH ILE UFE FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE. SO YOU ARE OBATALA'S LINEAGE.

IranjeIdita:



Lol

This post had my lips cracking up.

Sir, I said I have folks who can shed more light on matters bothering on Ife language if I come across what I happen to be grappling with.

- you won't specify or you do not know?

- No, princes get initiated before they leave.

- maybe in your hometown it means a lot. Except you are the first son, there's really no biggie to be born of first wife. If you are not the first son then no biggie here.

- 19th century starts from 1801 to 1900.

- Where was Odede's mother from? Tell me or was it Israel?

- If he did not come back to rule, he would not have waged war against Obalufon.

You simply don't read. WHERE DID I MENTION “INITIATED"BEFORE LEAVING ILE IFE ? READ VERY WELL MY DEAR

IranjeIdita:


Laziness is framing history out of similarities in different culture as opposed to extensive ethnographic research.

I do not but as someone in the thick of these things, I know for sure nobody either ogberi or initiate could go to dig anything.

You have not provided evidences either just imaginative composition and religious emotional tripe are all we have seen.

zYou are not thick at all.... you are not thick and you don't have even have one scholars that has disputed theory of Yoruba of having local origin. And Hausa was not the man but BABA AHMED OF MALI BEFORE THE ACCOUNT OF SULTAN BELLO OF SOKOTO. IF OYO WAS DIFFERENT FROM THE REST GROUP, THEY WOULD HAVE SPOKEN A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE. YOU ARE A VERY FUNNY YORUBA GUY.

Olu317:
quote me where I mentioned all the animals being dug. GO AND READ WHAT PROFESSOR AKIN OGUNDIRAN 'S ACCOUNT ON THE ARCHEOLOGICAL STUDY AT THE SITES VISITED BY THEM. I want you to study more so as to know more. I am sure you know about LAFOGIDO SITE AT ILE IFE. THAT PLACE HAS A GOOD INFORMATION ABOUT OBATALA AND ODUDUA LINEAGE.. AT LEAST YOU CAN ASK PEOPLE OUT IT YOU DON'T KNOW MUCH. I CAN SEE WHY YOU ARE SO ENTANGLED WITH ILE UFE FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE. SO YOU ARE OBATALA'S LINEAGE.

I am too tired to rgo through pages for the word you used in reference to the ram head & stuff.

Which of Dr. Akin Ogundiran's work? Give me the title of the work you want me to read.

Lafogido's burial site is behind Igbo Itapa and close to Idena. I know where it is and I have distant relatives whose family compound is around Lafogido/Idena street.

Obatala & Oduduwa families have nothing to do with Lafogido and his burial site. You may want to be specific here so I know what exactly connects Obatala or Oduduwa to Lafogido as he was not an initiate nor a descendant of either lineage.

IranjeIdita:



- Oduduwa's sons & daughter had already left Ife when he passed. Obatala's people took over the throne to resume their position until Obalufon Alayemore's time who Oranmiyan waged war with and sent packing. Oranmiyan became the Ooni and gave birth to Lajoodogun who in turn gave birth to Lajamisan who birthed Lafogido the father of Osinkola & Ogboru. Oduduwa started a phase that ended with Obatala's people assuming the throne. Oranmiyan started a phase Ife people are still in today.

- I stated 'I thought Owa Luusi' was fathered by Giesi from your post on the other thread till I did further research. Who then fathered Owa Luusi & which of the royal houses did he leave from?

- It is on record that the kings before Ajamaye set up war camps to train young men in the town. This policy produced warriors who were conscripted to fight for the town or serve as mercinaries. Ajamaye was a mercenary in Ife Modakekr war who was called back home to fill a vacant throne. Nonetheless, we appreciate his contribution.

- My oriki? Let me give you that of my family compound and my line within my family compound:

Ideta mogun dudu, omo a pa iwo l'okuku osun

Omo a pa aja sile, pa iwo si ehin kule ode

Aja moma je, me je iwo abi igi lerun

Omo oni igbin merindinlogun ona ilesun

Ikan re ti'ra aye, ikan re ti'ra orun

Omo onigbin jiji ge ji

I'll pause it here.

So what do you need my oriki for?

- Why and how would I not understand my king's oriki when I have a strong understanding of Ife language and my folks here & back home can always provide light on matters I'm grappling with?

which daughter are you referring to? was there any of his daughters known in IFe for founding a dynasty?

In the list of Oonis, the gap between Lafogido and Osinkola(who was succeeded by Ogboru) is large, are you certain Lafogido is their father? This is my first time exposed to this. Also what is your take on Lafogido sharing status with Osinkola and Ogboru as Ruling houses? I believe I don't even have to ask about Giesi
Lafogido people claim he was brother to Lajodogun, thereby being a son of Lajamisan not grandson, why this contradiction from the ruling houses

IranjeIdita:


Here's the theory:

In Yoruba creation story, there was Oduduwa.

This Oduduwa name is then applied to culture heroes who contributed significantly to phenomena that shaped the life of people on a very large scale.

The progenitor of modern monarchy in Ife had his own actual name but was given the name Oduduwa for his contribution meanwhile the man called Obatala in Ife had his actual name but like the mythical Obatala he lost to Oduduwa and assumed that name with people.

Hope this makes sense?

Exactly! Oduduwa later became title many individuals held hence the confusion on Oduduwa of Ife creation and that of later immigrants' leaders from the East.

Why do we have several Ifes even in Igalaland?

Why do princes strived to maintain their bloodline by married only from royal families in those days?

Do you believe or have discovered Yoruba's origin to be one?

Why is it that the oldest discovered bones were found in Iwo Eleru, near Akure rather than Ife?

Why did Yoruba neighbours failed to have the same refined art or civilization like Ife?...

Do you believe in Atlantis creation of Ife and their connection with ancient Egypt and Greek?

Can you list the origins of people that came to Ife and Yorubaland?...

IranjeIdita:



Lol

This post had my lips cracking up.

Sir, I said I have folks who can shed more light on matters bothering on Ife language if I come across what I happen to be grappling with.

- you won't specify or you do not know?

- No, princes get initiated before they leave.

- maybe in your hometown it means a lot. Except you are the first son, there's really no biggie to be born of first wife. If you are not the first son then no biggie here.

- 19th century starts from 1801 to 1900.

- Where was Odede's mother from? Tell me or was it Israel?

- If he did not come back to rule, he would not have waged war against Obalufon.

There is this issue of Odede being of two complexions, due to the controversy of his paternity

OlaoChi:
There is this issue of Odede being of two complexions, due to the controversy of his paternity

That is a story of deities in Ifa, a myth.

It is about Ogun & Oduduwa.

There's another one about Orunmila & Oduduwa,

Except he suffered from vitiligo

Olu317:
You simply don't read. WHERE DID I MENTION “INITIATED"BEFORE LEAVING ILE IFE ? READ VERY WELL MY DEAR

You said they come back to ife to be initiated into stuff or for identification.

And I corrected you that modt initiate before leaving and they ususlly never return st least not for initiation.

Olu317:
zYou are not thick at all.... you are not thick and you don't have even have one scholars that has disputed theory of Yoruba of having local origin. And Hausa was not the man but BABA AHMED OF MALI BEFORE THE ACCOUNT OF SULTAN BELLO OF SOKOTO. IF OYO WAS DIFFERENT FROM THE REST GROUP, THEY WOULD HAVE SPOKEN A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE. YOU ARE A VERY FUNNY YORUBA GUY.

Only Oyo had contact with Hausa & Malians.

Oyo was the only group referred to as Yoruba.

Go and read properly & leave Jewish history first.

Yoruba as an encompassing term did not begin until colonial period.

OlaoChi:
which daughter are you referring to? was there any of his daughters known in IFe for founding a dynasty?

In the list of Oonis, the gap between Lafogido and Osinkola(who was succeeded by Ogboru) is large, are you certain Lafogido is their father? This is my first time exposed to this. Also what is your take on Lafogido sharing status with Osinkola and Ogboru as Ruling houses? I believe I don't even have to ask about Giesi
Lafogido people claim he was brother to Lajodogun, thereby being a son of Lajamisan not grandson, why this contradiction from the ruling houses

Olowu's mother was Oduduwa's first daughter. She left with her son to found Owu.

Lajemison was the father of Olajueyiodiogun (Lajoodogun) who gave birth to Lafogido.

Other sons of Lajoodogun filled the throne until Lafogido.

Osinkola, Ogboru were both sons of Lafogido.

Ife ruling houses broke out of Lafogido and it should just be Lafogido alone but well everyone wanted to stand alone.

IranjeIdita:


I am too tired to rgo through pages for the word you used in reference to the ram head & stuff.

Which of Dr. Akin Ogundiran's work? Give me the title of the work you want me to read.

Lafogido's burial site is behind Igbo Itapa and close to Idena. I know where it is and I have distant relatives whose family compound is around Lafogido/Idena street.

Obatala & Oduduwa families have nothing to do with Lafogido and his burial site. You may want to be specific here so I know what exactly connects Obatala or Oduduwa to Lafogido as he was not an initiate nor a descendant of either lineage.

Morning, I had thought you are an ABSOLUTE knowledge on this ILE IFE ARTS. Why do you now need me to give an information you are supposedly to have in your care. I had mentioned your status as a PHD student in which you claimed. I am tempted to reaffirm my stance as it regard your account on this subject matter that you have little knowledge of the depth of ILE IFE. I have given you a name in relationship to the perceived issue. And the professor,whom I had expected you to be familiar with his books is one of the most OUTSTANDING YORUBA ARCHAEOLOGIST. So, dear, read his books and you will be amazed at the things you have no knowledge on. Europeans who seeks to know more on these things went far to to acquire knowledge on this subject matter of Yoruba history and Art. Even became initiated in the YORUBA SECRET ANCIENT ASSOCIATIONS. One out of the few ones was LATE Professor LEO FRONBENIOUS. Some IFE ART of the 12th-13th century etc are in European museum along side Persians Greek Arts. Are you more knowledgeable than these archeologists? All that is expected of you is to complement what has been found already as a PhD student. Least I forget, what area of your discipline do embark on your PhD? It will Dawn on you when the archaeologist locate the site of shrine at Elephanté and Yebu.

IranjeIdita:


Only Oyo had contact with Hausa & Malians.

Oyo was the only group referred to as Yoruba.

Go and read properly & leave Jewish history first.

Yoruba as an encompassing term did not begin until colonial period.

what are you even inferring? Only Oyo had what? If you know Oyo so well, then define who Oyo people were. Before I knock off your view .Thank you

IranjeIdita:


You said they come back to ife to be initiated into stuff or for identification.

And I corrected you that modt initiate before leaving and they ususlly never return st least not for initiation.

You are a LIAR. YOU DON'T HAVE KNOWLEDGE ON THE ASSOCIATION AT ILE IFE. THERE ARE CONSECRATION . THE LUSI DESCENDANTS WERE ALWAYS GOING BACK TO ILE IFE. BEFORE THEY ABOLISHED TRIBAL MARK, WE HAD BEEN WITHOUT TRIBAL MARKS. DO YOU KNOW WHY? JUST LET STOP THERE. I DON'T WANT TO GO DEEPER ON MY HERITAGE. Emi Omo a mu akuko fin fin( fun fun) borè.......
....OMO OKE RI LÈ. FORGET IT . .

IranjeIdita:


You said they come back to ife to be initiated into stuff or for identification.

And I corrected you that modt initiate before leaving and they ususlly never return st least not for initiation.

You are a LIAR. YOU DON'T HAVE KNOWLEDGE ON THE ASSOCIATION AT ILE IFE. THERE ARE CONSECRATION AND NEED TO BE INITIATED, ESPECIALLY THE MALE CHILDREN OF THE FIRST WIFE . THE LUSI DESCENDANTS WERE ALWAYS GOING BACK TO ILE IFE TO FRATERNISE. WHO WERE THE GROUP THAT DIDN'T WORE TRIBAL MARKS BEFORE THEY ABOLISHED IT DURING OBALUFON SECOND REIGN? , DO YOU KNOW WHY? JUST LET STOP THERE. I DON'T WANT TO GO DEEPER ON MY HERITAGE. Emi Omo a mu akuko fin fin( fun fun) borè.......
....OMO OKE RI LÈ. FORGET IT .... I KNOW MY HERITAGE. IT IS HEREDITARY. .

Olu317:
You are a LIAR. YOU DON'T HAVE KNOWLEDGE ON THE ASSOCIATION AT ILE IFE. THERE ARE CONSECRATION AND NEED TO BE INITIATED, ESPECIALLY THE MALE CHILDREN OF THE FIRST WIFE . THE LUSI DESCENDANTS WERE ALWAYS GOING BACK TO ILE IFE TO FRATERNISE. WHO WERE THE GROUP THAT DIDN'T WORE TRIBAL MARKS BEFORE THEY ABOLISHED IT DURING OBALUFON SECOND REIGN? , DO YOU KNOW WHY? JUST LET STOP THERE. I DON'T WANT TO GO DEEPER ON MY HERITAGE. Emi Omo a mu akuko fin fin( fun fun) borè.......
....OMO OKE RI LÈ. FORGET IT .... I KNOW MY HERITAGE. IT IS HEREDITARY. .

I asked in my previous post what compound in Ife Owa Luusi left from but you evaded it.

I wanted to let you slide but since you said Owa Luusi were always coming to Ife then please state what compound they come to. I'll personally go to Ife to this compound to find out.

Before tribal marks were abolished?

You should stick to the history of Netanyahu's peoples. You are very weak with Yoruba history. For your information, tribal marks were banned in Ife from inception as it was only for slaves and non-Ife.

Ife people didn't wear tribal marks until migrants from other Yoruba towns began to come in to settle and the need to differentiate.

Also, the royal compounds are scattered and in order to know who is who, styles of tribal marks were introduced.

Tribal were not abolished. In fact, they were introduced due to the two factors above.

Olu317:
what are you even inferring? Only Oyo had what? If you know Oyo so well, then define who Oyo people were. Before I knock off your view .Thank you

Your ignorance of the fact that only Oyo was regarded as Yoruba by the Hausa shows you are poorly read in Yoruba history.

Conduct a personal research, I am not going to go back and forth over a known fact and I am not going to keep teaching you things.

Oh, I see you are fighting this fact because it theeatens the basis of your false Canaan theory .

Olu317:
Morning, I had thought you are an ABSOLUTE knowledge on this ILE IFE ARTS. Why do you now need me to give an information you are supposedly to have in your care. I had mentioned your status as a PHD student in which you claimed. I am tempted to reaffirm my stance as it regard your account on this subject matter that you have little knowledge of the depth of ILE IFE. I have given you a name in relationship to the perceived issue. And the professor,whom I had expected you to be familiar with his books is one of the most OUTSTANDING YORUBA ARCHAEOLOGIST. So, dear, read his books and you will be amazed at the things you have no knowledge on. Europeans who seeks to know more on these things went far to to acquire knowledge on this subject matter of Yoruba history and Art. Even became initiated in the YORUBA SECRET ANCIENT ASSOCIATIONS. One out of the few ones was LATE Professor LEO FRONBENIOUS. Some IFE ART of the 12th-13th century etc are in European museum along side Persians Greek Arts. Are you more knowledgeable than these archeologists? All that is expected of you is to complement what has been found already as a PhD student. Least I forget, what area of your discipline do embark on your PhD? It will Dawn on you when the archaeologist locate the site of shrine at Elephanté and Yebu.

You are not making any sense but typing balderdash.

I ask again, which of Akin Ogundiran's work? Name dropping people does nothing to me. Cite which of his work talks about Obatala and Oduduwa at Lafogido's burial site, I am waiting.

Secret Ancient association like what?

Quit name dropping, I have Frobenius's Voice of Africa work, volume 1 & 2 which I have read page to page.

Eithee you are not very bright or you have a hard time comprehending what you are supposedly reading and the theory/philosophy guiding the author's research patterns.

Frobenius, Bascom, Willet and a number of European researchers have worked on Ife yes. Leave these works and go to read books of culture historians or Ife historians - Eluyemi, Fashogbon & Fabunmi. All of their works in entirety.

Olu317 the Jew.