Jenwitemi: My friend,"he" is not the creator and "he" does not make the rules. He has no right to punish any sinner because he is a bigger sinner than any human that ever existed.

You can claim "he" is your god, but remember that you are only as righteous as the deity you choose to worship. If your god is evil, so will you be evil.

So far you have been putting up an emotionally charged argument, now please logically consider my standpoint:

I believe my God is the Almighty Person and He created everything that exists. If my God is the Almighty creator, then He has every right to do what He wills with His creation. This you cannot argue with unless you claim that He is not Creator (which you have now done; in which case we cannot argue over the morality of a creator if we can't agree as to whether he is creator or not).

Now since He is not the creator according to you, please tell me about this creator of yours and why this creator does not have the right to destroy It's creation.

cyrexx:


a classic tale of a fraudulent doctor
"Christianity and similar religions makes you believe you deserve hell and offers you salvation as a cure. its like a doctor who disributes disease and offers the cure to you. Atheism is the prevention of that disease. And prevention is always better than cure"

Wrong. You are falsely assuming that God distributes sin or that Christianity causes people to sin then tells them about it's consequences then atheism comes out and tells people that there is no such thing as sin and hence no hell. This is dishonest.
Man has always known good and evil, all atheism is doing is saying there are no eternal consequences for good and evil and I am afraid this is psychopathic (in the true sense of the word). Atheism is not the cure at all because it seems to be saying "do whatever you can get away with". Convenient as this may sound, It is a very dangerous philosophy in itself and you know it.

dont misunderstand me too
christians might be more noble than muslims in their matyrdom. but that doesn't validate their belief. they are motivated by rewards of afterlife just like muslims. that is what i said.

The question isn't really as much the motivation as it is the actions inspired. Don't you agree?

did you forget that that Yahweh orders his followers to kill worshippers of non-Yahweh gods. and he is the father of your Christ. how is he different from the bloodthirsty Allah of the muslims.

I have said this over and over again: To say God is creator means that He must have the right to destroy His creation. It is not a question of how we might feel about it. besides, in the context of this debate, the assumption is that there is one God with multiple interpretations hence if it is indeed the same God but some say He orders them to kill while others say He doesn't, one person is telling the truth and one person is lying.

This is what I know; The old testament days was the dispensation of the law and God punished sin physically (and rightfully so) Now is the dispensation of grace we have our whole lifetime to repent and turn to God and he will forgive us.

Jesus Christ came and has fulfilled the whole Law. He has died, He has resurrected and because of Him we can be blameless before God.

I sicerely wish dat d bible has not been misrepresented then most of all what is said here about God would not be. Greedy miracle prosperity seekers who have naver realy have love for God will pick a line from d bible out of context will use it and others will simply follow through, a look at Isaiah 46:9,10 and considering Isaiah 45:18 give the sense of what d context telling d future was all about. When references are made concerning issues and lines are not drawn as to d start of d issue and d end it is wrong, here d issue was planet earth that it was created to be inherbited dat from de begining he God is telling how the earth will b in the end dat it will be inherbited. Yes, God can foresee d future if he wants to, but does d fact dat u are skill in music means dat u will have to play music 24hrs a day 7days a week 30days a month 365days a yr? If dat was to be what tym will u have to do other things what then d use of a brain like ours? What does it mean to be in God's image if not free will? Who tells God what to do? Destiny Yes, When God has an interest he can see to it, like in the case of Jesus coming that about 30 prophercies was given concerning his coming he saw to it that it came to past. Free will, what use is it giving human a mind to make decission if u will not let them use it? Who is there that will design a mobil toy car with a remote control and decided to control d car into a water ditch and den decided to smarsh the toy car for entering d ditch? Who controled d toy car? It will be an insanity to smarsh d car since u control it, but if d toy car was equip with d capacity to make rational decission like human brain and avoid ditches den for good reason that toycar poor use of it freewill in making decission should be look into den smarshing it can be rational. How den can i reconcil free will and destiny? One being destine and later judge for the action he was programme to perform? How den can i reconcil destiny and purnish by God? Who is fooling who? If my brain was design by God i sure believe that he is super wiser than i am, are u den attributing all dis irrational statement to him? D bible does not say dat human in general are destin. About satan, I thought people get a second name due to there occupation? A law man = lawer, a wood man = carpenter. God naver created satan but rather a powerful angel with free will, the names he is called is a narative of what he did (opposer, slanderer = satan and devil) how freewill agent use there freewill is up to them, but there will be an accounting. One thing all of u will have to put me through is this, when the bible said that God drove Adam and eve out of d garden of Eden did he later meet them outside d garden and enbrace them? Or that was abandonment? If d later was d case (abandon) why do u still blame God 4 all d bad things taking place? If it was not abandoment why was it necessary for Jesus christ to come for reconciliation? If only those carrying d bible will teach or get d sense of what d bible says then d issue we haggle about will not be necessery, but lots of evil has taken place and is still taking place in d name of d bible by greedy humans dat remember God when i need or in trouble, God is wiser. Selfish people.

@ Mr Anony
you are so fond of circular reasoning in your argument
recycling the same thing over and over in different words
what you lack in logic, you attempt to make up for in long letters.
that can only work in the church audience where hookline-and-sinker dogmatism is the norm
all you are saying now has been refuted in earlier posts
read very well and stop misquoting and going round in circles


@truthislight
pls learn to write concisely and legibly
also learn to paragraph long posts like this
very few people will have patient to read thru what you just posted even if you make lots of sense

cyrexx: @ Mr Anony
you are so fond of circular reasoning in your argument
recycling the same thing over and over in different words
what you lack in logic, you attempt to make up for in long letters.
that can only work in the church audience where hookline-and-sinker dogmatism is the norm
all you are saying now has been refuted in earlier posts
read very well and stop misquoting and going round in circles

Lol, The funny thing is that I would describe you in exactly the same way. All the same no lele. enjoy yourself.

Peace

Mr_Anony:

Lol, The funny thing is that I would describe you in exactly the same way. All the same no lele. enjoy yourself.

Peace

dear friend

you sha want to have the last word.
well, two can play that game.
i'm actually enjoying this and i can do this forever.
this how we learn and grow and discover the truth.

now lets go:

Mr_Anony:
Wrong. You are falsely assuming that God distributes sin or that Christianity causes people to sin then tells them about it's consequences then atheism comes out and tells people that there is no such thing as sin and hence no hell. This is dishonest.
Man has always known good and evil, all atheism is doing is saying there are no eternal consequences for good and evil and I am afraid this is psychopathic (in the true sense of the word). Atheism is not the cure at all because it seems to be saying "do whatever you can get away with". Convenient as this may sound, It is a very dangerous philosophy in itself and you know it.

here is where you misquote me, i didnt say god distribute sin. let me restate this in a parable form:
imagine a doctor that tells you that you have to buy his cure for a disease that is ravaging everybody and you are willing to buy this drug thinking it will solve all your problem, but shortly after payment you discover that it was the same doctor who had earlier distributed the disease. how would you feel if you can prevent the disease when next the doctor trying to get everyone infected with this disease.

well here is the meaning of my parable,
the doctor = christianity
the disease = guilt
drug = salvation (from a make-believe hell that they convince you that you deserve to go)
the drug price = surrender of your mind to religious control
disease spread = indoctrinating beliefs from childhood
disease prevention = rational thinking and rejection of religious dogma i.e. atheism

again nowhere did i imply "do whatever you wish and get away with". you christians feel hurt when you are slandered but you count it as nothing when you slander atheists.
atheism simply means absence of beliefs in gods and religions.
morality is a different ball game that we can speak volumes about
but suffice to say that we have morally good christians and bad christians
we also have morally good atheists and bad atheists
atheists are human beings with a heart and can even more humanitarian than some christians e.g. bill gates

now back to you statement on justice,
the hard reality is that this world is full of injustice and religion offers the fantasy and hope of justice in the next mythical afterlife.
but is burning billlions of non-bornagain christian souls in hell any kind of justice.
is it justice when an armed robber killed people all his life and shortly before his death he become bornagain and phew he spends eternity in heaven
or when a good man like Mahatma Ghandhi suddenly have all his humanitarian deeds erased and find himself in eternal hell for growing in a culture where the christian's god is not worshipped by the majority.
is that justice?
i know you christians have a religiously twisted sense of justice but please be objective for a minute and for once, be honest and dont try to defend your religion

do you really think eternal punishment is justice?

here is what you have been doing before: you will try to defend your god up to the maximum reasonable extent and when you run out of reasonable rationale, you play the creator-can-do-anything-he-likes card which jenwitemi has effectively debunked.
i hope you will be honest this time


peace and love, man

cyrexx:

dear friend

you sha want to have the last word.
well, two can play that game.
i'm actually enjoying this and i can do this forever.
this how we learn and grow and discover the truth.

now lets go:



here is where you misquote me, i didnt say god distribute sin. let me restate this in a parable form:
imagine a doctor that tells you that you have to buy his cure for a disease that is ravaging everybody and you are willing to buy this drug thinking it will solve all your problem, but shortly after payment you discover that it was the same doctor who had earlier distributed the disease. how would you feel if you can prevent the disease when next the doctor trying to get everyone infected with this disease.

well here is the meaning of my parable,
the doctor = christianity
the disease = guilt
drug = salvation (from a make-believe hell that they convince you that you deserve to go)
the drug price = surrender of your mind to religious control
disease spread = indoctrinating beliefs from childhood
disease prevention = rational thinking and rejection of religious dogma i.e. atheism

again nowhere did i imply "do whatever you wish and get away with". you christians feel hurt when you are slandered but you count it as nothing when you slander atheists.
atheism simply means absence of beliefs in gods and religions.
morality is a different ball game that we can speak volumes about
but suffice to say that we have morally good christians and bad christians
we also have morally good atheists and bad atheists
atheists are human beings with a heart and can even more humanitarian than some christians e.g. bill gates

now back to you statement on justice,
the hard reality is that this world is full of injustice and religion offers the fantasy and hope of justice in the next mythical afterlife.
but is burning billlions of non-bornagain christian souls in hell any kind of justice.
is it justice when an armed robber killed people all his life and shortly before his death he become bornagain and phew he spends eternity in heaven
or when a good man like Mahatma Ghandhi suddenly have all his humanitarian deeds erased and find himself in eternal hell for growing in a culture where the christian's god is not worshipped by the majority.
is that justice?
i know you christians have a religiously twisted sense of justice but please be objective for a minute and for once, be honest and dont try to defend your religion

do you really think eternal punishment is justice?

here is what you have been doing before: you will try to defend your god up to the maximum reasonable extent and when you run out of reasonable rationale, you play the creator-can-do-anything-he-likes card which jenwitemi has effectively debunked.
i hope you will be honest this time


peace and love, man

LOL, at the first part of your reply. Don't worry let's continue, I promise to let you have the last word in the end

Now your parable:

You are insinuating that Christianity spreads guilt and atheism remove guilt. Now this is flawed because the feeling of guilt is independent of any religion. Even one who says there is no God feels guilt in his heart when he does something wrong.
A better parable might sound thus that there is a disease, a doctor tells you about this disease and offers a cure - in fairness, you can argue that the price might be too high or that the doctor may have exaggerated the effects of the disease but to claim that there is no disease at all just because you don't want to pay for the cure is definitely the wrong way to go. At least you must provide a better cure (note I have purposely decided not to argue you misconceptions on the price of the cure and the spread of the disease).

If atheism is saying that the cause for guilt is religion i.e without religion there will be no guilt then atheism is indirectly saying "do whatever you like and don't feel guilty about it" in other words "do whatever you like as long as you don't get caught". It appears I didn't get you wrong after all.

Now about justice, Even in the human justice systems, one crime makes one a criminal, it doesn't matter how law abiding you have been up until the time one commits a crime (at best you can plead for a reduced sentence but punishment must still be served)........and there is really no reward for being a law abiding citizen other than you don't get to be punished.

In God's law court, it is all about mercy. There is a provision for your sentence to be waived all you have to do is claim that waiver and you won't even have to be judged at all + you even get rewarded for being in the clear. when you refuse that waiver, then you have to defend yourself based on Gods law and if it turns out that you have broken the law, you face punishment.

Mr_Anony:

LOL, at the first part of your reply. Don't worry let's continue, I promise to let you have the last word in the end

Now your parable:

You are insinuating that Christianity spreads guilt and atheism remove guilt. Now this is flawed because the feeling of guilt is independent of any religion. Even one who says there is no God feels guilt in his heart when he does something wrong.
A better parable might sound thus that there is a disease, a doctor tells you about this disease and offers a cure - in fairness, you can argue that the price might be too high or that the doctor may have exaggerated the effects of the disease but to claim that there is no disease at all just because you don't want to pay for the cure is definitely the wrong way to go. At least you must provide a better cure (note I have purposely decided not to argue you misconceptions on the price of the cure and the spread of the disease).
If atheism is saying that the cause for guilt is religion i.e without religion there will be no guilt then atheism is indirectly saying "do whatever you like and don't feel guilty about it" in other words "do whatever you like as long as you don't get caught". It appears I didn't get you wrong after all.

You did not or could not prove wrong my parable about religion bringing a make-up guilt of deserving hell.

can you explain your parable like i did mine?

Mr_Anony:
Now about justice, Even in the human justice systems, one crime makes one a criminal, it doesn't matter how law abiding you have been up until the time one commits a crime (at best you can plead for a reduced sentence but punishment must still be served)........and there is really no reward for being a law abiding citizen other than you don't get to be punished.

In God's law court, it is all about mercy. There is a provision for your sentence to be waived all you have to do is claim that waiver and you won't even have to be judged at all + you even get rewarded for being in the clear. when you refuse that waiver, then you have to defend yourself based on Gods law and if it turns out that you have broken the law, you face punishment.

like you have always done, you tactically dodge my propositions and you refuse to answer these questions

but is burning billlions of non-bornagain christian souls in hell any kind of justice. yes or no

is it justice when an armed robber killed people all his life and shortly before his death he become bornagain and phew he spends eternity in heaven. yes or no

or when a good man like Mahatma Ghandhi suddenly have all his humanitarian deeds erased and find himself in eternal hell for growing in a culture where the christian's god is not worshipped by the majority.
is that justice? yes or no

do you really think eternal punishment is justice? yes or no


additionally

does making the message of salvation difficult for people to accept because of cultural factors and basic common sense, therefore guaranteeing that billions will end up in this torture chambers and lakes of fire and brimstone forever. is that justice or not

have you ever put your finger in a burning fire for 5 seconds. can you do this to a living being, no matter how less he/it is to you?
can you put the whole body in it for 5 seconds.
can you put the whole body there for a year.
can you do this for one trillion years
if you can do this, then dont talk about morality, you and Yahweh are most wicked entity i ever know


and mind you dont play the creator-can-do-anything-he-likes card, which had been debunked earlier. its just illogical and such a being get no true adoration.

And what is life without knowledge, though? Life is worth nothing without knowledge. Which is why sentient beings have minds and inquisitiveness in their genes.

Uyi Iredia:
III) That good and evil are useless where there's no life (or existence). And that what really matters is life. Hence life is preferable to knowledge whether such knowledge amounts to good or evil. Dead people generally can't complain about evil only the living who witnesses. Hope you notice that God can be apathetic to good or evil as seen when He destroyed lots of Israelites for infringing on His laws or struck a man dead for the innocent act of trying to uphold the ark.

. . . More to come

Sincerely, i wish d bible has not been misrepresented d way it has been then most of the comment here would not be necessery.

As it is, greedy miracle, prosperity seekers who have naver really love God will pick a line from d bible completely out of context and use it and others will follow through.

A look at Isaiah 46:9,10 and considering also Isaiah 45:18 gives the sense of what d context is about, the mention of telling d future is about d future of planet earth, that God created d earth from d beginning to be inherbited and that from d begining he God is telling the end that the earth will be inherbited. Here d issue was planet earth begining and end.
When reference are made on issues in d bible without taking the context into consideration then d sense will b lost,

however, dat is not to say that God can not tell d future if he wants to, but does d fact that one is skill in music means dat u will play music 24hrs a day, 7days a week, 30days a month, 365days a yr? If that is to be so, what time will u have to do other things? If God were to ensure we follow a destiny, of what use then does giving us a brain like ours serve? In what way are we then in Gods image if not in freewill? Who tells God what to do? Why does the bible say that there are two options befor a man if he has no option of choice and is destin?

When God has an interest he sure do follow it through like in the case of Jesus coming about 30 prophercies were given and he ensures they all came to past.
So, God can foretell d future if he so desires, but i cant see d logic in giving human a mind to make decission and at d same time not allow them to use it, of what use will it be?
Consider, u build a mobil toycar with a remote control and decided to control it into a pit after which u fetch the toycar and smarsh it for entering d pit.
First, who controled d toy car? Will it not be considered insanity to smarsh d toycar since u control it? But if d toy car was equip to make rational decission like human brain can do and be able to avoid pits, then for Good reason that toycar poor use of it freewill in making Good decission should be look into and even smarshing it can be considered rational.

I then find it defficult to reconcile freewill and destiny, someone bein destin and later being judge for the action he is being programme to perform, not to mention destiny and eternal punishment by God. Who is fooling who?
If my brain was design by God i sure believe that he is super wiser than i am to make such blonders, nature shows he is too wise for such error. D error is Human.

Are u then attributing all this sort of statement posted here to him?

D bible does not say that human in General are destin,

About satan, i thought people get a second name due to there occupation? A law man = lawer, a wood man = a carpenter, God naver created satan but rather he created a powerful angel with freewill, the names he is called are a narative of what he did (opposer, slanderer = satan and devil) how freewill agent uses there freewill is up to them, but there will be an accounting

One thing u all will help to put me through is this.
When d bible said that God drove adam and eve away from d garden of Eden, did he later went after them outside the garden and embrace them and there children or that it ment they were abandon? If it ment abandonment why are u attributing blame to God for all d bad that has taken place?
If it was not abandonment why was it necessary for Jesus christ to come for reconcilliation and show d way?

If only those carrying the bible will teach or get the sense of what d bible says then d issues we haggle about will not be necessary, but lots of evil has taken place in d name of d bible by greedy humans dat only remember God when they are in need of money or in trouble. God is wiser. Selfish people.

cyrexx:

You did not or could not prove wrong my parable about religion bringing a make-up guilt of deserving hell.

can you explain your parable like i did mine?

Read again, it was the explanation of your parable as you gave it to me that I interpreted back to you.

like you have always done, you tactically dodge my propositions and you refuse to answer these questions

but is burning billlions of non-bornagain christian souls in hell any kind of justice. yes or no

Is putting a thief in jail justice? Justice is that the criminal gets punished, the magnitude of the punishment is a question of mercy. besides being born-again is a provision of God's mercy. A soul goes to hell for actual sins. If you are completely stainless by yourself, you don't need to be born-again......problem is that no one is. so bearing this in mind, the answer to your question is[b] yes[/b].

is it justice when an armed robber killed people all his life and shortly before his death he become bornagain and phew he spends eternity in heaven. yes or no

Yes........consider it that he has been granted amnesty and he accepted it.

or when a good man like Mahatma Ghandhi suddenly have all his humanitarian deeds erased and find himself in eternal hell for growing in a culture where the christian's god is not worshipped by the majority.
is that justice? yes or no

Is Ghandi truly a good man devoid of any evil whatsoever? if yes he will go to heaven. If no and he has been granted the same amnesty granted to the robber but he rejects it, then he will go to hell. Yes it is justice

do you really think eternal punishment is justice? yes or no

Here you are seeking an emotional response. Do you think eternal reward is justice? If eternal reward is offered, then it is perfectly logical for eternal punishment to be the alternative. Yes eternal punishment is justice as long as there is eternal reward as it's alternative

additionally

does making the message of salvation difficult for people to accept because of cultural factors and basic common sense, therefore guaranteeing that billions will end up in this torture chambers and lakes of fire and brimstone forever. is that justice or not

No it is not justice if you put it that way. However, that is not the case...

The message of salvation is easy and is not made difficult to accept in any way else it wouldn't have spread as easily as it did across cultures without the use of violent force.
Besides the message of salvation is more of a promise of everlasting life and a loving God than it is about hell and you know this.
Nobody will lay down his life just to threaten another person. In fact it was martyrdom of Christians that won many people to Christ. Nobody can truly become born-again under duress. It just doesn't work that way.

have you ever put your finger in a burning fire for 5 seconds. can you do this to a living being, no matter how less he/it is to you?
can you put the whole body in it for 5 seconds.
can you put the whole body there for a year.
can you do this for one trillion years
if you can do this, then dont talk about morality, you and Yahweh are most wicked entity i ever know

The answer is no I can't but then I also can't do the following either

Again it appears you are dubiously trying to pass off emotional sentiment as logic. Well, there are two sides to every coin, let us balance things out:

Have you ever felt complete joy and happiness for five seconds?
Now Imagine that feeling of contentment for trillions upon trillions of years.
Can you give someone this gift of happiness for nothing?
What can anyone possibly do to deserve so much happiness especially if the person is literally as important as an ant to you.
Now can you do this for someone who beat you mercilessly pierced your hands and feet with nails and stabbed you with a spear?
Now what if the person rejects your gift and spits on it, will you still plead with him to accept it?

If you can do this then you and Yahweh are the most merciful entities I know

and mind you dont play the creator-can-do-anything-he-likes card, which had been debunked earlier. its just illogical and such a being get no true adoration.

No it is not illogical that a creator has the right to destroy his creation. It is only an emotional objection from the created because it doesn't want to be destroyed. Sorry it has not been logically debunked.

truthislight:
I then find it defficult to reconcile freewill and destiny, someone bein destin and later being judge for the action he is being programme to perform, not to mention destiny and eternal punishment by God. Who is fooling who?

@ anony
instead of answering my questions, you replied by my questions with questions. so typical of you, Mr Anony
all your questions have answers that i will gladly supply
but you avoided my questions and expect me to answer yours. NO WAY. that is ojoro


e.g. i explained my parable in great deat details giving the full meaning of each of my symbols, while you did nothing like that

do that and lets be on the same playing field


once again


explain your parable like i did mine?

is burning billlions of non-bornagain christian souls in hell any kind of justice. yes or no

is it justice when an armed robber killed people all his life and shortly before his death he become bornagain and phew he spends eternity in heaven. yes or no

or when a good man like Mahatma Ghandhi suddenly have all his humanitarian deeds erased and find himself in eternal hell for growing in a culture where the christian's god is not worshipped by the majority.
is that justice? yes or no

do you really think eternal punishment is justice? yes or no



does making the message of salvation difficult for people to accept because of cultural factors and basic common sense, therefore guaranteeing that billions will end up in this torture chambers and lakes of fire and brimstone forever. is that justice or not

have you ever put your finger in a burning fire for 5 seconds. can you do this to a living being, no matter how less he/it is to you?
can you put the whole body in it for 5 seconds.
can you put the whole body there for a year.
can you do this for one trillion years.

just a yes or no, no long explanations or questions for questions


do this watch me logically debunk ALL your propositions and any neutral non-biased mind will agree with me

cyrexx:





@ anony
instead of answering my questions, you replied by my questions with questions. so typical of you, Mr Anony
all your questions have answers that i will gladly supply
but you avoided my questions and expect me to answer yours. NO WAY. that is ojoro


e.g. i explained my parable in great deat details giving the full meaning of each of my symbols, while you did nothing like that

do that and lets be on the same playing field


once again


explain your parable like i did mine?

is burning billlions of non-bornagain christian souls in hell any kind of justice. yes or no

is it justice when an armed robber killed people all his life and shortly before his death he become bornagain and phew he spends eternity in heaven. yes or no

or when a good man like Mahatma Ghandhi suddenly have all his humanitarian deeds erased and find himself in eternal hell for growing in a culture where the christian's god is not worshipped by the majority.
is that justice? yes or no

do you really think eternal punishment is justice? yes or no



does making the message of salvation difficult for people to accept because of cultural factors and basic common sense, therefore guaranteeing that billions will end up in this torture chambers and lakes of fire and brimstone forever. is that justice or not

have you ever put your finger in a burning fire for 5 seconds. can you do this to a living being, no matter how less he/it is to you?
can you put the whole body in it for 5 seconds.
can you put the whole body there for a year.
can you do this for one trillion years.

just a yes or no, no long explanations or questions for questions


do this watch me logically debunk ALL your propositions and any neutral non-biased mind will agree with me

My friend, the reason why I haven't answered your questions with a simple yes or no is because your questions themselves are skewed and you know it. You are asking questions that already presuppose that God is evil. and you want me to give you a simple yes or no so you can jump on the soundbite. I am sorry it doesn't work that way. It is like asking

Isn't it evil to lie? yes or no
Isn't cyrexx evil because he lies? yes or no

(the problem with these questions is that I have already condemned you before asking. You would naturally answer by trying to show me that yes lying is evil but you are not totally evil because you lie occasionally).
Those set of questions were simply not logical questions. They are dubious questions with the intention of leading me to the answer you want.
Ask a wholesome question and I will give you a wholesome answer. Besides if you read my answers, where I stand is quite clear.


As for the parable, I didn't really propose a new parable at all, I just used the same objects of your parable to explain to you where you were wrong. Please look at it again.

You said:

here is where you misquote me, i didnt say god distribute sin. let me restate this in a parable form:
imagine[b] a doctor that tells you that you have to buy his cure for a disease[/b] that is ravaging everybody and you are willing to buy this drug thinking it will solve all your problem, but shortly after payment you discover that it was the same doctor who had earlier distributed the disease. how would you feel if you can prevent the disease when next the doctor trying to get everyone infected with this disease.

well here is the meaning of my parable,
the doctor = christianity
the disease = guilt
drug = salvation (from a make-believe hell that they convince you that you deserve to go)
the drug price = surrender of your mind to religious control
disease spread = indoctrinating beliefs from childhood
disease prevention = rational thinking and rejection of religious dogma i.e. atheism

I said:

Now your parable:

You are insinuating that Christianity spreads guilt and atheism remove guilt. Now this is flawed because the feeling of guilt is independent of any religion. Even one who says there is no God feels guilt in his heart when he does something wrong.
A better parable might sound thus that there is a disease, a doctor (insert Christianity) tells you about this disease and offers a cure (insert Salvation) - in fairness, you can argue that the price might be too high or that the doctor may have exaggerated the effects of the disease but to claim that there is no disease at all just because you don't want to pay for the cure is definitely the wrong way to go. At least you must provide a better cure (note I have purposely decided not to argue you misconceptions on the price of the cure and the spread of the disease).
If atheism is saying that the cause for guilt is religion i.e without religion there will be no guilt then atheism is indirectly saying "do whatever you like and don't feel guilty about it" in other words "do whatever you like as long as you don't get caught". It appears I didn't get you wrong after all.

@ cyrexx
i believe with more facts u will find out that u are really taking side with d bible (God) on dis particular issues of eternal punishment.

pls, read Rev 20:13,14 right away,
did u notice in vers 13 that hell gave up all d dead in it? Then while hell was still empty of dead person in vers 14 hell was then thrown into fire? Destroyed? D question, with empty hell put in fire were would dis bad people b burnt eternally? Dis is in agreement with Jesus words at John 5:28,29, "all the dead shall come out"
U see, God is not sadistic afterall.

D problem is with dis people opening churches and d othodox church at d start.
God is super intelligent and thinking person cant just accept d lies spread by christiandom off d bible.
Peace.

@ truthislight
thanks a lot
what a big relief to finally find a religious person whose sense of morality is not totally screwed by religious dogma to see nothing wrong with torturing a living being in excruciating non-stop pain for trillions and trillions of years.

Even though i'm not religious anymore. I agree with your description of a possibility of a creator god.

@Cyrexx to fulfil all righteousness and to be benevolent to you even though you are not playing fair and accusing me of ojoro on top, I have now edited my answers to your questions in my original reply to your post giving you the answers as you want. (Answers in red). I hope it is now to your satisfaction.

@ mr anony


thank you.

cyrexx: @ truthislight
thanks a lot
what a big relief to finally find a religious person whose sense of morality is not totally screwed by religious dogma to see nothing wrong with torturing a living being in excruciating non-stop pain for trillions and trillions of years.

Even though i'm not religious anymore. I agree with your description of a possibility of a creator god.

truthislight: @ cyrexx
i believe with more facts u will find out that u are really taking side with d bible (God) on dis particular issues of eternal punishment.

pls, read Rev 20:13,14 right away,
did u notice in vers 13 that hell gave up all d dead in it? Then while hell was still empty of dead person in vers 14 hell was then thrown into fire? Destroyed? D question, with empty hell put in fire were would dis bad people b burnt eternally? Dis is in agreement with Jesus words at John 5:28,29, "all the dead shall come out"
U see, God is not sadistic afterall.

D problem is with dis people opening churches and d othodox church at d start.
God is super intelligent and thinking person cant just accept d lies spread by christiandom off d bible.
Peace.

My friends, stop trying to make God convenient for yourselves.

@truthislight, it is funny how you can accuse preachers misquoting scripture and yet turn around and do exactly the same thing. You quoted Revelations 20:13-14. Why did you leave out verse 15.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:12-15

I know hell is a very terrible thing but don't deny it just so that you can feel better about yourself and about God. Do not make excuses for God. If you want to glorify Him, glorify Him as He is or don't glorify Him at all, just don't edit Him to suit your tastes.

That is a great reply mr_anoy. They seem to pick what they like about god and use it while ignoring the ones they don't like.

Marcion of pontus was right. The god in d old testament cannot be the same god in the new testament. People will always ignore the evidence pointing to this.

Area_boy: That is a great reply mr_anoy. They seem to pick what they like about god and use it while ignoring the ones they don't like.

Marcion of pontus was right. The god in d old testament cannot be the same god in the new testament. People will always ignore the evidence pointing to this.

Ehm.........sorry, but I don't quite agree with Marcion. I am convinced it is indeed the same God and I see no evidence in the bible stating otherwise.

My stance is that you can love Him or hate Him or even deny His existence just don't try to change who God is, else you are not referring to the same God as described in the bible but another of your own invention.

Far from it, not my own invention.

If you read the Old and New testament properly, you'll realise that one is very harsh and vindictive even merciless to an extent where as the other is all forgiving and tolerant. Since we all agree that god never changes, y then did he change is approach and differ in two different testaments?? Part of the reason why the Jewish bible (old testament) does not take on board Jesus and his teachings

@anony
Good, thats good of u atleast u wish to use the bible as ur reference point, which i think should, the bible should speak and not motals that are here today and 2mrw are no more.

Now, have u ever ask what happened to hedes (hell) and dead when they are thrown into the lake of fire? It means there will be no more "dead" and no need for hedes (grave) what did d bible use to represent this action of no more dead? = fire.
If fire is use to represent a permanent removal of dead and grave why not get the sense thereof of how fire is use in d bible? Permanent removal. That is why after that Rev21:4 "said and dead will be no more" meaning if there will be no more dead then there will be no need for grave and fire was use for this removal of dead. Using fire as permanent removal clears away all the confussion that has been created by christiandom. Also, those that God will not bring back to life he always simply us fire reference to them = gone permanently. Ask yourself, hell, hedes, grave,can it be literary tormented in fire? Is it possible? Also dead that will be cast into fire is it a material substance that literal fire can born? Does it exist as an entity or it is a condition?
Peace.

Mr_Anony:
My stance is that you can love Him or hate Him or even deny His existence just don't try to change who God is, else you are not referring to the same God as described in the bible but another of your own invention.

your stance is nothing more than what it is - just your stance. no proof of anything

the bible is not a reliable book, let alone the omniscient product from a so-called omniscient being

it is just another written mythologies similar to many other religion's mythologies, infact inspired by other mythologies e.g. Babylonian, Roman, Grecian etc you will know this if you do any research at all about your holy book which was later compiled, edited and selected by the second century roman catholics
e.g the concept of soul's immortality and Hades underworld ( which became the christian hell doctrine)was borrowed from the Greeks, do your research and prove me wrong

besides, it contains so many contradictions
visit http://ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/?t=contra to see for yourself several contradictions it contains

if you want to base your life on it, you are very free but it proves nothing of its absolute validity

you are not different from a moslem who based his life on the quran
or any other person who base his life on any other beliefs

Mr_Anony:



My friends, stop trying to make God convenient for yourselves.

@truthislight, it is funny how you can accuse preachers misquoting scripture and yet turn around and do exactly the same thing. You quoted Revelations 20:13-14. Why did you leave out verse 15.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:12-15

I know hell is a very terrible thing but don't deny it just so that you can feel better about yourself and about God. Do not make excuses for God. If you want to glorify Him, glorify Him as He is or don't glorify Him at all, just don't edit Him to suit your tastes.

Is that fire a literal fire??

If death and hell will be thrown into it will it still be literal??

Satan will be in it too.....

Fire signifies total destruction my bro...

Nothing more noting less.....

Didn't u read in d prophets that's God even detests when d isrealites roasted there kids in fire??

It was a detestable thing to God...

So how wuld God in return do that to sinful humans....

Infact if persons will literally be burning in hell for all eternity,then it means everlasting life is also a reward to sinners......

To an extent many in d hell will become used to the fire and enjoy it @ d end of it all....

Evil doers will cease to exist,destroyed beyond ressurection....

Second death(Lake of fire)

If adam and eve d sole instigators of our problem aren't in a burning hell then why should we there progeny suffer that kind of purnishment...??

@area_boy
u b area boy through through, u will here christiandom teach trinity that is not a bible base teaching and u let it confuse u what then the use of the fine brain u have?
Men, read more of the bible urself and ask questions. Quoting wrong teaching does not say well of u. Christiandom is d problem of this world.

truthislight: @anony
Good, thats good of u atleast u wish to use the bible as ur reference point, which i think should, the bible should speak and not motals that are here today and 2mrw are no more.

Now, have u ever ask what happened to hedes (hell) and dead when they are thrown into the lake of fire? It means there will be no more "dead" and no need for hedes (grave) what did d bible use to represent this action of no more dead? = fire.
If fire is use to represent a permanent removal of dead and grave why not get the sense thereof of how fire is use in d bible? Permanent removal. That is why after that Rev21:4 "said and dead will be no more" meaning if there will be no more dead then there will be no need for grave and fire was use for this removal of dead. Using fire as permanent removal clears away all the confussion that has been created by christiandom. Also, those that God will not bring back to life he always simply us fire reference to them = gone permanently. Ask yourself, hell, hedes, grave,can it be literary tormented in fire? Is it possible? Also dead that will be cast into fire is it a material substance that literal fire can born? Does it exist as an entity or it is a condition?
Peace.

In answer to your question (in bold), read from verse 10..........

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:10-15

No one says it must be literally physical fire. but one thing is sure, it is a place of everlasting torment.

cyrexx:

your stance is nothing more than what it is - just your stance. no proof of anything

the bible is not a reliable book, let alone the omniscient product from a so-called omniscient being

it is just another written mythologies similar to many other religion's mythologies, infact inspired by other mythologies e.g. Babylonian, Roman, Grecian etc you will know this if you do any research at all about your holy book which was later compiled, edited and selected by the second century roman catholics
e.g the concept of soul's immortality and Hades underworld ( which became the christian hell doctrine)was borrowed from the Greeks, do your research and prove me wrong

besides, it contains so many contradictions
visit http://ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/?t=contra to see for yourself several contradictions it contains

if you want to base your life on it, you are very free but it proves nothing of its absolute validity

you are not different from a moslem who based his life on the quran
or any other person who base his life on any other beliefs

Now you are doing exactly the same thing you are accusing me of. How does asking you not to adulterate the biblical God amount to a stance that needs proof or proves anything?

Mr_Anony:

Now you are doing exactly the same thing you are accusing me of. How does asking you not to adulterate the biblical God amount to a stance that needs proof or proves anything?

your answer is simple
it is because never has a book produced more confusion than the bible! There are hundreds of denominations and sects, all using the "inspired Scriptures" to prove their conflicting doctrines.

Why all the confusion? Shouldn't a document that was "divinely inspired" by an omniscient and omnipotent deity be as clear as possible?

"If the trumpet give an uncertain sound," Paul wrote in I Corinthians 14:8, "who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air." Exactly! Paul should have practiced what he preached. For almost two millennia, the bible has been producing a most "uncertain sound."

The problem is not with human limitations, as you will soon claim. The problem is the bible itself. People who are free of religious bias notice that the bible contains hundreds of discrepancies.

cyrexx:

your answer is simple
it is because never has a book produced more confusion than the bible! There are hundreds of denominations and sects, all using the "inspired Scriptures" to prove their conflicting doctrines.

Why all the confusion? Shouldn't a document that was "divinely inspired" by an omniscient and omnipotent deity be as clear as possible?

"If the trumpet give an uncertain sound," Paul wrote in I Corinthians 14:8, "who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air." Exactly! Paul should have practiced what he preached. For almost two millennia, the bible has been producing a most "uncertain sound."

The problem is not with human limitations, as you will soon claim. The problem is the bible itself. People who are free of religious bias notice that the bible contains hundreds of discrepancies.

I thought we've been through this before............."did you just call me fat and ugly?"

(The words are there for you to read and judge for yourself. Read them and stop criticizing other people's interpretations of a text you haven't bothered to read)

Mr_Anony:

I thought we've been through this before............."did you just call me fat and ugly?"

(The words are there for you to read and judge for yourself. Read them and stop criticizing other people's interpretations of a text you haven't bothered to read)

funny, you think you know me and the degree of the bible i have read.
just for your info, i have read the bible through and through and i used to preach it for many many years.
i have all the experience of any true christians, even the so-called born-again experience. its just plain psychology, looking back now, i cant help but chuckle
you christians just assumed you know bible more than atheists or everybody else
but many of you do not read more than what your preacher fed into your mouth
read the bible thru and thru for yourself and dont cherry-pick the verses you like.
wrong.

@cyrexx
well, its rether unfortunate that christiandom has serve this purpose to the bible. Well, befor the council that they claim they cananonise the bible what was the early christians using? Is it posible that those christian that even died for there faith had no reason to keep the holy writings together? I saw were apotle paul ask a congregation in galatia to read the leter he sent to corinth, if they where not gethered as holy writings how would that be possible? Catholics claim they put the bible together, how much lack of faith on God then do u want them to show on God's ability to protect his word? Meaning without them it would have been lost. Hahaha.

U are already affected by this act of christiandom so i can hadly say much to u than to say that a second open mind examination devoid of christiandom dogma should be attempted.

pauls leter to the theselonian at 1thess 2:13, the brothers receive the word from paul as God's word, why then will they not keep the laters as such? Why would words as important as that be left unattended to till about 5 century later?
D fact that u are here shows how important dis issues are to u, just dont let christiandom lead u to abandon the bible.
Peace