Mr--Why:


I am not obsessed with "organized religion" as I prefer Reason and Spirituality over that anytime any day.

You spoke my mind.

if you have read the bible extensively from cover to cover you will find out that worshiping idols is the ultimate sin that does not sit too well with God, your land will be pillaged constantly. you will never find peace. you will be inundated with turmoil. there will be lots of suffering. does this all sound familiar ? AFRICA right ? the garden of initial civilization. well this is what happens when you start using humans as sacrifice and start carving out gods to worship. the obatalas, sangos, oyas, mamiwater, juju, voodoo etc etc. colonization, slavery, unfair trade, etc etc ? these are our enemies looting and pillaging us. it is all scriptural and prophetic.

WRONG!

Egyptian civilization was not abrahamic.

Nubian civilization was not Abrahamic.

The Ghana was not Abrahamic.

The Kingdom of Benin was not Abrahamic.

Kanem-Bornu empire was not Abrahamic.

Dahomey was not Abrahamic(although it apparently practiced a more violent ATR)

The Serer Kingdoms were not Abrahamic. (Serer religion is monotheistic, no sacrifice, did not believe in slavery)

Great Zimbabwe was not Abrahamic.

Darfur was not Abrahamic.

Zulu Kingdom was not Abrahamic.

The Nok civilization was not Abrahamic.

I just leasted at least 11 African civilizations that were not practicing religions of Abrahamic origin, and yet they were highly successful, with the first 4 being so successful that they INSPIRED the Europeans to travel the world in search of the great wealth they heard of in these African nations. The state of California is named after a legendary African Queen Califa who is said to have commanded an army of women.

It is also important to note that there are several African religions which only believe in ONE God, and have NO idols. Furthermore, most polytheistic African religions believe in one God that can only be reached in the forms his spirit on Earth, because God is too powerful to be concerned with the daily lives of humans. This is not much different than the Christian belief, esp. amongst Catholics, that Saints work on behalf of God and have special ability to intercede on God's behalf, or the protestant belief that one must pray to Jesus to reach God.

exotik:

^^
lol, misconceived or right on point? i know what you are going through whether you admit it or not.

ok since you have given me a third chance to hit the nail on the head, here it is:

you are interested in learning more and if possible reverting in your ancestors religion, and from what you have written so far, i guess it is IFA. but since you have a christian background that has demonized IFA as “idol worshipping” through the ages, the only way to validate your interest in IFA is to start questioning the motives of christianity in our society and you just added islam as jara since nigeria also has a huge muslim population. then after getting all the answers you already know from the internet, that there is nothing wrong with IFA,  you will “quietly” revert to worshipping IFA, or at least in your heart.

Your effort wasn't too bad but whilst you were initially swimming close to the answer you suddenly sank lol.

I generally ask questions not to be a pain but because that's how I learn and to gather a plethora of thoughts (good or bad).
Well I never came here to seek validation or create a revolution. . in fact before creating this thread I anticipated abuse however I just wanted to undertsand why our former gods are considered by and large "wrong" or "false".
There is so many bad connotations attached to traditional religions but why must they be considered in one frame, if they were truly bad or unsustainable then like with Christinaity (for example) they could have undergone reformation.

I do have a Christian background and my parents wanted or assumed I was going to be one. I tried to be a Christian for their sake, then for God's sake. . . that didn't work so for a while I pretended to be one but I couldn't keep up with the pretense and eventually came out of the closet - so to speak. . .
I explained to my parents that spirituality isn't hereditary and just because they are Christians doesn't mean naturally I will become one just like they had rejected their own parents gods.  I understand they would not give me something which they believe is unprofitable to me but I didn't want to accept a religion that was "chosen" for me rather I'd prefer to go on my own spiritual journey just like they had done.

You are correct, I do have an interest in Ifa but you are wrong in assuming it was the religion of my ancestors. I was serious when I stated I wasn't planning to pick up from where my ancestors left (like I said I don't believe spirituality is hereditary), but I have an interest for all religious bodies, but if I was to commit I don't want to pick and mix from each faith nor do I want to enter any faith half-heartedly.

I withold from reverting because as I have said many times I don't believe religion is herediatry and if I didn't want to be a Christian soley based on the fact that my parents were then I really would be kicking myself in the butt by adopting the religions of my grand parents if based primarily on genealogy.
Secondly, I want to make sure I feel compatible with a faith and lastly in all honesty I believe that I am courting romantic notions about traditional religions because I haven't experienced them first hand . . it's like children wishing they were adults and once they finally enter adulthood they are hit with the realities that comes with that transition.

you just added islam as jara since nigeria also has a huge muslim population.

I was talking about the eclipsing of native beliefs so of course I had to include Islam, even though that is not my background it still fit's into the equation of my hypothesis.



P.S the clip was beautiful thanks for posting and offering a translation.

BlackLibya, I am so glad you highlighted that the concept of "one God" wasn't solely a European or Arab concept. . . you are right, certain African religions held onto that concept too.

I appreciate the information you rendered thank you, now I must go and do my own research.

obo_man:

@ OP, quite a few things are wrong with our indigenous gods,


1,  Would you like to go inside the forest Unclad carrying a calabash ( a form of sacrifice) to appease the gods? You then notice one dirty old babalawo drooling by the corner.

2,  Their demand for human sacrifice

3,  labelling innocent kids and old women witches and wizards.

4,  Consistent sacrifice,  Imagine a poor man with just few livestock, and he is required to make sacrifice to the gods to get rid of of 'evil spirit',

5,  the list is endless,  I can go on and on

Having said that, these gods are man-made. Every thing that you could think of that is wrong with man is wrong with gods ( all religion included, including the imported ones from Arabs and white)

I'm sure those rites are not practiced by all.

. . . like I said in my introduction, there were so many gods in Nigeria . . . yet all of them were made redundant and labelled "false". . .just like that. .they are all unworthy idols? if we were even seeking a "right God" why couldn't we endorse one from the countless gods we have instead of a foreign God because we sure as hell won't pick an Israelite or Arab to be a president of Nigeria when we have so many potential candidates within our country.

Okay so if animists never had a similitude or a tangible depiction of god(s) would that have made traditional beliefs "right"?
If animists had written their faiths in text long before the Euros etc would that have qualified those faiths?
If traditionalist had practiced monotheism would that have made their god the "one true God"?

though God and Christ are supreme and above all as both signified love in its epitome, yet there's human sacrifice in all religion, In God's eyes and mind, Abraham sacrificed his son, another person, either Gideon ( remember, but after he won a war) sacrificed his daughter. Then the Ultimate and last Sacrifice Jesus Christ.

There has always been human sacrifice, but after Jesus, God command to stop all sacrifice, even of chicken, Blood of Jesus is meant to be the one and only last blood to poured as sacrifice, period.

to this, traditional gods are taboo, yet we still misunderstand the christian faith as each one of us has his or her own scripture and the way he or she believes it. to me, the answer to all religion is: BE TRUTHFUL TO YOURSELF AND LIVE AND LET LIVE

emofine,

lol,@ sank but it is ok, maybe then i will see olokun at the bottom of the sea and that would be awesome.

however,  i never said IFA was your ancestor’s religion, i said i guess because that was what you wrote about. but of course you came here to seek validation because the mere fact that you came asking questions mean you need answers, and answers validate or invalidate what you already know/or suspect.

and since you are no longer a christian, and from your interest in indigenous God(s), it is clear you are not an atheist either! and now that you are out of the closet, it is obvious your heart is leading you somewhere and you are seeking  guidance through any means you can lay our hands on, and the internet is one of them

and that is why i dont believe you are seeking knowledge (good or bad) just for “knowing sake” because what is the purpose of gathering information if you have no intention to use it for yourself, or at least spread it to others?

so you can join in singing the chorus before your heart leads you to the right place.

ma’heko de, ma ghi ya agbon ru’le oo
ma’heko de, ma ghi ya agbon ru’le
ma’heko de, ma ghi ya agbon ru’le oo
ma’heko de, ma ghi ya agbon ru’le

repeat 5x before you go to bed. goodnyt

BlackLibya, I am so glad you highlighted that the concept of "one God" wasn't solely a European or Arab concept. . . you are right, certain African religions held onto that concept too.

Of course! There are even some that say Arabs were originally blacks. At least, a large number of them, some of the documents contradict with what I read on the Serer, Medieval Ghana, and Moroccan peoples, but its still interesting to read.

Check it out when u get a chance

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-original-black-african-arabs-of-arabia-part-1-ogu-eji-ofo-annu/

I think you would find the Serer of Senegal to be interesting also, they are among one of the few groups in western Africa to still mostly practice their traditional religion. Some guy on wikipedia has done alot of research into them, but he's a little biased you'll pick up. Still good reading, and he sources everything.

and for those arguing whether human sacrifice is a bad thing or not
didnt God or whoever send his only begotten son to die for us, and the life jesus was sacrificed by having some romans nail him to a cross? isnt that human sacrifice?  and isn’t that reason we are supposedly saved today, if we would just believe that he sacrificed the life of his only son for us?
lol, i don go sleep o before i go tok the one wey pass me.

DEY ARE NOT ENDORSED BY oyimbo.lol. dey re fetish,sacriligious and hethen accordn 2 dem

BlackLibya:

WRONG!

Egyptian civilization was not abrahamic.

Nubian civilization was not Abrahamic.

The Ghana was not Abrahamic.

The Kingdom of Benin was not Abrahamic.

Kanem-Bornu empire was not Abrahamic.

Dahomey was not Abrahamic(although it apparently practiced a more violent ATR)

The Serer Kingdoms were not Abrahamic. (Serer religion is monotheistic, no sacrifice, did not believe in slavery)

Great Zimbabwe was not Abrahamic.

Darfur was not Abrahamic.

Zulu Kingdom was not Abrahamic.

The Nok civilization was not Abrahamic.

I just leasted at least 11 African civilizations that were not practicing religions of Abrahamic origin, and yet they were highly successful, with the first 4 being so successful that they INSPIRED the Europeans to travel the world in search of the great wealth they heard of in these African nations. The state of California is named after a legendary African Queen Califa who is said to have commanded an army of women.

It is also important to note that there are several African religions which only believe in ONE God, and have NO idols. Furthermore, most polytheistic African religions believe in one God that can only be reached in the forms his spirit on Earth, because God is too powerful to be concerned with the daily lives of humans. This is not much different than the Christian belief, esp. amongst Catholics, that Saints work on behalf of God and have special ability to intercede on God's behalf, or the protestant belief that one must pray to Jesus to reach God.

also the prosperous Haussa Bakwai in its early days, The Yoruba Kingdoms before the colonisers came, The Igbo Kingdom of Nri (Odinani), a place where slaves were set free from their bondage, The Bamana Empire, etc.


my friends, there is no shame in God-idolatory. we have to stop being inspired by this false missionary-inspired misconception. The idols are just[i] representations [/i] of the God. the rock/wood idols are themselves not worshipped, but what they represent is worshipped. after all, i bet each and everyone one of you think of an image of God while praying. one CANNOT worship thin air and feel devotion towards it at the same time. such a prayer is namesake FALSE DEVOTION, which is how muslims pray.The idols help us to feel that soul-devotion towards the Gods and help us to visualise the Gods. We humans are materialistic in nature and thererfore we express ourselves to the Gods the way we think,i.e., materialistically - through idols.

Now why have many Gods

BECAUSE, We Pagan peoples believe in the plurality of God, which the monotheists rigidly refuse. We DO believe in a Supreme God, HOWEVER, if there is 1 God, there can also be many Gods existing at the same time. This has something to do with the balancing of the forces which is one of the basic laws of nature. 1 God cannot exist without the many Gods, and the many Gods cannot exist without the Supreme God.
also it allows for Greater devotion, e.g. a farmer will pray to the Rain God becuse he see God in his creation (rain), which helps farmer survive. thereore, the farmer can concentrae his full gratitude and devotion towards God through its forms. everyone sees God differently.


Which God? Obatala or Zeus or Chukwu or Saarki Aljann

Now this is a complex matter of which i cant reveal some dertails here on Nairaland due to it controversial nature. this bitter-truth shall be reveal only when the time and place is right. However a basic sketch:

At the beginning of humanity we had many tribes, all united, yet different. All were Pagan ofcouse (even the early Hebrew Canaanites). each Pagan religion was/is similar at its base ideas, pantheonn structure,m nature worship/respect, afterlife, etc. Now the reason why for E.g. Yoruba have different name and appearance from say Egyptian Supreme God, is because that was how God revealed himself to Yoruba and Egyptian respectively. Therefore Yoruba cannot worship Ra or Zeus, but must worship God in Olódùmarè form[b] only[/b], even though all 3 are the same Supreme Creator God. This is the fulfillment of ones duty towards self and tribe. greater satisfacton.

This is why before christianity, there were NO RELIGIOUS CONVERSIONS and RELIGIOUS WARS, because everyone knew that inspite of being different, they all worshipped SAME GOD(s).



[size=24pt]THE GODS FOR NIGERIA.[/size]

PAGAN  9JA:


also the prosperous Haussa Bakwai in its early days, The Yoruba Kingdoms before the colonisers came, The Igbo Kingdom of Nri (Odinani), a place where slaves were set free from their bondage, The Bamana Empire, etc.


my friends, there is no shame in God-idolatory. we have to stop being inspired by this false missionary-inspired misconception. The idols are just[i] representations [/i] of the God. the rock/wood idols are themselves not worshipped, but what they represent is worshipped. after all, i bet each and everyone one of you think of an image of God while praying. one CANNOT worship thin air and feel devotion towards it at the same time. such a prayer is namesake FALSE DEVOTION, which is how muslims pray.The idols help us to feel that soul-devotion towards the Gods and help us to visualise the Gods. We humans are materialistic in nature and thererfore we express ourselves to the Gods the way we think,i.e., materialistically - through idols.

I believe many of those idols are symbolic. The cross poses as a symbol in Christianity.

The Bible was said to be "inspired by God" when man wrote it.

Thus is it not possible that some of these physical representations of a deity(ies) were god-inspired also when etched out by man. . .

We are human beings not celestial beings and so the means in which we mere mortals comprehend and interpret god is largely via concrete means.

The Bible/Quaran is laid out in text which of course is a means of communication. Art is also a form of communication and despite the fact indigenous religions wasn't captured in a textual format  it was however translated via art.

I like the point you made about pagans not worshiping the raw materials of the idols but the essence and what they ultimately embodied.

Furthermore I believe everybody want's a tangible piece of God.

This is why before christianity, there were NO RELIGIOUS CONVERSIONS and RELIGIOUS WARS, because everyone knew that inspite of being different, they all worshipped SAME GOD(s).

What about those who may have quite possibly married outside of their ethnicity at the time, don't they "convert" to the religion of their spouse?

I also wonder (well at least concerning your own faith) is there any initiation process more so for outsiders who are looking to get in? or is it exclusive to your ethnic group?

emofine:

Thus is it not possible that some of these physical representations of a deity(ies) were god-inspired also when etched out by man. . .

However you will notice that miraculously, not a S-I-N-G-L-E Pagan religion in this world has ever had a founder recorded or any founder at all, for that matter! strange isnt it.

emofine:

Furthermore I believe everybody want's a tangible piece of God.

emofine:

What about those who may have quite possibly married outside of their ethnicity at the time, don't they "convert" to the religion of their spouse?

I also wonder (well at least concerning your own faith) is there any initiation process more so for outsiders who are looking to get in? or is it exclusive to your ethnic group?

no there is no concept of conversion in the Indigenous faths nor is there any question of gender division/discrimination, whereby one has to convert to husband's faith or the opposite. Pagan religions heavily rely on the human sense of identity, culture and blood. wheras monotheists on the other hand, always look for assimilation.mixed blood peoples can accept neither since they are not part of any "group". this one of the bitter realities of life and one that must be accepted. Infact people must start trying to keep a grip on their intimate desires, since interracial marriages are mostly resultant of love/intimate attraction. One must maintain a sense of final duty towards tribe/ethnic group. temptation is bad and one must make certain sacrfices for the sake of society.

also you will notice an important trait of monotheistic islam and christianity. by assimilating all people of the world, they seek to make truetheir myth that everyone is descended from a common source (or as they say, adam n eve), because once everyone is asimilated, everyone will share the same blood and as a result, a common ancestry, thereby proving their fake story and gaining more believers into their faiths and at the same time, destroying cultures and identities of people.

My faith is inclusive within my own group. neither do i seek  converts (apart from reconverts from my own tribe), nor do I wish to convert. this prevents religious conflict and helps save the identity of my people.

However as a fellow brother in this world, I can always help you to get into the religion of your people. by doing so, I do good to humanity and religion.

All we Pagans are aginst are, are the oppressive, foregin and fanatical monotheistic religions. thats all.

^^^

Very interesting write-up. . .Pagan9ja, do you regard your god as equal with other gods from traditional beliefs?

Do you think that all these other pagan gods exist in harmony with one another? i.e. not in opposition such as Jesus and Allah

^^^^


yes all corresponding Pagan Gods are equal.

E.g.

Creator Gods: Zeus = AmunRa= Olodumare = Saarki Aljiin = Chukwu = Brahma = Pachacamac Viracocha = Great Spirit (Wakan Tanka) = Mbombo = Yahweh (Pagan Canaanite) = Ngai, etc

Fertility Gods: Ala = Chiconahui = Baal = Brigid = Amun = Adonis = Mama Quilla = Anjea = Parvati = Atahensic = Freyja = Anahita = Beiwei, etc

friend, GOD was/is under no obligation to save any human being from destruction / HIS righteous wrath for sin (Rom 3:23 & Rom 6:23).  It and HE is a Wonder that HE, The Lord JESUS CHRIST, sacrificed HIMSELF in the place of many undeserving humans. 

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." -Rom 5:8 

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" - Col 2:13

I tell you, “The Lord [is] gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, And of great mercy.” - Pss 145:8 (John 3:16-17).  "As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him."  - Psa_18:30   

I tell you also, There is only One GOD,  - "For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens." - Psa_96:5, "The idols of the heathen are silver and gold, the work of men's hands." -Psa_135:15
-------
"I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:" - Isa_45:5

"Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me." - Isa_45:21.  LORD ---> JEHOVAH, YAHWEH, JESUS CHRIST The Lord.

^barking.

what has the above got to do with anything discussed here

^^ human beings don't bark by nature. Compare my initial response to the original poster's inquiries (i.e. injustice associated with the method of the spread of The Gospel in Africa, etc) and perhaps you'll understand.

I am declaring:

", JEHOVAH, HE is GOD, YAHWEH, HE is GOD".  "For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone." - Psa 86:10

I am very happy that our people are starting to wake up and question the brainwashing we received during the colonization. In regards to human sacrifice in our traditional religions, this answer from the Odinani blog explains alot:

"Human sacrifice is something that has been observed in all societies in one form or another. There are three main kinds of human sacrifice. The first and most prominent involves sacrifice as a form of capital punishment. The second was the sacrifice of slaves/P.O.W’s at special ceremonies such as royal funerals  or festivals. The third type is a ritual murder in order to gain money or power.  The last two are condemned by every society on the planet.  Omenala condones capital punishment."

http://odinanilawsofnature./f-a-q/


For the record, human sacrifice is all over the Bible, in both Testaments:


John 1:29 ESV

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! ("Lamb of God"is a euphemism for sacrificial individual!)

Judges 11:31 ESV

Then whatever comes out from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the Ammonites shall be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.” (It turned out to be his daughter)

Exodus 13:11-16 ESV

“When the Lord brings you into the land of the Canaanites, as he swore to you and your fathers, and shall give it to you, you shall set apart to the Lord all that first opens the womb. All the firstborn of your animals that are males shall be the Lord's. Every firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. Every firstborn of man among your sons you shall redeem. And when in time to come your son asks you, ‘What does this mean?’ you shall say to him, ‘By a strong hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt, from the house of slavery. For when Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the Lord killed all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man and the firstborn of animals. Therefore I sacrifice to the Lord all the males that first open the womb, but all the firstborn of my sons I redeem.’

Exodus 13:1-2 ESV

The Lord said to Moses, “Consecrate to me all the firstborn. Whatever is the first to open the womb among the people of Israel, both of man and of beast, is mine.”

Micah 6:7 ESV

Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?”

http://www.openbible.info/topics/human_sacrifice

HISchild:

^^ human beings don't bark by nature. Compare my initial response to the original poster's inquiries (i.e. injustice associated with the method of the spread of The Gospel in Africa, etc) and perhaps you'll understand.

I am declaring:

", JEHOVAH, HE is GOD, YAHWEH, HE is GOD".  "For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone." - Psa 86:10

You FOOL! what do you get by worshipping this foreign God!!!!!!

YHWH (YAHWEH) was a Pagan Semitic Deity of the Hebrews and the consort of Godess Asherah. YOU XTIANS CORRUPT EVERYTHING.

If you feel it is right to insult and call names, that is unfortunate. My GOD, JEHOVAH, The Lord JESUS CHRIST has given me an indescribable gift(s) in HIS goodness, kindness, mercy and magnanimity.  By HIS grace, this is not an intellectual exercise for me.  "Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ," - Phil 3:8

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." - Matt 5:22

goodness, kindness, mercy, grace. oooooooooh i am an angel.

Our indigenous Divinities represent  the most genuine form of  spirituality the world over.  Furthermore, African spirituality pre-dates any form of theology, theosophy or mythology anywhere in the world.

Amujale:

Our indigenous Divinities represent  the most genuine form of  spirituality the world over.  Furthermore, African spirituality pre-dates any form of theology, theosophy or mythology anywhere in the world.

The irony is quite mind boggling. . . the people who demonized our practices/customs are now generously selling it back to us

i like the concept of this thread,

i believe it is very wrong for the europeans to aint our indigenous religions and customs as evil and diabolic while they glorify gods like zeus, ares, aphrodite, hermes, athena and thor in their mythology even in their movies

@ emofine, am happy that you came up with such an intelligent concept, i am glad to tell you that i am a christian and i believe in the one and only true God, the father of Jesus Christ but that doesnt mean that we africans didnt know that there was a God we just had a different explanation or concept of who he is

even paul in the book of acts when moving through the greek city of athens did not paint their religion as evil but understood that it came out of human philosophy and that inner desire in man to find God and solve the mysteries of the universe, and apostle paul respected that and directed their philosophy into the right direction instead of looking down on them

i believe the way we see our traditional religions in africa and even in other parts of the world like south america is very wrong, we should simply substitute our former allegiances to the true God not because some white faced folks introduced them to us but because we are lookin forward to the salvation of God,

the europeans have succeeded in brainwashing us through their eurocentric philosophy, because of that we tend to run away from every aspect of our culture which is very wrong,

E-Engineer:

i like the concept of this thread,

i believe it is very wrong for the europeans to aint our indigenous religions and customs as evil and diabolic while they glorify gods like zeus, ares, aphrodite, hermes, athena and thor in their mythology even in their movies

That's an interesting observation. . .what's ironic is that in certain traditional religion(s) such as Ifa, there are some parallels between the faculties/characters of some of the deities yet Greek mythology is often celebrated neither looked down upon.

Unfortunately I've observed that whenever I compare Traditional religions with ones from Europe (for example) I've often found myself sieving for similar concepts found in Nigeria/African ones and whilst trying to legitimize native religion I think I have subconsciously held religion(s) from places such as Europe as the ideal because I deemed it vindicating when I found a match in Africa and that is erroneous of me because even if Ifa etc had no parallels to the Greek gods etc I really don't think it is a default in itself

@ emofine, am happy that you came up with such an intelligent concept, i am glad to tell you that i am a christian and i believe in the one and only true God, the father of Jesus Christ but that doesnt mean that we africans didnt know that there was a God we just had a different explanation or concept of who he is

even paul in the book of acts when moving through the greek city of athens did not paint their religion as evil but understood that it came out of human philosophy and that inner desire in man to find God and solve the mysteries of the universe, and apostle paul respected that and directed their philosophy into the right direction instead of looking down on them

i believe the way we see our traditional religions in africa and even in other parts of the world like south america is very wrong, we should simply substitute our former allegiances to the true God not because some white faced folks introduced them to us but because we are lookin forward to the salvation of God,

the europeans have succeeded in brainwashing us through their eurocentric philosophy, because of that we tend to run away from every aspect of our culture which is very wrong,

I'm a little confused about the rest of your statement. . .on the one hand you say it was wrong that our native faiths/gods were demonized, then you say that we should substitute them for "the one true God" (the very statement that inspired me to create this topic) yet in the same breath you say again that brainwashing caused us to leave our customs

I don't really know where you stand or maybe I'm not understanding your point

i believe the way we see our traditional religions in africa and even in other parts of the world like south america is very wrong, we should simply substitute our former allegiances to the true God not because some white faced folks introduced them to us but because we are lookin forward to the salvation of God,

the europeans have succeeded in brainwashing us through their eurocentric philosophy, because of that we tend to run away from every aspect of our culture which is very wrong,

Is this not a "eurocentric philosophy"?

PAGAN  9JA:

^^^^


yes all corresponding Pagan Gods are equal.

E.g.

Creator Gods: Zeus = AmunRa= Olodumare = Saarki Aljiin = Chukwu = Brahma = Pachacamac Viracocha = Great Spirit (Wakan Tanka) = Mbombo = Yahweh (Pagan Canaanite) = Ngai, etc

Fertility Gods: Ala = Chiconahui = Baal = Brigid = Amun = Adonis = Mama Quilla = Anjea = Parvati = Atahensic = Freyja = Anahita = Beiwei, etc

Pagan9JA I forgot to ask. . . do pagans observing the same religion assemble together in a particular congregation i.e Christians go to Church, Jews attend the Synagogue, Muslims meet at the Mosques etc. . . so do Pagans also have a place of worship?

Manufactured religions were created to appease the general public of their time; Romans created the Roman Catholic church to keep their peasants paying taxes - Muhammed created the Islamic movement to appease the Arabs from their philosophical domination from Rome.

Later, these same manufactured religions were to be used as a WEAPON of choice in an attempt to secure the abandonment traditional lives and customs all around the world; and sometimes it was a secondary WEAPON been used behind the barrel of a gun.

Destroying people's original philosophies and trying to replace it with fiction; also known as "Brainwashing".


These are the deceptive tactics that would involve imitation of the religious ideas and philosophies of their targeted audience coupled with inept persecution aimed at winning souls.

here is a typical exampleof how it works:

The Missionaries - god Against The Indians

Norman Lewis reveals the sinister method a group of missionaries (ex cathedra) employ in a case of what can only be described as pure EVIL.

There was an Indian community in the Amazon region called Panare that missionaries tried allsorts of ways to convert them to christianity but failed. The reason was simple, christianity uses some basic pricipals to stupify their audience namely:

* Sin
* Guilt
* Punishment
* Redemption/Salvation

But they had a problem, Panare linguistics doesnt have words that are equivalent to the above because they were content the way they lived; all the stories of that the bible could offer were received as mere entertainment. So, the missionaries forged a plan. Have you ever heard of the expression

"What have i done to deserve this; it wasnt me who killed Jesus"

Well if you havent, now you have because this was the story they were to go on and construct. The deduction was that  before the Indians could be made to accept repentance and salvation - both equally obscure concepts to the Panare - one had to give them something to feel guilty about. Hence, they published in excess of one thousand copies of the New Testaments that expressed that it was the Panare who killed Jesus.

Here is a few transcripts of that version:

The Panare killed Jesus Christ because they were wicked.

Let's kill Jesus Christ, said the Panare.

The Panare seized Jesus Christ.

The Panare killed in this way.

They laid a cross on the ground.

They fastened his hands and his feet

against the wooden beams, with nails.

They raised him straight up, nailed.

The man died like that, nailed.

Thus the Panare killed Jesus Christ



The New Testament continued to read:

God will burn you all,

burn all the animals, burn also the earth,

the heavens, absolutely everything.

He will burn also the Panare themselves.

God will exterminate the Panare by throwing them on the fire.

It is a huge fire.

I am going to hurl the Panare into the fire, said God.

,

God is good.

'Do you want to be roasted in the fire?' asks God.

'Do you have something to pay me with so that I won't roast you in the fire?

What is it you're going to pay me?'

Submission to the christian doctrine , the abandonment of their traditional lives and their customs was the price being demanded.

Again you can read for yourself:

The Missionaries: god Against the Indians by Norman Lewis

http://www.amazon.ca/Missionaries-God-Against-Indians/dp/0070376131

[flash=185,185]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOKtE2bGj_w[/flash]           [img]http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQXkiuWWHIS2VGNJMbBMaSDJH3JrUduKo0Pd1HtEf9l0F0IoEsh[/img]           [flash=185,185]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPXKuqLQ63o[/flash]

In 1795 the London Missionary Society dispatched missionaries to Tahiti. It was four years before any of them learned enough of the local language to be able to preach a sermon to a puzzled though sympathetic audience.

The Tahitians built houses for them, fed them, and provided them with servants galore, but after seven years not a single convert to Christianity had been gained.

In return, the missionaries reduced the local chief called Pomare to an alcoholic and then offered him backing in a war against other islands chiefs by supplying firearms.

Pomare would be backed in a war against the other island chiefs on the understanding that his victory would be followed by enforced conversion. Since Pomare was supplied with firearms to be used against his opponents, victory was assured. The whole nation was said to have been converted in a day.

It seems it was a common practice among the Christian missionaries. It is no wonder their so-called "holy" book is a FRAUD. An immitation of various philosophies which original contents have been falsified, and the motives behind its publication was based on political greed and power.

E-Engineer:

i like the concept of this thread,

i believe it is very wrong for the europeans to aint our indigenous religions and customs as evil and diabolic while they glorify gods like zeus, ares, aphrodite, hermes, athena and thor in their mythology even in their movies

this a very wrong misguided idea. The christians are against their ancient traditional gods such as Zeus, Hera, Apollo, Venus, etc. Infact, during the early days of christianity, thousands (or should i say, millions) of Temples, idols, books, etc, dedicated to theese Gods were destroyed, broken down, burnt, etc. It was only during around the 16th-19th century, that the european people started reviving the old tales, etc from a LITERARY, NOT RELIGIOUS point of view, in order to use the content of the rich ancient mythology that their ancestors destroyed, for their stories, etc, inspite of remaining christian. By now, ofcourse, it was already too late to return to the old Gods because it was almost a gap of 1500 yrs approx. and also most of the knowledge was lost. However, most importantly, christianity very cleverly ASSIMILATED ALL THE EUROPEAN TRIBES, such as the Saxons, Normans, Gauls, Britons, Jutes, Celts, Goths, etc., thereby the european people now lack any tribe or culture and are mixed. they can never TRULY revert to the old Gods. its just too late. christianity played its game well, in this stage. HOWEVER. all is not yet lost. for us tribal peoples, atleast.

emofine:

Pagan9JA I forgot to ask. . . do pagans observing the same religion assemble together in a particular congregation i.e Christians go to Church, Jews attend the Synagogue, Muslims meet at the Mosques etc. . . so do Pagans also have a place of worship?

dont Hindus go to temples didnt the Ancient Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, etc go to their respective temples The Zoroastrians have fire temples. however many Pagan peoples for e.g the Dayaks of South-East Asia, or the tribes of South America, many of us African tribes, etc, worship in sacred groves, usually located near forests, bush, etc. with nature, where we conduct our rituals. even those who use temples, sometimes conduct rituals in nature because such a prayer is true prayer whereby we are one with Gods creations. We Hausa peoples also worship in groves though I know some who worship in hutments where they conduct certain rituals, in some places.

generally speaking, it depends on what Pagan religion you are referring to OR in many cases what ritual is being done. there is no compulsion to prayer. it must come from your soul. we do not have weekly prayers like muslims on friday or christians on Sunday. it depends on the individual OR the occasion, festival, etc.

PAGAN  9JA:
dont Hindus go to temples didnt the Ancient Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, etc go to their respective temples The Zoroastrians have fire temples. however many Pagan peoples for e.g the Dayaks of South-East Asia, or the tribes of South America, many of us African tribes, etc, worship in sacred groves, usually located near forests, bush, etc. with nature, where we conduct our rituals. even those who use temples, sometimes conduct rituals in nature because such a prayer is true prayer whereby we are one with Gods creations. We Hausa peoples also worship in groves though I know some who worship in hutments where they conduct certain rituals, in some places.

generally speaking, it depends on what Pagan religion you are referring to OR in many cases what ritual is being done. there is no compulsion to prayer. it must come from your soul. we do not have weekly prayers like muslims on friday or christians on Sunday. it depends on the individual OR the occasion, festival, etc.

I'm intrigued.

this a very wrong misguided idea. The christians are against their ancient traditional gods such as Zeus, Hera, Apollo, Venus, etc. Infact, during the early days of christianity, thousands (or should i say, millions) of Temples, idols, books, etc, dedicated to theese Gods were destroyed, broken down, burnt, etc. It was only during around the 16th-19th century, that the european people started reviving the old tales, etc from a LITERARY, NOT RELIGIOUS point of view, in order to use the content of the rich ancient mythology that their ancestors destroyed, for their stories, etc, inspite of remaining christian. By now, ofcourse, it was already too late to return to the old Gods because it was almost a gap of 1500 yrs approx. and also most of the knowledge was lost. However, most importantly, christianity very cleverly ASSIMILATED ALL THE EUROPEAN TRIBES, such as the Saxons, Normans, Gauls, Britons, Jutes, Celts, Goths, etc., thereby the european people now lack any tribe or culture and are mixed. they can never TRULY revert to the old Gods. its just too late. christianity played its game well, in this stage. HOWEVER. all is not yet lost. for us tribal peoples, atleast

Interesting. . .

@emofine, am jst tryin to say dt d transitn to xtianity shld hv been more respectful, am of d opinion that christ is d way but i dont like d fact that we africans r scared of our culture, this is one of the major causes of our numerous problems in our continent. We africans hv dis mindset that we were evil barbarians and the so called gud white man came and rescued us 4rm evil because of that we accord all respect to evrything pale pink. I hope u undastand me, 4 example, u cant tell me that buddhism is evil or is morally bankrupt because of that a chinese christian convert wont run away 4rm evrytin ancient chinese thereby retaining any self respect dat he had. This is d same respect dat shld be accorded to african trad religion because they werent evil or cannibalistic but they simply arent the way to d ultimate salvation of our soul