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Stats: 1062383 members, 1234536 topics. Date: Thursday, 23 May 2013 at 05:01 AM
Poll: What is your opinion of tithe preachers.They genuinely believe it is required: 13% (35 votes)
They know it is not relevant to christianity but they still preach it for money: 21% (55 votes)
They are preaching the gospel truth: 28% (73 votes)
They are genuinely ignorant of the truth about biblical tithes.: 9% (25 votes)
They are just business men trying to make a dis honest living.: 27% (71 votes)
This poll has ended
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 8:45am On Apr 16, 2012|
Hello, if you believe the tithe should be shared with widows etc, why can't you give them some from your tithe directly? Seems to me some kind of bondage if it's so rigid it must go through a pastor.
I think we are all required to be good stewards as in that parable of the talents. It's our duty to make sure our monies are used for the right purpose.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by ProPastorChris: 3:08pm On Apr 16, 2012|
@ original OP
can you tell me using the scriptures God's original intention for commanding tithing in the OT?
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Pastor Kun(m): 3:17pm On Apr 16, 2012|
ProPastorChris: @ original OP
You would find the answer to your kweshion in deut 14:22-29, I would have loved to post the verses here but I am currently browsing with my phone. If you read it God's reasons are clearly stated there and the conditions for those reasons don't exist today. Neither is the tithe being preached today similar to the biblical version.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Pastor Kun(m): 3:20pm On Apr 16, 2012|
ProPastorChris: @ original OP
You may also wish to attempt to answer the kweshions raised in the OP as your fellow tithe merchants have been unable to even attempt the easiest of the kweshions.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Image123(m): 1:31am On Apr 18, 2012|
i want to state that it's not my joy or aim to go into endless discussion on tithe. Tithe does not take anyone into Heaven, neither does it disqualify anyone from Heaven. Due to requests from others apart from kunle is the reason why i've decided to reply to the OP. And please, each should prayerfully go and learn more on the issue of tithes instead of spreading and supporting anything and everything antitithe.
Questions Tithing Advocates Fail To Answer!This is vague and narrow minded. Questions have been answered times without number, poorly and excellently. If nobody answered the OP, maybe he failed to go to enough people.
Our modern day tithe teachers do not have intellectual honesty.Jesus said so, didn't He? His words are dearer and more authoritative to me than a thousand and one excellent antitithe arguments. He never argued against tithes, i follow Him.
If they take Matthew 23:23/Luke 11:42 as a command for New Testament Christians to tithe here are the questions they need to answer:Ask questions if you want, but do not hang them where they do not belong. BTW, Matthew 23:23/Luke 11:42 is not the foundation of tithing. It only comes up when deceivers force people not to tithe, by saying its nowhere in the NT.
1. According to Mishna and Flavious Josephus the 1st century Jews practicedChristians are not Judaists. What do you mean by according to Mishna and Josephus? you don't believe it or you do? Being the base for the Op, i must say that your lot are dishonest hypocrites. So you know that there are multiple tithes when it's convenient to know? But you go on acting like there is only one tithe later. You go on deceiving people to eat their tithes when you know that there are multiple tithes? many have shown kunle and his accomplices that there are multiple tithes but he'll ignore, then jump to another point then another, then come in another thread or pages after, telling a supposedly innocent ignorant tithe giver that he's supposed to eat his tithe, not give it to God. You've employed continual repeatition and advertisement of error to deceive the gullible sheep. your lot are a bunch of hypocritical losers, talk of intellectual dishonesty par excellence.
Let me briefly re-state that there are different tithes in the OT commands. i don't know if there are just 3 but permit me to give/explain 3 types that i know almost offhand.
a) The tithe given to Levites working in Jerusalem temple. This is the general one that most people know of today.
Num 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as a heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
This is the one that was brought to the storehouse. see below for example
Neh 13:12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries.
This tithe was for the TEMPLE WORKERS and their families.
Num 18:23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
Num 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
b) The tithes eaten by the tithe giver, with the poor and levites IN the Jerusalem. 'IN' is the operative word here.
Deu 12:17 Thou mayest NOT eat withIN thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:
Deu 12:18 But thou must eat them before the LORD thy God in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite that is within thy gates: and thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God in all that thou puttest thine hands unto.
Please note all the BOLDED in my replies for emphasis. Also see Deut 14v 23-26.
c) The tithe eaten within the house of the tithe giver, with the poor neighbours, levite neighbours etc. This one was not yearly but every three years.
Deu 26:12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat WITHIN thy gates, and be filled;
Deu 14:27 And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
Deu 14:28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
Deu 14:29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
The above is clear and simple to anyone who wants to sincerely and honestly learn. Incase any missed it and needs more clarification, let me use an example. Suppose i receive 20000 every year, a tenth should be 2000. I set apart the first tithe 2000 for the temple workers, another 2000 to be used by me to have fun with my family and poor friends, servants and levites. Every third year, i add another 2000 (making 6000 in the tithe year). this third tithe i make sure i give 2000 to levites, widows, orphans, underprivileged ones, strangers around me.
These are all like a school master. they didn't save them, giving doesn't save any body. It's not an issue of salvation. It was done to teach giving. It's like, for instance, teaching a child addition. Some use counters, some fingers and toes, but it's not forever. It's towards a goal/ And when the goal is reached, we're not under the law to continue using fingers and toes. But we give. It's not just enough to love God and ourselves. But love others, your neighbours and the poor around. It's ceremonial, the 1st century christians were not obliged to go to the temple or what not, or to offer heave or burnt offerings. But they continued to give, even to their spiritual leaders.
Philippians 4:18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odor of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well-pleasing to God.
This serves the same purpose. Some of the early christians went further like Paul to still observe temple rites.
Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
However, they bore it in mind that the temple rites you are pressing us for, were fadingand passing away.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
i'll split the answers so that they don't look cumbersome to read. You may wait for me to finish, i'm typing.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Image123(m): 2:00am On Apr 18, 2012|
2. Did the early Christians who did not own farms and cattle give 23% of their earned income to their Churches?i don't know where you get 23% from. From my simple understanding, a tithe is a tenth. A tenth is 10%, where you intellectuals make a tenth to be 23% is beyond my understanding, and i'm not interested in knowing. i'm okay with what the Bible says. God made it so simple that the majority will understand it. If you want to know though, the early christians may have given tithes, the Bible does not say that they did not. On the contrary, it is possible that they did, especially Jewish christians. The Jews were and are quite patriotic and heavily influenced by the law. There are biblical records of early christians who practised circumcision and preached it as a way of salvation. the epistles majorly corrected things that needed correction. Nobody 'çorrected' anybody saying don't give. Giving of all kinds is encouraged by God and His servants, and tithe is a type of giving. God is never, never, and NEVER going to punish anyone for giving tithes. No apostle or early christian ever spoke evil, or in bad light about tithing, or even the OT in general. Instead they regarded and respected the OT. Paul usually used it as defence for NT doctrines. ''As also saith the law'' brought weight and credence.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Image123(m): 2:22am On Apr 18, 2012|
3. Levitical tithes were yearly and it went to Levites according to theirWhat is levitical tithes? If you speak of tithes given to Levites, there are different Levites. there were those who work full time in Jerusalem according to courses/timetable. There were those who didn't. Levi was a tribe, and not all of them can work in the temple. there was tithe taken to Jerusalem and put in treasuries. there was also tithes shared WITHIN your gates. i've explained this in reply to question one.
Who are the Levites today? What sort of question is that? The Levites were set apart for God's service, to teach others God's ways in the various locations across Israel and to serve in the temple. They had no work, and that's a major reason why God gave them the tithe of Israel.
Num 18:21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
And remember, when i say Levites, i'm referring to the whole tribe of Levi which includes the priests, the porters, the Levites, the singers etc
Neh 12:47 And all Israel in the days of Zerubbabel, and in the days of Nehemiah, gave the portions of the singers [/b]and [b]the porters, every day his portion: and they sanctified holy things unto [b]the Levite[/b]s; and the Levites sanctified them unto the children of Aaron.
Anyone today that is set apart for God's work is fulfilling the same duty. It's no more restricted to a particular tribe or nation. there was a time when God wanted to use the firstborn sons of Israel for this, then latter He used the Levites. Now/Today, it's anyone. It does not have to be the house of Aaron or of Gershon. The same functions still apply, and the house of God still need to be taken care of. You see, god is greater than your ilk. You still want to keep us under the law where it's Levi or no other. But we are not under the law but under grace. It is grace and the cross that has put away the vail, and we do not all have to go to Jerusalem to worship God, but can now worship Him in Spirit and in TRUTH.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Image123(m): 2:28am On Apr 18, 2012|
4. How did the “NT Levites” take the 10% of the 10% to the “NT Priests”?
The same way it was done in the OT.
5. If the NT Pastor is the priest don’t we have to tithe to the ushers, choir,Who said the NT pastor is the priest? The NT pastor is the pastor, the spiritual leader, shepherd, overseer of the church that he pastors. Nobody tithes to the pastor, we tithe to God. the tithe is dropped usually in a box (tithe box,offering box) or bag, or container, not in the pastor's pocket or bank account. The pastor is not the priest so i'm not even wasting more time on this.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Image123(m): 2:49am On Apr 18, 2012|
6. Why does the Senior Pastor collect all tithes today and give salaries to theThis is wrong. the senior pastor does not own the tithe, God does. It's left to each church how they manage their tithe and offerings. But on the average, full time workers including senior pastors, have a stipulated salary given to them by church finance officer by month's end. There are also percentages of the collections dedicated for various other uses e.g church growth, evangelism, maintenance, charity, expansion, projects, instruments etc. If your church's senior pastor collects all tithes, well, that's your own proverbial "father's farm". You need to come out of your myopia and see how things are done in other places.
i guess your hypocritical grouse is that everybody that does something in church should be paid. You want them all to be paid but you don't want to give anything, how convenient. Not all that work for God were paid through tithes even in the OT. David worked for God, he composed a lot of songs and dedicated many things to God. Prophets worked for God, they were not paid through tithes. Anna worked in church too.
Luk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher: she was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity;
Luk 2:37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
Tithe was only paid to the tribe of Levi, that was the arrangement. Each church location today has their own arrangement. and differences of administration. If you want to be paid, by all means, go to the church where they'll pay you. Why complain, wail and discoúrage more than the 'bereaved'? Many are willing to give their time, strength and talent to God and His church for free. It all depends on the church's arrangement and agreement. Some will collect gardener and pay, some would rather ask for voluntary gardener. Some collect/pay for instrumentalist, some train them, some encourage members to go and learn. It's all administration. These are very little matters in God's kingdom. Not something to carry on the head and go from house to house, and thread to thread with.
Like i've said earlier, senior pastors, or overseers, or paid church workers usually have stipulated salaries they are paid. They do not 'collect everything for personal use'.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Image123(m): 2:53am On Apr 18, 2012|
7. In the OT the High Priests themselves did not tithe but why do our modern day prosperityPreachers are not high priests, they do not have to be stereotyped into doing the exact same thing. They don't offer burnt offerings, or sprinkle blood or kill bulls. Some have never seen the ashes of an heifer. Anyone who wants to tithe is free to irrespective of position, stop forcing people into your laws. God is not going to condemn anyone for giving.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Image123(m): 3:08am On Apr 18, 2012|
8. Regarding the festival tithe, do Christians need to go to Jerusalem to observe it as the Jews did? What is our Jerusalem now? Did the NT Christians practice pilgrimage to Jerusalem?. The festival tithe must be taken to Jerusalem. If that was prescribed to NT Christians we should make pilgrimage to Jerusalem like the Muslims visit Mecca?!?!?!What is the festival tithe?What was the purpose of the festival tithe? i guess you refer to the tithe given at Jerusalem, not the one eaten by the tithe giver(you can't eat your cake and have it back, can you?)
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Once you know the purpose of giving, then you give. Your church should be trusted to take care of the rest. You are to give as if you're giving to God, not to men. The rest is between them and God. Some churches i.e locations, take their tithes and offering to their headquarters, some to their zonal headquarters, some to state or national headquarters. After which the headquarters share to all the locations/parishes equally. Some share as need arise. Some church locations are permitted to keep and spend their collections as led. It's all administration, church policy. There is no 'righter'one there or 'wronger'one. Obedience and motive is key. In the Bible, there were some collections sent to Jerusalem by the early church too. It all depends, especially as the Spirit of God leads the overseers.
Paul practice pilgrimage to Jerusalem but it's not a law. there's nothing wrong with going to Jerusalem, the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. As much as we know that by grace, we are saved, not of works.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Goshen360(m): 3:13am On Apr 18, 2012|
If you look below the page, you go see say I never sleep here. I dey view and enjoy all your replies but maybe na when I wake we go chat our course. I want make you finish all the kweshions as much as you want to answer, maybe you want to answer all though. Thanks you.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Image123(m): 3:17am On Apr 18, 2012|
Goshen360: Bros Image123,i see you my brother. na your type make me come answer question oo.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Image123(m): 3:24am On Apr 18, 2012|
9. The 3rd tithe for poor (Charity Tithe): Why don’t tithe asking Pastors give their congregation the liberty to take care of the poor? Why would it go to the benevolent funds controlled by the Church board? Poor people need to go through hoops to get some help. That really complicates the process?i don't know about all these tithe names you're bringing up. If you have a nomenclature, why do you kunle and your cohorts always behave as if you do not know that there are different types of tithes? Who stops any body from taking care of the poor? Is lie no more a sin too? Or why are you lying here? 'benevolent funds controlled by the Church board'? What is this? Not everybody attends your church. If poor people go through hoops to get help in your church, it's not so in every church. Are you among those poor people and what are you doing to help the poor people so that they don't have to go through hoops?
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Goshen360(m): 3:26am On Apr 18, 2012|
Well, you have made some fundamental statement that are true and scriptural. I hope all these MOG collecting tithes will talk like you have spoken today. Everything will be fine but they have presented these tithe teachings as falsehood and the way the teach tithe, it's like by force by fire. I will come to that maybe when i wake, that is if Kunle had not bombarded you before I wake up.
Secondly, the truth you presently in all your answers are mixed with errors in some places. You see my brother, I have come to a conclusion where I learnt not to condemn what somebody teach or preaches BECAUSE WE KNOW IN PART AND MOST THINGS WE CLAIM TO KNOW ARE SOMETIMES HALF TRUTH OR TRUTH MIXED WITH ERRORS EXCEPT FOR THE FUNDAMENTALS OR ELEMENTARY OF OUR FAITH. I will explain more later.
You can finish all your replies and let's look at it together, that is if Kunle had not bombarded you like I said,lol
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Image123(m): 3:49am On Apr 18, 2012|
10. Even if we assume that tithing was commanded to NT Christians the pro-tithers fail to consider one important thing:Don't assume. It was actually stated. These ought to be done.
* The plurality of the NT Church leadership.Not all churches were 'founded' by apostles. Philip in Acts 8 was not an apostle. People went everywhere preaching and 'founding' churches. Timothy was leader of a church at Ephesus, Titus was leader of a church.
Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
The people referred to by Jesus in Revelations were leaders of seven churches.
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
i do not know the model you refer to, i've just mentioned different examples that singly headed churches in the new testament. That's the office of a bishop/pastor.
b. Also the early Church had all 5 five fold ministries in the Church.All 5 offices should exist. This is shameful and poor logic you've employed here. If that's the way you want to go about your ministry, go ahead. Get five people and let's share the money, you are not under the law! In most churches though, it's not boiling down to five people sharing the money or one person sharing the money. tithes and offerings are distributed according to church administration and policies. Full time workers are paid the same way workers are paid in their various establishments.Churches have finance departments, accountants, purchase officers and departments and several other departments. If your local church is run singly, well, we don't all attend your church. You don't appear to be 'seeing' much from where you are. It's better you keep quiet or get more exposure.
c. Acts 13:1i don't know where you get your assumptions, you may keep them to yourself. i have more important things to deal with than your vain assumptions.
d. Many Senior Pastors have their associate Pastors. Most of them are not paid well and some of them are asked to “live by faith”. These tithe hungry Pastors not only forget the poor but also neglect their own staff members. This example was certainly not followed by the first century Christian church.If these sad things happen in your church, sorry they don't happen in mine and are no basis for condemning others. Deal with them as God leads you, i'll be praying for you too.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Pastor Kun(m): 7:33am On Apr 18, 2012|
Olodo I really must commend your courage in attempting to answer those questions even though what you did was to at best dance around the issues. Unfortunately I can't give a detailed rebuttal of the hallucinations you express above cause I am browsing with my phone and I am unable to quote extensively. However I must reiterate as bro Goshen noted that your answers are mostly lies mixed with truth based on your ill informed opinion.
However whilst you are still in the kweshion answering mood, could you briefly answer the additional kweshions:
1. Is it morally right for modern day preachers to twist God's word to include monetary tithes when biblical tithes demanded by God (from the Jews) was strictly agricultural produce.
2. We all know that mandatory tithing was based on obsolete mosaic laws which are not applicable to christians living under grace, is it right for preachers to be preaching this aspect of the law even though the law is now no longer valid?
I would refrain from asking further kweshions for now, I trust that brother Goshen wld give a detailed rebuttal of your hallucinations when he wakes up.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Jem1: 8:29am On Apr 18, 2012|
I don't intend to derail the thread or anything but I'd like to post my observations. I like the way you explained tithing as it was done using the scripture and it's made me ponder some more on the issue which is a good thing cos one can't know it all. Where I digress from those who insist on the practice of tithing for 21st believers is the following:
1. Moses' Tithing Law had the following audience in Israel
a. Those Israelites Commanded to Tithe (TICT)
b. Israelites Not so Commanded (INC)
I wonder of the two groups above; TICT & INC why the New Testament church in the 21st century would prefer to mould themselves after the former? I would really like to know the biblical basis for the preference as there were some other successful groups (and some poorer ones) who were not commanded to tithe.
I tried to address this in my short story below, I would be grateful if you can comment on it.
Here's the definition of the particular 'Registers' I'm referring to:
- 'In linguistics, a register is a variety of a language used for a particular purpose or in a particular social setting. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_(sociolinguistics)
Language use of terms must be put in their proper context/meaning or else, any premise on which it based may prove wrong and if carried out knowingly may amount to intellectual dishonesty.
When Jesus talked about tithe in Matt 23:23, He was speaking to a particular audience - TICT. i.e. Those Israelites commanded to Tithe. When some say He mentioned tithing and approved of it, is that the full story? Would an INC (Israelite not so Commanded) listening have said 'oh dear, the Master says not to neglect these things so I must tithe' even though the INC is a carpenter or a fisherman?
Here's my story:
p.s. You’ve also said one can’t be legalistic which is where I agree with you i.e. if tithing is a set of principles then the application may vary as things have changed since old testament times which you’ve acknowledged and I agree with you.
I also don’t know where you stand so my comment above may not apply to you 100% so I apologise if I have generalised.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Goshen360(m): 3:33pm On Apr 18, 2012|
First, I'll to thank you for the questions answered.
Second, maybe you should answer Kunle's questions in post #48 and Jem1's question in post #49, then we can then start to look at each of your response to question 1-10 that I observed you said some truth but mixed with errors. We will examine each question/answers one after the other so as to concentrate. I will appreciate it.
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|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Image123(m): 1:02am On Apr 19, 2012|
i suggest you carry on with your responses. i purpose to finish 'discussion' on the multiple questions already answered first before thinking of any other question, thank you.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Goshen360(m): 5:32am On Apr 19, 2012|
@ Image123 and others,
Come, let us reason together.....saith the Lord and Goshen360.
Image123: i want to state that it's not my joy or aim to go into endless discussion on tithe. Tithe does not take anyone into Heaven, neither does it disqualify anyone from Heaven. Due to requests from others apart from kunle is the reason why i've decided to reply to the OP. And please, each should prayerfully go and learn more on the issue of tithes instead of spreading and supporting anything and everything anti-tithe.
First, you are NOT going into endless discussion on tithe. It is our duty to teach God's truth as much as we know and nothing but the truth. Hence, we are here to teach ourselves and to learn from ourselves,okay.
You just said a fundamental truth which i first referred to in one of my comments to you. Just like you said, TITHE DOES NOT TAKE ANYONE TO HEAVEN NEITHER DOES IT DISQUALIFY ANYONE FROM HEAVEN. This is a bible truth you have said. Unfortunately, these tithe preachers don't see it the way you said it. They force it on people and even emphasis curse in Malachi upon the people. They make it look like it is the SURE way that God blesses people. Abraham, we know was rich in material things before he gave tithe of the "spoil" to Melchizedek. These tithe teachers go any length to use all sort of unscriptural ways to fleece God's people. Should they see it the way you have said, I don't think there will be problem.
Now, we might have some issues due to how we interpret Matt 23:23/Luke 11:42. I will raise my point against these two verses and we can look at it together. I don't think Jesus supports tithe here even though it was still in practice then, and I will state reasons why I don't believe Jesus was supporting tithe here.
1. As we all know, Jesus was born under the law and lived the law otherwise he would break the same law he came to fulfill. Let's look at the point I want to raise against Matt 23:23/Luke 11:42 below:
2. In context of Matt 23:1-3. "Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, [that] observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do". nkjv
Looking at the line of language used here. Jesus acknowledged the scribes and the Pharisees who sit in Moses' seat. Meaning Jesus acknowledged the authorities here so He was telling His disciples and multitudes obey authorities but don't do according to their works, one of which their works is tithing which we see in verse 23.
3. If Jesus was supporting tithe in Matt 23:23, then since he himself was born under the law, lived the law and fulfilled the law, then Jesus himself must have paid tithe but he never did. Also, If Jesus was in support of tithe here, he would have taught his disciples tithe even as he taught them to tax to the authorities then and Jesus himself did paid tax. Tax is different from tithe as we all know.
4. The people in context here that tithe are neither Jesus nor His disciples but Pharisees and scribes. Our example is Christ and not scribes/pharisees and the content of tithe here is NOT money but mint, anise and cummin.
5. This is what I believe Jesus was saying in Matt 23:23. Let me illustrate it in a plain language. It's like rebuking someone that is eating food but not drinking water which he/she should do. So if am rebuking such person, i can say to the person, "mumu, why do you eat without drinking water? you should have drank water without leaving the food uneaten" . Since they were still under law then and tithe is still being practiced, off course it calls for such statement from Jesus that, "these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone".
This kind of first tithe you mentioned with emphasis that it was meant for the Levites, TEMPLE WORKERS AND THEIR FAMILIES. If I also quote you in one of your reply, you said the Levites are the people who taught God's way right? Let me quote you below,
So you admitted that Levites today are ANYONE who does the work of God. If we apply this your definition of Levites today, then it means, you can give me your tithe and I can give you mine and well as I can give Kunle or anyone my tithe or you can also give Kunle your tithe and NOT church as we see today.
Again, If we put your word in use on the definition of Levites in the bible, Jesus and the Apostles did the work of God, teaching people God's way BUT they never received tithes.
Also, it also means, our singers, Ushers, deacons, deaconess, writers of God's word and the likes should all recieve tithes.
But biblically, the levitical priesthood had been abolished and hence the tithe systems is also abolished with it. The Levitical priesthood can't be abolished and tithe remains. We are kings and priest unto our God now. The priest stood before God and men to make intercession in OT but when Christ died, all believers are priest, no one is to stand between us and God anymore except Christ our High Priest. Also, since the Levites serve the Priest in the OT, they will mean the workers which you yourself also mentioned above, you said TEMPLE WORKERS. They will mean church workers today. Today, there is no more temple as believers are not the temple themselves. If we put your meaning of Levites into use again, as TEMPLE WORKERS, it means it is these church workers that are suppose to receive tithe and it MUST STILL NOT BE MONEY, IT MUST BE AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS as stipulated in the bible.
Second tithe. You will agree with me and every Christians that tithe teachers DON'T TELL THE TITHERS TO EAT THIS KIND OF TITHE WITH THE POOR NEITHER DO THE TITHE TEACHERS TELL TITHERS TO GO OBSERVE THIS 2ND TITHE "IN" JERUSALEM as you mentioned. You also mentioned it has to be "IN" Jerusalem. You yourself mentioned somewhere that, Jesus said we will no more worship in Jerusalem. So how do people tithe payers eat these type of tithe with the poor "IN" Jerusalem? This is NOT possible my brother. You may also wish to explain more on this aspect as it does not tally with what the tithe teachers teach today. Let me ask you a question here, HAVE YOU EVER TAKEN YOUR NON MONETARY TITHE TO JERUSALEM YOURSELF TO EAT WITH THE POOR?
Third tithe. Must also be eaten "within" the house of the tithe giver WITH THE POOR NEIGHBOURS AND LEVITES NEIGHBOURS ETC. Can you honestly say that tithes teachers ALL across the world do teach people to observe this kind of tithe? All they ever say is bring to the storehouse. They hide the 2nd and 3rd kind of tithe from people and don't tell them the completer truth, they only tell people the first kind of tithe because that is the one that favours them and like you said, that is the one that many people know, because that is the one they only teach. Again, this 3rd tithe is NOT yearly, it's once in 3 years. Do tithe teachers ever give tithe payers break? These is all fraudulent system as long as tithe teachers are hiding the completer truth from God's people.
Again, you said tithing is to a school master to teach us giving. GREAT POINT. If a school master brought us to grace, why do we still need this school master since it had already done the will of God, bringing us to grace. why do we still hold on to the school master? If the school master is to teach us giving, then now that we know us to give, then we should stay on giving and not giving according to stipulated %, as long as we still keep stipulating a certain % to our giving, then it according to law and works of the law. The law didn't save us but grace did, it applies to all, not only in giving. If i used counters to learn addition and now am in university, you just mentioned that counters will not be needed anymore. I hope you just accepted the fact that, tithe is not needed anymore since we already know how to give by our "proposing in the heart" 2 Corinthians 9:7. Those thing were shadows. The substance is here so the shadow is done away with.
Let us treat this number one question also first so we don't get things too complicated. This is my response to your first comment. Let's open the discussion to others that may also want to contribute and you may also contribute for correction purpose.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Pastor Kun(m): 7:24am On Apr 19, 2012|
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by nuclearboy(m): 9:05am On Apr 19, 2012|
That was BRILLIANT!
Its funny - I think tithe is the only issue where many people here find disagreement with Image123 and I believe (maybe I am wrong) that his insistence on holding to this concept remains the problem of Christianity - the unconscious desire to "feel" you warrant God's Blessing because you did something rather than based on Grace!
I would like to see a rebuttal to that post that doesn't pander to emotions and delusions
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by yommy2sure(m): 12:47pm On Apr 19, 2012|
these debates on tithe seems endless, one thing im sure of is the fact that the new testament only encourage free will giving...that each one must give according to how he purpose in his heart, not forcefully...if you like give 10% or 50% just make sure u r giving out of love and devotion to the Lord not out of fear or promise of reward from God....isnt God's love suppose to be unconditional.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Pastor Kun(m): 1:17pm On Apr 19, 2012|
We are still waiting for your inputs, your brother needs help to get out of the hole he dug for himself
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Goshen360(m): 1:46pm On Apr 19, 2012|
Good morning everyone,
I will like to go to continue to in my rebuttal to bro Image123. I "guess" he will respond back after am done. Thank you.
You call this debate but we call it teaching. It's all about perspective. Do you know that even Jesus had four perspective in the natural when he was living on earth? That's why we have four gospel writers, showing us all the 4 aspects of Jesus,lol. Am laughing but not a joke anyway, it's the truth.
Matthew presented Jesus as King and the Messiah that was promised
Mark present Jesus as the servant
Luke presented Jesus as the son of man that saved man-kind from their sins
John presented Jesus as the word with God from the beginning.
Now you see, we are the most blessed generation as believers because all these dimensions are given to us.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Image123(m): 1:48pm On Apr 19, 2012|
Pastor Kun: @snowwyYou remain yourself. It'd be better you keep quiet and learn like others instead of polluting the thread. i'll answer at a convenient time. We do give you joy when we teach tithes, right? It'd all be so vain if we ignored your pollutions? Don't worry, we're here to make you happy.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Pastor Kun(m): 2:32pm On Apr 19, 2012|
I didn't know your I.D is now snowwy Or was my post addressed at you?
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Image123(m): 2:35pm On Apr 19, 2012|
Pastor Kun:i was beginning to think you were either past learning or omniscient. I'm happy for you.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Goshen360(m): 2:46pm On Apr 19, 2012|
Quote from replying to Q.2
Well, I don't know how Kunle also got his 23% o. Maybe he should explain to us.
Bro Image123, this is a shocking statement from you sir. Due respect, you just told us that THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY THAT THE EARLY CHRISTIANS DID TITHE and you also made a contradictory statement that IT IS POSSIBLE THEY DID, BUT YOU JUST SAID THE BIBLE DIDN'T "SAY" THAT THEY DID NOT. How then did you come to your contradictory statement that it is possible they did. You went on to say, "ESPECIALLY THE JEWISH CHRISTIANS". At this point, I suppose you know better even as i have read many of your post and being your friend here for some time. You know that "in Christ" there is neither Jews or Gentiles". You know that "he" is NOT a Jew who is a Jew outside but one who is inside, through Christ. This your idea of "especially Jewish Christian" is trying to go in line with the jewish practice in christianity which Paul condemned. On the other hand, ARE YOU A JEW by yourself in the natural? Am sure your answer is NO. Then why are you taking side with Jewish Christian even "if" they did tithe in the early christians?.
You also said the Jews were heavily influenced by the LAW. You know what? YOU ARE VERY CORRECT AND 100% RIGHT WITH THESE STATEMENT. The problem with these statement however is, "heavily influenced by the law" that WE ARE NO MORE UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES BUT UNDER THE LAW OF CHRIST. The Jews wanted to continue with the law of Moses and continue to influence it on the early Christians but Paul corrected this aspect. This is very simple, if the jews want to continue the law of Moses, I will prove that they will be segregating the scriptures, breaking some and thinking they are fulfilling the others. The bible says, to break one law is to break all. I will say to these Jews that they should continue their purification, continue tithing, stone adulterer to death, kill rebellious kids etc. It's fine if they do all of these because all is in the law of Moses. There will be scripture segregation when they/you/tithe teachers pick out only tithe and say it continues-this is NOT "rightly dividing" the word of truth.
Let me ask you a question here. Do you yourself preach and practice circumcision "as a way of salvation"? Since the Epistle corrected these things, why are you using it as a defense for tithing? You see, the Jews are the ones that wanted to mess up christianity by imposing the laws of Moses that was done away with on the early christians. Yes, tithing is a way of giving BUT as long as it is done according to the law, then it is not of grace. It is very true that NONE of the Apostles spoke evil of tithing but they didn't preach it either and neither did any of the Apostles threatened with Malachi curse like we see MOG do today. Giving is good for ALL Christians to do but you can be doing a good thing in a wrong way. It won't bring blessings. What we see clearly from the Apostle's teaching is sacrificial giving, free will giving, supporting the ministers of God in giving etc.
The point i "think" you (Image123) is still not getting is, IF IT HAS TO BE TITHING BY LAW, THEN IT HAS TO BE AGRICULTURAL PRODUCES AND NOTHING MORE. This is biblical tithing. We are now to give because we don't all do agricultural business. So since we don't all do agro-business, then we must still give, tithe was taken away to allow money means of giving. If you can get this revelation and truth, you will appreciate it. They used to tithe agro products then which is the acceptable kind of tithe. Now that you yourself don't do agro business AND IT IS COMPULSORY YOU GIVE,HOW DO YOU DO THAT? Use your money, that is not based on a certain percentage anymore because the one that is based on percentage is not what you into as occupation. As you use your money, you are no more tithing but giving and NOT giving this money based on the law of tithing (law of percentage) because you cannot achieve tithing with money except you add certain percentage as commanded by God.
I hope you spot some truth here. I will proceed to the next question.
|Re: Uncomfortable Questions For Tithe Preachers by Image123(m): 3:35pm On Apr 19, 2012|
^it MAY be better we take it one by one, but as you please though.
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