nateevs: My opinion about counter attacking football especially with the flavours AM and Mochengladbach is that it is a derivative of tippy tappy except as opposed to very slow, patient build-up of play, the movement and passing is swift. However, the common ground in both styles is heavy reliance on the use of space by way of intricate passing and the use of very technically-gifted players to execute such.

I actually feel that this style was adopted to resemble something very close to tippy tappy but at the same time being very considerate about organisation in defence. My belief is that this derivative is as a result of the crucial need to survive in the league.

Diego Simeone played under Marcelo Bielsa while he was coach of Argentina and I like to believe he knows about possession football. Therefore if given the quality of Barcelona, will not play counter attacking football but possession football. I believe the same of Lucien Favre.

Characteristics of most tippy tappy side is to have ball playign CD and DM. The counter attacking style seeks to soak up pressure and attack at pace with very few touches on the ball as possible. This was what Hector Cuper played in Valencia and benitez inherited This s also what Jogi Loew played with the Germans in 2010. get the ball to the attack in as few touches as possible. A counter attacking side would be seen launching 20yard passes in transition from defence to offence which is done at pace While tippy-tappy seeks to string as many passes as possible in the opposition area patiently waiting for open lanes.

Tippy tappy is kinda boring to watch because a lot of time the passes from defence to midfield is seen as neutrals as just a means of wasting time while it is actually a way of making the opponent lose their shape

nateevs:


Of course it is 'a tactic that has worked and can be replicated'. Whether it should be replicated is the question I cannot answer.

Secondly, I told you that this Barca crop is a fruition of years of investment in teaching total football. That is why they perhaps are the flag bearers of the tactic on a very successful level. Ajax achieved this in the early 90s but years of financial disruption has derailed the success. They are now returning back to this method with under the tutelage of Frank De Boer along with his brother Ronald - taking it back to the academy.

There aren't many teams that are successful at it yet but more and more teams are going that way. Atletico Bilbao, Atletico Madrid, Borrusia Mochengladbach, Arsenal, Ajax, Blackpool, Swansea, Liverpool, Spurs.


As stated extensively, tippy tappy is a philosophy that requires dedication and acceptance by all involved in the club. However, the politics of instant gratification is what usually disrupts the learning curve. Most times if you don't win quickly enough, you lose money. That's why people resort to all sorts of tactics not because tippy tappy by itself is an inferior tactic. If most team persists at it, it can work.

The truth is, only a handful of managers can teach it, that's why fewer teams play that way.

Ajax has always played that way and they have seen their success reduced over the years and atimes overtaken by pragmatic PSV

its the classic Van Gaal vs Hindick philosophy

dayokanu:

Ajax has always played that way and they have seen their success reduced over the years and atimes overtaken by pragmatic PSV

its the classic Van Gaal vs Hindick philosophy

I am sorry but this just entirely wrong. Your attempt to label Ajax's fall from grace "only a resultant of their playing style" is preposterous.

Also I do not agree with you that Hector Cuper's Valencia was mainly counter attacking. I was a massive Valencia fan back in the day and while Hector had the knack for setting up for the opposition, he was mainly about building quick-paced attack from behind.


That tippy tappy is boring is an opinion that should not be forced on people. I absolutely adore tika taka. It's technical football of unimaginative levels and it takes the best of the best of technical players to execute it.


And what the hell is "realistic football" by the way?

dayokanu:
Arsenal of 2003/2004 were not tippy tappy The tip tap rubbish started after 2006. Arsenal before then played realistic football most of which is just route a long ball to Henry who blitz the defence Check Arsenal performance in San Siro in 2003/2004 to see what I am saying

the arsenal unbeaten team did not play tippy-tappy? don't let anyone hear that from you...they were pass masters. the youtube clip you brought up was an away game to inter-milan in which arsenal lost 0-3 in the corresponding fixture in london. how can that single match mirror their whole season? would i be correct if i bring up barcelona's semifinal duel with chelsea in 2009 as an example that barca did not play tiki-taka that season?

Check how Arsenal played their CL campaign of 2006 or the FA cup final of 2005.

they were playing teams better than them in both cases. united took 6 points from them that season and arsenal's campaign in 2006 champs league was an anomaly. they played 4-5-1 throughout and their aim was to load the midfield, stifle their opponents and score from a lucky break!

Realistic football is what Real madrid played between 98 and 02. 98 was a Capello/Juup heyckenes side definitely not tippy tappy in any way, Madrid of 2000 played some of the most negative football in that series and were under the cosh from both Man Utd and Bayern for long spells mostly taking their chances on the counterattack. The Madrid of 2002 was the most attacking of that era yet they had the grit of Makelele.

real madrid were head and shoulders above everyone in europe then. they did not play realistic football - they were not even interested in defending with the array of stars they had in that era! under del bosque, they passed teams to death!

Their attempt to play the real tiki taka post 2003 was what led them into the ignominy of the Galacticos era.

keep lying to yourself - the loss of makelele as their real destroyer was their undoing! they hired and fired managers at will so they never had any team stability! so you are telling me a team under carlos queiroz would ever consider tippy-tappy? dayo - if you wipe your mouth, there would be blood on your palm!

nateevs:

I am sorry but this just entirely wrong. Your attempt to label Ajax's fall from grace "only a resultant of their playing style" is preposterous.

Also I do not agree with you that Hector Cuper's Valencia was mainly counter attacking. I was a massive Valencia fan back in the day and while Hector had the knack for setting up for the opposition, he was mainly about building quick-paced attack from behind.


That tippy tappy is boring is an opinion that should not be forced on people. I absolutely adore tika taka. It's technical football of unimaginative levels and it takes the best of the best of technical players to execute it.


And what the hell is "realistic football" by the way?

Now tell me what in the defintion of counter attacking football is different from the bolded statement.

Realistic football is bunkering when you need to and attacking when you need to The type played by most teams that win trophy. Tiki take advocate stick to their guns regardless of the situation Van Gall side would rather lose 100-0 than close shop and bunker. You would hardly notice a difference in play from a Barcelona down by 5 goals and a Barcelona up by 5 goals. Last week Barcelona was leading 4-2 I think when they got a red card. Realistic football would dumb down things a bit, remove an attacker for a defender and wait to counter not Barcelona. That is the difference between tiki taka and what I call realistic football.

coogar:

the arsenal unbeaten team did not play tippy-tappy? don't let anyone hear that from you...they were pass masters. the youtube clip you brought up was an away game to inter-milan in which arsenal lost 0-3 in the corresponding fixture in london. how can that single match mirror their whole season? would i be correct if i bring up barcelona's semifinal duel with chelsea in 2009 as an example that barca did not play tiki-taka that season?

How did Barcelona play the semi final vs Chelsea that id different from the way they play all the time? They dominated possesion all through and they played only short passes tippy tapp even when it was almost certain they were on their way out of the competition.

they were playing teams better than them in both cases. united took 6 points from them that season and arsenal's campaign in 2006 champs league was an anomaly. they played 4-5-1 throughout and their aim was to load the midfield, stifle their opponents and score from a lucky break!

Would a tippy tappy side line up to score on a lucky break like Arsenal did in the CL of 2006? That is what I call realistic football. No tippy tappy side would ditch their philosophy. Would Barcelona ever do that? WOuld Ajax ever do that? Even when playing AC Milan and Madrid with a Bunch of teenager, tippy tappy Idol Van Gaal still went to he Bernaneu and San Siro to pass these giants to death

real madrid were head and shoulders above everyone in europe then. they did not play realistic football - they were not even interested in defending with the array of stars they had in that era! under del bosque, they passed teams to death!

1998- Was Capello/Juup Heyckenes sides How can those be tippy tappy?

2000 - was a side in crisis that ended in 5th position in La Liga and had to play Almost Chelsea like football to win the CL. The only game which Madrid dominated in the 2000 CL was the final vs a "Deer caught in headlight" Valencia.

The only semblance of successful Madrid attacking football was 2002-2003 before Del Bosque was sacked and that team even had henchmen like Helguera, Makelelein their ranks

dayokanu:

Now tell me what in the defintion of counter attacking football is different from the bolded statement.

Realistic football is bunkering when you need to and attacking when you need to The type played by most teams that win trophy. Tiki take advocate stick to their guns regardless of the situation Van Gall side would rather lose 100-0 than close shop and bunker. You would hardly notice a difference in play from a Barcelona down by 5 goals and a Barcelona up by 5 goals. Last week Barcelona was leading 4-2 I think when they got a red card. Realistic football would dumb down things a bit, remove an attacker for a defender and wait to counter not Barcelona. That is the difference between tiki taka and what I call realistic football.

Who says you have to take out an attacker when you are up? Which rule book defines this as the way to play football? Marcelo Bielsa plays a 3-3-1-3. In the eyes of the English, he is insane.

There is no formal way of playing football. If you are up by 5 and still play the same way, then good luck. How many times have we seen a team take off an attacker in the hope of defending, concede a goal and lose impetus to on and claim a win? Yet people still do it. Why do managers believe that at 3 nil up on the 60th minute, if I sacrifice attack, I won't concede?


No football style deserves the reverenced title "realistic football". You make it sound like it's harder to win playing tippy tappy.

nateevs: Who says you have to take out an attacker when you are up? Which rule book defines this as the way to play football? Marcelo Bielsa plays a 3-3-1-3. In the eyes of the English, he is insane.

There is no formal way of playing football. If you are up by 5 and still play the same way, then good luck. How many times have we seen a team take off an attacker in the hope of defending, concede a goal and lose impetus to on and claim a win? Yet people still do it. Why do managers believe that at 3 nil up on the 60th minute, if I sacrifice attack, I won't concede?

No football style deserves the reverenced title "realistic football". You make it sound like it's harder to win playing tippy tappy.

Did you read my previous post?

Barcelona was up by 2 goals away, lost a man to a red card Not just a man, the guy playing central defence. If you are leading 2 goals away from home and have a Central defender sent off leaving you with a just a lone defender what is the "Realistic" thing to do?

What is the ideal thing to do in a football game? Both teams attack one another even if its Sunshine playing Barcelona Whats the realistic thing to do? Sunshine coach should know matching Barca attack for attack is trouble. That was what RdM and many coaches did that won him the CL

Like in life everyone knows the right thing is to say your mind everytime, But its also common sense not to tell your boss you think he is a douchebag when he is one

if you can score goals do that without match fixing , tippy tappy or tipsy tackky is all folks , having the right players is most important to execute such plan

i believe team work is the most important , porto 04 , liverpool 05 , chelsea 2012 .. tippy tappy is just a tactics to enjoy yourself on the pitch. .

Arsenal 03/04 was not a tippy happy team but a counterattacking team who wait for transitions. What else would anyone call Gilberto Silva and Vieira who soak up pressure the counterattack from box to box in 5 passes with wingers like Ljungberg whose only job is to make diagonal run behind the defence for tap in. Arsenal started switching from counterattack to tippy happy in 04/05 when Fabregas was given shirt and later joined by Hleb, Rosicky and Denilson.

Hector Cuper is the most boring manager ever. Never can tippy happy be ascribed to any of his teams and definitely not to his kind of midfielders like Baraja, Albelda, Mendieta aka thou shalt not pass.

Atletico Madrid central midfield of two from Koke, Gabi, Thiago and Suarez is the ultimate water carrying midfield and has nothing to do with tika taka. In an average game, Atletico will not create more than 4 chances and will nit concede more than 1 chance per game.

dyabman: if you can score goals do that without match fixing , tippy tappy or tipsy tackky is all folks , having the right players is most important to execute such plan

i believe team work is the most important , porto 04 , liverpool 05 , chelsea 2012 .. tippy tappy is just a tactics to enjoy yourself on the pitch. .

that's anti-football!
in the next 15 yrs, would you remember the style of play of chelsea, porto or liverpool? nah! you would talk about barcelona 2008 till now or ajax of the mid-90s. beautiful football and titles can co-exist! managers/players are just lazy these days to deploy a blueprint to play pretty football and win @ the same time!

dayokanu:

Compare that Brazil team to the other Brazilian team of previous years and everyone would tell you it was the dullest.

EVen the Brazilians at that point realized Samba was easier to neutralize at the World cup and went very pragmatic with Dunga Branco, Mazinho.

The magic was left to the 2 attackers Romario and Bebeto

Previous teams?? Which ones because prior to 94 only the Brazilian teams of 70 and 82 where rated in recent times. The last two Brazilian teams before USA 94 where resounding failures! That 94 team more or less heralded the renaissance and saved Brazilian football from the joke it was becoming in those barren years. So I ask if they where boring why where they voted most entertaining team in that tournament?

190-the-clown:
can we please talk about sheke kepper

Wait till tomorrow for another shekpe keeping

190-the-clown:
can we please talk about sheke kepper

The way Tevez bailed out a flailing Man City against Swansea whilst Torres was the worst player for a failing Chelsea in Donetsk is enough to tell you that if Chelsea continue to carry passengers, it will one day become terminal when our midfielders fail to fire.

Lemme go out on a whim here and predict the shekpe keeper would have a good game tomorrow. He always has a way of functioning against Utd

Thank God Fergie is giving Howard Webb a rest for tomorrow's match. Now lets have a fair game.

High_Chief: Thank God Fergie is giving Howard Webb a rest for tomorrow's match. Now lets have a fair game.

i remember against shaktar wen sheke keeper got involved in a collision of
a defender of theirs (forgotten his name)
sheke was laffin @ one point, I was laffin too cos i found it hilarious
he doesnt even seem bothered if he scores or not

i think hes out to punish chelsea for investin in him or sometin~
and why does he run in an awkward way like someone running with some hugh swollen scrotum

Hehehe. Finally Marko Marin is on the bench.

Well I've never had a problem with Howard Webb cos he's a good common sense referee and I know many other foolish refs in the prem. We've just seen one of those eediots today.

Ibime: Well I've never had a problem with Howard Webb cos he's a good common sense referee and I know many other foolish refs in the prem. We've just seen one of those eediots today.

What did you have a problem with Ibime?

can't fault the players today especially after the comeback. ref just decided to dabaru the game. shame.

anyways, we meet manshyte again in a few days time.

Update on the Torres watch please

dayokanu: Update on the Torres watch please

he scored 2 beautiful goals and was sent off by a poor ref!
nando anticipated a tackle from evans and dived!

Well done boys. We gave it a good fight. A very good display from the boys. The ref? Pfft!

Rdm needs to have a word with hazard. He's starting to Pisa me off. He was directly responsible for the first two goals today and his laziness contributed to the 3rd goal. Add the goal conceded against Arsenal and no team can afford to carry such player who has caused 4 goals already in just 14 games if we count the Donetsk game as well. I'm sure if I study the Atletico match as well I would find goals for which Hazard was culpable. It's a simple matter. just follow the fullback. You don't have to tackle him, just present a barrier to him. Even Mata knows this but Hazard is just taking the piss. No wonder Marc Wilmots always benches him.

^^^ it was for that same reason the belgium national coach benched him. the boy just no dey defend. that left hand side was just like a basket.

but i'm sure he will learn...just watch.

Also, why do we like to concede so early in matches. na super eagles them be?

I have to give it to Chelsea with the way they played with 9 men.
If it was the other way round, we would have been battered.
Well done Chelsea!

dyabman: if you can score goals do that without match fixing , tippy tappy or tipsy tackky is all folks , having the right players is most important to execute such plan

i believe team work is the most important , porto 04 , liverpool 05 , chelsea 2012 .. tippy tappy is just a tactics to enjoy yourself on the pitch. .

Honestly, I couldn't have said it any better. dyabman you just nailed it.

FBS: ^^^ it was for that same reason the belgium national coach benched him. the boy just no dey defend. that left hand side was just like a basket.

but i'm sure he will learn...just watch.

Also, why do we like to concede so early in matches. na super eagles them be?

But I thought he's supposed to press better since he's not built like a tower

Ibime:

But I thought he's supposed to press better since he's not built like a tower

na who talk one, nateevs? me I can't stand it when players don't track back. be it friendly or whatever. I can't stand it.

Someone needs to explain to RDM that Torres has do absolutely nothing to justify his starting every game this season. He only improves Chelsea ability to play with 10 men. Sturridge or even Moses would do better in his place.
We cannot keep playing Mata and Hazard week in week out. We know the understand each other perfectly but we still need to see what Moses and Marin can do.
Finally, with my head held up high, I accept that Manchester United is the English FA