^^ it is quite interesting that the two igbo-ukwu pieces in that video are older that those of ife.  so maybe it was igbo that influenced ife?

exotik:

^^ it is quite interesting that the two igbo-ukwu pieces in that video are older that those of ife.  so maybe it was igbo that influenced ife?

Which video are you referring to, Exotik?

the second one.

I didn't see any Igbo-Ukwu art in that video.

Are you referring to the quartz stool? That's an Ife artifact.

lol, really? u didnt see any? are u sure u watched the video at all?

anyway, watch from 4:00, you will see the two pieces.

exotik:

lol, really? u didnt see any? are u show u watched the video at all?

anyway, watch from 4:00, you will see the two pieces.

I saw the two now.

It's definitely possible.  Igbo-Ukwu is the oldest, then Ife, and then Benin, in terms of lost-wax technique.  The technique had to come from somewhere.

The terracottas from Nok are of course the oldest in terms of naturalistic and sophisticated art of the kind found in various forms in Igbo-Ukwu, Ife, and Benin.

The stone figures from Esie (naturalistic as well) might be contemporaneous with Igbo-Ukwu, some peg them as contemporary with Ife.

ok. so igbo-ukwu influenced ife.

exotik:

ok. so igbo-ukwu influenced ife.

That's an interesting leap of logic. The style of art and metal composition of the two civilizations were quite different.


But if that is true, there is no insecurity to come from that. Igbo-Ukwu had a great artistic tradition.

my apologies to lakal

im not an expert but i know that for sure the style of art is not going to be the same.  igbo-ukwu, ife, and benin all have different styles coz the style of art are either influenced by the culture of the people or the personality/individuality of the artist. but the main purpose those two pieces were placed there by the "experts", was to prove that ife was influenced by igbo-ukwu.

exotik:

im not an expert but i know that for sure the style of art is not going to be the same.  igbo-ukwu, ife, and benin all have different styles coz the style of art are either influenced by the culture of the people or the personality of the artist. but the main purpose those two pieces were placed there by the "experts", was to prove that ife was influenced by igbo-ukwu.

. . . actually, if you listened to the video, they included those pieces to prove that the bronze-casting tradition was homegrown and occurred in locations other than Ife -- that the tradition did not come from the Greeks, etc.  They weren't making any points about stylistic or other influence from Igbo-Ukwu.  If you got that, it's not from what they said.


Why is it so important to you to prove that Ife was influenced by Igbo-Ukwu?  I have no problem with that if it's true;  groups of people influence each other all the time.  The lost-wax method was a highly advanced artistic method, and as of now, Igbo-Ukwu was the first group in W. Africa to use that method, shikena.


. . . But if I say Ife influenced Benin (artistically, not even Oduduwa stuffs), I really think that you'd have a problem.

Notice the one-pack (yes, no 6-packs!)

exotik:

im not an expert but i know that for sure the style of art is not going to be the same.  igbo-ukwu, ife, and benin all have different styles coz the style of art are either influenced by the culture of the people or the personality/individuality of the artist. but the main purpose those two pieces were placed there by the "experts", was to prove that ife was influenced by igbo-ukwu.

Present your evidence so for peer review so we can analyze your logic.

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ3xKckEWmc&feature=related[/flash]


[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSlRVBkBsec&feature=related[/flash]

lol, lakal, you are drifting. and havent you already said ife art is older than that of benin? did you see me argue? and im not earger to prove anything, im only responding to what i saw on the video, and then asking question. but you are dragging benin into it out of desperation, i suppose?

anyway, the reason those two peices were placed there was because they are older and according to the curator, it proved ife could not have been influenced by greek or a far away ancient european tribe but one that is close by.  so can u swallow your pride now, and let the "experts" win?

exotik:

lol, lakal, you are drifting. and havent you already said ife art is older than that of benin? did you see me argue? and im not earger to prove anything, im only responding to what i saw on the video, and then asking question. but you are dragging benin into it out of desperation, i suppose?

anyway, the reason those two peices were placed there was because they are older and according to the curator, it proved ife could not have been influenced by greek or a far away ancient european tribe but one that is close by.  so can u swallow your pride now, and let the "experts" win?

You would have a point if there was an argument. There isn't. Stop trying to desperately make one, it just isn't working.

. . .

In fact, let me quote myself.

Why is it so important to you to prove that Ife was influenced by Igbo-Ukwu? I have no problem with that if it's true; groups of people influence each other all the time. The lost-wax method was a highly advanced artistic method, and as of now, Igbo-Ukwu was the first group in W. Africa to use that method, shikena.

amor4ce:




Notice the one-pack (yes, no 6-packs!)



Present your evidence so for peer review so we can analyze your logic.

so what evidence are u looking for exactly? igbo and ife dont dress alike, and do not have same facial marks. but this was what the curator had to say:

"It was so beautiful and wonderful that Fabrinus didn’t think it could have been made by an African. He thought it was of Greek or ancient European origin. He identified it with Poseidon, with the god of the sea. He identified the Kingdom of Ife with the lost Kingdom of Atlantis, and he wrote all of this up. And indeed, it was published in the illustrated London news over there in 1910.   What happened in order to disprove all if this, was over there where those people are, two small brasses excavated in 1939 by Taistan Shaw -- Igbo-Ukwu brasses, one is of an elephant head, and those are about a thousand years old, and they prove that this was an autonomous African tradition"

and what other evidence are u looking for? isnt that enough proof?

exotik:

so what evidence are u looking for exactly? igbo and ife dont dress alike, and do not have same facial marks. but this was what the curator had to say:

"It was so beautiful and wonderful that Fabrinus didn’t think it could have been made by an African. He thought it was of Greek or ancient European origin. He identified it with Poseidon, with the god of the sea. He identified the Kingdom of Ife with the lost Kingdom of Atlantis, and he wrote all if this up. And indeed, it was published in the illustrated London news over there in 1910.   What happened in order to disprove all if this, was over there where those people are, two small brasses excavated in 1939 by Taistan Shaw -- Igbo-Ukwu brasses, one if of an elephant head, and those are about a thousand years old, and they prove that this was no autonomous African tradition"

and what other evidence are u looking for? isnt that enough proof?

. . . meaning that Frobenius thought that these were European brasses.  Then, even earlier-dated sculptures were found at Igbo-Ukwu, proving that Africans in more locations than Ife (and Benin) had done bronze-casting, and at an earlier stage.  This does not mean a direct influence, but simply made the case for how the Ife art, realistic as it was, could have been easily produced by Africans.


What you are not seeming to understand is that what they refer to is the fact that bronze casting happened at multiple locations in the African continent.  It was the realism that stuck Europeans -- remember, they had already seen Benin bronzes, and knew that they were African. The Igbo-Ukwu bronzes were also impressive, but no one doubted their "Africanity."  It was how impressively realistic  and serene the Ife bronzes were that made it hard to believe that they had been produced by Africans.  The discovery of earlier (and at that time, thought to be contemporary) bronze-casting proved that Africans could have produced this art. 

lol, lakal, since u are now quoting yourself, allow me to quote myself also.

ok. so igbo-ukwu influenced ife.

If the curator wanted to say that Igbo-Ukwu was the direct progenitor of Ife art (and there are no sources to my knowledge that claim this), why wouldn't they just say so directly, as in "Igbo-Ukwu's art was the direct ancestor of the pieces we see here?"  They aren't Nigerians, and so would have no qualms in saying so.

exotik:

lol, lakal, since u are now quoting yourself, allow me to quote myself also.

I posted my reply to that quote already. What is your point? If you haven't made it by now, stop trying.

The reason for why Ife art perplexed Europeans, from the UK Guardian's review of the "Kingdom of Ife" exhibit:

For European artists a century ago, African sculpture was powerful precisely because it did not conform to the smooth idea of beauty that Picasso's generation had been brought up on – ideas that went back to classical Greece. But they had not seen the art of Ife, a medieval city state that flourished from the 12th to 15th centuries in West Africa, trading across the Sahara with the Islamic Mediterranean world.

The superb sculpted heads in this exhibition – statues of sick people, monuments to warriors, royal heads whose strange vertical scars tell of the ceremonies of the court – were first rediscovered in quantity in an amazing find on a building site in the modern Nigerian city of Ife in 1938. This art was so different and unexpected, so "un-African", that one of its first students thought it must be the lost art of Atlantis.

But these works were not Greek, let alone from Atlantis. The faces that gaze coolly past you from these cases are challenging and formidable in their beauty. And they are disturbing to anyone who has any lingering belief in the uniqueness of European art. Sculptors in Ife imitated the human face as accurately and sensitively as any Greek, and matched the Greek feeling for harmony, balance and proportion.

nah, he didnt think they were european brasses, he knew they were african but thought they were european influenced. but the igbo-ukwu brasses which were much older, proved they were of african tradition.

exotik:

nah, he didnt think they were european brasses, he knew they were african but thought they were european influenced. but the igbo-ukwu brasses which were much older, proved they were of african tradition.

Frobenius thought that they were from a lost Greek colony (Europeans) or at least Atlantean, since they matched or even surpassed the European Classical works in their "classic-ness." That is the real difference between the Ife bronzes and other African art traditions.

It's just like how Great Zimbabwe was thought to be the city of the Queen of Sheba because it far surpassed what Europeans thought Africans were capable of, and challenged European engineering.

lol, how can he think they were european when they dont even look european. he knew they were african but thought it was european-influenced. that is, africans would not have had the technology to make such an art without europeans. so they doubted that the technology was not indigenous . . . but the igbo-ukwu brasses which were more older, older than european contact with this part of africa, proved it was indigenous, and that europeans had nothing to do with it.

exotik:

lol, how can he think they were european when they dont even look european. he knew they were african but thought it was european-influenced. that is, africans would not have had the technology to make such an art without european. so they doubted that the technology was not indigenous . . . but the igbo-ukwu brasses which were more older, older than european contact with this part of africa. proved it was indigenous, and that europeans had nothing to do with it.

It sounds silly to us now, but that was how Europeans thought. [b]Look [/b]at the Ife bronzes.  Even now, when non-Africans see them for the first time, they are blown away by the level of sophistication.  As an educator, I have seen this many times . . . people don't know what to think of them.

They realized that the art was found [b]in [/b]Africa, but they thought that it was not [b]of [/b]Africa.  Especially since the artworks were excavated, (And to them even though it wasn't true), no one had any answers to what they were or where they came from, they could be claimed to be the work of Europeans, or at least non-Africans.  When trying to colonize a people and claim that they were uncivilized savages, it wouldn't do to have these barbarians capable of greater things than your own people.

It is very similar to Great Zimbabwe.  Since it was abandoned, the local Shona people could be bypassed as the logical creators of the city, and the creation attributed to a non-African source.

lol, i am not saying they are not sophisticated, or that they are not breath-taking. all im saying is that fabrinus knew they were african but thought they were european-influenced. even the bini arts, were thought at a point to be made by the portuguese because europeans thought africans were not capable of such a technology. so that was why fabrinus identified them with greek and ancient european tribe. but the igbo-ukwu brasses which were found much later disproved all that because they were way older than european contact. so that was what the curator was pointing out and why those two igbo pieces were placed along ife pieces --- to disprove fabrinus assumptions, that they were not euro-influenced but indigenous.

exotik:

lol, i am not saying they are not sophisticated, or that they are not breath-taking. all im saying is that fabrinus knew they were african but thought they were european-influenced. even the bini arts, were thought at a point to be made by the portuguese because europeans thought africans were not capable of such a technology. so that was why fabrinus identified them with greek and ancient european tribe. but the igbo-ukwu brasses which were found much later disproved all that because they were way older than european contact. so that was what the curator was pointing out and why those two igbo pieces were placed along ife pieces --- to disprove fabrinus assumptions, that they were not euro-influenced but indigenous.

Frobenius did not originally think that they were African (made by Africans).  That is an established fact.


In relation to your other points: Igbo-Ukwu's art has been dated between the 9th and 11th Centuries, Ife's between the 12th and 15th Century, both predating modern European contact with West Africa, that has never been challenged.

Benin's art was extremely sophisticated, and in many areas, the Benin Empire challenged European's assumptions about Africa.  However, the stylized form of Benin art, and its differences from European artistic styles placed it firmly as African -- now, Europeans doubted African's capability to produce the bronze to be sure.  In addition, it would be hard to doubt the veracity of Benin art since European writers attested to many aspects of Benin life.

Ife's art differed because of its naturalism, which was thought to be a European classical concept.  Frobenius had a very hard time accepting any African connection, and this was made easier because naturalistic bronzes were not still being made in the 20th Century (However bronze casting still continued to be made in the stylized tradition, in connection with the Ogboni society).


And finally, yes that was the curator's point.  That's all I have said in this thread.

so what exactly did fabrinus think that was a fact that should even be taken seriously? he saw some african arts, he was so overwhelmed and likened it to arts of greece. but when there was nothing to prove how greece would have influenced ife, he then thought it must have been a lost mythical euro island that sunk somewhere along the coast of nigeria, and the survivors migrated to ife to produce the art? isnt that plain ret@rded? im sure the ooni must have also called him a ret@rd in yoruba for making such a claim.

anyway, i think the reason why the museum placed the two igbo pieces along those of ife is to help further disprove fabrinus ret@rded assumptions. and since the igbo-ukwu ones are older, it makes it easier to believe that ife was influenced by igbo and not by some greek tribe from a lost mythical euro island.

exotik:

so what exactly did fabrinus think that was a fact that should even be taken seriously? he saw some african arts, he was so overwhelmed and likened it to arts of greece. but when there was nothing to prove how greece would have influenced ife, he then thought it must have been a lost mythical euro island that sunk somewhere along the coast of nigeria, and the survivors migrated to ife to produce the art? isnt that plain ret@rded? im sure the ooni must have also called him a ret@rd in yoruba for making such a claim.

anyway, i think the reason why the museum placed the two igbo pieces along those of ife is to help further disprove fabrinus ret@rded assumptions. and since the igbo-ukwu ones are older, it makes it easier to believe that ife was influenced by igbo and not by some greek tribe from a lost mythical euro island.

That was exactly how it happened, crazy as it sounds.  It's not only Nigerians who can make up fables.

And yes, the museum put other African art work up, such as Igbo-Ukwu, to show that this was not an isolated event.  If you paid attention, you would also notice two bronze statues (the "Tsoede" statues) that were found in Nupe territory but thought to have been linked to Ife.

But you're missing the point. . . stop trying to ascribe the genius seen here to someone else's influence and just appreciate it for what it is.  We will never know what truly prompted the creation of these artworks, which are one of a kind and will never again be replicated.

ok,  i agree!

but the "naturalism" of ife art that you keep talking about are just some pieces depicting the ooni (i think), and those may have been done by artists who preferred the natural look to the "abstract" look coz like i said earlier, art is also influenced by the individuality of the artist.

however, naturalism was not only depicted in ife art, i think ife just had more pieces of that nature in the british museum.  but most of the other ife pieces are quite abstract.

Lagos
National Museum of Lagos Head of Terracotta- Ife



Lagos
National Museum of Lagos Head- Frontal - terracotta - Owo

exotik:

ok,  i agree!

but the "naturalism" of ife art that you keep talking about are just some pieces depicting the ooni (i think), and those may have been done by artists who preferred the natural look to the "abstract" look coz like i said earlier, art is also influenced by the individuality of the artist.

however, naturalism was not only depicted in ife art, i think ife just had more pieces of that nature in the british museum.  but most of the other ife pieces are quite abstract.

Owo had a naturalistic tradition as well, and Benin art started as a more naturalsitic form, moving towards the stylized look.

It's true that most of the Ife bronzes and terracottas are though to represent royalty, but not all are of Oonis.

Interestingly enough, naturalistic and more "stylized" art flourished at the exact same time, and even excavated in the same vicinity.  The naturalism seems to have just been a preference by certain artists and was in favor for some period of time.