@ frosbel
The Ten commandment is the summary of all the laws in the world. I believe in the laws secularly, Islam also said muslims must believe in the gospel and torah (I believe the jewish or moses book) and the ten commandment is there.
You know the popular saying that there is bliss in ignorance? All various adherent of different religion are assured of salvation according to their religion, they are relaxed and are happy to be told what they want to hear, including reincarnation.
I don't want to live in denial or to conveniently convince myself and believe I have automatic pass to heaven.
To be candid, I don't care for argument about religion, atleast not now. I'm still interested in the concept of Trinity. Believe me, that seem to be the ONLY problem Quran had with christianity. The only area of disagreement with the bible, aside from that, trust me they are the same.

gbadexy: @ frosbel
The Ten commandment is the summary of all the laws in the world. I believe in the laws secularly, Islam also said muslims must believe in the gospel and torah (I believe the jewish or moses book) and the ten commandment is there.
You know the popular saying that there is bliss in ignorance? All various adherent of different religion are assured of salvation according to their religion, they are relaxed and are happy to be told what they want to hear, including reincarnation.
I don't want to live in denial or to conveniently convince myself and believe I have automatic pass to heaven.
To be candid, I don't care for argument about religion, atleast not now. I'm still interested in the concept of christianity. Believe me, that seem to be the ONLY problem Quran had with christianity. The only area of disagreement with the bible, aside from that, trust me they are the same.

Sorry my brother , if I was quick to jump to conclusions.

I will now stay out of this article except invited.

All comments about ants deleted

But please read the important statement below.

If a man does not know if his sins are totally forgiven or his final destination after death, I am not sure what value your 'TRUTH' is to his soul.

In Christianity , you are either in or out of Christ , there is no middle ground, you are forgiven or you are not.

Indeed, the Holy Sprit also bears witness that we are the chilren of GOD and we are sealed for salvation that is to be revelaed in the last day.

"For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." (Romans 8:14,16).

'One thing we need as disciples is the assurance that we are right with God. We need to know that we are on the right course. We need to have the confidence such assurance brings especially during difficult times. The Lord does offer such assurance, and does so through the Holy Spirit.'

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." - Ephesians 4:30

The Truth brings assurance and salvation with full confidence, any other 'Truth' that fails this test is no TRUTH at all.

gbadexy: @frosbel
Mr Anony, I believe in God, the ten commandment makes sense even from secular perspective and yes I only truthfully started to believe in heaven and hell last year fasting when I read the english version of the Quran and a chapter where the angel was nearly pleading, reasoning and appealing to people, infact almost expaserated that people can't see that the reward for good can only be good and the reward for bad is bad.
It dawned on me that the Quran is mostly about doing good and worshipping our creator and the serious consequence, then I thought the way the angels were going on repeatedly about reward and punishment that they really take it serious.
This is based on my belief that the angels revealed the Quran to Muhammad. Then, I reasoned that truely some people have deliberately been doing wickedness and it doesn't make sense that such people just slip to oblivion eternally.
God Almighty knows that my main purpose of reading the Quran is to know things that I can relate with to strengthen my fait. I have some unexplained parts though and when I pray, I just say it in my mind that the Allah I'm saying refers to my creator. If God wants me to worship Jesus, then what's my business, so far it pleases Him.
Sure I'm interested in the truth and I don't know where I will end up when dead,as a human I sin too but I try to follow the universal and basic rule (Ten commandment).

Ok then, I take it that you believe that God is just and He will punish sin and reward righteousness. Let us do a quick test so that you can be sure on which side you will end up whether heaven or hell. It is not to judge you but to give you an honest perspective if you are a good person or not. Please answer sincerely we are getting somewhere with this.

1. How many lies have you told in your life?
2. Have you ever stolen anything no matter how small?
3. Have you ever used God's name in vain (it is called blasphemy)?
4. Have you ever had sex outside of marriage? (thou shall not commit adultery)
5. Have you ever looked at another man's wife lustfully? (thou shall not covet your neighbour's wife)

frosbel:
If a man does not know if his sins are totally forgiven or his final destination after death, I am not sure what value your 'TRUTH' is to his soul.

In Christianity , you are either in or out of Christ , there is no middle ground, you are forgiven or you are not.

Indeed, the Holy Sprit also bears witness that we are the chilren of GOD and we are sealed for salvation that is to be revelaed in the last day.

"For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." (Romans 8:14,16).

'One thing we need as disciples is the assurance that we are right with God. We need to know that we are on the right course. We need to have the confidence such assurance brings especially during difficult times. The Lord does offer such assurance, and does so through the Holy Spirit.'

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." - Ephesians 4:30

The Truth brings assurance and salvation with full confidence, any other 'Truth' that fails this test is no TRUTH at all.

I asked for simple logical reasons... you are giving me paul quotes.... like seriously...

tbaba1234:

I asked for simple logical reasons... you are giving me paul quotes.... like seriously...

"All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right." - 2 Timothy 3:16

How can you hold the Truth, when there is no certainty in salvation, when it is based on the weighing of good and bad deeds , when there is a fast track to paradise through Jihad aka killing the infidels, what kind of malformed truth is this.

Again I say , if one dies and is not sure where he is going , he is of most men the most miserable !!

^Another paul book

Like i said truth has proof, I can prove that Islam is logical, truthful and back it up with proof...

If i do everything the way i should, i would make paradise by the mercy of Allah; Same with every muslim

frosbel:

"All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right." - 2 Timothy 3:16

How can you hold the Truth, when there is no certainty in salvation, when it is based on the weighing of good and bad deeds , when there is a fast track to paradise through Jihad aka killing the infidels, what kind of malformed truth is this.

Again I say , if one dies and is not sure where he is going , he is of most men the most miserable !!

All Scripture? So why the usual distinction between the OT and NT?
In my opinion, both Abrahamic religions (Christianity and Islam) are as good and evil as the other.

Only adherents of either faith would choose to remain blind to this fact...

@muskeeto

what are your beliefs?

Mr_Anony:
Ok then, I take it that you believe that God is just and He will punish sin and reward righteousness. Let us do a quick test so that you can be sure on which side you will end up whether heaven or hell. It is not to judge you but to give you an honest perspective if you are a good person or not. Please answer sincerely we are getting somewhere with this.

1. How many lies have you told in your life?
2. Have you ever stolen anything no matter how small?
3. Have you ever used God's name in vain (it is called blasphemy)?
4. Have you ever had sex outside of marriage? (thou shall not commit adultery)
5. Have you ever looked at another man's wife lustfully? (thou shall not covet your neighbour's wife)

Yes, but only few people wouldn't have done all the things you listed above.

tbaba1234: ^Another paul book

Like i said truth has proof, I can prove that Islam is logical, truthful and back it up with proof...

What is the truth ?

Define Truth ?

What is the purpose of Truth ?


If Truth cannot meet the main objective which is defeating SIN and DEATH , it is no TRUTH at all.

Truth is not performing rituals or adhering to ancient tradition , real TRUTH is liberating , freedom from the power of SIN and DEATH over one's life.

I can write volumes and volumes of books and call it truth , but if the truth does not accomplish the purpose for which it was set-up, it is mere talk and no action.

tbaba1234: @muskeeto

what are your beliefs?

I'm irreligious. I believe 'GOD' if he exits, lives within. I believe in LOVE. I love the examples set by Jesus.

NB: By the way, I'd like to thank you for helping me get a better understanding of Islam through most of your threads. Of course, a guy like you would also make a good Christian, or Hindu.. Love/God (if he exists) transcends religions and Holy/immoral books...

musKeeto:
I'm irreligious. I believe 'GOD' if he exits, lives within. I believe in LOVE. I love the examples set by Jesus.

NB: By the way, I'd like to thank you for helping me get a better understanding of Islam through most of your threads. Of course, a guy like you would also make a good Christian, or Hindu.. Love/God (if he exists) transcends religions and Holy/immoral books...

Do not be deceived

From all of human experience, what we define as truth is something we have evidence for, something in accordance with reality.

frosbel:

What is the truth ?

Define Truth ?

What is the purpose of Truth ?


If Truth cannot meet the main objective which is defeating SIN and DEATH , it is no TRUTH at all.

Truth is not performing rituals or adhering to ancient tradition , real TRUTH is liberating , freedom from the power of SIN and DEATH over one's life.

I can write volumes and volume of books and call it truth , but if the truth does not accomplish the purpose for which it was set-up, it is mere talk and no action.

From the Bible

12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. 13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break.

If the 'CHRISTIAN TRUTH' is liberating, why then do most keep sinning? asking for forgiveness? Basically living like every other human on earth...

I believe there's a stronger force than religion or belief in deities. I believe all Holy Scriptures are just a part of the Truth (google the blind men and the elephant).

gbadexy:
Yes, but only few people wouldn't have done all the things you listed above.

So by your own admission, you are a lying, thieving, adulterous, blasphemer. In other words a sinner who does not deserve heaven but deserves to be punished in hell.

I will make bold to say that nobody is good except God not even a single person and since God is just we all deserve hell unless God chooses to be merciful to us. Do you agree?

musKeeto:
I'm irreligious. I believe 'GOD' if he exits, lives within. I believe in LOVE. I love the examples set by Jesus.

NB: By the way, I'd like to thank you for helping me get a better understanding of Islam through most of your threads. Of course, a guy like you would also make a good Christian, or Hindu.. Love/God (if he exists) transcends religions and Holy/immoral books...

That is very subjective, different people interpret love differently; Let me present Islam, you tell me if it makes sense..

This is what Islam says: God is one, unique and independent of all creation, Throughout human civilisation, messengers and prophets have been sent to different people to call them to the creator, these prophets came with clear miracles and signs that could only come from the transcendent . For instance Moses split the sea by the will of God, If you were there, you will have no doubt about Moses.. As generations pass, these stories become mere stories, Jewish myths to some people. Before we continue...

Do you agree with this definition?

A clear sign/miracle is something that is beyond the human mind, Something that is beyond what humans can achieve...

@ mr Anony
Sure

By the way muskeeto ( mosquito?) Any thing with brain knows we didn't appear from thin air, even according to the ridiculous big bang, something would have catalysed or started the process. There is a creator and everything with thinking capacity knows deep down.

I'm strictly interested in trinity and the status of adam and eve. Everybody know right from wrong, I will only strive to do good and let it outweigh my bad.

tbaba1234:

That is very subjective, different people interpret love differently; Let me present Islam, you tell me if it makes sense..

This is what Islam says: God is one, unique and independent of all creation, Throughout human civilisation, messengers and prophets have been sent to different people to call them to the creator, these prophets came with clear miracles and signs that could only come from the transcendent . For instance Moses split the sea by the will of God, If you were there, you will have no doubt about Moses.. As generations pass, these stories become mere stories, Jewish myths to some people. Before we continue...

Do you agree with this definition?

A clear sign/miracle is something that is beyond the human mind, Something that is beyond what humans can achieve...

I want to hear about Salvation, not stories and prophets.

What is SALVATION in ISLAM ? There is none , period !

tbaba1234:
[b]That is very subjective, different people interpret love differently; [/b]Let me present Islam, you tell me if it makes sense..

Yes, just like God, just like all Holy Books...

tbaba1234:
This is what Islam says: God is one, unique and independent of all creation, Throughout human civilisation, messengers and prophets have been sent to different people to call them to the creator, these prophets came with clear miracles and signs that could only come from the transcendent

Do these messengers and prophets include Buddha? Oduduwa? Amadioha? Other millions of local deities?

tbaba1234:
For instance Moses split the sea by the will of God, If you were there, you will have no doubt about Moses..

I wasn't there, so I have doubts. If I tell you one of my grandfathers could converse with all animals, would you believe simply because you weren't there?

tbaba1234:
As generations pass, these stories become mere stories, Jewish myths to some people. Before we continue...

Very true.. and the ones who were lucky to be documented live on..whether false or not...

tbaba1234:
Do you agree with this definition?

A clear sign/miracle is something that is beyond the human mind, Something that is beyond what humans can achieve...

.... and can be experienced by a plausible number of humans... then I agree..

gbadexy: @ mr Anony
Sure

By the way muskeeto ( mosquito?) Any thing with brain knows we didn't appear from thin air, even according to the ridiculous big bang, something would have catalysed or started the process. There is a creator and everything with thinking capacity knows deep down.

I'm strictly interested in trinity and the status of adam and eve. Everybody know right from wrong, I will only strive to do good and let it outweigh my bad.

And in which of my posts did I deny a creator?

NB: I never wrestle with a pig - we'll both get dirty, and the pig will love it

within. I believe in LOVE. I love the examples
set by Jesus.[/b]I'm irreligious. I believe 'GOD' if he exits, lives
within. I believe in LOVE. I love the examples
set by Jesus.

@ muskeeto, you didn't deny the existence of God, but the if in your statement above is suggestive. Anyways each to his own.

@muskeeto

Great, it looks like we are on the same page...

So why do prophets need miracles? Imagine your neighbour comes to your door and says he is a prophet from God, receiving messages from angels; and he says you should follow him otherwise you will be doomed in the afterlife. What will you say? You will say, this dude is crazy or drunk or both...

You see, this is what messengers faced and hence the need for miracles. Because if you see a clear proof, the only reason left for disbelief is arrogance. This is because there will be no more intellectual reason to reject it.

Now, all previous signs/miracles were for the eyes, and if you weren't there.. you can not validate them.

The final miracle/sign is the Quran, It will be a witness for all of eternity...

Now, the only thing left for me to prove is that this Quran is beyond anything that can be produced by the human mind and beyond anything humans can achieve... I have started a thread that proves all that and more...

https://www.nairaland.com/972776/amazing-quran-pre-ramadan-study-interactive

Have a look and give me your feedback..

....

tbaba1234: @muskeeto


Now, the only thing left for me to prove is that this Quran is beyond anything that can be produced by the human mind and beyond anything humans can achieve... I have started a thread that proves all that and more...

https://www.nairaland.com/972776/amazing-quran-pre-ramadan-study-interactive

Have a look and give me your feedback..

Don't be silly

gbadexy: @ mr Anony
Sure

By the way muskeeto ( mosquito?) Any thing with brain knows we didn't appear from thin air, even according to the ridiculous big bang, something would have catalysed or started the process. There is a creator and everything with thinking capacity knows deep down.

I'm strictly interested in trinity and the status of adam and eve. Everybody know right from wrong, I will only strive to do good and let it outweigh my bad.

At least we agree that God must be merciful for us to have any chance at heaven however where we don't agree is that good should outweigh bad this is contrary to scripture because God is way too holy that he cannot tolerate any sin at all. God demands that we must be perfect as He is perfect (Matthew 5:48 ).
There is nothing we can possibly do to deserve heaven. We can only rely on God's mercy. If it was our good works, then Heaven won't be a gift rather it will be a debt that God owes us for what we have done.

Remember God is a just judge and He must punish evil so saying "my good outweighs my bad" is like saying "I have murdered one person and raped another person but I have paid the school fees of fifty people so I don't deserve to go to jail" This defense doesn't work in any court of law.

This is what God did for us. God sent His Son Jesus Christ who is the only man to live without any sin so that He can die for sins He did not commit and by that pay the punishment for our sins. Because Jesus Christ has died and resurrected, we can now claim forgiveness of sin because Jesus Christ has been sacrificed as a lamb of atonement for us.
In other words, when we stand before God's judgment as condemned sinners, we can ask God for mercy and if we accept Jesus Christ's sacrifice for us, then God can legally acquit us but if we reject Jesus Christ's atonement then we are demanding to bear our sins by ourselves hence God has no other choice than to judge us by our works and if any sin is found in us, we will face God's wrath

John 3:16-18: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

Does this make sense to you?

Thanks to lagosshia for making nairaland a terrible place for frosbel. Lol!

@mr Anony
Before agreeing that God's only son came to sacrifice himself for our sin, I would have to believe Jesus is God's son first.
God's breath was in Adam and he became man, was the breath not God's spirit? Eve was made from Adam without mother, wasn't that immaculate conception, aren't we all God's children according to Jesus too, what exactly is the Holy spirit? Could you explain the trio of the trinity separately?
Thanks

gbadexy: @mr Anony
Before agreeing that God's only son came to sacrifice himself for our sin, I would have to believe Jesus is God's son first.
God's breath was in Adam and he became man, was the breath not God's spirit? Eve was made from Adam without mother, wasn't that immaculate conception, aren't we all God's children according to Jesus too, what exactly is the Holy spirit? Could you explain the trio of the trinity separately?
Thanks

Not possible to explain this without using the Bible, you realise?

But I expect some interesting answers, not cliches and ramblings..

[quote author=gbadexy]@mr Anony
Before agreeing that God's only son came to sacrifice himself for our sin, I would have to believe Jesus is God's son first.

Can I ask you a question, what do you think man's worse enemies are, if you respond, I will provide you with a good explanation.

God's breath was in Adam and he became man, was the breath not God's spirit?

God is Spirit, he sustains everything by the word of his Power.

God imparted life to Man, that was his breath , he breathed life into man and man became a living soul, when God takes away this breath we die .

Eve was made from Adam without mother, wasn't that immaculate conception,

No, this was the first woman made, made by God.

Also immaculate conception is a false doctrine perpetuated by the catholic church , which says that Mary was born without SIN , this is false and blasphemy. Only Christ was born without SIN, something which ISLAM also confirms.

aren't we all God's children according to Jesus too, what exactly is the Holy spirit? Could you explain the trio of the trinity separately?
Thanks

We are all God's creation but not all of us are his Sons, to be his SON we have to accept this provision for salvation , repent of our sins and be led by his Spirit.

@ frosbel
I'm sorry you lost me.
Man's worse enemy is man.
You said God sustains all with His word and if the breath leaves, we die? Isn't the same breath that is sustaining all that is that is sustaining Jesus? Didn't Jesus die on the cross when God's spirit left his body?
Also, you said Eve was the first woman made by God, but I thought God made her from Adam's body, so technically she had a human father without human mother.
By your admission, we can all be God's SON if we satisfy the requirements you said right?
QED

With this final submission and based on frosbel's last comment, I can comfortably practice Islam and christianity, I can even go to church with friends on the annual new year eve God willing. All muslims believe in salvation, although the terms may be different, muslims believe only God almighty can save us and if He is displeased with us, nobody can save us from Him.
I won't even mind saying amen to prayers made in Jesus name, no doubt God is fond of him as He is of some very few early people, and if prayers made to the Almighty to please accept because of the fondness He has for Jesus does it, the better.
Muslims too say something similar,(Ni ola anobi Muhammad) I don't know the apt literal translation, but people who know yoruba would understand.