IT'S OUTDATED, UNPOPULAR AND WILL SOON DIE A NATURAL DEATH - BY THE NEXT GENERATION.

HOWEVER, EDUCATION IS THE KEY TO KILLING IT.

I thank all of you who have responded to this thread on female circumcision.Indeed I have been educated by some well thought out and researched responders.Others have been largely sentimental,and yet others,exposing a lot of ignorance.

The truth is that most of you have completely missed the point I am trying to make in this thread.I should like you to read my thread again,slowly and thoroughly,taking care to assimilate the points and issues raised.For the purpose of clarity,let me itemize my arguement below:

1. While it is true that males who have Recurrent balanitis or Paraphimosis are advised to have circumcision for these health reasons,the majority of male circumcision is done for CULTURAL REASONS!! And I also said that I have seen quite a few terrible complications arising from badly done male circumcision.Bad enough to qualify as Genital Mutilation.So the claim of health reason for male circumcision is just to find a reasn to justify it.

2. Many men in cultures where male circumcision is not practiced,have done very well with their prepuce intact.No complaints whatsoever.So what is the cultural reason for male circumcision? In the same vein,I can assure you that the majority of parents who circumcize their male children have no clue about the Medical problems that can arise from the absence thereof.So why would they circumcize their boys for Medical problems they dont know about?

3. In my understanding,female circumcision involves the complete or partial removal of the clitoris.Nothing more,nothing less.If there are cases with mutilated labia and womb etc,as some responders have indicated,those must be complications and not procedures of intent.

4. Why is it so easy to condemn our elders who claim,amongst other beliefs,that female circumcision puts a check on the sexual excesses of a wife? In their wisdom they must have made their own observations,come together and agreed to inculcate this practice into their culture.Now these people practice female circumcision and the husbands amongst them have not sufficiently complained,neither have their wives also complained enough to render the practice unpopular!! This is the point I am making.When and if, it gets to such a stage,the practice will die a natural death.How is it that we have suddenly become wiser than these elders and are even emboldened enough to run their lives for them?

5. I beg to disagree with those that claim that female circumcision(that is removal of the clitoris only, and nothing else) renders a girl frigid.Anybody who is sufficiently experienced in these matters will agree with me that many circumcized girls enjoy sex,love it and regularly have orgasms.On the other hand,there are many uncircumcized girls who are frigid and who hate sex.So there are definitely other factors that interplay.I am sure the communities that practice female circumcision also love their women to be good in bed! If they are not getting it,they would have thrown the culture into the thrash bin.Period.

6. Finally, I neither support nor condemn female circumcision.All I am saying is that we can express our opinions,but we will be going too far if we insist on legislations against it.Yes,quacks who mutilate,causing severe morbidity or even mortality,be it female or male circumcision,should be brought to book.That's entirely in order.But when the practice is safely carried out,please lets leave them to their devises.

Octopus,
I'm really trying to understand your argument, but sorry I don't get it.

Yes, male circumcision is cultural too, but saying there are health benefits is not just to justify doing it, because research has shown that there ARE true benefits. Check up on the word 'smegma' which is found in the uncircumcised phallus and has been implicated in the increased transmission of Herpes Simplex Type 2 virus which causes Cervical Cancer in women. Lets not even talk about HIV and other STI's.

Female Genital Cutting though cultural too, HAS NO ADVANTAGE WHATSOEVER. It does not just involve the removal of the clitoris, but comes in four types.

Type 1: Clitoridectomy ie removal of the clitoris

Type 2: Clitoridectomy, plus removal of the labia minora

Tpye 3: Above plus removal of the labia majora

Type 4: Infundibulation, which involves removal of the clitoris, labia minora and majora and also sewing
up of the external Instruments, leaving a small opening for urine and menstrual flow.

This actually happens. Not only do these women have problems achieving orgasm, they have painful mensturation,
painful intercourse and complicated labour.

It is cultural yes, but it is an evil culture and should be ranked somewhere with the killing of twins.
FGM must be banned outright. It is criminal.

Why do we hide under the word "cultural". many a thing that we do can be termed "cultural". male circumcision has been clinically proved to be good for the health. so , cultural or not, we accept. female circumcision has been proved not to be good for emotional and psychological well being of the woman involved. except in rare occasions. so, cultural or not. we should not accept it. we should stop hiding under the umbrella of "culture".

women circumsition is is somehow gud. but it depends on how it is done. if what they normally cut is left too long, it makes them nympho's.
conversely, if cut and becomes too short, it renders them frigid.

jinworm:

women circumsition is is somehow good. but it depends on how it is done. if what they normally cut is left too long, it makes them nympho's.
conversely, if cut and becomes too short, it renders them frigid.

All this grammer and either you have not been reading, you dont understand or you are just,

i find this so distressing right now

@ Oyb: I quote you:

"so what about western mutilation of women?
in the west, women inject foreign materials (silicone) into their breasts,
they inject neurotoxins (botox-botulism toxin) into their faces,
they go under the knife-their faces are stretched, their bodies are carved up,

all in the name of neeting the western ideal of beauty.

no activists seem to be harping about this.none are concerned about the mental mutilation that the promotion of the western ideal of beauty does to young women-anorexia, bulimia, depression."

I hope you're not comparing breast enhancement to female circumcision! At least, the women who opt for that, make a choice, I've never heard of a parent getting their babies injected with silicone, as you so eloquently put it. And, it's not just western women who go for breast enhancement, African, Hispanic, Asian, Oriental and Caucasian ALL have breast surgery.

Plastic surgery too, is a choice both men and women, of all races make, because they feel they'd look better for it. Now, whether it DOES improve their looks, is besides the point - the fact is it makes THEM feel better.

And you made a point of Anorexia / Bulimia. Where did you do you research, and discover that they're "Western" conditions?

And lastly, if you were a woman, (you might be) would you willingly submit your clitoris to be sliced off, all in the name of "custom"? My Nigerian background DOES have some traditions / customs, but just because it's been practiced for decades, doesn't mean I'm blind to them, and accept them. Come on, be realistic!

just the thoughts of Female Circumcision, makes me start to shiver!!!

It sounds painful

I will only listen to a woman that has done and is supporting it.
Then we know what she is talking about.
I once met one useless white lady married to a Nigerian, She said that if she had a daughter she will have her Circumcisied , because her husband wants it.
I had to tell the useless fool to have it done on herself first while the rest of us will pray she only has sons.

LOL.
She should also have it without anesthesia,foolish woman

i know a lot of women that had it done . and not one of them is happy about it.

dr chic,
1. The true medical indications for male circumcision are Recurrent Balanitis and Paraphimosis.I have not heard of prophylactic circumcision in a bid to prevent transmission of HIV,Herpes Simplex type 2 or to prevent Cervical cancer.I know a bit about SMEAGMA.I know also that uncircumcized males are taught how to take care of their prepuce so as to avoid retention of smeagma.Furthermore,the relationship bw smeagma(thru Herpes Simplex type 2 transmission)and Ca Cx is only associative and not causative.As u know,the aetiology of cancers in general,is uncertain.

2.You claim there is absolutely no benefit to female circumcision,but the practitioners claim it checks the sexual excesses of MARRIED WOMEN(Its interesting to note that they appear little concerned abt the single ladies,but that is an issue for discussion on another date).You claim the practice is wrong,they claim it is ok.Now,u notice that what is right with one community maybe an abomination with another.For instance,certain communities in Nigeria encourage their daughters to have children out of wedlock,once they get to a certain age unmarried,but others will condemn it totally.So,what is right or wrong,as far as traditions are concerned is relative.

3. I beg to disagree with your types 2-4 female circumcision.If the goal of circumcision is to reduce promiscuity,then there should be no need to touch the labia.If the labia is mutilated its logical to assume this is inadvertent consequent upon quackery.The practitioners of female circumcision definitely will not want their females not to enjoy sex at all,or to have dysmenorrhoea, painful intercourse,or complicated labours.Certainly not.I think it is unfair to assume so or to attribute it to male chauvinism.It might interest u to know that the women in these societies are the champions of the course!!And they dutifully carry out the circumcision themselves.

4. Killing of twins was a practice that died a natural death.Similarly,the traditional Ibadan tribal marks(The Sergent Major type-with due apologies to all concerned),is fast disappearing from our streets.These practices have died and are dying from unpopularity and not from legislative bans.This is the issue here.Also talking about consent from the infant,babies are not consulted b4 their faces are mutilated in the name of tribal marks,or as somebody pointed out,b4 their ears are mutilated in the name of ear piercing.Yet nobody is crying out.Why is it different in the case of female circumcision?

5. As I said b4,many females still enjoy sex even when circumcized.The issue of female sexuality is much more complex than the genitals will suggest.The woman's most important "sexual organ" is the mind and not the clitoris.Once a woman's mind is in it,she will enjoy sex to the fullest.I can confirm that.

6. If you ask me,female circumcision has not succeeded in curbing infidelity in married women.But the societies that practice this act need to be allowed to face this reality and then begin to have a re-think.For instance,I am told that,until recently female infant circumcision was the norm in Igboland.But now its virtually unpractised.Why? Certainly not because of the complications,but they have seen that that alone will not make a difference in a woman's conduct.

7.In conclusion,do I want to see an end to the practice? Frankly my answer is that I am indifferent.However I am resolute in condemning any attempt to kill it by legislation.Opponents should work by persuasion and education to achieve their goals.

Some people make senseless arguments to support evil.
The equation goes:
male circumcision= good
female circumcision= evil, bad

whoever supports it has a problem.

I agree with those who say FGC is not that different from Male circumcision.

Did you know that men and women both have foreskins? Both men and women have prepuces. In the male it's called the foreskin, and in the female it's called the clitoral hood.

If female circumcision was medicalized, just like male circumcision, and they didn't do the infibulation and sewing up of the vagina (which is what causes most of the health issues) then why be against it? It's no different from male circumcision in that case.

Me, personally, I think ALL circumcision is wrong. We're made the way we are for a reason.

HEALTH COMPLICATIONS FROM MALE CIRCUMCISION:

-Meatal Stenosis (Only circumcised boys suffer from this and many times the condition requires surgical correction)
-Tight painful erections (If the circumcision removes too much skin, there is not enough skin left to accomodate the erection. This can cause the skin to BREAK on the penis)
-Skin bridges
-Penile adhesions
-Desensitization of the penis
-AMPUTATION (YES, THERE ARE SEVERAL CASES OF THE PENIS HEAD GETTING CUT OFF DURING CIRCUMCISION)
-DEATH (AGAIN, SEVERAL DOCUMENTED CASES)

With that long list of complications, how can people NOT call male circumcision "mutiliation" just like they call female circumcision? Hypocrisy.

God that instructed the isrealites limited it to the men. Where on earth did women entr into the picture. It is just barbaric really.

culture culture culture!!!1, Its all about cultural believes which in turn implies: the way of life. I think its bad , but as an african, history elicits a storng male ego that has over the years relegated women to the back,. shutting them up. They are believed to be slaves and sex objects: something to be played with at the mans volition, its a long story,


Its culture shit

For once I totally agree with Seun.

@Poster: I can't believe this is coming from a woman. I mean what the heck? You should be able to identify with the pain of the unfortunate victims of the practice more. Ok, so u don't want cultural practices to die abi? Before the intervention of Mary Slessor, twins in calabar used to be killed. In some tribes in Nigeria, men entertain guests with their wives, I could go on and on. i suppose you would want such practices to continue as well? All in the name of 'not wanting to be dominated by western values.' Psshiou, errant nonsense!

@ MP007
Totally agree with you, sad to know even educated people still carry out this barbaric act, in the name of culture. I would have loved to castrate the men in that culture to see how they feel.
PUT AN END TO FEMALE CIRCUMCISION NOW.

culture culture culture!!!1, Its all about cultural believes which in turn implies: the way of life. I think its bad , but as an african, history elicits a storng male ego that has over the years relegated women to the back,. shutting them up. They are believed to be slaves and sex objects: something to be played with at the mans volition, its a long story,


Its culture shit

I absolutly agree with you. Africans use culture to degrade women and some African women have become so brainwashed with this "yes" mentality to men that men get away with any evil.

[QUOTE]Cgift: God that instructed the isrealites limited it to the men. Where on earth did women entr into the picture. It is just barbaric really.[/QUOTE]

God instructed the JEWS to circumcise their sons. And even then, circumcision back then didn't remove nearly as much skin as it does today.

Christians are under NO obligation whatsoever to circumcise their sons. The New Testament releases Christians from all of the Old Testament's covenants, such as sacrificing animals and eye-for-an-eye.

Romans 3:29-30
Does God belong to the Jews alone?  Is he not also the God of the
Gentiles?  Yes, of the Gentiles, too.  It is the same God who justifies
the circumcised and the uncircumcised on the basis of faith.

1 Corinthians 7:18-19
Was someone called after he had been circumcised?  He should not try to
hide his circumcision.  Did the call come to another who had never been
circumcised?  He is not to be circumcised.  Circumcision counts for
nothing, and its lack makes no difference either.  What matters is keeping
God's commandments.

There is no CHRISTIAN reason to circumcise anyone. Male or female.

I do not condemn FGC in totality though it have it own side effect if it was wrongly done. Please, let me ask, some ladies perforate there clitoris and put ring there, It is done by the whites mostly. Is it not female genital mutilation as well or what do you call it.

If it is well done, it is ok by me. If the argument is on the innocence of the child, them why do we perforate the ears of little girl at a very tender age when they do not know what is been done to them? I have seen a girl of less than 3 month carrying cutex in her finger, was that done with her permission.

If we are talikng of health hassard, good. Please, what is the nutritional value of coke drink ? It is almost the consumed soft drink with all it health risk still people are falling over it as if it is where life ends.

Umunna, female circumcision is ok by me as far as it is done well.

I suggest you stay in your Enugu jeje. This has got to be the DUMBEST post I've seen on Nairaland in months. What an amazing feat.
Comparing piercing of the ears to removing the clitoris. Then bringing up genital piercing which people do ON THEIR OWN, not freaking forced and tied down then brutally torture.

Btw what the hell is a "health hassard"? You havent even mentioned ONE good that FC brings.

Please just don't even discuss this in your life again. What an embarrassment

osisi, you had berra speak to your brother now now

Actually, there is a study that says that circumcised women are less likely to get HIV. The same as circumcised men:

http://www.ias-2005.org/planner/Abstracts.aspx?AID=3138

Female circumcision and HIV infection in Tanzania: for better or for worse?

Conclusions: A lowered risk of HIV infection among circumcised women was not attributable to confounding with another risk factor in these data. Anthropological insights on female circumcision as practiced in Tanzania may shed light on this conundrum.

So when will the campaigns to circumcise women in order to lower HIV infection roll out?

or they can just use condoms like normal people.

[QUOTE]or they can just use condoms like normal people.[/QUOTE]

That's not what they tell the men. They tell them to get circumcised because it "protects" them from HIV.

well that and the fact that most women don't like the look of an uncircumsized penis 

oh and circumsized are easier to clean as opposed to having to pull back foreskin where bacteria can reside.

take a biology class sometime.

ThiefofHearts,

I'm well-versed in biology. The question is are you?

And what fact is it that most women don't like an uncircumcised penis? The majority of men in the world are uncircumcised, it would seem that plenty of women have no problem with it.

And if you consider pulling back the foreskin and washing, which takes all of 5 seconds, to be difficult, then I feel sorry for you, because clearly simple tasks are a challenge for you.

Lol I dont have one so it's not my "task" . Btw it should be more than 5 secs. You guys need to stop being so gross

and i take back "most" but some women dont like it. guess they are used to seeing circumsized ones as the norm around them.

You're right about some women, because it is their norm.

Just like some women who are used to non-circumcised joysticks think that circumcised joysticks, with their ugly scars and dried-out penis heads are gross.

To each their own, no? 

It's now obvious. You still have your extra skin. pele.