African “religions” are no less sacred and no more sinister than the foreign imported beliefs but have been popularly perceived and reduced as "fetishes", "idolatry" ,"black magic", largely “polytheistic” and spiritually unevolved, lacking its own profound spiritual dimension.

Denounced as obscene, discarded by many, substituted for another in a manner that rendered these imported bloodguilt faiths as an antidote to the seemingly “backward” traditional systems on the ”Dark Continent”.

Today many Africans have less knowledge concerning the traditional systems in their full capacity in their original packages against the unattractive caricatures that have been widely portrayed.

However there is no denying there were some reprehensible practices on the continent; there’s no denying this at all because no society is exempt from ever harbouring any deplorable beliefs but the malpractices in Africa have been used to summarize entire belief systems.

Now I wonder and doubt if it has ever been seriously considered if these systems could have still been enough minus the "malpractices" that formed a component but not the whole.

Was it possible to modify the ancient systems instead of replacing them completely?
Could the systems not have been reformed?
Did African Religions need to be entirely substituted?
Was our best bet at “salvation” only via an imported system(s)?

Well different areas had different belief systems - some were actually a bit tame as far as sacrifices and other ugly practices.

I think you'd first need to list the different belief systems among different groups, their main components and characteristics, their pros and cons, their adaptability and possible relevance to the modern day, what wisdom there was in them, what very faulty ideas they contained, and what ideas would be hard to accept as even a little plausible in modern times. Since there are a lot of different African religions and many seem quite involved, you might want to focus on a small number (at first anyway).

Also foreign religions are different. If someone had colonized us and spread some form of Buddhism among us instead of the two main religions prevalent in Africa today, it would probably be hard to argue that - for many groups of Africans - some sort of improvement wouldn't have occurred in some way.

As for the Abrahamic religions, apart from some of the decent wisdom and moral advice contained in them, they're basically myth mixed with history and philosophy to me and they impose a distorted worldview on both those who are at the core of those religions and those who are on the periphery (such as converts and descendants of recent converts). Also, why blindly follow Semitic/Middle Eastern philosophy/myth instead of developing one's own or continuing where one's ancestors left off?

But of course if people are told that they're condemned to hell if they don't follow those religions, then there's not much one can do to prevent the spread of these religions and their replacement of the old belief systems. I'm not sure whether there were any African religions that threatened hellfire if certain deities weren't followed and obeyed. Nobody wants their friends, family and (good) neighbors to go to hell so once one person is a believer of an Abrahamic religion (although I think there is no hell in Judaism, but there is paradise which only the 'righteous' can experience), many others will soon be believers. I don't think people will revert back to the old belief systems - even if they were updated to fit modern times - in significant numbers unless a drastic break with the outside world somehow occurs.

Yes. After slavery and violence, the most effective way to subjugate people is through psychological means and religion proved to be the most effective method. Since the white people had proven to be more economically powerful and much less ignorant of nature, they had already proven to the indigenous cultures that they were culturally superior so selling them the white version of god was easy. "if their god helped them conquer us, he must be the true god".....chinua Achebe expressed this sentiment in things fall apart when the white priest went into the shrine of a feared local god and destroyed it.

Even though we are in the "information age", black people still follow these mythologies blindly so imagine the ancestors who were a lot more ignorant. I guess it was like taking candy from a baby.
Now, some positives did come out of imperialism, but those positives could have come about in a more equitable way intead of all the benefits going to the whites.

The most damage is done by the religions they brought, because they aim for the "supernatural" while condemning the natural under threats of hell. When views like that are what forms these people's philosophies on life, how do you expect them to deviate from it? In an ironic way, these religions are what salves the people whose societies have been damaged by the imperialism and colonialism that introduced the religions in the first place. Gift and a curse.

Also, they really didn't do away with the old beliefs entirely, they just cast some of the characters as antagonists to their god. eg Eshu is now synonymous with the christian devil in yoruba christianity.

They did the same thing on the plantations. Take their religion and culture, give them white names and jesus. Also, tell them that Jesus says that slaves should obey their masters..........and you'll go to "heaven" when you're dead.

PhysicsQED: Also foreign religions are different. If someone had colonized us and spread some form of Buddhism among us instead of the two main religions prevalent in Africa today, it would probably be hard to argue that - for many groups of Africans - some sort of improvement wouldn't have occurred in some way.

.......Buddhism is just more magical thinking. It would have done as much good as the Abrahamic myths. Instead of following MOGs or Imams, they would probably be chanting in front of some fat bastard preacher/temple priest who would claim he is a descendant of Buddha.

If the foreigners had come with the Avesta instead of the bible and the other crazy book, most of them would be pledging fealty to Zoroaster and there would still be economic disparity because of the imperialism that took place and the refusal to change society to a more progressive one. And they would laugh when the "death and ressurrection" of jesus is taken as the infallible truth by some just like the muslims now laugh at the trinity while the christians are forever condemning the "religion of peace". Hell, they'll probably call Jesus a "false prophet" or a "demon of death" and they wouldn't be running around defending their prophet's "honor" violently.

@PhysicsQED

Thanks for your comment.. I agree with everything you posted, but I still think lack of education and knowledge about our traditional African religions are some of the reasons why most people don't want to be associated with them... I think if people are educated about the African religions, it will grow - just as atheism (which I find very redundant) is growing... Heck, many foreigners are now converting to traditional African belief system, yet we Africans are still stuck in the colonial mentality, and enslaving our minds to anything foreign... The rise of atheism among people of African descent is something that will be as problematic in future as what Abrahamic religions are right now... The future looks very bleak!!

I'll also like to know what you think about Ifa... I've been trying to study, and doing some research about it (because that's probably the only African belief system I can relate to, and practice easily by myself IMO).

Very dear friend.
I will try to answer.
First, I understand that both Africa and America, religions have been imposed by the conquerors. They have not chosen the Americans or the Africans have been imposed.

With respect to traditional religions.
It plays an important role, discredit yourself mentioned: the conqueror, discredited cults, associating with black magic and the Jewish-Christian devil. The traditional African rites have nothing demonic or witchcraft.
But (and this is my answer) I do not think there are many things that change liturgically African cults, I understand that it would need to be aware of what they mean, remove them from the figure of the devil and witchcraft, and explain to people what they mean.
Following traditional religious systems, there is a rich tradition and philosophy ... that should be transmitted. But that could only be done if there were religious formed, if you abandon the "practice of ritual in repetitive and non-rational ', if there were priests with a degree of intellectual training to enable them to discuss on equal terms with their detractors.
I think it would be the ultimate solution, but at least we would be taking a big step.
Hope this helps.
Please accept my deep affection.

Martian: Yes. After slavery and violence, the most effective way to subjugate people is through psychological means and religion proved to be the most effective method. Since the white people had proven to be more economically powerful and much less ignorant of nature, they had already proven to the indigenous cultures that they were culturally superior so selling them the white version of god was easy. "if their god helped them conquer us, he must be the true god".....chinua Achebe expressed this sentiment in things fall apart when the white priest went into the shrine of a feared local god and destroyed it.

Even though we are in the "information age", black people still follow these mythologies blindly so imagine the ancestors who were a lot more ignorant. I guess it was like taking candy from a baby.
Now, some positives did come out of imperialism, but those positives could have come about in a more equitable way intead of all the benefits going to the whites.

The most damage is done by the religions they brought, because they aim for the "supernatural" while condemning the natural under threats of hell. When views like that are what forms these people's philosophies on life, how do you expect them to deviate from it? In an ironic way, these religions are what salves the people whose societies have been damaged by the imperialism and colonialism that introduced the religions in the first place. Gift and a curse.

Also, they really didn't do away with the old beliefs entirely, they just cast some of the characters as antagonists to their god. eg Eshu is now synonymous with the christian devil in yoruba christianity.

They did the same thing on the plantations. Take their religion and culture, give them white names and jesus. Also, tell them that Jesus says that slaves should obey their masters..........and you'll go to "heaven" when you're dead.

His presentation is edges very interesting .
It is unlikely that we all agree, but his vision is very similar to mine in different ways.
A hug.

I feel honoured that PhysicsQED graced my thread...I know I’m gonna learn something new by the time I finish reading your post lol.

PhysicsQED: Well different areas had different belief systems - some were actually a bit tame as far as sacrifices and other ugly practices.

Unfortunately there were some ugly practises however I believe there is a tendency (at least in the past which has affected the understanding of these religions today) to interpret African traditional religions from a local point or from specific practises (most often the most negative ones) thereby generalizing whole systems. I think it’d be more interesting to consider if some of these systems could still operate without some of the more heinous practises at least allowing a reformation if at all possible.

I think you'd first need to list the different belief systems among different groups, their main components and characteristics, their pros and cons, their adaptability and possible relevance to the modern day, what wisdom there was in them, what very faulty ideas they contained, and what ideas would be hard to accept as even a little plausible in modern times. Since there are a lot of different African religions and many seem quite involved, you might want to focus on a small number (at first anyway).

I understand and I agree with your suggestions in analyzing the traditional beliefs although perhaps I wanted to address and counter the so called “inferiority” of the continent’s religions.
However I would say the biggest advantage to any religion is if it is indeed adaptable (which fortunately many African religions may qualify as at least to an extent).
I also believe studying African religions in a comparative context may also assist in its understanding.

Benin Republic would be an appropriate nation to review in this regards.

Also foreign religions are different. If someone had colonized us and spread some form of Buddhism among us instead of the two main religions prevalent in Africa today, it would probably be hard to argue that - for many groups of Africans - some sort of improvement wouldn't have occurred in some way.

With different religions there’s different ideologies and it may just be dependent on how beneficial certain ideology is at a particular period but the presence of any religion in a certain region would partly be judged by its trajectory not only its contents (especially if the spread contradicts it) or even the seeming improvements it may have offered.

As for the Abrahamic religions, apart from some of the decent wisdom and moral advice contained in them, they're basically myth mixed with history and philosophy to me and they impose a distorted worldview on both those who are at the core of those religions and those who are on the periphery (such as converts and descendants of recent converts). Also, why blindly follow Semitic/Middle Eastern philosophy/myth instead of developing one's own or continuing where one's ancestors left off?

These religions have posed as divine articles when it’s not so much divorced from the culture it was conceived in...in fact serving to reflect that culture and its people’s human experience so how then should the experience, emotions, philosophy of African people be made redundant through the demotion of their beliefs because it does not on the surface mirror these Abrahamic faiths. I find it highly preposterous and a rip-off that as Africans our value is only attached to our conformity (conversion) unlike a Jew who is automatically relevant if we are to adhere to these imported faiths.

As regards to your final sentence I am of the same opinion. It’s not also about conserving but constructing African identities in a contemporary society. One may notice even that some converted Africans syncretize their traditional beliefs with their adopted imported faith; inviting old elements within the new models. I guess there are elements that some may still find valuable.

But of course if people are told that they're condemned to hell if they don't follow those religions, then there's not much one can do to prevent the spread of these religions and their replacement of the old belief systems. I'm not sure whether there were any African religions that threatened hellfire if certain deities weren't followed and obeyed. Nobody wants their friends, family and (good) neighbors to go to hell so once one person is a believer of an Abrahamic religion (although I think there is no hell in Judaism, but there is paradise which only the 'righteous' can experience), many others will soon be believers. I don't think people will revert back to the old belief systems - even if they were updated to fit modern times - in significant numbers unless a drastic break with the outside world somehow occurs.

No doubt the intimidation of hell seems to have worked in favour of the Abrahamic faiths population and their unique fashion in proselytizing unlike African religions which do not follow that pattern of preaching (even the orthodox Christians in the North/Eastern tip of the continent). It’s actually interesting that it’s usually in these proselytizing faiths that these fearful conditions are attached.

However my OP is not so much a call to revert more so a reflection. If African beliefs were disqualified because they were found to be apparently false (mainly by exaggerated claims so I suspect it was more based on appearances)...could they have been made “right” instead of discarding them completely...

However I do believe we should debunk the presumption of Africa’s so called spiritual inferiority and the idea that Africa was in dire need of a foreign saviour (similar to USAID). Africa was not spiritually deficient so it’s ironic that Africa was urgently prescribed some spiritual medicine or was it drugs.

Martian: In an ironic way, these religions are what salves the people whose societies have been damaged by the imperialism and colonialism that introduced the religions in the first place. Gift and a curse.

Hmmm....I'm sure you may have noticed the existence of independent African churches or "black churches" even...It’s rather interesting because it highlights a sort of seeming liberation or self-rule...

emöfine2:

Hmmm....I'm sure you may have you noticed the existence of independent African churches or "black churches" even...It’s rather interesting because it highlights a sort of seeming liberation or self-rule...

The most ironic thing ever- black churches.

My people perish for lack of knowledge.........

shymmex: just as atheism (which I find very redundant)

The rise of atheism among people of African descent is something that will be as problematic in future

Your opposition to atheism makes me wonder...do you couple culture with religion?

Heck, many foreigners are now converting to traditional African belief system

Yes this is another phenomenon I noticed and actually intended to create a thread about it quite a while ago..but since were on the topic...
What do you think about this phenomenon?
Is culture and spirituality a free-for-all?

Hola Ptolomeus

Ptolomeus: Very dear friend.
I will try to answer.
First, I understand that both Africa and America, religions have been imposed by the conquerors. They have not chosen the Americans or the Africans have been imposed.

With respect to traditional religions.
It plays an important role, discredit yourself mentioned: the conqueror, discredited cults, associating with black magic and the Jewish-Christian devil. The traditional African rites have nothing demonic or witchcraft.
But (and this is my answer) I do not think there are many things that change liturgically African cults, I understand that it would need to be aware of what they mean, remove them from the figure of the devil and witchcraft, and explain to people what they mean.

Yes I think there is a need to re-establish the traditional religions and their dignities to be restored but for some religions were particular practices may be considered by today’s standards as obscene or even impractical if that assessment is fair then perhaps there could be a reformation depending of course on how adaptable the religion(s) is...perhaps...

Following traditional religious systems, there is a rich tradition and philosophy ... that should be transmitted. But that could only be done if there were religious formed, if you abandon the "practice of ritual in repetitive and non-rational ', if there were priests with a degree of intellectual training to enable them to discuss on equal terms with their detractors.
I think it would be the ultimate solution, but at least we would be taking a big step.
Hope this helps.
Please accept my deep affection.

Hmm interesting...have you ever taught or corrected others who may have been misinformed about African traditional religion?

But yes Africa as well as so many other places has some rich philosophies and beleifs that there are some things that can never be replaced .

emöfine2: Hola Ptolomeus





1. Hmm interesting...have you ever taught or corrected others who may have been misinformed about African traditional religion?

2. But yes Africa as well as so many other places has some rich philosophies and beleifs that there are some things that can never be replaced .

1. Yes. Being thousands of miles of nigeria, based on the study I have corrected many practices that were done wrong. Also (very respsetuosamente) I think in Africa are doing a few things extra-religious reasons that threaten the essence of worship. I do not want to say Nephew and specific issues, I have no authority to judge, but some lined after the Nigerian culture abroad, have changed ancestral grounds for political gain, and that's not right.

2. Everything evolves. If we see evolution as a process and each process tends to better ... then welcome!
Now ... be careful when we propose changes that we seek a "rapprochement" with Western religions. I do not think that's a solution. Within the grounds, there are many things that could change for the better, but not to do something more "social" or "Western".
Would need to know exactly what changes we are talking.

I send warm greetings!

emöfine2:
Your opposition to atheism makes me wonder...do you couple culture with religion?

I invited Prof. PhysicsQED to this thread to give his opinion, you need to thank me for that lol...

To be honest, I don't really have a problem with atheism, but their argument that they don't believe in anything is illogical to me.. Probably, it's because I'm not the smartest kid on the block - but I still need them to give a well researched scholarship based on FACTS about creation, not theories and hypothesis for me to take atheism seriously..

Culture and religion (spiritual system) has to be intertwined to serve the purpose it was created for..Consciousness is being informed and instructed through your groups' peculiar culture on the effects of the varied ecologies on your immediate and distant ancestors, and to be aware of their interpretation of that experience.

Every other race of people built their spiritual system based on their culture, and it seems we're the only race of people - with a spiritual system that's foreign to our culture... Arabs have Islam, Europeans have Christianity, Indians have Hinduism, Eastern Asians have Buddhism, Jews have Judaism etc..

My theory is that Africans are disenfranchised because we don't know who we are, and the spiritual systems we all follow are counterproductive to our consciousness...

Yes this is another phenomenon I noticed and actually intended to create a thread about it quite a while ago..but since were on the topic...
What do you think about this phenomenon?

I think most people are tired of doing the same thing repeatedly with no end result - and it's in human nature to always try something new.. African belief system is also like the new kid on the block, and I believe the mode of worship is fascinating to most foreigners...

Is culture and spirituality a free-for-all?

I don't think it's free-for-all, I think people should seek any form of spirituality that's synonymous to their culture - to be able to extract its full potentials, and attain the level of consciousness they want from it... I believe culture and spirituality (I may be wrong) are inborn - and it's better to seek what's inside you, than to embrace something that's foreign to you IMO.

@shymmex
Africa is not the only place in the world where this occurs. Most of South America lacks own cults. As cultures were wiped out, prohibited, and taxes gods and foreign customs. For this reason I speak of a methodology, by the invaders, which is not casual. At least we are aware of that.

Your exposure is excellent, and I totally agree with you.

Ptolomeus: @shymmex
Africa is not the only place in the world where this occurs. Most of South America lacks own cults. As cultures were wiped out, prohibited, and taxes gods and foreign customs. For this reason I speak of a methodology, by the invaders, which is not casual. At least we are aware of that.

Your exposure is excellent, and I totally agree with you.

But South Americans are now creating their own unique spiritual system which is synonymous to their culture e.g the mixture of Catholicism with Santeria..Bear in mind that most South Americans are mixed - and they also have a mixed culture...

Another thing I noticed is that the level of consciousness in South America has been on the rise since the creation of this new spiritual system (but I may be wrong).

shymmex: I invited Prof. PhysicsQED to this thread to give his opinion, you need to thank me for that lol...

Actually I feel less elated after hearing that he was summoned here lol...but thanks for inviting QED I suppose...

To be honest, I don't really have a problem with atheism, but their argument that they don't believe in anything is illogical to me.. Probably, it's because I'm not the smartest kid on the block - but I still need them to give a well researched scholarship based on FACTS about creation, not theories and hypothesis for me to take atheism seriously..

Culture and religion (spiritual system) has to be intertwined to serve the purpose it was created for..Consciousness is being informed and instructed through your groups' peculiar culture on the effects of the varied ecologies on your immediate and distant ancestors, and to be aware of their interpretation of that experience.

Every other race of people built their spiritual system based on their culture, and it seems we're the only race of people - with a spiritual system that's foreign to our culture... Arabs have Islam, Europeans have Christianity, Indians have Hinduism, Eastern Asians have Buddhism, Jews have Judaism etc..

My theory is that Africans are disenfranchised because we don't know who we are, and the spiritual systems we all follow are counterproductive to our consciousness...

I asked that question because you find it hard to reconcile Africans with atheism in fact you see it as a contradiction...
Certainly the traditional African is belief-centred so I guess you deem atheist Africans to be nontraditional or an antithesis. African culture encourages the conception of a belief orientated society so I suppose African atheists would have to be slightly detached from their culture so perhaps maybe you see the unbelieving African as an uncultured African...maybe

I would have really wanted to discuss your idea on consciousness...but maybe another time...

I think most people are tired of doing the same thing repeatedly with no end result - and it's in human nature to always try something new.. African belief system is also like the new kid on the block, and I believe the mode of worship is fascinating to most foreigners...

I agree humans often like to try something new however I think on the part of the non-Africans adopting African religions is perhaps less to do with achieving results – although they may have been disappointed or even bored of the mainstream faiths.

African religion is not really new but may be met with renewed opinions plus it appears mystic to others so that may be an allure for some.

I believe some people find it exotic and are curious about it (like trying a foreign dish) and it’s not only with African religions but with other world traditional beliefs. Some people are looking for adventure, something spicy or some sort of meaning for their mundane lives, trying to backslide against the superficiality of the mainstream but I do wonder if some people ever consider potential consequences.
Thus for some I view it as a refuge from their mundane existence because I don’t believe all are in it for its efficacy. It’s an alternative for those who want to be unconventional...although to be fair to the sincere populace...I believe some think they have found truths in them and thus feel attuned to it.

But what I meant to say...do you find it flattering or disrespectful of an outsider to adopt these traditional beliefs?
Do you think it’s okay that these systems are being assumed by some of those who once upon a time demonized them?

I don't think it's free-for-all, I think people should seek any form of spirituality that's synonymous to their culture - to be able to extract its full potentials, and attain the level of consciousness they want from it... I believe culture and spirituality (I may be wrong) are inborn

Do you believe spirituality is hereditary?

and it's better to seek what's inside you, than to embrace something that's foreign to you IMO.

Hmmm...what about adopting a foreign philosophy/science/ideology? etc

shymmex: @PhysicsQED

Thanks for your comment.. I agree with everything you posted, but I still think lack of education and knowledge about our traditional African religions are some of the reasons why most people don't want to be associated with them... I think if people are educated about the African religions, it will grow - just as atheism (which I find very redundant) is growing... Heck, many foreigners are now converting to traditional African belief system, yet we Africans are still stuck in the colonial mentality, and enslaving our minds to anything foreign... The rise of atheism among people of African descent is something that will be as problematic in future as what Abrahamic religions are right now... The future looks very bleak!!

I'll also like to know what you think about Ifa... I've been trying to study, and doing some research about it (because that's probably the only African belief system I can relate to, and practice easily by myself IMO).

1. On Ifa, I don't know enough about it to give an endorsement or even a really strong opinion. I think by Ifa maybe you might mean Yoruba traditional religion because my understanding of the word Ifa is that it's one of several forms of a word which refers to a 16 bit divination system in which random values are generated using simple objects and then interpreted (after making spiritual invocations) to predict what will happen next in an individual's life based on beliefs about the mystical/supernatural significance of certain combinations of values. I'm not an expert on the either the divination system Ifa or Yoruba religion so I think maybe you should search for actual practitioners of either and books outlining the basics.

2. I honestly wouldn't know how to go about revitalizing interest in traditional African religions completely among actual Africans, though like you I have heard of some non-Africans in the West embracing traditional religions of various groups including certain African traditional religious beliefs. One positive step would be to try and decolonize the cultures themselves starting with things such as clothing and the use of indigenous languages in writing in schools and government. African music could possibly also be used as a tool to promote indigenous religious beliefs, since music is one area where a distinctly African element has persisted and survived colonialism without being overwhelmed.

The dominant religions on the African continent are Abrahamic religions and Abrahamic religions either threaten hellfire or are basically apocalyptic. As I said earlier, when a person believes his or her relatives and friends are at risk of experiencing hell or not being guaranteed a spot in paradise before the world ends, that's an extremely strong motivation to spread one's religious beliefs.

Now my belief is that one of the consequences of this is that outside of Asia - where Buddhism and Hinduism and a few other religions have been permanently entrenched into the cultures of those nations for ages - the Abrahamic religions have an advantage over other belief systems in spreading or staying in place (rather than gradually going away and ceding ground to the indigenous belief systems once the colonizers and converters leave).

I currently don't see how to give any African belief system - even an updated, polished version with no cruelties or bad practices and with an elaborate temple/religious building, a clearly outlined hierarchy of priests/teachers, and a main set of ideas or scriptures containing the fundamental truths of that belief system - the sort of edge or advantage enjoyed by a religion that threatens hellfire for nonbelievers and/or promises paradise for all who convert before the apocalypse. I know for certain that there are some African groups that believe/believed in a kind of paradise for human souls, but I am not familiar with any group whose traditional beliefs stressed the urgency of trying to secure a spot in paradise before the world ends. I'm not sure that this idea - which is useful for keeping a religion from dying out - is found in African religions.

So I see a problem here of trying to kill an idea - the idea of the Abrahamic religions of an apocalypse that one needs to escape from and of hellfire that one needs to avoid. Once this idea has been implanted in a people's consciousness, I'm not sure how to remove it without cutting off contact with the outside world (the West and the Middle East in particular are what would have to be cut off) or promoting atheism. Suppressing an idea which strikes fear in people's minds without cutting off the source of that idea and the source of all the propaganda supporting that idea will probably be unsuccessful even if one does begin an initiative to try and decolonize one's culture and society (by writing and speaking primarily in one's native language, only wearing native clothes, living in structures based on traditional architecture or inventing new architecture that reflects the indigenous culture and environment, etc.).

On atheism, I've been locked in a struggle with atheism for a while now - since I was a teenager and basically stopped blindly believing in Christianity. I don't want to be atheist, but I also haven't committed to a religious belief system. I had been flirting with the idea of Buddhism because the basic ideas of it were appealing on the surface, but I never took the time to read beyond the basics and really get into it - probably because I was already a really skeptical person at that point and because deep down I knew it was just as rooted in a totally foreign culture as the Abrahamic religions.

As of right now I guess you could say I'm not atheist, but not really religious. I want to believe there's something more to my existence than physical laws and a series of accidents of nature - but I haven't seen what higher cause or idea I should believe in. Unlike some people, you won't see me spouting atheism at every possible chance and going on and on about God not existing because obviously there's no proof that there is no "God" (of course, there's no proof that there is either). There's no definitive proof that there isn't some eternally silent, far away (maybe in another place in the universe) greater being - not necessarily an anthropomorphic being at all, but maybe some different and unique form of life (or maybe just a fundamental spiritual idea) that's currently difficult if not impossible to conceive of with our current scientific understanding - that was more advanced than us and ultimately responsible for setting in motion the series of events that led to our existence.

But every now and again I have little "outbreaks" of atheistic thinking until I remember that I gain absolutely nothing by placing all my certainty and belief merely in the idea of the non-existence of something without even being 100% certain that I - a mere speck in the universe - am really in a position to assess whether that being is really non existent or to be able to prove definitively that it doesn't exist. I feel that atheism either ends up being just a form of mere nihilism or a consequence of jumping the gun and rushing to conclusions without acknowledging the limitations of one's perspective and information.

So although I'm not currently an adherent of African traditional beliefs and not even religious at the moment (but not an atheist), I do want to see a resurgence of traditional African religion as you do because I want to see people reclaim their identity and drop their ideological subservience to cultural centers in Jerusalem, Rome and Mecca.

Martian:

.......Buddhism is just more magical thinking. It would have done as much good as the Abrahamic myths. Instead of following MOGs or Imams, they would probably be chanting in front of some fat bastard preacher/temple priest who would claim he is a descendant of Buddha.

If the foreigners had come with the Avesta instead of the bible and the other crazy book, most of them would be pledging fealty to Zoroaster and there would still be economic disparity because of the imperialism that took place and the refusal to change society to a more progressive one. And they would laugh when the "death and ressurrection" of jesus is taken as the infallible truth by some just like the muslims now laugh at the trinity while the christians are forever condemning the "religion of peace". Hell, they'll probably call Jesus a "false prophet" or a "demon of death" and they wouldn't be running around defending their prophet's "honor" violently.

Well Buddhism is quite different from the Abrahamic religions and it's not nearly as "magical" in my opinion - more mystical and philosophical than magical from my point of view. And the only thing one would need to worry about as far as fake preachers/priests is charlatans claiming to be the "Maitreya". But there's a famous Zen Buddhist koan that goes "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!" which can mean either that anyone claiming to be the Buddha is a charlatan and not really the Buddha or to seek enlightenment through your inner self, not through adulation towards some figurehead (the Buddha). Or it could have some other meaning entirely that's deeper than that although those two interpretations are what I get from it.

Zoroastrianism is similar to the Abrahamic religions in several significant ways and even seems to have influenced some of them so that's a non-starter for me. If Zoroastrianism had been imposed on us somehow I would have the same general complaints/opposition as I do toward the Abrahamic religions except that Persia would take the place of the Middle east/Mesopotamia.

I have no outright desire to see Africans embrace Buddhism, by the way. I would still prefer a resurgence of updated versions of African traditional religion. I just see it as better in some ways than the Abrahamic religions so I think there would have been some societal improvement rather than stagnation or regression in some places in Africa if it had been adopted and I think there is also less cultural subservience in it since the originators (Indians) do not seem to set themselves apart as superiors in the religion over the converts (like Chinese, Tibetans, etc.)

emöfine2: I feel honoured that PhysicsQED graced my thread...I know I’m gonna learn something new by the time I finish reading your post lol.

lol, thanks

I understand and I agree with your suggestions in analyzing the traditional beliefs although perhaps I wanted to address and counter the so called “inferiority” of the continent’s religions.
However I would say the biggest advantage to any religion is if it is indeed adaptable (which fortunately many African religions may qualify as at least to an extent).
I also believe studying African religions in a comparative context may also assist in its understanding.

Benin Republic would be an appropriate nation to review in this regards.

I don't think the continent's religions were inferior - I just think that the religions that came with the colonizers (Christianity) and with trade (Islam) - had a vigorous propaganda machine that we lacked because we were cut off from all writing systems other than those we could create (which we may have only used sparingly or secretly or for specific events), unlike most other peoples of the Middle East and Mediterranean who basically adopted one very popular writing system (even the entire Indian subcontinent adopted this writing system and they used it to write tomes upon tomes of their religious ideas in their version of this script which they called Sanskrit) - the Phoenician alphabet (which actually had an Egyptian origin). When a religion has been around nearly 2000 or 1400 years or more and there are whole libraries full of writing built around it and it's embedded in so many nations' cultures, those nations are not going to admit so easily that ultimately these religions are not really on a higher pedestal than those religions that don't have the centuries of written analysis, glorification, and other forms of direct or indirect promotion to back them up. It's not in their nations' interest to do so.

With different religions there’s different ideologies and it may just be dependent on how beneficial certain ideology is at a particular period but the presence of any religion in a certain region would partly be judged by its trajectory not only its contents (especially if the spread contradicts it) or even the seeming improvements it may have offered.

So you're saying if the way the religion is brought to new converts is in a manner that's inherently not beneficially and even in a manner that's antithetical to the very ideas and nature of the religion itself then it's not necessarily an improvement for the lives the converts even if the contents of the religion are morally or socially enlightening? If that's what you're getting at then I think I can agree with that to some extent. If Buddhism were imposed on a people after violent conquest and indigenous cultural suppression by a group of imperialists it kind of defeats the purpose of the religion itself and also leaves a permanent sour taste attached to that religion among the people being converted.

These religions have posed as divine articles when it’s not so much divorced from the culture it was conceived in...in fact serving to reflect that culture and its people’s human experience so how then should the experience, emotions, philosophy of African people be made redundant through the demotion of their beliefs because it does not on the surface mirror these Abrahamic faiths. I find it highly preposterous and a rip-off that as Africans our value is only attached to our conformity (conversion) unlike a Jew who is automatically relevant if we are to adhere to these imported faiths.

As regards to your final sentence I am of the same opinion. It’s not also about conserving but constructing African identities in a contemporary society. One may notice even that some converted Africans syncretize their traditional beliefs with their adopted imported faith; inviting old elements within the new models. I guess there are elements that some may still find valuable.

No doubt the intimidation of hell seems to have worked in favour of the Abrahamic faiths population and their unique fashion in proselytizing unlike African religions which do not follow that pattern of preaching (even the orthodox Christians in the North/Eastern tip of the continent). It’s actually interesting that it’s usually in these proselytizing faiths that these fearful conditions are attached.

However my OP is not so much a call to revert more so a reflection. If African beliefs were disqualified because they were found to be apparently false (mainly by exaggerated claims so I suspect it was more based on appearances)...could they have been made “right” instead of discarding them completely...


However I do believe we should debunk the presumption of Africa’s so called spiritual inferiority and the idea that Africa was in dire need of a foreign saviour (similar to USAID). Africa was not spiritually deficient so it’s ironic that Africa was urgently prescribed some spiritual medicine or was it drugs.

I definitely think that in the vast majority of cases African religions could have been made "right" by simply eliminating only those practices that involved bloodshed or the social subjugation/degradation of certain classes or groups of people (but this second feature is also present in some other religions outside of Africa, and in some cases was never updated or fixed until modern sensibilities or "political correctness" kicked in in the last several decades). Other than that, there was in my opinion, nothing fundamentally wrong with the social ideas, moral ideas, mystical beliefs, or spirituality in any of the African religious systems I have read about. This idea that Africans needed foreign religions for spiritual "saving" is just due to religious and Western imperialist propaganda if you ask me.

Once again I appreciate your insightful contributions PhysicsQED and I agree with much of what you’ve written. I’m quite fascinated with the suggestion of using music as a tool to re-establish African faiths.

emöfine2:
I asked that question because you find it hard to reconcile Africans with atheism in fact you see it as a contradiction...
Certainly the traditional African is belief-centred so I guess you deem atheist Africans to be nontraditional or an antithesis. African culture encourages the conception of a belief orientated society so I suppose African atheists would have to be slightly detached from their culture so perhaps maybe you see the unbelieving African as an uncultured African...maybe

Absolutely! African culture is based on divinity, belief system, folklores, and gratification - and once an African moves away from the basics of what makes him/her African, he/she becomes 'unAfrican' IMHO.

But what I meant to say...do you find it flattering or disrespectful of an outsider to adopt these traditional beliefs?

I find it flattering because the 'dark continent' is now basically exporting spirituality - which was considered barbaric by the naysayers to the rest of world... If more foreigners can convert to the African belief system, it will subconsciously influence their thought process about 'dark continent' - and this may be end up being the formula for Africa to get it right... We've been subservient to other cultures for too long, thus, losing our identity - and since religion and culture are intertwined; this may be the best way to create a new identity for Africans...

Do you think it’s okay that these systems are being assumed by some of those who once upon a time demonized them?

I personally believe it was a deliberate attempt to colonize the subconscious minds of Africans... None of these belief systems which demonizes the African religions came to us in peace - they were forced on us to keep us subservient... Bear in the mind that most of the early crusaders were psychologists, and they know how the subconscious mind affects an individual's thought process... I also believe that was why they also came with the image of 'new God' which looks like them - and demonized everything black as the devil...

Have you read about how Christian missionaries also claimed that the Panare people killed Jesus, just to get them to convert to Christianity?

This is the link: http://theblacklistpub.ning.com/profiles/blogs/panare-killed-jesus-because-they-were-wicked

Do you believe spirituality is hereditary?

Yes, in Yoruba culture/tradition - but I don't know how true it is in other African cultures... This may because I believe in the concept of an inborn guardian angel and destiny lol.. I probably sound stupid!

Hmmm...what about adopting a foreign philosophy/science/ideology? etc

Science is subjective - but both foreign philosophy and ideology haven't worked out well for Africans... We've been trying both for centuries, yet we're still stuck at the bottom of every social ladder... I think it's high time we dropped theses ideologies and philosophies - and look inwards for things which are more African-centred.... We need to try something new, and find a niche for ourselves in the world...

@Physics

My question is about what you said on music being a tool to 'campaign' for African religions.. Do you think that's why some people are saying that 'Illuminati' is using signs and symbols in music videos to spread their agenda??

PS: I don't really believe in the illuminati thing, but it's always good to ask questions from people who're more knowledgeable.

shymmex: I find it flattering because the 'dark continent' is now basically exporting spirituality - which was considered barbaric by the naysayers to the rest of world... If more foreigners can convert to the African belief system, it will subconsciously influence their thought process about 'dark continent' - and this may be end up being the formula for Africa to get it right... We've been subservient to other cultures for too long, thus, losing our identity - and since religion and culture are intertwined; this may be the best way to create a new identity for Africans...

That’s why I asked if spirituality was a free-for-all...can anyone just adopt any practices they like or sieve through certain parts...
I had pondered on this after watching a mini-documentary about a group of native Americans whose sacred system was being practiced but still misinterpreted by a group of White Americans. I thus wondered how traditionalists may feel about outsiders adopting their sacred system and making it their own. In the documentary I watched the Native Americans weren't so impressed and the White Americans had translated and adapted the native system within a context that was commercial.
It's perhaps different when something is shared than when something is taken.

And yep I heard about the Panare people who were blamed for Christ's death .

Ptolomeus: @shymmex
Africa is not the only place in the world where this occurs. Most of South America lacks own cults. As cultures were wiped out, prohibited, and taxes gods and foreign customs. For this reason I speak of a methodology, by the invaders, which is not casual. At least we are aware of that.

Your exposure is excellent, and I totally agree with you.

I missed the bolded part of your post - I enjoy reading your insightful posts in the culture, and religion sections...

Keep it up, brother..

emöfine2:
That’s why I asked if spirituality was a free-for-all...can anyone just adopt any practices they like or sieve through certain parts...
I had pondered on this after watching a mini-documentary about a group of native Americans whose sacred system was being practiced but still misinterpreted by a group of White Americans. I thus wondered how traditionalists may feel about outsiders adopting their sacred system and making it their own. In the documentary I watched the Native Americans weren't so impressed and the White Americans had translated and adapted the native system within a context that was commercial.
It's perhaps different when something is shared than when something is taken.

And yep I heard about the Panare people who were blamed for Christ's death .

People should be allowed to interpret it anyway they feel like interpreting it, as long as they don't stray away from the foundation... For example: some Churches like Celestial Church of Christ, 'Yorubanized' Christianity but still maintained the foundation in which Christianity was built - which is Jesus Christ...

African belief systems in South America like: Santeria, Condombe, Vodun etc.. are not as pure as what's obtainable on the African continent - but the practitioners still maintained the foundation of those belief systems..

PhysicsQED: Well different areas had different belief systems - some were actually a bit tame as far as sacrifices and other ugly practices.

I think you'd first need to list the different belief systems among different groups, their main components and characteristics, their pros and cons, their adaptability and possible relevance to the modern day, what wisdom there was in them, what very faulty ideas they contained, and what ideas would be hard to accept as even a little plausible in modern times. Since there are a lot of different African religions and many seem quite involved, you might want to focus on a small number (at first anyway).

Also foreign religions are different. If someone had colonized us and spread some form of Buddhism among us instead of the two main religions prevalent in Africa today, it would probably be hard to argue that - for many groups of Africans - some sort of improvement wouldn't have occurred in some way.

As for the Abrahamic religions, apart from some of the decent wisdom and moral advice contained in them, they're basically myth mixed with history and philosophy to me and they impose a distorted worldview on both those who are at the core of those religions and those who are on the periphery (such as converts and descendants of recent converts). Also, why blindly follow Semitic/Middle Eastern philosophy/myth instead of developing one's own or continuing where one's ancestors left off?

But of course if people are told that they're condemned to hell if they don't follow those religions, then there's not much one can do to prevent the spread of these religions and their replacement of the old belief systems. I'm not sure whether there were any African religions that threatened hellfire if certain deities weren't followed and obeyed. Nobody wants their friends, family and (good) neighbors to go to hell so once one person is a believer of an Abrahamic religion (although I think there is no hell in Judaism, but there is paradise which only the 'righteous' can experience), many others will soon be believers. I don't think people will revert back to the old belief systems - even if they were updated to fit modern times - in significant numbers unless a drastic break with the outside world somehow occurs.

The best way to wipe out people's identity is to wipe out their history or at least distort it.
Colonial masters achieved both to some extent. The average educated African today thinks of fetishes, animal (even human) sacrifice and other diabolical stuff when you mention African Religion.
When I was a boy, I used to ask my grandma and other old people about traditional beliefs. The conclusion I came to years later is that their beliefs in the purest form are just as inspired philosophically and mythologically as any others that developed in Asia Minor, Far East or elsewhere.

Is it not surprising that in Christianity, Jesus basically replaces the lesser gods as mediator between humans & Almighty God (Eledumare, Chineke, Osanoghodua/Osanobua etc)?
The wholesale embrace of foreign religions has done a great deal to undermine our history, identity and self-confidence as a people. Arabs today follow a religion developed in their environment. So are the Jews. The Far Easterners do same. The West now live in a post-modern age, they now believe in money/wealth/capitalism. We Africans are caught in the middle. We're unable to look inwards to draw strength and inspiration since everything about us and our history has been made to appear like failure, filth, primitive, even sinister. So a whole lot of self-loathing is subconsciously going on.

Thanks for sharing.

Does that include the Coptic Church of Egypt and the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church? Both of those Christian denominations are as old as Christianity itself. Ethiopians and the Egyptian Copts were Christians even before Europe was converted to Christianity.

It was inevitable. The logic & simplicity of Christianity & Islam was just too much for our African religions to withstand. Same thing happened to British, Irish, Roman, German, Greek, etc traditional religions. They were also swept away, albeit hundreds of years earlier, by the great force of those religions from the Middle East.

Nebeuwa: Does that include the Coptic Church of Egypt and the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church? Both of those Christian denominations are as old as Christianity itself. Ethiopians and the Egyptian Copts were Christians even before Europe was converted to Christianity.

That would qualify as a traditional faith (at least to certain groups in the Northern and Eastern regions of Africa). However the orthodox (Christian) faith in North and East Africa is not of the same manner or version as the encroaching evangelical one in which is foreign to all parts of Africa.
So yes it does include them as well.

A resounding NO! But, one thing is that there is need for adjustment in some of the fetishism in most of the practices.