gbadexy: I'm a regular reasonable and objective guy.
I was born into Islam and I've been indoctrinated into it as most christians too were born into christianity.
Like most people in the world, we just want to worship our creator, simple. Most religions preach dogma where you don't question but just accept on faith so most people remain in the religion they were born into.
Now, I'm just trying to feel around to see if christianity, which is the only other reasonable religion according to me, should be the one to practice in other to fnd God's favour, afterall nobody has come back from heaven to tell us which is acceptable except some questionable and unverified claims.
According to islam, Jesus comes from the spirit of God (Isa Nuhu llah) I hope that's the spelling, but that's the pronunciation. And islam corroborates his immaculate conception.
Now, aren't we all from the spirit of God? And if we assume that Jesus is God's son, would a prince in any kingdom get more praise and recognition than the king? I have heard outright proclamation that Jesus is God and I hear his praise and worship more.
Also, if I agree that God almighty has a son , making them two, what is the holy spirit? Doesn't God's spirit exist in Him and Jesus already? Does both God and jesus spirit have to be lumped together in another entity making them three different entity? I know Jesus is an independent entity with independent thought but with unquestionable devotion to God, so would the same Holy spirit dwell in two different entity? If they are the same, why would the Almighty split Himself in two and have His lesser part act as intercessor.
Finally, Adam was just a vessel that God breathe into to animate him, is God's breath different from His spirit, and if Eve had no mother, whose spirit is in her and what would that make her?
I need intelligent answers and superior argument to enlighten and convince me.
I don't want quotes from the Bible as answers, any verse or quote can be twisted by anybody to give a million different interpretation and meaning. I expect logical answers.
Thank you.

Ok first of all no one is born a christian, we all get converted........ anyway, that's an aside, let me ask why do you want to convert to christianity and yet you don't want quotes from the bible? doesn't that defeat it's purpose? It's a bit like saying "I want to have an education but I don't want anyone to read to me from any book" It doesn't make sense I'm afraid.

^^^
At what point were you converted into christians, at birth when christened?
I gave you the reason why I don't take quotes serious, people would even quote unrelated verse and adamantly insist it answers the questions.
I guess the question cannot be answered except people giving some reverse psychology and answering a question with a question.

^Be grateful, you are born muslim and you have logical answers to life's questions... You will not find it in christianity...

gbadexy: ^^^
At what point were you converted into christians, at birth when christened?
I gave you the reason why I don't take quotes serious, people would even quote unrelated verse and adamantly insist it answers the questions.
I guess the question cannot be answered except people giving some reverse psychology and answering a question with a question.

I became a christian on 24th May 1997 when I asked God to forgive me of my sins and accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour.

Well as for why you don't take quotes serious, the reason you gave still doesn't help you if you really want to know Christ (unless you are being dishonest and don't really want to know Christ and you are only interested in pointless arguing with christians).

It is like saying "I want to learn about Nigerian law but please don't quote the constitution because some lawyers have been known to quote the law out of context." There is no way you can know Nigerian law without referring to the constitution.

If you distrust the people quoting scripture to you, then open it and read for yourself; in fact that is why we quote scripture so that every message can be verified.

^^
@ mr anthony
If you became a christian by 2007, that means we have less than ten millions in nigeria. So all the families born into christian homes and going to church are not christian by default until they chose too?
I'm interested in understanding and learning, if not, I wouldn't have read about gautama Buddha and discarded it or about the brotherhood of the knights of the medieval crusade that is called free masons and discarded it. I'm comfortable with Islam, but I'm still keeping an open mind to see if there is a superior religion that I can practice. Crusade and Jihad is really about convincing people to God's way.
Okay quote from the bible. Although those Holy books are full of parables and ambiguous words that only the person that wrote it can authoritatively know what it really meant.
I bet ten different pastors would see a verse ten different ways, like pastor chris on masturbation and some habits.
Just give me plain comprehensive quotes like the straight forward Ten commandment .

Mr_Anony:

I became a christian on 24th May 1997 when I asked God to forgive me of my sins and accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour.

Well as for why you don't take quotes serious, the reason you gave still doesn't help you if you really want to know Christ (unless you are being dishonest and don't really want to know Christ and you are only interested in pointless arguing with christians).

It is like saying "I want to learn about Nigerian law but please don't quote the constitution because some lawyers have been known to quote the law out of context." There is no way you can know Nigerian law without referring to the constitution.

If you distrust the people quoting scripture to you, then open it and read for yourself; in fact that is why we quote scripture so that every message can be verified.

Good answer.
@gbadexy, If you want a logical argument, then you have to be willing to subject yourself to that system of logic you want to learn from, which for christianity this system is based on the bible. Nobody will force you to agree with whatever does not make sense to you but you have to be willing to listen first, ask questions and make a decision on how convinced you are. True, everybody has his version of christianity, but that is not a sound reason to disregard bible references, rather the responsibility to find answers lies on you to continue the search. Learning is a never-ending process. At this stage, I think you should just ask your questions/concerns, listen to an answer(of course they are gonna come with bible references) & decide if it makes sense to you. We are not all destined to be christians. christianity may not be for you, and if it's not, it's up to you to find your calling. simples!

Mr_Anony:

and yet you don't want quotes from the bible? doesn't that defeat it's purpose? It's a bit like saying "I want to have an education but I don't want anyone to read to me from any book" It doesn't make sense I'm afraid.

this is a very weak way to prove an idea to ones mind.........

first, the authority of such book has to be verified.....u must prove to us the credibility of the statements of that book.....

if i want an education, i go to a book. true

but not just any book.... u agree .......(what are human beings made of...cells...this is true not because the science books tell us this but because this is truly what we are composed of.......go to the lab and see for urself.)

so we dont av to accept quotes because they come from the main book of the knowledge(Christianity) being sought after but because it is the statement of truth from the main book of that knowledge
read the example below and notice how foolish it sounds

"the Quran is the truth"
why is it the truth
"because it says so"

OR

Jesus is the son of God.......why?
because the bible say so.......

it has to be proven from an external source...

the OP obviously doesnt want to become a xtian to believe the bible, he wants to believe the bible to become a xtian........

gbadexy: ^^
@ mr anthony
If you became a christian by 2007, that means we have less than ten millions in nigeria. So all the families born into christian homes and going to church are not christian by default until they chose too?

First, it is Anony not anthony (lol I can't believe I'm defending a username) Second, the year is 1997 not 2007. And yes all people born into christian homes and going to church are not christians as long as they don't have a personal relationship with God.

I'm interested in understanding and learning, if not, I wouldn't have read about gautama Buddha and discarded it or about the brotherhood of the knights of the medieval crusade that is called free masons and discarded it. I'm comfortable with Islam, but I'm still keeping an open mind to see if there is a superior religion that I can practice. Crusade and Jihad is really about convincing people to God's way.

A true search for truth is different from merely seeking another religion to practice. it is a relationship with god that you should be after and not shopping for what to believe in.

Okay quote from the bible. Although those Holy books are full of parables and ambiguous words that only the person that wrote it can authoritatively know what it really meant.
I bet ten different pastors would see a verse ten different ways, like pastor chris on masturbation and some habits.
Just give me plain comprehensive quotes like the straight forward Ten commandment .

I can understand your concern, but then God is the true authority and not any pastor, pastors can be wrong but that's by the way. Let us view it like this:

Can I assume that you believe in God, heaven and hell and the ten commandments at least? if you do, would you consider yourself a good person going to heaven if judged by the ten commandments?

I think olasesi has eloquently put into writing some of my apprehension.
Comparing nigeria's constitution and religion are different things together, the human law is a joke, I don't have faith in nigeria's constitution and legal system. God's system shouldn't even be logically compared with a countries system especially like nigeria. If you say do I believe in america's law and constitution, I would say yes to an extent, not like nigeria where a man was sentenced to death for robbing N2000 without harming anyone and those that steal billions are given six months bed rest in a posh private hospital room.

@gbadexy

Are you just comfortable with Islam or convinced of Islam?

gbadexy: I think olasesi has eloquently put into writing some of my apprehension.
Comparing nigeria's constitution and religion are different things together, the human law is a joke, I don't have faith in nigeria's constitution and legal system. God's system shouldn't even be logically compared with a countries system especially like nigeria. If you say do I believe in america's law and constitution, I would say yes to an extent, not like nigeria where a man was sentenced to death for robbing N2000 without harming anyone and those that steal billions are given six months bed rest in a posh private hospital room.

I thought we were past this point. If I said to you, I want to learn about Islam but don't refer to the quran or the hadith, will you take me seriously?

My friend, it is either you are honestly seeking an answer or you are simply seeking a dispute. If it is an answer you seek, then perhaps I can help you but if it is merely disputes you are seeking so that you can amuse yourself, then I am sorry I can't be of much use to you.

@ toba, the explanations about islam and the Quran satisfy most of what I crave to know.
@ mr Anony, I must admit you have a point, my relating to Islam is based on what I read in the Quran, not some other book. I don't take what some cleric or most of them say seriously if it is not the direct statement read verbatim and emphasize. You would be surprised what some of those illiterate clerics spew out. I just bring out the english version of the Quran and read it to understand and try to let it reasonably convince me.
You are welcome to quote from the Bible. But not ambiguous quotes please.

gbadexy: @ toba, the explanations about islam and the Quran satisfy most of what I crave to know.
@ mr Anony, I must admit you have a point, my relating to Islam is based on what I read in the Quran, not some other book. I don't take what some cleric or most of them say seriously if it is not the direct statement read verbatim and emphasize. You would be surprised what some of those illiterate clerics spew out. I just bring out the english version of the Quran and read it to understand and try to let it reasonably convince me.
You are welcome to quote from the Bible. But not ambiguous quotes please.

Ok so moving on now, let us start from where you are: Can I assume that you believe in God, heaven and hell and the ten commandments at least? if you do, would you consider yourself a good person going to heaven if judged by the ten commandments?

@gbadexy
my name is not toba

Check out this thread:

https://www.nairaland.com/972776/amazing-quran-pre-ramadan-study-interactive

Mr_Anony:
I thought we were past this point. If I said to you, I want to learn about Islam but don't refer to the quran or the hadith, will you take me seriously?

My friend, it is either you are honestly seeking an answer or you are simply seeking a dispute. If it is an answer you seek, then perhaps I can help you but if it is merely disputes you are seeking so that you can amuse yourself, then I am sorry I can't be of much use to you.

You are falling into a trap, this guy has no desire for the truth, they are trying to take you into a circular argument that will end nowhere.

We all know the Quran is a book of plagiarised fables and the bible is prophetic truth, but you cannot convince them without God opening their spiritual eyes.

Blessings,

@frosbel

lol, Provide evidence of your truth, that is all that was asked..

God gave us brains;

tbaba1234: @frosbel

lol, Provide evidence of your truth, that is all that was asked..

God gave us brains;

..

As usual, lost in your delusion; symbolism and metaphors are lost on you. And ants do use sounds to communicate: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/sitesearch.do?querystring=Hills+are+alive+with+the+sound+of+ants+%E2%80%94+talking+to+each+other&p=tto&pf=all&bl=on

Give us the logical reasons why christianity makes sense... that is all that was asked ... face the topic

frosbel:

You are falling into a trap, this guy has no desire for the truth, they are trying to take you into a circular argument that will end nowhere.

We all know the Quran is a book of plagiarised fables and the bible is prophetic truth, but you cannot convince them without God opening their spiritual eyes.

Blessings,

My brother, I can only try to show him Christ. That is all I intend to do and not much more. I have no intention arguing over religions. Thanks man

God bless

..

...

..

..

Mr_Anony:
My brother, I can only try to show him Christ. That is all I intend to do and not much more. I have no intention arguing over religions. Thanks man

God bless

Sure, I respect that - thanks

Now mr frosbel bring your rational proofs for christianity and stop diverting from the intended purpose of the thread

@frosbel
You are part of the problems we have in this world.
So I seek lie not truth? What has condemning the Quran has to do with my questions,is it because I said I read it?
You foolishly condemned the Quran and the religion without a coherent reason and in the same breath proclaim your own religion the truth without a reasonable proof or explanation? Are you that thick? We all know; how did you know? Was that how the missionaries converted people? Just accept it! Or are you so lazy that you don't understand your religion to fully appreciate it on merit.
Mr Anony, I believe in God, the ten commandment makes sense even from secular perspective and yes I only truthfully started to believe in heaven and hell last year fasting when I read the english version of the Quran and a chapter where the angel was nearly pleading, reasoning and appealing to people, infact almost expaserated that people can't see that the reward for good can only be good and the reward for bad is bad.
It dawned on me that the Quran is mostly about doing good and worshipping our creator and the serious consequence, then I thought the way the angels were going on repeatedly about reward and punishment that they really take it serious.
This is based on my belief that the angels revealed the Quran to Muhammad. Then, I reasoned that truely some people have deliberately been doing wickedness and it doesn't make sense that such people just slip to oblivion eternally.
God Almighty knows that my main purpose of reading the Quran is to know things that I can relate with to strengthen my fait. I have some unexplained parts though and when I pray, I just say it in my mind that the Allah I'm saying refers to my creator. If God wants me to worship Jesus, then what's my business, so far it pleases Him.
Sure I'm interested in the truth and I don't know where I will end up when dead,as a human I sin too but I try to follow the universal and basic rule (Ten commandment).

tbaba1234: How do muslim scholars interprete the hadith?

Muslim scholars explain that the nose is one of the ways to one’s mind and thoughts. Satan tries to put his ideas and suggestions into the mind of a person during his sleep as well. The best cure is that after waking up one should clean one’s nose, make ablution for Prayers and seek God’s protection. Some other scholars say that Satan is a symbol of everything bad and evil. Through this symbolism the Prophet was warning the people to be conscious about the cleanliness of their bodies. In the hot and dry climate, the nose does become stuffy during the night. One feels like the devil was in the nose. This was the Prophetic way to tell the people to keep themselves clean and make ablution as soon as they get up.

All Semitic languages, and especially Arabic, are full of metaphors and hyperboles. Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) used to speak in parables; similarly, Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) used to instruct his people sometimes in a metaphorical and symbolic language. It is reported that Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you.” (Matthew 7:6) These words fit very well on those who do not try to understand the Prophetic pearls and holy language. The author of this flyer should pay attention to these words of Jesus."

Symbolism & metaphor are lost on you!!

Now you are ashamed of your sources and trying to explain them away with human logic.

These are pure fables my brother.


Now regarding the remarks of Christ quoted below :

Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you.” (Matthew 7:6)

This is the main reason I stopped debating with Muslims, they need their eyes opened from their current blindness to the truth otherwise they will never truly understand and appreciate the worth of the gems of scripture , instead they will trample the precious words of GOD under foot and turn to attack us which is happening all over the world as we speak.

As Apostle Peter said and unlike ISLAM :

"We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty." - 2 Peter 1:16

^smh... face the thread; I have given you the interpretation and how muslims understand it... You are now trying to teach us our religion.

Give us the the argument for christianity that makes sense, simple

gbadexy: @frosbel
You are part of the problems we have in this world.
So I seek lie not truth? What has condemning the Quran has to do with my questions,is it because I said I read it?
You foolishly condemned the Quran and the religion with a coherent reason and in the same breath proclaim your own religion the truth without a reasonable proof or explanation? Are you that thick? We all know; how did you know? Was that how the missionaries converted people? Just accept it! Or are you so lazy that you don't understand your religion to fully appreciate it on merit.

Ignore me and tbaba1234 , we have been debating for a long time, before you were born unto Nairaland

But , and maybe I am wrong because of bad experiences, I somehow sensed you are a MUSLIM, having had debates with countless numbers, I know their deception, fake topics in an attempt to pretend to want the truth while having ulterior intentions.

Mr Anony, I believe in God, the ten commandment makes sense even from secular perspective and yes I only truthfully started to believe in heaven and hell last year fasting when I read the english version of the Quran and a chapter where the angel was nearly pleading, reasoning and appealing to people, infact almost expaserated that people can't see that the reward for good can only be good and the reward for bad is bad.

But the ten commandments is not in ISLAM and is not a condition for salvation by any means.

It dawned on me that the Quran is mostly about doing good and worshipping our creator and the serious consequence, then I thought the way the angels were going on repeatedly about reward and punishment that they really take it serious.
This is based on my belief that the angels revealed the Quran to Muhammad. Then, I reasoned that truely some people have deliberately been doing wickedness and it doesn't make sense that such people just slip to oblivion eternally.
God Almighty knows that my main purpose of reading the Quran is to know things that I can relate with to strengthen my fait. I have some unexplained parts though and when I pray, I just say it in my mind that the Allah I'm saying refers to my creator. If God wants me to worship Jesus, then what's my business, so far it pleases Him.
Sure I'm interested in the truth and I don't know where I will end up when dead,as a human I sin too but I try to follow the universal and basic rule (Ten commandment).

If you do not know where you will end up when you die, which is also true of Muhammad, then you are truly on dangerous ground :

1. It means you are not assured of salvation
2. You do not believe in God's ability to totally forgive your sins
3. You are taking a gamble with your soul, something you can never truly recover from


My advice, is continue fasting and praying, God will reveal the truth to you.

As for me ISLAM was out decades ago, the fruits I SEE are bad, murder, intolerance, constant agitation etc. Mind you this is my own experience.

We have truth and we have logical reasons and proof to back it up.

God gave us brains for a reason...

@gbadexy did you check out my thread

https://www.nairaland.com/972776/amazing-quran-pre-ramadan-study-interactive

Read it, you'd have your conclusive proof, Insha Allah.

that fool gbadexy dont need a superior argument. what he needs is an exorcism

tbaba1234: We have truth and we have logical reasons and proof to back it up.

God gave us brains for a reason...

@gbadexy did you check out my thread

https://www.nairaland.com/972776/amazing-quran-pre-ramadan-study-interactive

Read it, you'd have your conclusive proof, Insha Allah.

If a man does not know if his sins are totally forgiven or his final destination after death, I am not sure what value your 'TRUTH' is to his soul.

In Christianity , you are either in or out of Christ , there is no middle ground, you are forgiven or you are not.

Indeed, the Holy Sprit also bears witness that we are the chilren of GOD and we are sealed for salvation that is to be revelaed in the last day.

"For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." (Romans 8:14,16).

'One thing we need as disciples is the assurance that we are right with God. We need to know that we are on the right course. We need to have the confidence such assurance brings especially during difficult times. The Lord does offer such assurance, and does so through the Holy Spirit.'

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." - Ephesians 4:30

The Truth brings assurance and salvation with full confidence, any other 'Truth' that fails this test is no TRUTH at all.