AuthenticKing:
... until you guys stop forcing your beliefs on us on the streets, in our houses, on motor parks, on every public place, on the internet, etc. Until you guys stop infiltrating everywhere in our nation with your Jesus (and Mohammed). Until people can direct their efforts on creating better healthcare services, on better schools, etc instead of churches and mosques. Until prophets stop confusing Africans. Until you stop indoctrinating children with your religious nonsense...

I see the problem, but I think that there might be more useful and beneficial ways of responding to it than endless, aimless, debating in online forums. I see things that anyone can do who wants to, to help stop all that from happening, and to reduce and counteract the damage from it, and this doesn't look to me like one of them.

Judas1X:

... calling the OFF button on a TV remote, a TV channel.

That's a new one on me. I like it!

ReubenSandwich:


I see the problem, but I think that there might be more useful and beneficial ways of responding to it than endless, aimless, debating in online forums. I see things that anyone can do who wants to, to help stop all that from happening, and to reduce and counteract the damage from it, and this doesn't look to me like one of them.

I wouldn't go as far as to call forums like this aimless. You may not know it, but people go through these through these threads, and read through the debates.

I once used to do so, long before I ever created a nairaland account. The discussions I saw here got me thinking and questioning the things I was raised to believe. It wasn't the sole factor in my deconversion, but it no doubt played a huge role.

Wilgrea7:


I wouldn't go as far as to call forums like this aimless. You may not know it, but people go through these through these threads, and read through the debates.

I once used to do so, long before I ever created a nairaland account. The discussions I saw here got me thinking and questioning the things I was raised to believe. It wasn't the sole factor in my deconversion, but it no doubt played a huge role.

About the topic of the thread, I agree with you that belief in a god, no matter if it's a Christian God or any other, does not solve the alleged problem of people not having any reason to be moral if they don't believe in it.

Wilgrea7:

I wouldn't go as far as to call forums like this aimless. You may not know it, but people go through these through these threads, and read through the debates.

I once used to do so, long before I ever created a nairaland account. The discussions I saw here got me thinking and questioning the things I was raised to believe. It wasn't the sole factor in my deconversion, but it no doubt played a huge role.

Do you have some reasons for thinking that deconverting people will help reduce the amount of cruelty, violence and oppression in the world, help reduce the damage from them, and/or help improve the world in any other way? Have you seen any empirical validation for that?

ReubenSandwich:


Do you have some reasons for thinking that deconverting people will help reduce the amount of cruelty, violence and oppression in the world, help reduce the damage from them, and/or help improve the world in any other way? Have you seen any empirical validation for that?

God is the invincible leash around the neck of the animal named Man. Unfortunately, that leash can be used to lead them to the same cruelty, violence, and oppression it aims to control.
Nevertheless, I for one prefer the leash on their necks.

ReubenSandwich:

About the topic of the thread, I agree with you that belief in a god, no matter if it's a Christian God or any other, does not solve the alleged problem of people not having any reason to be moral if they don't believe in it.

The highlighted is a misconception!

The only way to solve morality problem is the belief (trust) in GOD {John 17:3} but because Satan has used FALSEHOOD to blindfold billions {Matthew 13:25} unintelligent persons thinks the trust in God can't solve our problem! 2Corinthians 4:4

So let's annalise it in a practical sense! Isaiah 1:18

ReubenSandwich:


Do you have some reasons for thinking that deconverting people will help reduce the amount of cruelty, violence and oppression in the world, help reduce the damage from them, and/or help improve the world in any other way? Have you seen any empirical validation for that?

This is going to be a bit complex to explain, but I'll try my best.

The goal isn't to de-convert people. I'm not some missionary of atheism trying to get people to join my bandwagon. Atheism itself isn't a religion. But that's besides the point.

The goal is to get people to think, should I say differently, and more intuitively and logically. I do strongly believe that at the very least, being less religious would reduce the problems in the world.

Sure, some humans always find ways to be cruel and violent, but the issue becomes more severe when this violence is believed to have been sanctioned by a God. By adding the tag of a God, you can make even the nicest of people, perform the most abhorrent of acts.

We have sects of religions where people believe it is perfectly Ok to blow themselves up in the name of "punishing infidels". We have religions that suggest people should be killed simply for leaving. We have religions that say it is okay to own a slave, and beat it, just as long as the slave doesn't die. That's just one part of the cake.

The main issue I have with religion, most especially the fundamentalist side, is that it gives people an excuse to stop thinking. To stop doing.

Some people today believe that a magical bearded jew is going to come down from the sky soon, and "save us". And because of that, they make no effort to try to fix the world we live in today. They leave it up to "God"

Some people take no responsibility for their own actions. Whatever happens, they claim "God did it for them". They have way more children than they can afford to feed, and they claim "God sent them to me". They put themselves in dangerous situations, and claim "God has a plan".

They are instructed to "leave it to God", and they do just that. Rather than taking control of their lives, they expect an imaginary deity to solve their problems for them.

Imagine someone having a disease. And rather than trying to figure out what it is, what caused it, and how to cure it, they instead think it's a punishment from God and pray to him instead.

The former thinking leads to innovation and medical improvements. The latter leads to absolutely nothing.

There are many more things I'd have loved to add, but I'll stop here for now.

In summary, religion, especially the fundamentalist kind, causes way more problems the world would be honestly be better off without

ReubenSandwich:


About the topic of the thread, I agree with you that belief in a god, no matter if it's a Christian God or any other, does not solve the alleged problem of people not having any reason to be moral if they don't believe in it.

You're a little close, but not exactly. That's not the topic of this thread.

The topic of the thread says that even if we agree that a God exists, it still does not solve the "moral dilemna"

I used those words because theists who often don't know any better say things like "If atheists don't believe in God, then how do they know what is right and wrong" or something along those lines.

It's a statement I've heard countless times, and even popular Christian apologists like Frank Turek parrot such narratives as the silver bullet against atheism.

But when you look at it closely, even if you accept that A God exists, you still run into moral problems. 2 of which I've discussed earlier in the thread.

Dtruthspeaker:


No one proves what is obvious.

Remember my conversation with tctrills, I went through the hassle to look for evidence to prove my claim, I found something different from my initial assertion and I wasn't afraid to admit it, though my research still proved my initial point but it wasn't so exact with the way I was putting it. It shows I'm doing my best to come closer to reality on this thread.

But you, ever since you began having conversations on nairaland, you have fixated your opinions on certain unchangeable dogmas without sufficient evidence. While I do not care so much about your belief in the God of the Bible, I care so much about you thinking he created me or for the sake of this conversation,he created morality. I care that because you think I don't believe in your God or your Bible, that I'm evil and deserve to die.
Provide the evidence of what you claimed sir, stop making vague statements!

Dtruthspeaker:

Similar, does not mean the same!

Lol, it doesn't matter. Whether it was put forth authoritatively or laid down by an authority, the important thing is that dogmas are authoritative assertions that are seen as superior by those who abide by them.

Dtruthspeaker:

One the threads are here and anyone can go through the suffer to bring them up. But I would never do that.

If you can't provide the evidence for your claim, then it's hereby dismissed as false and without basis.

ReubenSandwich:


I see the problem, but I think that there might be more useful and beneficial ways of responding to it than endless, aimless, debating in online forums. I see things that anyone can do who wants to, to help stop all that from happening, and to reduce and counteract the damage from it, and this doesn't look to me like one of them.

1. What are the useful ways if I may ask?

2. Just as Wilgrea7 wrote, the debates here ain't aimless, people go through them! Infact there are many people here who used to be theists (some arguing against atheists) but have now become atheists/non-believers (reading JudasIX's response, I learnt Wilgrea7 himself is one of them ), it's not a proof that non-belief is the right path but it's a proof that the conversations here are actually yielding fruits.

Who knows? Nairaland might actually be the bedrock to promote reason, critical thinking, education, rationality, humanism and real empathy in this damn country because this is the best platform where conversations like these exist.

Wilgrea7:


This is going to be a bit complex to explain, but I'll try my best.

The goal isn't to de-convert people. I'm not some missionary of atheism trying to get people to join my bandwagon. Atheism itself isn't a religion. But that's besides the point.

The goal is to get people to think, should I say differently, and more intuitively and logically. I do strongly believe that at the very least, being less religious would reduce the problems in the world.

Sure, some humans always find ways to be cruel and violent, but the issue becomes more severe when this violence is believed to have been sanctioned by a God. By adding the tag of a God, you can make even the nicest of people, perform the most abhorrent of acts.

We have sects of religions where people believe it is perfectly Ok to blow themselves up in the name of "punishing infidels". We have religions that suggest people should be killed simply for leaving. We have religions that say it is okay to own a slave, and beat it, just as long as the slave doesn't die. That's just one part of the cake.

The main issue I have with religion, most especially the fundamentalist side, is that it gives people an excuse to stop thinking. To stop doing.

Some people today believe that a magical bearded jew is going to come down from the sky soon, and "save us". And because of that, they make no effort to try to fix the world we live in today. They leave it up to "God"

Some people take no responsibility for their own actions. Whatever happens, they claim "God did it for them". They have way more children than they can afford to feed, and they claim "God sent them to me". They put themselves in dangerous situations, and claim "God has a plan".

They are instructed to "leave it to God", and they do just that. Rather than taking control of their lives, they expect an imaginary deity to solve their problems for them.

Imagine someone having a disease. And rather than trying to figure out what it is, what caused it, and how to cure it, they instead think it's a punishment from God and pray to him instead.

The former thinking leads to innovation and medical improvements. The latter leads to absolutely nothing.

There are many more things I'd have loved to add, but I'll stop here for now.

In summary, religion, especially the fundamentalist kind, causes way more problems the world would be honestly be better off without

On point. I agree with everything you've written but the bolded is my favorite.

KnownUnknown:


God is the invincible leash around the neck of the animal named Man. Unfortunately, that leash can be used to lead them to the same cruelty, violence, and oppression it aims to control.
Nevertheless, I for one prefer the leash on their necks.

Thanks for responding to my post.

I’ll need to go back and read some of your posts again, to see what you’re promoting and what I think about it.

MaxInDHouse:

The highlighted is a misconception!

The only way to solve morality problem is the belief (trust) in GOD {John 17:3} but because Satan has used FALSEHOOD to blindfold billions {Matthew 13:25} unintelligent persons thinks the trust in God can't solve our problem! 2Corinthians 4:4

So let's annalise it in a practical sense! Isaiah 1:18

Thank you. I’m not arguing against trust in the messengers of the God of Abraham.

ReubenSandwich:


Thanks for responding to my post.

I’ll need to go back and read some of your posts again, to see what you’re promoting and what I think about it.

I’m not promoting anything.

AuthenticKing:

1. What are the useful ways if I may ask?

2. Just as Wilgrea7 wrote, the debates here ain't aimless, people go through them! Infact there are many people here who used to be theists (some arguing against atheists) but have now become atheists/non-believers (reading JudasIX's response, I learnt Wilgrea7 himself is one of them ), it's not a proof that non-belief is the right path but it's a proof that the conversations here are actually yielding fruits.

Who knows? Nairaland might actually be the bedrock to promote reason, critical thinking, education, rationality, humanism and real empathy in this damn country because this is the best platform where conversations like these exist.

Thank you.

Some ways that I see of responding to the problems:
- Helping with the moral and spiritual training of children. To be effective, that requires continual efforts to improve our own attitudes and behavior and the way we live our lives, with warm feelings and friendly intentions towards all people everywhere and all of nature.
- Learning to be a better friend to more people, a safe, easy, fun and helpful person to talk to for all kins of people in all kinds of circumstances.
- Learning to work with neighbors to help make the community life in our neighborhood or village healthier, happier and friendlier for every person in it.

When I said “aimless,” I didn’t mean fruitless.

Where and how do you see people promoting reason, critical thinking, education, rationality, humanism and real empathy in these forums, or in any other public discussions, online or offline? I mean, in a way that actually helps to improve how anyone practices those? I’m not denying that it happens. I think that have seen it happening here and there. I’m just curious about where and how you see it happening.

(later)

Nairaland might actually be the bedrock to promote reason, critical thinking, education, rationality, humanism and real empathy in this damn country because this is the best platform where conversations like these exist.

If you are honestly and sincerely trying promote reason, critical thinking, rationality, humanism and real empathy in Nigeria, I would like to have some conversations with you about that, here or in some other thread. For example, I would be interested in your ideas about what anyone who wants to can do in their everyday lives to promote reason, critical thinking, education, rationality, humanism and real empathy.

(later) I do think that some of your behavior in these forums might be setting a good example for others.

Wilgrea7:

… even if you accept that A God exists, you still run into moral problems …

I agree.

Wilgrea7:

The goal is to get people to think, should I say differently, and more intuitively and logically.

I agree with helping people learn to to think more intuitively and logically. Do you have some reasons to think that debating with people who think they believe in some God, about their beliefs, is a way of doing that? Have you seen any empirical validation for that? I’m not sure that there isn’t any. I just haven’t seen any, myself.

Sure, some humans always find ways to be cruel and violent, but the issue becomes more severe when this violence is believed to have been sanctioned by a God. By adding the tag of a God, you can make even the nicest of people, perform the most abhorrent of acts.

We have sects of religions where people believe it is perfectly Ok to blow themselves up in the name of "punishing infidels". We have religions that suggest people should be killed simply for leaving. We have religions that say it is okay to own a slave, and beat it, just as long as the slave doesn't die. That's just one part of the cake.

The main issue I have with religion, most especially the fundamentalist side, is that it gives people an excuse to stop thinking. To stop doing.

Some people today believe that a magical bearded jew is going to come down from the sky soon, and "save us". And because of that, they make no effort to try to fix the world we live in today. They leave it up to "God"

Some people take no responsibility for their own actions. Whatever happens, they claim "God did it for them". They have way more children than they can afford to feed, and they claim "God sent them to me". They put themselves in dangerous situations, and claim "God has a plan".

They are instructed to "leave it to God", and they do just that. Rather than taking control of their lives, they expect an imaginary deity to solve their problems for them.

Imagine someone having a disease. And rather than trying to figure out what it is, what caused it, and how to cure it, they instead think it's a punishment from God and pray to him instead.

The former thinking leads to innovation and medical improvements. The latter leads to absolutely nothing.

There are many more things I'd have loved to add, but I'll stop here for now.

In summary, religion, especially the fundamentalist kind, causes way more problems the world would be honestly be better off without

If I’m understanding correctly, you’re thinking that when people stop thinking that they believe in a God, they will stop making excuses for cruelty, violence and oppression, or it will be harder for them to do it, or the cruelty, violence and oppression that they’re willing to ignore, deny or excuse won’t be as much or as bad, or something along those lines. Am I understanding you correctly? Have you seen any empirical validation for that? I haven’t.

(later) I don't think that arguing and debating with people who think they believe in a God, about their beliefs, does anything to help solve any social problems or to help human progress, but I'm curious to see if anyone has any actual reasons for thinking that it does. One way to test it would be to observe what happens in communities and organizations that have atheist majorities, or that are governed or managed by atheists, and compare that to what happens in other communities and organizations. Have you ever done that?

(later) There was a time for many months when I spent a lot of time in Internet discussions thinking that it could be a way of helping to solve some social problems. Now I don't think that it can do anything to help solve those problems that can't be done much better some other ways, with less harm.

I do think that your good behavior in these forums is setting a good example for others.

AuthenticKing:
...But you, ever since you began having conversations on nairaland, you have fixated your opinions on certain unchangeable dogmas without sufficient evidence. While I do not care so much about your belief in the God of the Bible, I care so much about you thinking he created me or for the sake of this conversation,he created morality. I care that because you think I don't believe in your God or your Bible, that I'm evil and deserve to die.
Provide the evidence of what you claimed sir, stop making vague statements!

Your problem with me is that you do not know how a matter is proven nor the evidence or the Laws admitting or rejecting evidence.

All you know is ordinary market place argument where you people say anything and argue back and forth because you think it is reasonable/logical whereas they are bad arguments.

And we have no judge here who is versed in The Laws of Argument to cut bad arguments from the right ones, so I have a problem with you people.

So therefore, I can only go as far, for, you atheists always make the mistake of thinking that you are both the litigant and the judge, hence your very funny statement of saying "If you can't provide the evidence for your claim, then it's hereby dismissed as false and without basis".

You can not be a judge in your own case- "nemo judex in causa sua"

However, this is the place of anything goes, whether valid or invalid.

...

ReubenSandwich:


Thank you.

Some ways that I see of responding to the problems:
- Helping with the moral and spiritual training of children. To be effective, that requires continual efforts to improve our own attitudes and behavior and the way we live our lives, with warm feelings and friendly intentions towards all people everywhere and all of nature.
- Learning to be a better friend to more people, a safe, easy, fun and helpful person to talk to for all kins of people in all kinds of circumstances.
- Learning to work with neighbors to help make the community life in our neighborhood or village healthier, happier and friendlier for every person in it.

All these ways you proposed are very good ways to do this but I'm sorry, it can't just happen that way. If that were to be so, Nigeria would have been a better place.

Firstly, think about this, these are things we constantly hear from religious leaders/motivational speakers/visionaries, etc yet what do we see? The world or for the sake of the point I want to make, Africa keeps being a messy place.
Secondly, I strongly believe that these your points can only work only when humans decide on their own, and how do humans decide on their own when many of us lack awareness to do so? When many of us keep waiting for a god to do that for us? When many of us believe that forces of darkness are keeping us back from making ourselves better? How do we achieve that when many listen to people say these things you just wrote up there but pay no heed to them?

Ever since, I dropped religion, I've become more self-aware and observant of human nature and I make efforts on my own to make myself better and also spread this to others, but for us to achieve that on a large scale, we have to first of all, challenge people's old ways of thinking and since I can't, for some reasons yet, do that openly, I have to lend my voice on a platform like this to do that.

ReubenSandwich:


When I said “aimless,” I didn’t mean fruitless.

Where and how do you see people promoting reason, critical thinking, education, rationality, humanism and real empathy in these forums, or in any other public discussions, online or offline? I mean, in a way that actually helps to improve how anyone practices those? I’m not denying that it happens. I think that have seen it happening here and there. I’m just curious about where and how you see it happening.

Ok look, ignore the atheists who are quite abusive in their replies to theists and check out atheists who try their best to raise challenging topics to question religious people on what they believe in, check out atheists and other freethinkers who respectfully engage theists on this platform.

I don't know your ideal of promoting the stuffs I listed but you can use this thread as an example and think of the salient points Wilgrea7 made on the topic of this thread, think of some replies non-believers made, think of the conversations we had with some Christians on this thread, etc.
Threads like this helped fuel my objections about religion. Yes there are threads that are devoid of reasoning but why not look at those that promote so much reasoning and knowledge, that help people think?

ReubenSandwich:

If you are honestly and sincerely trying promote reason, critical thinking, rationality, humanism and real empathy in Nigeria, I would like to have some conversations with you about that, here or in some other thread. For example, I would be interested in your ideas about what anyone who wants to can do in their everyday lives to promote reason, critical thinking, education, rationality, humanism and real empathy.

Using Nigeria as a case study, people must drop religious fanaticism and dogmatism in order to begin to see things clearly. Superstitious beliefs must be challenged to help people see through these beliefs. Wilgrea7 has already elaborated on this in his first reply to you, the one you just responded to, you can go back and read them again to understand why I'm emphasizing on religion and superstitious beliefs.

Of course, religion is not the only thing that blocks people from thinking clearly but as long as Africa is concerned, it's our biggest problem.

ReubenSandwich:

(later) I do think that some of your behavior in these forums might be setting a good example for others.

How? I don't understand this comment.

Dtruthspeaker:


Your problem with me is that you do not know how a matter is proven nor the evidence or the Laws admitting or rejecting evidence.

All you know is ordinary market place argument where you people say anything and argue back and forth because you think it is reasonable/logical whereas they are bad arguments.

And we have no judge here who is versed in The Laws of Argument to cut bad arguments from the right ones, so I have a problem with you people.

So therefore, I can only go as far, for, you atheists always make the mistake of thinking that you are both the litigant and the judge, hence your very funny statement of saying "If you can't provide the evidence for your claim, then it's hereby dismissed as false and without basis".

You can not be a judge in your own case- "nemo judex in causa sua"

However, this is the place of anything goes, whether valid or invalid.

Lol, like the way you open many threads insulting atheists who have done no harm to you just because they don't believe what you believe.

Oga, you're doing a disservice to your God, this thread has 2k+ views and still counting, why not just show the 'verifiable evidence' you have for your God or at least for a god so we can stop all these arguments? Why not take the hassle to post it here instead of cursing people for not seeing 'the obvious'? Paste it here so your God will even be happier that his beloved son who goes through the pain of cursing people who don't believe in him has even taken a step further by helping to provide the evidence for his existence.
Paste the evidence for the two claims you made and stop blabbing. Mtchew.

ReubenSandwich:

I would be interested in your ideas about what anyone who wants to can do in their everyday lives to promote reason, critical thinking, education, rationality, humanism and real empathy.

AuthenticKing:

Using Nigeria as a case study, people must drop religious fanaticism and dogmatism in order to begin to see things clearly. Superstitious beliefs must be challenged to help people see through these beliefs.

Thank you. Do you have any other ideas about what anyone who wants to can do in their everyday life to promote reason, critical thinking, education, rationality, humanism and real empathy?

ReubenSandwich:

I do think that some of your behavior in these forums might be setting a good example for others.

AuthenticKing:

How? I don't understand this comment.

What you said above, engaging people respectfully. That’s setting a good example for others, and I see that as a way of helping to improve society. That’s one reason that I don’t think these discussions are entirely fruitless.

Wilgrea7:

I do strongly believe that at the very least, being less religious would reduce the problems in the world.

In summary, religion, especially the fundamentalist kind, causes way more problems the world would be honestly be better off without

AuthenticKing:

I strongly believe that these your points can only work only when humans decide on their own, and how do humans decide on their own when many of us lack awareness to do so? When many of us keep waiting for a god to do that for us? When many of us believe that forces of darkness are keeping us back from making ourselves better? How do we achieve that when many listen to people say these things you just wrote up there but pay no heed to them?

Ever since, I dropped religion, I've become more self-aware and observant of human nature and I make efforts on my own to make myself better and also spread this to others, but for us to achieve that on a large scale, we have to first of all, challenge people's old ways of thinking and since I can't, for some reasons yet, do that openly, I have to lend my voice on a platform like this to do that.

Using Nigeria as a case study, people must drop religious fanaticism and dogmatism in order to begin to see things clearly. Superstitious beliefs must be challenged to help people see through these beliefs.

LIke I said, I'm curious about your reasons for thinking that arguing and debating with people about their beliefs in an Internet forum will help solve some social problems. As I'm understanding it, your reasoning is something like this:
- One reason for the problems is some religious beliefs.
- Therefore, people turning away from those beliefs will help solve those problems.
- Thereore, arguing and debating with people about those beliefs, in an online forum, will help solve those problems.

Am I understanding that correctly?

Do you have any other reasons for thinking that arguing and debating with people about their beliefs in an Internet forum will help solve some social problems?

I see some possible agreements and common interests between us, which I'm hoping to discuss, but for now I'm curious to see if I'm understanding your reasons for thinking that debating with people about their beliefs, in an Internet forum, is a way of helping to solve some social problems. I think that it can be, but not for that reason.

(later) Your story get k-leg!

AuthenticKing:

Lol, like the way you open many threads insulting atheists who have done no harm to you just because they don't believe what you believe.

The atheist chant when counter-attacked!

AuthenticKing:

Oga, you're doing a disservice to your God, this thread has 2k+ views and still counting, why not just show the 'verifiable evidence' you have for your God or at least for a god so we can stop all these arguments? Why not take the hassle to post it here instead of cursing people for not seeing 'the obvious'? Paste it here so your God will even be happier that his beloved son who goes through the pain of cursing people who don't believe in him has even taken a step further by helping to provide the evidence for his existence.
Paste the evidence for the two claims you made and stop blabbing. Mtchew.

You said all these about 20 posts back and you saw and went off point and started changing posts.

So my work was already done and the case closed.

ReubenSandwich:


I agree with helping people learn to to think more intuitively and logically. Do you have some reasons to think that debating with people who think they believe in some God, about their beliefs, is a way of doing that? Have you seen any empirical validation for that? I’m not sure that there isn’t any. I just haven’t seen any, myself.

Like I've said before, the idea isn't just "debating people".. It's trying to get people to think differently. And I don't just mean the people who directly reply me. I'm also referring to the silent readers who, if they are objective enough, can analyze multiple viewpoints and potentially see things from a different angle.

I know, because I was one of those silent viewers here on nairaland, long before i created an account to join the debate.

If I’m understanding correctly, you’re thinking that when people stop thinking that they believe in a God, they will stop making excuses for cruelty, violence and oppression, or it will be harder for them to do it, or the cruelty, violence and oppression that they’re willing to ignore, deny or excuse won’t be as much or as bad, or something along those lines. Am I understanding you correctly? Have you seen any empirical validation for that? I haven’t.

It's not as simple as "making excuses". Belief in a sort of higher power in and of itself is not the issue. It's when said higher power begins to ask you to do certain bad things, that problems arise. I gave the example of how religions can make good people do bad things.

We have people who hate a certain group of people, for no other reason than their God dislikes these people. Arabs and Jews are an example. Although not all of them, but a good portion of them. That's just one example.

Bad people will pretty much always exist as far as I can tell. But without the God persuasion, you will have less people doing bad things because "God said so".

I noticed you've been asking for some sort of empirical evidence. I once read a study about domestic violence in middle eastern countries.

I'll try to get the links to share here. So it's no surprise that domestic violence against women is higher in these countries compared to places like america and other circular nations.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12920614/
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SG.VAW.REFU.ZS

People who beat their spouses and partners in these countries often cite some verses in their book, in which their "God" apparently advises them to discipline their wives if they "fall out of line". What's worse, is that some of these women think it's okay, simply because this God said so.

It isn't limited to domestic violence. It spans among other aspects as well.

You don't see people in secular nations blowing themselves up as much as people in radical islamic nations.

These are just some examples. I could go on and on...but i noticed this text is getting really long. Hopefully you get my point

Wilgrea7:

Like I've said before, the idea isn't just "debating people".. It's trying to get people to think differently. And I don't just mean the people who directly reply me. I'm also referring to the silent readers …

Belief in a sort of higher power in and of itself is not the issue. It's when said higher power begins to ask you to do certain bad things, that problems arise. I gave the example of how religions can make good people do bad things …

I noticed you've been asking for some sort of empirical evidence. I once read a study about domestic violence in middle eastern countries …

Thank you.

You might have misunderstood my question about empirical validation.

On another topic, I see you showing some examples of good behavior in public discussions, and I see that as a way of helping to stop the cruelty, violence and oppression, and helping to reduce the damage.

Besides trying to change people’s ways of thinking, what other ideas do you have about what people can do offline in their everyday lives to help stop the cruelty, violence and oppression, and to help reduce the damage?

Wilgrea7, AuthenticKing, if you are practicing good behavior in these discussions, I would see that as a way of helping to stop the cruelty, violence and oppression from happening, and helping to reduce the damage. I’m still hoping for you to post some other ideas besides debating about religious beliefs, about what people can do in their everyday lives if they want to, to help stop the cruelty, violence and oppression from happening, and to help reduce the damage.

It is always a pleasure to prove you wrong. It’s been a while, but here goes.

Morality on the theistic view doesn’t come from God’s opinion, it comes from his nature. In fact, morals only exist because God “adheres” (wrong term) to them in the first place. On the Christian view, God is also consistent in His actions, regardless of your uneducated framing of Mary’s mysterious pregnancy. However, we are talking about theistic morals being tenable and morality not existing on atheism and not Christianity in particular. Muslims and Jews can and do use the exact same arguments. With some variation, so do Hindus.

Concerning God “living” that is obviously a manner of speaking. I’d appreciate if you could stick to the important things rather than get excited over minor details to make yourself feel better.

As for your saying I have no answers for questions asked, feel free to respond to this one in the same way you always do. I’ll also have you know that revealing what you think of me is pointless: it doesn’t affect me and I happen to think worse of you. I just don’t type any of it because I’m content being the evil theist you can’t get rid of. Not the evil, misogynistic, narcissistic meanie who makes middle aged menopausal women cry.

I’ll be here to debunk your reply later. Happy Sunday.

Tamaratonye1:



No. Wilgrea7 is correct. There is nothing objective about morals if they come from a god's opinion of what is right or wrong. Truly objective morals would require the god itself to adhere to them - for instance, the god of Christianity would be guilty of violating its own commandment against adultery by impregnating the betrothed Mary.

FYI, this was never a debate about whether or not a god exists. When we criticize religious morality the god is simply there as a placeholder, a hypothetical with the subtext "If god X exists..."

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Smh, lmfao, didn't know god was alive - so others could live like "he" does): If "he's" alive "he" excretes waste. I suppose that's what these kinds of your excretions into these threads are - "his" excrement. Pretty filthy, lol


I won't be holding my breath to read something of substance, rather than more ignorant ass twaddle from you "when you get back", Endtimer. You've shown quite clearly that when you have no answer you just pretend the questions weren't asked. You're as dishonest as the day is long, lol

Isn’t this exactly what I said in the post you quoted.

Wilgrea7:


Good day Sir.

I think you may have misunderstood my point here. I'm not asking for proof of the existence of A God, or e even any specific God in general.

All I'm asking, is for the theist, for example, the Christian to prove that it is indeed their God, and not any other one, who is the arbiter of the objective moral laws, if any, that exist in our universe.

Let me give an example.

Students in a school need to adhere to the rules set by the principal. The existence of a principal is not the issue here.

Now, let's say there were 20 people who claimed to be the principal, and demanded the students obey their rules.

Of course we can see right off the bat that only one of the 20 can indeed be the principal. In order to show that their rules are indeed binding on the students, one of them will have to prove that they are indeed the principal of the school, and hence, their rules, and not the ones of the other 19 people are what the students should obey.

Endtimer:
Isn’t this exactly what I said in the post you quoted.

One last thing I’ll say is that I’m sure other theists dealt with the original question thoroughly.

From your replies, you agree that this post has nothing to do with the moral argument. However, in the original question you seemed to be describing morality as the 3-dimensional content of the inside of a cube and “God’s morality” as a point in the cube. The question seemed to be : “why should we strive towards that point in space?”

The problem with this is that morality is better represented by a scale with a maximum and minimum value, with God’s nature at one end. Whether we like it or not, all our actions are somewhere on that scale and the point of Christianity is inclining them to the maximum value by force of will.

Endtimer:
It is always a pleasure to prove you wrong. It’s been a while, but here goes.

Morality on the theistic view doesn’t come from God’s opinion, it comes from his nature. In fact, morals only exist because God “adheres” (wrong term) to them in the first place. On the Christian view, God is also consistent in His actions, regardless of your uneducated framing of Mary’s mysterious pregnancy. However, we are talking about theistic morals being tenable and morality not existing on atheism and not Christianity in particular. Muslims and Jews can and do use the exact same arguments. With some variation, so do Hindus.

Concerning God “living” that is obviously a manner of speaking. I’d appreciate if you could stick to the important things rather than get excited over minor details to make yourself feel better.

As for your saying I have no answers for questions asked, feel free to respond to this one in the same way you always do. I’ll also have you know that revealing what you think of me is pointless: it doesn’t affect me and I happen to think worse of you. I just don’t type any of it because I’m content being the evil theist you can’t get rid of. Not the evil, misogynistic, narcissistic meanie who makes middle aged menopausal women cry.

I’ll be here to debunk your reply later. Happy Sunday.

You might want to know that some posts here including yours were being copied and pasted into other forums outside of Nairaland, and answers to those being copied back here under the names of Tamaratonye1, 1000WaysToLive, Near1, Midnight378, chryssanthe, Silverseed, and FemiAjani. That stopped more than a week ago, after it was pointed it out, and since then there haven't been any posts under those names.