Is that supposed to be an insult? LMAO

Cause it's not to me.

Ladies and gentlemen,
I thank u all for all your inputs.Having read all your wonderful and most respected inputs,I can safely draw the following conclusions:

1. There is no scriptural basis for male or female circumcision today.Fufu king has proven that from the scriptural references he quoted.In other words,circumcision or no circumcision is not what determines who goes to heaven.Therefore,circumcision per se,is no sin b4 God,whether it is male or female.

2. Male circumcision is fraught with as much complications as female circumcision.So siting the complications of female circumcision as a reason to stop it is not tenable.If complications is the issue,then like Fufu king suggested,the campaigners should campaign against both male and female circumcision.

3. There are many more uncircumcized males in the world than the circumcized.So male circumcision is the exception rather than the rule.It also suggests that those who practice it,do so for cultural reasons and the pious ones will want to tow the line of Old testament instructions by doing it on the 8th day of life.These are all ok if it satisfies there cultural and religious egos.

4. Claiming that female circumcision is not beneficial as a reason to stop it is also a matter of individual opinion.Those who practice it claim very strongly,that it has checked the infidelity in their societies.Who are we to to deny it? If it works for them,so be it.

5. Cultural practices are optional.One reserves the right to refuse any item of practice in his culture and nothing will happen,especially if the person is independent financially and otherwise.I remember a few years ago when we went to bury my father.The villagers had certain expectations of my poor mother,but my brothers and I put our feet down and refused them.She did not shave her hair,she slept when she wished and where she wanted.We refused her being disturbed when she wanted to rest.There was nothing anybody could do about it because they knew we depended on them for nothing.We just wanted the feel of home and family for my dad's burial,but on our own terms.Had they proved difficult,we would have done well with our guests and friends who came from outside town!But fortunately they cooperated.So what am I saying? If you dont like female circumcision,dont perform it on ur daughters.For those who believe its beneficial,leave them alone.Otherwise u will be poke nosing in other people's biz.

5. I also noticed that the majority of opponents of female circumcision are just being sentimental and sensational,because it has to do with the female privates.Everybody seems interested and naturally,curious.There is a lot of unsupported name calling such as "barbaric", "evil", "wicked" etc.Yet no clear arguements in favour of female circumcision over male cicumcision.Is that not hypocrisy? I think it is.These people claim they love the female folk so much and want to "defend" them,but I know its mostly gossip and insincerety.

6. Finally,I want to thank everybody again.Lets move on to something else.I sign out.

HEALTH COMPLICATIONS FROM MALE CIRCUMCISION:

-Meatal Stenosis (Only circumcised boys suffer from this and many times the condition requires surgical correction)
-Tight painful erections (If the circumcision removes too much skin, there is not enough skin left to accomodate the erection. This can cause the skin to BREAK on the penis)
-Skin bridges
-Penile adhesions
-Desensitization of the penis
-AMPUTATION (YES, THERE ARE SEVERAL CASES OF THE PENIS HEAD GETTING CUT OFF DURING CIRCUMCISION)
-DEATH (AGAIN, SEVERAL DOCUMENTED CASES)

With that long list of complications, how can people NOT call male circumcision "mutiliation" just like they call female circumcision? Hypocrisy.

Biggest load of crap.
As a young man in Nigeria you risk being shot by armed robbers or killed in a car accident than most places in the world so why were you born?

Octupus:

Ladies and gentlemen,
I thank u all for all your inputs.Having read all your wonderful and most respected inputs,I can safely draw the following conclusions:

1. There is no scriptural basis for male or female circumcision today.Fufu king has proven that from the scriptural references he quoted.In other words,circumcision or no circumcision is not what determines who goes to heaven.Therefore,circumcision per se,is no sin before God,whether it is male or female.

2. Male circumcision is fraught with as much complications as female circumcision.So siting the complications of female circumcision as a reason to stop it is not tenable.If complications is the issue,then like Fufu king suggested,the campaigners should campaign against both male and female circumcision.

3. There are many more uncircumcized males in the world than the circumcized.So male circumcision is the exception rather than the rule.It also suggests that those who practice it,do so for cultural reasons and the pious ones will want to tow the line of Old testament instructions by doing it on the 8th day of life.These are all ok if it satisfies there cultural and religious egos.

4. Claiming that female circumcision is not beneficial as a reason to stop it is also a matter of individual opinion.Those who practice it claim very strongly,that it has checked the infidelity in their societies.Who are we to to deny it? If it works for them,so be it.

5. Cultural practices are optional.One reserves the right to refuse any item of practice in his culture and nothing will happen,especially if the person is independent financially and otherwise.I remember a few years ago when we went to bury my father.The villagers had certain expectations of my poor mother,but my brothers and I put our feet down and refused them.She did not shave her hair,she slept when she wished and where she wanted.We refused her being disturbed when she wanted to rest.There was nothing anybody could do about it because they knew we depended on them for nothing.We just wanted the feel of home and family for my dad's burial,but on our own terms.Had they proved difficult,we would have done well with our guests and friends who came from outside town!But fortunately they cooperated.So what am I saying? If you don't like female circumcision,don't perform it on your daughters.For those who believe its beneficial,leave them alone.Otherwise u will be poke nosing in other people's biz.

5. I also noticed that the majority of opponents of female circumcision are just being sentimental and sensational,because it has to do with the female privates.Everybody seems interested and naturally,curious.There is a lot of unsupported name calling such as "barbaric", "evil", "wicked" etc.Yet no clear arguements in favour of female circumcision over male cicumcision.Is that not hypocrisy? I think it is.These people claim they love the female folk so much and want to "defend" them,but I know its mostly gossip and insincerety.

6. Finally,I want to thank everybody again.Lets move on to something else.I sign out.

Octopus, your post made a LOT of sense and your points are valid. Thank you.

+osisi:



Biggest load of crap.
As a young man in Nigeria you risk being shot by armed robbers or killed in a car accident than most places in the world so why were you born?

What? Your jumbled up post doesn't make much sense.

Are you saying you're more likely to get shot in Nigeria by armed robbers than suffer from a complication of circumcision?

If so, that may be true, Nigeria is a dangerous place. But complications from circumcision while "rare" (I use that word sparingly because in the third world no one documents and reports regularly the complications) are very real and very devastating. I can post several news articles of boys who suffered from death and amputation as a direct result of their circumcision. Would you like to challenge me?

Ladies and Gentlemen,
Just as I was exiting this blog,I stumbled into this input on a topic on Male circumcision here on the Nairaland forum.Perhaps it might interest some of us.Enjoy it:

"I don't agree with it personally. If adults want to, fine, but I don't think it's right to do it to babies. Of course, if it is your religion or culture to do it, then I won't tell you what to do. but just be aware that you are only doing it for religious or cultural reasons, no other.

I know it is the standard practise in Nigeria but also be aware that it is not standard practise in most of the world at all. Very few men overall are circumcised. Only 20% in the world. do you think that the other 80% are all unclean or diseased? Of course not. It is incredibly rare in the UK and as others have said, it is seen as a Jewish and Muslim habit, Christians don't do it here. In my whole life I've only known one British man who was circumcised and most people will never meet anyone who is. And I think circumcised joysticks look ugly compared to normal ones. See? It's just a case of what you are used to looking right.

You should be aware that the 'health' claims are bogus - all the major medical authorities in the world say that there are no health benefits. Even the American medical association says so and it is still very common practise in the US for cultural reasons.

Cleanliness. A dirty person is dirty all over. A clean person is clean all over. We don't chop off our ears just because some dirty people don't wash behind them properly.

Danger - this is a surgical operation you are performing on a very young baby. Even in the west with modern medical facilities babies have died because of circumcisions - they can get infected badly. Also, sometimes the operation goes wrong and the penis is left deformed. These complications are very rare, yes that's true, but they do happen and parents should be aware that they are taking a risk with their babies health and even life. Any operation can have complications. In a few very rare cases the little boy has completely lost his penis.
See here for photos of deformities caused by circumcisions - http://www.circumstitions.com/Restric/Botched3sc.html.

the attached photo shows the result of gangrene developed from circumcision

Pain - you inflict great pain on the baby. Did you know that the foreskin is 100% joined/stuck to the penis tip until a boy is about 5 years old - in exactly the same way that a fingernail is stuck to the skin underneath it. It doesn't move or retract at all. When they circumcise they have to pull it off - just like pulling a fingernail off the skin below it - and the baby is left with raw skin afterwards. Now imagine how painful that is. Now imagine that you have a raw wound and get pee and poop on it as well that people keep cleaning off.

Function - it does have a negative effect on the sexual function. I know you don't want to hear that and you'll all deny it because who wants to believe that about himself but really, unless you've had sex with both circumcised and uncircumcised men, how would you know?

For a start - The skin is much thicker and less sensitive on the tip of the circumcised penis once you get to middle age and it has been exposed for years. This is a process called keritinisation. The tip is just protecting itself with thicker skin after you've removed its natural protection. Want to know how different it is? The skin here is very similar to your lip. Tough the outside of your lip - the part that is exposed to everything. Dry and although it is fairly sensitive it isn't extremely sensitive. Now touch your lip right inside your mouth. Moist and very highly sensitive. Yet it is the same lip and exactly the same skin. The outer part becomes dry, thicker and less sensitive because it is permanently exposed. The same thing happens to the man's penis. An uncircumcised man's penis skin is moist, soft and far more sensitive than that of a circumcised mans. Honestly. why would I lie to you?

Secondly, the forskin performs a useful function by reducing friction and allowing much free-er movement.

Thirdly, it is a large area of skin full of nerve endings. The nerve endings are both inside and outside the foreskin and it is very sensitive. One estimate is that the penis loses one third of all its nerve endings when you circumcise. Poor men!


Fourthly - you also lose the frenulum. this is a tiny piece of skin that runs between underneath your penis and the foreskin. It may be tiny but wow it packs a punch. One every man I've ever known this is the most sensitive area of their penis. Literally 'fireworks' sensitive.

So if you are a parent, make your choice, but do it with all the facts. Don't do it just because you think everyone else does it, because worldwide, you are strange if you DO circumcise your children. Even if it is common within your culture then think about it properly before going ahead."

I think its a good idea!

Thats if it actually reduces Infidelity.

@macutie: why don't you cut off your husband's penis in order to prevent infidelity? Nonsense.

Honestly, I'm tired of octopus and her argument. Her only saving grace is that she is clear,precise and logical,
but still wrong!

If any female dares to argue she is branded as emotional, sentimental or sensational.

I'm tired.If i comment anymore I might come across as being insultive but by all means madam marry a man who insists that you and your daughters be circumcised for cultural reasons and then try persuasion te get him to drop the idea.

And yes i AM being emotional.

Fufu King:

Is that supposed to be an insult? LMAO

Cause it's not to me.

never said it to be insulting. I can just understand your frustration now.

Macutie, are you drunk?

I suggest you put the crackpipe down.

ThiefOfHearts:

never said it to be insulting. I can just understand your frustration now.

Frustration? Frustration with what exactly?

Tradition is dynamic,we got to refine and create traditions that suits our everyday life in the 21st century.Some times i wonder why african girls are not easily sexually aroused?They just see sex as one big deal,meanwhile it is just like eating food.

meanwhile <sex> is just like eating food.

Amen to that, my brother. Preach it!!

dr chic,
I am glad u have finally admitted the inevitable-that all campaigns against female circumcision are based on emotions,sentiments and sensation.That's ok and that's the female thing.Everybody knows that women,except with a few exceptions,HONESTLY base their arguments on sentiments.That's the way God created them and all men have to accept that.

No need getting personal.I mean talking about my family.I already have one but I am not going to comment on our private matters.But the truth is that no campaign on any issue will ever get the legislative nod except it is based on "clear,precise and logical reasons" I am sorry,that's the way it goes(The law is never based on sentiments).Until that happens I am afraid we just have to stick to the status quo.

And please dont argue any further if you dont have a any other choice but to get "insultive".It is not a war.We are just discussing issues to the best of our abilities and knowledge.

Nice chatting with u and do have a nice day.

But the truth is that no campaign on any issue will ever get the legislative nod except it is based on "clear,precise and logical reasons"

And the FACTS that point out Female Genital Cutting as a HARMFUL cultural practice are not clear, precise and logical
enough for you?

obviously not.

perhaps you should break it down even more for her. Some people are just "special"

Someone needs to apply a razor-blade to her private area, otherwise she won't understand anything.

Whoa, don't know the impact of this practice, OMG,

http://www.geocities.com/restoremaine/pics/fgm/fgm_pics.htm

Here are pics. If it does not make u cry, u are not human. Anyone that does this should be jailed.

dr chic,
What about the facts pointing out the MALE genital cutting as harmful? Are they not clear enough for you to advocate its ban? Logic demands that since both practices can be harmful,the campaign should be all encompassing and not preferential.That's the point,my dear.Its shear hypocrisy to campaign against one and leave the other.

Secondly,what do you think is the incidence of complications in FGC in Nigeria? I tell you it is less than one in a hundred.That is,for every complicated case,there would have been 99 others done complication free.

Ojobayo,
I have seen the pictures.

Can you tell me what is making you cry about those genitals? Kindly explain to us in this forum,what has been done to those females.If possible,picture by picture.I want to be sure that you know what you are talking about.I want to be sure that you are not one of those "sensationalists" who have joined the band wagon without having a clue about what it is all about.That you are not one of those who readily site female circumcision as another atrocity and act of oppression by the male gender against the female gender.Please do it clearly and precisely.Many thanks in anticipation.

Why must circumcision be done?Is there any known medical benefit attached to it?if not,what is the point.Oh,evolution,yet to catch up.Putting children in unnecessary agony.

ojoboyo. please ignore Octopus.

Dont even think of posting those pics. Disgusting.

and why are you bringing up male circusmision in the first place, isnt this thread about female's?

Octupus:

dr chic,
What about the facts pointing out the MALE genital cutting as harmful? Are they not clear enough for you to advocate its ban? Logic demands that since both practices can be harmful,the campaign should be all encompassing and not preferential.That's the point,my dear.Its shear hypocrisy to campaign against one and leave the other.

Secondly,what do you think is the incidence of complications in FGC in Nigeria? I tell you it is less than one in a hundred.That is,for every complicated case,there would have been 99 others done complication free.

Octupus,

They don't want to go down this argument because they know that the evidence is not in their favor.

They also want to ignore the fact that there are many circumcised women who LIKE being circumcised and are happy to have been. Much like many circumcised men say the same thing. But they are only interested in launching personal insults against you, rather than intellectually and truly debating the topic.

Some things (like murder, pedophilia, and genital mutilation) cannot be discussed 'rationally'.
If someone is pointing a gun at your baby, how do you discuss it 'rationally'?

Just because your privates have been destroyed, you want to share the pain with others.
Bring your vagina and let me cut it for you. Nonsense. Let me mutilate you 'rationally'.

On a more rational note: when the girls grow up, let them decide on whether they want it.

Seun:

Some things (like murder, pedophilia, and genital mutilation) cannot be discussed 'rationally'.
If someone is pointing a gun at your baby, how do you discuss it 'rationally'?

Just because your privates have been destroyed, you want to share the pain with others.
Bring your vagina and let me cut it for you. Nonsense. Let me mutilate you 'rationally'.

On a more rational note: when the girls grow up, let them decide on whether they want it.

So am I to presume that you are against circumcising infant baby boys?

That's the double-standard that Octopus and I are talking about. To denounce the practice of female circumcision and its harmful effects and the lack of consent of the girl, only to turn around and circumcise your 7-day-old son is hypocritical. If you are anti-female circumcision because it can result in disfiguration and is done without the child's permission, that same protection should be afforded to little boys.

Let men and women both decide when they are older if they want to be circumcised.

Personally, I think men should be allowed to make the decision to be circumcised or not.
But it's hard to convince parents not to do it because the bible makes it seem compulsory.
So it's a battle I'd rather not fight since I'm yet to hear of one case that ended badly.

The best way to settle this issue is to ask a qualified medical doctor to circumcise your baby.
If it's a boy, he will do it. If it's a girl, he will definitely not do it because he knows it's wrong.

Seun:

Personally, I think men should be allowed to make the decision to be circumcised or not.
But it's hard to convince parents not to do it because the bible makes it seem compulsory.
So it's a battle I'd rather not fight since I'm yet to hear of one case that ended badly.

The best way to settle this issue is to ask a qualified medical doctor to circumcise your baby.
If it's a boy, he will do it. If it's a girl, he will definitely now do it because he knows it's wrong.

Well, good. At least your arguments are consistent. That's good.

As for never hearing of circumcisions gone bad, allow me to expand your horizons:

-Glans of baby boy's penis amputated
http://www.wbbm780.com/pages/695147.php?contentType=4&contentId=700283

-Canadian baby dies after complications from circumcision
http://www.canada.com/cityguides/ottawa/story.html?id=cb3b8281-4134-46ba-85d3-b076072bda75&k=25810

-Pakistani baby dies during circumcision
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007%5C07%5C02%5Cstory_2-7-2007_pg11_7

-South African boy found dead after botched circumcision
http://www.sabcnews.com/south_africa/crime1justice/0,2172,151431,00.html

And I'd like to point out, that much like female circumcision, many cases of injury and death related to circumcision go unreported.

Circumcisions done after birth is more safer than when the boy is older, so South Africans should stop that kind of culture, or better still, it should be done in a hospital and by a registered practitioner. It's not only South Africans, some West Africans also do the same.

champredd:

Circumcisions done after birth is more safer than when the boy is older, so South Africans should stop that kind of culture, or better still, it should be done in a hospital and by a registered practitioner. It's not only South Africans, some West Africans also do the same.

This is false.

Circumcisions done at any age are risky.

In a hospital setting, I'd argue that they're safer when the boy is older. An older boy will get anesthesia and pain medicine. Many infants get nothing more than a rag soaked in a sugar solution. Also, as an infant, the baby is in a diaper and he urinates and defecates on an OPEN WOUND, which often leads to meatal stenosis, because the foreskin isn't there to protect the glans.

Also read the links I posted, most of the boys who died were babies and the boy who had the head of his penis chopped off was a baby.

And even when done by medical practicioners, things go wrong and complications occur! All of the stories I posted, except the South African one, were circumcisions done by experienced doctors.

still talking about males in a thread about femle circumcision.

If you boys have/had a problem with yours, why dont you start a crusade or help line like the others?

Research have shown that circumcision can reduce HIV prevalence among males.