@gbadexy

You can't comfortably practice both.... Christianity(at least a part of it) requires that you believe in a trinity. That is essentially shirk and invalidates the testimony of faith.

Do not mix truth with falsehood, or hide the truth when you know it. (Quran 2:42)

You can not say prayers in anyone's name not even in the name of the prophet..... And the practise of saying 'Ni ola anobi Muhammad' is not accurate...

Do not fall into deception...

tbaba1234: @gbadexy

You can't comfortably practice both.... Christianity(at least a part of it) requires that you believe in a trinity. That is essentially shirk and invalidates the testimony of faith.

Do not mix truth with falsehood, or hide the truth when you know it. (Quran 2:42)

You can not say prayers in anyone's name not even in the name of the prophet..... And the practise of saying 'Ni ola anobi Muhammad' is accurate...

Do not fall into deception...

I wonder. Anyone with a brain knows thats not possible. Like the Christians would say, being in a garage doesnt make you a car..

@tbaba: Will check up your thread after the Ramadan period. If theres any possibilty I'd be converted, I dont want to begin with a month long fast :-)
just kidding..

the practise of saying 'Ni ola anobi Muhammad' is NOT accurate...

musKeeto:
I wonder. Anyone with a brain knows thats not possible. Like the Christians would say, being in a garage doesnt make you a car..

@tbaba: Will check up your thread after the Ramadan period. If theres any possibilty I'd be converted, I dont want to begin with a month long fast :-)
just kidding..

No-one is guaranteed tomorrow... Check it as soon as you can...

Okay, then I'm still waiting to understand about the Trinity comprehensively from a christian perspective.

gbadexy: @ frosbel
I'm sorry you lost me.
Man's worse enemy is man.

This is a misconception friend.

Our worst enemy is not Man but SIN and this leads to death which is precisely the reason why Christ came to destroy the works of the devil.

SIN which encompasses selfishness, greed, sexual immorality, worshipping idols, lying etc is a breach of God's moral LAW which was designed for order in the earth, LOVE between us and GOD ,and LOVE between us and our fellow man , hence the 10 commandments, which includes such injunctions as,you shall not kill, you shall not covet your neighbour's wife or property etc.

SIN breeds death when it becomes mature and it separates us from GOD and our fellow MAN.

Jesus Christ came for 3 reasons :

1. Destroy the power of SIN
2. Conquer death
3. Preach the principles of the Kingdom of GOD.

Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Proverbs 11:19 -" The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death."

Romans 8:13 -"For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live"

You said God sustains all with His word and if the breath leaves, we die? Isn't the same breath that is sustaining all that is that is sustaining Jesus? Didn't Jesus die on the cross when God's spirit left his body?

"the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." - Genesis 2:7

Yes when Jesus died on the cross his spirit left the body , however death could not hold him and he was raised up by the Power of God on the third day, now he is the one that sends the Spirit, the comforter who gives us eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit."

"Also, you said Eve was the first woman made by God, but I thought God made her from Adam's body, so technically she had a human father without human mother.
By your admission, we can all be God's SON if we satisfy the requirements you said right?"

Yes she was made by GOD and GOD is our eternal father, Adam is not her father but her husband.

"So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.” - Genesis 2:21-23


For your second point we are all God's Sons when we believe in Jesus Christ and accept the sacrifice he made for us on the cross for our redemption from SIN and DEATH.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" - John 1:12

gbadexy: Okay, then I'm still waiting to understand about the Trinity comprehensively from a christian perspective.

The early church did not preach trinity , I also struggled with this doctrine for a while, but further research shows us that God is ONE and that while the divinity of Christ is a mystery it is not a myth.

Another area of differentiation between the bible and the Quran is the area of HELL , you may want to consider investigating the difference between the HELL of ISLAM and that of Christianity.

A bit busy now, when I find some time today or tomorrow latest , we will go deep into the Trinity doctrine. For now I will refer you to an article I posted a few months ago on this same subject, any questions you have on this will be appreciated.

https://www.nairaland.com/870257/worship-one-true-god-not

@ frosbel
I really found the link you posted interesting.
I particularly like this post by numo- 86 enlightening.

d apostles warned several times about how
philosophies of men will creep into d church &
turn many away,
Not long after all d apostles died then came
philosophers with there upside down thoughts,
Tertullian in an effort to run away from the
theory of MODALISM,came up with the trinity
concept, and here we are in a world where
almost all professed christians believe in the
trinity, the artesians in collaboration with
philosophers propounded this dogma that has
caused so much confusion, if Jesus never
believed in the trinity & taught it why should
we humans insinuate d doctrine & force it on
Yahweh & Jesus his son
, it was becos of the trinity pagan oriented
dogma that d holy spirit was forced into d
trinity set up,
Have u all not wondered why when ever d
trinity issue comes up much of d argument
95% of it focuses on God & his son,while 5% is
for d holy spirit, d founders of this dogma
thought of how to add a 3rd figure to fit into
the pagan formular(trinity), pagans have long
in advance always worshiped there gods in
triads, in egypt,greece & in babylon triune gods
were d order of d day, and Yahweh always
warned his servants not to even go close to dis
nations because of there worshipin false/triune
gods,
To our greatest surprise here are acclaimed
followers of christ worshipin God in d triad form,
There's somethin that Jesus told the samaritan
woman by d well side that makes me know that
d trinity teachin is so crazy, Jesus even
acknowledged who & only who we shuld
worship & whom he worshiped,
John 4:22,25&26
If any1 would boldly tell us about trinity it
should be nobody else but Jesus, but he didnt,
all Jesus did was tell & remind us of who we
should render exclusive devotion to, infact 1 of
d main reasons Jesus came from heaven was to
explain almighty God to us & explain he did,
Jesus boldly told d samaritan woman that he
knows whom he worships and also boldly told
her that he is the sent messiah(christ) that
they'v all been expecting,
.Jesus, several times emphasized that his
Father is greater than he is,
@ john 17:3 he used his own mouth to
proclaim Yahweh as d only true God,
Only trinitarians/philosophers wuld read d bible

Pastor kun was also in support of this ideology.
One apparent thing though uis that they agree Jesus admitted the Father (God) is bigger than him and he is subjected to His will. According to numo86 post, Jesus even worships God!
I think we all worship the same God, no matter what though, I'm happy I started this thread and I'm learning.

GOd bout life don eat with a sppoon!

I am feeling this numo86. I can relate to his posts, logical with direct verse to back it up in plain language without sentiment.

Yahweh himself once refered to moses as a
God, do u worship moses ?
The bible also refers to satan as a God, do u
worship satan ?
My problem wit y'all is the word elohim or el
can apply to any bein other than Yahweh,
Did d bible ever tell u that Jesus is d God of
isreal,d God of isaac & Jacob or where
did Jesus ever use his own mouth to say he is
the God of isreal & so we all should worship
him??Yahweh always declared who he was &
asked for absolute worship from d
isrealites,infact he commanded them to
worship only him(Yahweh),,
If Jesus is the 1 God then he should hav
declared it with his own mouth when he came
& after his ascension, but how could he when
he worshiped some1 else??
When u mention God be specific which 1 ur
mentioning because u urself can be a God,
These are d reasons why the only true God has
a name, and u guys fail to use that name just
to get away with trinity,
, Jesus worships a supreme being,& that
supreme being is the one Jesus himself
encouraged all of us to worship,
Jesus is a God(elohim) by his high position in
heaven & also d much authority he was given
but he is not the 1 true God he himself spoke
about @ john 17:3, 1corinthians 8:5 & 6 should
help too,
i'l give u an example of title wahala, all the
angels in heaven are called "morning stars" @
job 38:7 & so is Jesus called too @ revelation
2:28,/22:16, But does that make Jesus on the
same level with d other angels or does that
mean they share a morning star head with
Jesus ?
It only just describes Jesus that he shares some
certain things wit d angels & it also describes
his nature too
But 1 thing is established,the 1 true God
cannot be called a morning star because he
isnt never will be, now thats the big difference
between Yahweh & Jesus, them no be mate
the apostles knew what they wrote in those
scriptures, They werent drunks,
No matter how they use vague or some
confusing expressions they always @ d end of it
all clarify issues by pin pointing who alone is
God which is Yahweh, d apostles always
worshiped Yahweh not d messiah, they werent
drunk to have done that,
And mind u please open to other translations
and read that same 1john 5:7 & 8 and tell me if
king james wasnt driven by his trinity mentality
to fix those words into d bible, please do that
(Quote)

gbadexy: @ frosbel
I really found the link you posted interesting.
I particularly like this post by numo- 86 enlightening.

d apostles warned several times about how
philosophies of men will creep into d church &
turn many away,
Not long after all d apostles died then came
philosophers with there upside down thoughts,
Tertullian in an effort to run away from the
theory of MODALISM,came up with the trinity
concept, and here we are in a world where
almost all professed christians believe in the
trinity, the artesians in collaboration with
philosophers propounded this dogma that has
caused so much confusion, if Jesus never
believed in the trinity & taught it why should
we humans insinuate d doctrine & force it on
Yahweh & Jesus his son
, it was becos of the trinity pagan oriented
dogma that d holy spirit was forced into d
trinity set up,
Have u all not wondered why when ever d
trinity issue comes up much of d argument
95% of it focuses on God & his son,while 5% is
for d holy spirit, d founders of this dogma
thought of how to add a 3rd figure to fit into
the pagan formular(trinity), pagans have long
in advance always worshiped there gods in
triads, in egypt,greece & in babylon triune gods
were d order of d day, and Yahweh always
warned his servants not to even go close to dis
nations because of there worshipin false/triune
gods,
To our greatest surprise here are acclaimed
followers of christ worshipin God in d triad form,
There's somethin that Jesus told the samaritan
woman by d well side that makes me know that
d trinity teachin is so crazy, Jesus even
acknowledged who & only who we shuld
worship & whom he worshiped,
John 4:22,25&26
If any1 would boldly tell us about trinity it
should be nobody else but Jesus, but he didnt,
all Jesus did was tell & remind us of who we
should render exclusive devotion to, infact 1 of
d main reasons Jesus came from heaven was to
explain almighty God to us & explain he did,
Jesus boldly told d samaritan woman that he
knows whom he worships and also boldly told
her that he is the sent messiah(christ) that
they'v all been expecting,
.Jesus, several times emphasized that his
Father is greater than he is,
@ john 17:3 he used his own mouth to
proclaim Yahweh as d only true God,
Only trinitarians/philosophers wuld read d bible

Pastor kun was also in support of this ideology.
One apparent thing though uis that they agree Jesus admitted the Father (God) is bigger than him and he is subjected to His will. According to numo86 post, Jesus even worships God!
I think we all worship the same God, no matter what though, I'm happy I started this thread and I'm learning.

Dont get it twisted, the concept trinity is biblical, i'm gonna mention here some biblical reference.

Colossians 2:8-9
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through
hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on
human tradition and the basic principles of this world
rather than on Christ.
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in
bodily form, 10 and you have been given fullness in
Christ, who is the head over every power and authority

Philippians 2:5-8
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ
Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature a God,
did not consider equality with God something to be
grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature b of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

John 14:8-12
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will
be satisfied.”
9 Jesus replied, “Have I been with you all this time,
Philip, and yet you still don’t know who I am? Anyone
who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you
asking me to show him to you? 10 Don’t you believe that
I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I
speak are not my own, but my Father who lives in me
does his work through me. 11 Just believe that I am in
the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe
because of the work you have seen me do.
12 “I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me
will do the same works I have done, and even greater
works, because I am going to be with the Father.


Let me leave it this way for now!

I have never met anyone who can explain God's nature, whether trinitarian or otherwise. We are speaking of the God who dwells in unapproachable light (1 Tim. 6:16), whose ways and thoughts are infinitely higher than ours (Isa. 55:9), whom no ordinary human has ever seen (John 1:18 ). Unlike philosophers both ancient and modern, we need not try to understand God through human observation and logic, for Jesus the only-begotten Son of God has already revealed him (John 1:18 ). Any sincere seeker can find God and call upon him -- not through intellectual prowess but through a lowly and repentant heart (Isa. 55:6-7; 59:1-2).

What is important, it seems to me, is that we readily confess all that Scripture affirms about God and about Jesus of Nazareth, who claimed to be God's unique Son and whom the apostles testified God raised back up from among the dead (Rom. 1:4). That includes the biblical testimony that Jesus was the incarnation of the divine Word (John 1:1-3, 14); that he was active in creation (John 1:3; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2); that God was his Father in a unique sense and that God sent him into the world (John 3:16-17); that Jesus had authority to forgive sins (Mk. 2:5-10); that the fullness of deity inhabited him bodily (Col. 2:9); and that he returned to a heavenly glory which in some sense he shared with the Father before the world began (John 17:5).

To a church that prided itself on knowledge, Paul wrote, "for us there is but one God, the Father . . . and one Lord, Jesus Christ. However, not all men have this knowledge" (1 Cor. 8:6-7). Theology, wrote an ancient church father, is "faith seeking understanding." One need not attain sophisticated theological understanding in order to believe and be saved. The person whom God loves, says the Apostle, is the individual who loves God -- not the one who best analyzes him (1 Cor. 8:1-3).

Even Jesus Christ himself said there is ONE GOD - Edward Fudge

""The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." - Mark 12:29

gbadexy: I am feeling this numo86. I can relate to his posts, logical with direct verse to back it up in plain language without sentiment.

Yahweh himself once refered to moses as a
God, do u worship moses ?
The bible also refers to satan as a God, do u
worship satan ?
My problem wit y'all is the word elohim or el
can apply to any bein other than Yahweh,
Did d bible ever tell u that Jesus is d God of
isreal,d God of isaac & Jacob or where
did Jesus ever use his own mouth to say he is
the God of isreal & so we all should worship
him??Yahweh always declared who he was &
asked for absolute worship from d
isrealites,infact he commanded them to
worship only him(Yahweh),,
If Jesus is the 1 God then he should hav
declared it with his own mouth when he came
& after his ascension, but how could he when
he worshiped some1 else??
When u mention God be specific which 1 ur
mentioning because u urself can be a God,
These are d reasons why the only true God has
a name, and u guys fail to use that name just
to get away with trinity,
, Jesus worships a supreme being,& that
supreme being is the one Jesus himself
encouraged all of us to worship,
Jesus is a God(elohim) by his high position in
heaven & also d much authority he was given
but he is not the 1 true God he himself spoke
about @ john 17:3, 1corinthians 8:5 & 6 should
help too,
i'l give u an example of title wahala, all the
angels in heaven are called "morning stars" @
job 38:7 & so is Jesus called too @ revelation
2:28,/22:16, But does that make Jesus on the
same level with d other angels or does that
mean they share a morning star head with
Jesus ?
It only just describes Jesus that he shares some
certain things wit d angels & it also describes
his nature too
But 1 thing is established,the 1 true God
cannot be called a morning star because he
isnt never will be, now thats the big difference
between Yahweh & Jesus, them no be mate
the apostles knew what they wrote in those
scriptures, They werent drunks,
No matter how they use vague or some
confusing expressions they always @ d end of it
all clarify issues by pin pointing who alone is
God which is Yahweh, d apostles always
worshiped Yahweh not d messiah, they werent
drunk to have done that,
And mind u please open to other translations
and read that same 1john 5:7 & 8 and tell me if
king james wasnt driven by his trinity mentality
to fix those words into d bible, please do that
(Quote)

Have'nt you read John 1:1 to the end? I would recommend you get a bible for yourself and read that John 1:1 to the end.

1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He existed in the beginning with God.
3 God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.
4 The Word gave life to everything that was created, a
and his life brought light to everyone.
5 The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness can never extinguish it.

10 He came into the very world he created, but the
world didn’t recognize him. 11 He came to his own
people, and even they rejected him. 12 But to all who
believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to
become children of God. 13 They are reborn—not with a
physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but
a birth that comes from God.
14 So the Word became human d and made his
home among us. He was full of unfailing love and
faithfulness. e And we have seen his glory, the glory of the
Father’s one and only Son.

joe4christ:

Have'nt you read John 1:1 to the end? I would recommend you get a bible for yourself and read that John 1:1 to the end.

1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He existed in the beginning with God.
3 God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.
4 The Word gave life to everything that was created, a
and his life brought light to everyone.
5 The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness can never extinguish it.

10 He came into the very world he created, but the
world didn’t recognize him. 11 He came to his own
people, and even they rejected him. 12 But to all who
believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to
become children of God. 13 They are reborn—not with a
physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but
a birth that comes from God.
14 So the Word became human d and made his
home among us. He was full of unfailing love and
faithfulness. e And we have seen his glory, the glory of the
Father’s one and only Son.

I have never met anyone who can explain God's nature, whether trinitarian or otherwise. We are speaking of the God who dwells in unapproachable light (1 Tim. 6:16), whose ways and thoughts are infinitely higher than ours (Isa. 55:9), whom no ordinary human has ever seen (John 1:18 ). Unlike philosophers both ancient and modern, we need not try to understand God through human observation and logic, for Jesus the only-begotten Son of God has already revealed him (John 1:18 ). Any sincere seeker can find God and call upon him -- not through intellectual prowess but through a lowly and repentant heart (Isa. 55:6-7; 59:1-2).

What is important, it seems to me, is that we readily confess all that Scripture affirms about God and about Jesus of Nazareth, who claimed to be God's unique Son and whom the apostles testified God raised back up from among the dead (Rom. 1:4). That includes the biblical testimony that Jesus was the incarnation of the divine Word (John 1:1-3, 14); that he was active in creation (John 1:3; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2); that God was his Father in a unique sense and that God sent him into the world (John 3:16-17); that Jesus had authority to forgive sins (Mk. 2:5-10); that the fullness of deity inhabited him bodily (Col. 2:9); and that he returned to a heavenly glory which in some sense he shared with the Father before the world began (John 17:5).

To a church that prided itself on knowledge, Paul wrote, "for us there is but one God, the Father . . . and one Lord, Jesus Christ. However, not all men have this knowledge" (1 Cor. 8:6-7). Theology, wrote an ancient church father, is "faith seeking understanding." One need not attain sophisticated theological understanding in order to believe and be saved. The person whom God loves, says the Apostle, is the individual who loves God -- not the one who best analyzes him (1 Cor. 8:1-3).

Even Jesus Christ himself said there is ONE GOD - Edward Fudge

""The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." - Mark 12:29

Jesus Christ never shared the nature of Angels, as he existed as GOD before manifesting as the Son of Man, he actually shared human nature for the purpose of defeating the dual enmies of man , sin and death.

"You made them a little[a] lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor and put everything under their feet.”In putting everything under them,[d] God left nothing that is not subject to them.[e] Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them. 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone." - Hebrews 2:7-9

I never said God is not one, i was just saying there is truly a Godhead, or how would you explain what God meant when he said ''let us make man in our own image '' who was he refering to?
Do you also remember man was created in God's image? Take a good look at our makeup, we are three patite being, made up of body soul and spirit, all co-existing.
I guess this explains much about the mystery of the Godhead.

joe4christ: I never said God is not one, i was just saying there is truly a Godhead, or how would you explain what God meant when he said ''let us make man in our own image '' who was he refering to?
Do you also remember man was created in God's image? Take a good look at our makeup, we are three patite being, made up of body soul and spirit, all co-existing.
I guess this explains much about the mystery of the Godhead.

Let us leave it as this , it is a mystery, what matters most is that we have faith in GOD and in his SON Christ Jesus and that we obey his will , love him and preach the gospel of good news.

"King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." - 1 Timothy 3:16

gbadexy: @mr Anony
Before agreeing that God's only son came to sacrifice himself for our sin, I would have to believe Jesus is God's son first.
God's breath was in Adam and he became man, was the breath not God's spirit? Eve was made from Adam without mother, wasn't that immaculate conception, aren't we all God's children according to Jesus too, what exactly is the Holy spirit? Could you explain the trio of the trinity separately?
Thanks

I think frosbel and joe4christ may have explained a bit to you so I'll just continue from here. As I said, I don't really want to argue over mysteries, histories and genealogies. What I shared with you earlier is the basic message of salvation. You do not necessarily need to understand the details of the trinity to be saved.

About whether Jesus Christ was God's Son, read in Matthew 3:16-17
When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Who is the Holy Spirit? Simply put, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and He works in us after we have been saved to help us do God's will. Remember I said earlier that it is impossible not to commit sin on your own but to rely on God's mercy which is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Now when we are born again, it is the Holy Spirit that helps us to stay away from sin. Jesus said in John 14:15-17 when he promised us the Holy Spirit

“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

The only way you can truly know the Holy Spirit is to receive Christ. I can only share with you the good news of salvation. My only challenge to you is that you taste it and see for yourself.

Cheers

@ joe4christ
I find this verse difficult to stomach:
10 and you have been given
fullness in
Christ, who is the head over every power and
authority

That would suggest Jesus is the highest authority.
However, when you said Jesus was the word and everything was made through him and remembering another verse you quoted where he told his disciples that God speaks through him and does His work through him, these statements really got me thinking.
Could Jesus be God's most powerful and arch angel even more powerful than the then lucifer angel? Because God does His work through the angels which I presume are all entities that are extension of God.
Even the Quran uses the WE, plural terms, but scholars translate it to mean a form of respect for God so awesome, so it won't contradict the Quran.
I suspect Jesus could either be an un equalled and most powerful angel or a being higher than angels but lower than God, but that is loyal and indispensable to God and would naturally sit besides Gods throne, albeit a lower one like was described in the Bible.
It would forever remain a mystery, but I know jesus is a very special one.
The muno86 gave good argument and quotes and mr Anony and christ4joe equally gave good and convincing response, that was the cause of my earlier reluctance with quotes from any Holy book.
One could even go as far as to suggest that God communicates His wish through Jesus to the angels, a sort of heirachy.
You people have really given me much to ruminate about.
But one thing is clear though, there is one true independent God.
@ mr Anony
Being born again and having the holy spirit like you put it doesn't really guaranty against sinning. Born again are still vulnerable especially given a trying or tempting sacrifice. They just would really think harder and be more conscious of what they are doing just like very devoted muslims, hindu, jews and so would behave to their fellow human.

gbadexy:

@ mr Anony
Being born again and having the holy spirit like you put it doesn't really guaranty against sinning. Born again are still vulnerable especially given a trying or tempting sacrifice. They just would really think harder and be more conscious of what they are doing just like very devoted muslims, hindu, jews and so would behave to their fellow human.

Not so, when you have the Holy spirit in you, He convicts you of sin. You cannot knowingly fall into sin.
The beauty of being born-again isn't about how many sins you commit but about God's saving grace to forgive us of sin. we can now approach God directly as our father.
We do not sin anymore not because we are trying to avoid punishment but because we are in a relationship with a God who loves us so much that it will break our hearts to offend Him.

Christianity is like the relationship between a father and his child. The child knows that the father loves him and will always forgive him but he doesn't purposely offend his father because he also loves his father.

Religion on the other hand is like the relationship between a king and his servants. The servants are not free with the king and have to be careful what they do so that the king does not punish them.

Christianity makes us free from the law of sin, religion binds us to that law.


Romans 8:14-16 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Galatians 4:4-7 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

@gbadexy

Question: you said; You suspect Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) was an angel... It is one or the other... man or angel not both... What would make Jesus an angel and Adam not an angel??

Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) was a mighty prophet; a great man but as muslims we do not go into these extremes ...

Do not go into extremes

God is far above what you attribute to him...

People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a ‘Trinity’– stop [this], that is better for you– God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.
(Surah 4:171)

The disbelievers say, ‘The Lord of Mercy has offspring.’ How terrible is this thing you assert: it almost causes the heavens to be torn apart, the earth to split asunder, the mountains to crumble to pieces, that they attribute offspring to the Lord of Mercy.It does not befit the Lord of Mercy [to have offspring]: there is no one in the heavens or earth who will not come to the Lord of Mercy as a servant– He has counted them all: He has numbered them exactly– and they will each return to Him on the Day of Resurrection all alone. (Surah 19:88-95)

Assalam aleikum

...

@mr Anony
You are making sense.
However, what's the muslims position in your perspective? We believe in one true God, Muhammad told us to pray directly to God and have direct relationship also with Him without third party, Muhammad and the Quran tells us to believe in Jesus as the messenger of God, albeit he is from God's spirit.
Doesn't the messiah mean the messenger bringing God's good news and message to the people in this context?
I'm seeing some similarities though and I feel the early religious scholars may have interpreted some things according to human reasoning or reason best known to them.
I have much rumination to do on what I've read here so far.

gbadexy: @mr Anony
You are making sense.
However, what's the muslims position in your perspective? We believe in one true God, Muhammad told us to pray directly to God and have direct relationship also with Him without third party, Muhammad and the Quran tells us to believe in Jesus as the messenger of God, albeit he is from God's spirit.
Doesn't the messiah mean the messenger bringing God's good news and message to the people in this context?
I'm seeing some similarities though and I feel the early religious scholars may have interpreted some things according to human reasoning or reason best known to them.
I have much rumination to do on what I've read here so far.

You will agree with me that the message is more important than the messenger. The question is not in the messiah as much as it is in the message that Jesus brought. What did Jesus say?
Jesus told us that He is the Son of God and that if we believe in Him we shall have eternal life. He told us that He is the only way to God.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Now I am not so conversant with the teachings of the Koran as much but if I was an objective observer, I will trust the account of Jesus Christ as relayed by His disciples who were with Him, saw Him, touched Him, and ate with Him over the account of Mohammed who came to the scene about 600 years later. Don't you agree?

@anony

you can't make judgement on something you haven't read, Here's a free PDF copy of the Quran, read it at your free time

http://asadullahali.files./2010/09/the_quran.pdf

I am sure, you believe in revelation.. The fact that the prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) came 600 years later does not matter if he actually got revelation.

Muslim also believe that Jesus was the way, the truth and the life to the people he was sent to at the time. Just like every messenger to his people. This is from a paper from Jamal badawi:

Fact:
There is no single scriptural text in which Jesus claimed explicitly to be divine. Nor is there any implicit text, which can be interpreted exclusively to mean a claim of divinity.

On the contrary, there are numerous clear and direct texts in which Jesus denies equality with God or possessing any of God’s divine attributes (see for example John 8: 28-29, 14: 10, 24. 28. 31. Mk. 13: 32, 10: 18). In a serious matter like belief in God, an implicit evidence or an allegorical statement is far from adequate. Nor is it reasonable to claim that Jesus kept that serious matter as a guarded secret and hence caused confusion to multitudes for centuries.


Miracles

No miracle attributed to Jesus signifies that he was God-Incarnate. There is no major miracle attributed to Jesus, which does not have some parallel in the Bible. Including resurrection (see for example Heb, 7: 3, I kings 17: 22, 20: 35-36, II Kings 4: 7, 34, 44, 6: 17, 20, 13: 22, Ezk 37: 1-14). How revealing is Jesus’ statement, “I can do nothing on my own authority” (John 5: 30).

There is no difference between Muslims and Christians on the imperfection of human nature, the necessity for atonement, the pursuit of salvation and the primacy of God’s grace and forgiving qualities. The difference, however, relates to the way of seeking forgiveness and strength to “overcome sin”. The Qur’an teaches that God is both just and Merciful. But since He created humankind and knows its weaknesses, He does not require bloodshed to forgive. One who sincerely repents and inculcated a relationship of love for god, and obedience and submission to Him. Can be assured of God’s loving forgiveness.

To claim that salvation can be secured only through the blood of Jesus, as the “lamb of God and the perfect sacrifice” is untenable on many grounds. Let us examine one issue. Who died on the cross (according to the Biblical story)? If it was Jesus the man, then it is not the perfect sacrifice. No man, however perfect, can atone for the sins of all mankind or meet the requirements of perfect sacrifice. And if the one who died on the cross was God. Then was god dead for “three days”? It is consistent with the Old Testament to utter this? And if the Giver of Life Himself is dead, who else can bring Him back to life? Who looked after the universe before His resurrection? If the All Merciful and Loving God wanted to forgive, what prevents Him from doing so in a direct, simple and straightforward manner? Why must the “requirement of justice” be satisfied by grave injustice, the suffering and agony of the innocent Jesus? Would this gross injustice, if it were true? Be consistent with the quality of divine love? How appropriate is it for a Judge, who instead of sentencing a criminal or forgiving him, which is within his authority, to order the execution of his “only” son so that the criminal will go free and appreciate how much the Judge loves him? Where did the notion of the suffering and dying God come from? How does that related to the almost identical myths preceding the introduction of this doctrine to the simple yet profound absolute monotheistic teachings of Jesus?

Mystery

Reference is frequently made to the witness of the disciples. Paul, the Church or others as an experiential proof of the divinity of Jesus. But isn’t that experience shaped in the first place by the acceptance of the dogma that Jesus is divine? Isn’t that like saying that you have to accept the post-Jesus, man-made dogma that he is divine, so that you can experience this “truth”, which in turn will be your proof that he is divine? I wonder if there is a problem of “circular logic” in this type of “proof”? What can we say to multitudes of humans who report similar experiences while believing in diverse deities? Should they be told that their experiences, sincere as they may be, are not necessarily proofs of ultimate Truth; that they could be misleading experiences determined by presuppositions?

As to the testimony of Paul, we find that the Book of Acts indicates that Paul was accused of not telling the truth about the teachings of Jesus, an accusation which he did not deny but tried to justify (see Romans 3:7-.

The witness of the Church throughout history is not a viable argument either. Squabbles, reversal of decisions claimed to be with the help of the holy spirit, decisions like the Crusades, inquisition or the execution of free thinkers and scientists are by no means an experiential proof of the divinity of Jesus, nor were they testimonies of the forgiving love of God or His dwelling in or through those who claimed to be “Christian” and staunchly believed that Jesus was God-incarnate.

Surely, there are things which our limited minds can’t fully understand or imagine (e.g. that God has no beginning or end).

But this is different from requiring a human, blessed with God-given reason, to accept an obvious contradiction which could not be adequately explained after 2000 years and millions of volumes.

Signing off!!

tbaba1234: @anony

you can't make judgement on something you haven't read, Here's a free PDF copy of the Quran, read it at your free time

http://asadullahali.files./2010/09/the_quran.pdf

I am sure, you believe in revelation.. The fact that the prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) came 600 years later does not matter if he actually got revelation.

Muslim also believe that Jesus was the way, the truth and the life to the people he was sent to at the time. Just like every messenger to his people. This is from a paper from Jamal badawi:

Fact:
There is no single scriptural text in which Jesus claimed explicitly to be divine. Nor is there any implicit text, which can be interpreted exclusively to mean a claim of divinity.

On the contrary, there are numerous clear and direct texts in which Jesus denies equality with God or possessing any of God’s divine attributes (see for example John 8: 28-29, 14: 10, 24. 28. 31. Mk. 13: 32, 10: 18). In a serious matter like belief in God, an implicit evidence or an allegorical statement is far from adequate. Nor is it reasonable to claim that Jesus kept that serious matter as a guarded secret and hence caused confusion to multitudes for centuries.


Miracles

No miracle attributed to Jesus signifies that he was God-Incarnate. There is no major miracle attributed to Jesus, which does not have some parallel in the Bible. Including resurrection (see for example Heb, 7: 3, I kings 17: 22, 20: 35-36, II Kings 4: 7, 34, 44, 6: 17, 20, 13: 22, Ezk 37: 1-14). How revealing is Jesus’ statement, “I can do nothing on my own authority” (John 5: 30).

There is no difference between Muslims and Christians on the imperfection of human nature, the necessity for atonement, the pursuit of salvation and the primacy of God’s grace and forgiving qualities. The difference, however, relates to the way of seeking forgiveness and strength to “overcome sin”. The Qur’an teaches that God is both just and Merciful. But since He created humankind and knows its weaknesses, He does not require bloodshed to forgive. One who sincerely repents and inculcated a relationship of love for god, and obedience and submission to Him. Can be assured of God’s loving forgiveness.

To claim that salvation can be secured only through the blood of Jesus, as the “lamb of God and the perfect sacrifice” is untenable on many grounds. Let us examine one issue. Who died on the cross (according to the Biblical story)? If it was Jesus the man, then it is not the perfect sacrifice. No man, however perfect, can atone for the sins of all mankind or meet the requirements of perfect sacrifice. And if the one who died on the cross was God. Then was god dead for “three days”? It is consistent with the Old Testament to utter this? And if the Giver of Life Himself is dead, who else can bring Him back to life? Who looked after the universe before His resurrection? If the All Merciful and Loving God wanted to forgive, what prevents Him from doing so in a direct, simple and straightforward manner? Why must the “requirement of justice” be satisfied by grave injustice, the suffering and agony of the innocent Jesus? Would this gross injustice, if it were true? Be consistent with the quality of divine love? How appropriate is it for a Judge, who instead of sentencing a criminal or forgiving him, which is within his authority, to order the execution of his “only” son so that the criminal will go free and appreciate how much the Judge loves him? Where did the notion of the suffering and dying God come from? How does that related to the almost identical myths preceding the introduction of this doctrine to the simple yet profound absolute monotheistic teachings of Jesus?

Mystery

Reference is frequently made to the witness of the disciples. Paul, the Church or others as an experiential proof of the divinity of Jesus. But isn’t that experience shaped in the first place by the acceptance of the dogma that Jesus is divine? Isn’t that like saying that you have to accept the post-Jesus, man-made dogma that he is divine, so that you can experience this “truth”, which in turn will be your proof that he is divine? I wonder if there is a problem of “circular logic” in this type of “proof”? What can we say to multitudes of humans who report similar experiences while believing in diverse deities? Should they be told that their experiences, sincere as they may be, are not necessarily proofs of ultimate Truth; that they could be misleading experiences determined by presuppositions?

As to the testimony of Paul, we find that the Book of Acts indicates that Paul was accused of not telling the truth about the teachings of Jesus, an accusation which he did not deny but tried to justify (see Romans 3:7-.

The witness of the Church throughout history is not a viable argument either. Squabbles, reversal of decisions claimed to be with the help of the holy spirit, decisions like the Crusades, inquisition or the execution of free thinkers and scientists are by no means an experiential proof of the divinity of Jesus, nor were they testimonies of the forgiving love of God or His dwelling in or through those who claimed to be “Christian” and staunchly believed that Jesus was God-incarnate.

Surely, there are things which our limited minds can’t fully understand or imagine (e.g. that God has no beginning or end).

But this is different from requiring a human, blessed with God-given reason, to accept an obvious contradiction which could not be adequately explained after 2000 years and millions of volumes.

Signing off!!

@tbaba1234, You are grossly mistaken on many points but I'll make things clear to you at a later time. For now I am having a conversation with gbadexy. If you are willing we will break words on this later.

My aim is not to argue aimlessly but to relay the message of salvation and the grace which I have received to another sinner just like myself. All I want to do for now is show him how I got saved and how he too can receive salvation.

tbaba1234: Muslim also believe that Jesus was the way, the truth and the life to the people he was sent to at the time. Just like every messenger to his people. This is from a paper from Jamal badawi:

Jesus is the WAY , the TRUTH and the LIFE.

Let us hear what Jesus himself had to say on this matter:

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;

Fact:
There is no single scriptural text in which Jesus claimed explicitly to be divine. Nor is there any implicit text, which can be interpreted exclusively to mean a claim of divinity.

"And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God." John 20:28

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58

John 17:5 tells us Jesus said; "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

In the last verse I quoted above, John 17, Jesus Christ pre-existed , he only became a little lower than the angels as a man for our redemption.

"But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone." - Hebrews 2:9

But before he came as a man , he was one with the father, of one substance.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" - John 1:1-3

On the contrary, there are numerous clear and direct texts in which Jesus denies equality with God or possessing any of God’s divine attributes (see for example John 8: 28-29, 14: 10, 24. 28. 31. Mk. 13: 32, 10: 18). In a serious matter like belief in God, an implicit evidence or an allegorical statement is far from adequate. Nor is it reasonable to claim that Jesus kept that serious matter as a guarded secret and hence caused confusion to multitudes for centuries.

Simple, he was made a little lower than the angels as a man to taste death for mankind.


"Who, being in very nature[f] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[g] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!" - Philippians 2:6-8

Miracles

No miracle attributed to Jesus signifies that he was God-Incarnate. There is no major miracle attributed to Jesus, which does not have some parallel in the Bible. Including resurrection (see for example Heb, 7: 3, I kings 17: 22, 20: 35-36, II Kings 4: 7, 34, 44, 6: 17, 20, 13: 22, Ezk 37: 1-14). How revealing is Jesus’ statement, “I can do nothing on my own authority” (John 5: 30).

"They were terrified and asked each other, "Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!" - Mark 4:41

"What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are--the Holy One of God!" - Mark 1:24

"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." - John 14:26

Hmm, so a man can terrify demons, calm waves and winds and also send the Spirit of GOD.

There is no difference between Muslims and Christians on the imperfection of human nature, the necessity for atonement,

There is a big difference :

1. SIN - Muslims do not believe that SIN spread from Adam to the human race

2. There is no atonement in ISLAM only religious rites and duty. In Christianity , Jesus is an atonement for our sins.

the pursuit of salvation

Salvation in ISLAM :

1. Is not assured

2. Is based primarily on 'dead' works.

and the primacy of God’s grace and forgiving qualities.

Grace in ISLAM, never read this in the Quran , please quote a Surah where grace is mentioned, you guys are trying to bring ISLAM closer to the concepts of Christianity, still copying aye

The difference, however, relates to the way of seeking forgiveness and strength to “overcome sin”.

Strength to overcome SIN can only come from GOD.

The Qur’an teaches that God is both just and Merciful. But since He created humankind and knows its weaknesses, He does not require bloodshed to forgive. One who sincerely repents and inculcated a relationship of love for god, and obedience and submission to Him. Can be assured of God’s loving forgiveness.

Okay , for argument sake, how did ALLAH Conquer death , what is the definition and concept of the resurrection in ISLAM and by what method.

To claim that salvation can be secured only through the blood of Jesus, as the “lamb of God and the perfect sacrifice” is untenable on many grounds.

Actually No !

Read the Jewish sources of atonement and you will understand that Christ is the perfect sacrifice.

Man can never atone for his own sins.

Let us examine one issue. Who died on the cross (according to the Biblical story)? If it was Jesus the man, then it is not the perfect sacrifice.

It was Jesus the Son of the living GOD.


The Blood of Christ

"But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[n] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[o] eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[p] so that we may serve the living God!For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant." - Hebrews 9:11-15

No man, however perfect, can atone for the sins of all mankind or meet the requirements of perfect sacrifice. And if the one who died on the cross was God.

Which is why God came among mankind in the form of a servant, Christ Jesus, to offer a perfect sinless atonement for mankind.

"Sacrifice and offering Thou wouldest not, but a body hast Thou prepared me" (Heb. 10:5).

1 Peter 1:18 - 19 - "knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot."

Then was god dead for “three days”?

God died ??


"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” - John 10:18

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. " - Matthew 12:40

It is consistent with the Old Testament to utter this? And if the Giver of Life Himself is dead, who else can bring Him back to life?

God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.

You cannot understand these spiritual deep truths because they are foolishness to your carnal mind.

"God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory." - 1 Timothy 3:16

"This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[g]14[u]The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.[/u]The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgements,for,“Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”[h]But we have the mind of Christ." - 1 Corinthians 2:14

Who looked after the universe before His resurrection?

"At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes." - Matthew 11:25

If the All Merciful and Loving God wanted to forgive, what prevents Him from doing so in a direct, simple and straightforward manner? Why must the “requirement of justice” be satisfied by grave injustice, the suffering and agony of the innocent Jesus?

Oh the arrogance of SATAN, challenging GOD, and asking him why he does things the way he wants and has planned.

"From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, [p]“Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”But He turned and said to Peter, [size=14pt]“Get behind Me, Satan![/size] You are [q]an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” - Matthew 16:21-23

tidytim:

Jesus is the WAY , the TRUTH and the LIFE.

Let us hear what Jesus himself had to say on this matter:

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;




"And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God." John 20:28

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58

John 17:5 tells us Jesus said; "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

In the last verse I quoted above, John 17, Jesus Christ pre-existed , he only became a little lower than the angels as a man for our redemption.

"But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone." - Hebrews 2:9

But before he came as a man , he was one with the father, of one substance.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made" - John 1:1-3





Simple, he was made a little lower than the angels as a man to taste death for mankind.


"Who, being in very nature[f] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[g] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!" - Philippians 2:6-8







"They were terrified and asked each other, "Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!" - Mark 4:41

"What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are--the Holy One of God!" - Mark 1:24

"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." - John 14:26

Hmm, so a man can terrify demons, calm waves and winds and also send the Spirit of GOD.





There is a big difference :

1. SIN - Muslims do not believe that SIN spread from Adam to the human race

2. There is no atonement in ISLAM only religious rites and duty. In Christianity , Jesus is an atonement for our sins.




Salvation in ISLAM :

1. Is not assured

2. Is based primarily on 'dead' works.




Grace in ISLAM, never read this in the Quran , please quote a Surah where grace is mentioned, you guys are trying to bring ISLAM closer to the concepts of Christianity, still copying aye



Strength to overcome SIN can only come from GOD.



Okay , for argument sake, how did ALLAH Conquer death , what is the definition and concept of the resurrection in ISLAM and by what method.



Actually No !

Read the Jewish sources of atonement and you will understand that Christ is the perfect sacrifice.

Man can never atone for his own sins.






It was Jesus the Son of the living GOD.


The Blood of Christ

"But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[n] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[o] eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[p] so that we may serve the living God!For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant." - Hebrews 9:11-15




Which is why God came among mankind in the form of a servant, Christ Jesus, to offer a perfect sinless atonement for mankind.

"Sacrifice and offering Thou wouldest not, but a body hast Thou prepared me" (Heb. 10:5).

1 Peter 1:18 - 19 - "knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot."



God died ??


"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” - John 10:18

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. " - Matthew 12:40





God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.

You cannot understand these spiritual deep truths because they are foolishness to your carnal mind.

"God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory." - 1 Timothy 3:16

"This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[g]14[u]The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.[/u]The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgements,for,“Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”[h]But we have the mind of Christ." - 1 Corinthians 2:14




"At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes." - Matthew 11:25



Oh the arrogance of SATAN, challenging GOD, and asking him why he does things the way he wants and has planned.

"From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, [p]“Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”But He turned and said to Peter, [size=14pt]“Get behind Me, Satan![/size] You are [q]an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” - Matthew 16:21-23

Thanks tidytim (1Peter 3:15)

gbadexy: @mr Anony
You are making sense.
However, what's the muslims position in your perspective? We believe in one true God, Muhammad told us to pray directly to God and have direct relationship also with Him without third party, Muhammad and the Quran tells us to believe in Jesus as the messenger of God, albeit he is from God's spirit.
Doesn't the messiah mean the messenger bringing God's good news and message to the people in this context?
I'm seeing some similarities though and I feel the early religious scholars may have interpreted some things according to human reasoning or reason best known to them.
I have much rumination to do on what I've read here so far.

Sir, kindly read this article https://www.nairaland.com/979437/salvation-islam-christianity

I've been doing some thinking and weighing options. I would keep asking questions till I am satisfied. I will ask about both books.
According to New testament, every God fearing and righteous person is called Son of God; Matthew 5:45 , that ye may be children of your Father in heaven.
Jesus made several reference to God as our Father in heaven
Matthew 5:48 , 6:1 ,7:21
Jesus also prayed, and prayer is from a submitting and dependent one for the Mercy of almighty.
Jesus even went as far as saying ; Not everyone that sayeth unto me Lord shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the WILL of my Father which is in heaven. So it seems to me that Salvation in Biblical terms depends on pleasing God compared to automatic passage into the Kingdom by simply accepting Jesus.
Muslims strive to please God always and believe Jesus is God's messenger of good news to his people. And here is a confirmation.
Matthew 15:22-28
And behold, a woman of Cannan came out of the same coasts and cried unto him saying 'Have mercy on me O Lord, thou son of David: my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a wrd. And his disciples came and besought him saying 'Send her away! For she crieth after us'. But he answered and said, ' I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house. Of Isreal'!
Then came she and worshiped him,saying 'Lord help me' But he ansswered and said ' It is not meet to take the children's bread and cast it to dogs'! And she said ' Truth Lord : Yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters table'
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, 'O woman, great is thy faith;be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that hour.
If the incident was reported correctly, It shows Jesus lacked love and mercy, degraded discrimination in regard to the uplifting of his tribe and not for the others, tribal pride of descendance and prejudice against others and calling them dogs, engaging in a debate with an ignorant polytheist woman and she won him over.
Even the Prophet Isa (Jesus) in the Quran is far above this traits.
These claims above shows a human being, although powerful with God's spirit, sent as a messenger to his people just as other prophets have been sent to their people.
Mr tidytim, please help me post your Quran description of Heaven here, it makes sense, let my muslim brothers explain and enlighten us more.
I have always had concern about the correct interpretation and compilation of the holy books in general, since I want a superior conviction from the enlightened christians, I will limit the questions to the Bible, I will open another thread for my Quranic questions.

@gbadexy

This thread could be useful for you .. https://www.nairaland.com/802617/questions-muslims-those-want-know

The Almighty Says (what means): {And whoever does righteous deeds, whether male or female, while being a believer -- those will enter Paradise and will not be wronged}[Quran 4:124]

O people! We have created you from a man and a woman and made you into peoples and tribes so that you may know each other, verily the most honorable among you in the sight of Allah are the most pious.' [Noble Quran 49:13]

Everything including the description of paradise is on that thread... I hope you find it enlightening...

Mr tidytim,
I read the link you posted and sent a response, please respond to it if you view this post.

tbaba1234: @gbadexy

Question: you said; You suspect Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) was an angel... It is one or the other... man or angel not both... What would make Jesus an angel and Adam not an angel??

Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) was a mighty prophet; a great man but as muslims we do not go into these extremes ...

Do not go into extremes

God is far above what you attribute to him...

People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a ‘Trinity’– stop [this], that is better for you– [size=15pt] God is only one God [/size] , He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.
(Surah 4:171)

The disbelievers say, ‘The Lord of Mercy has offspring.’ How terrible is this thing you assert: it almost causes the heavens to be torn apart, the earth to split asunder, the mountains to crumble to pieces, that they attribute offspring to the Lord of Mercy.It does not befit the Lord of Mercy [to have offspring]: there is no one in the heavens or earth who will not come to the Lord of Mercy as a servant– He has counted them all: He has numbered them exactly– and they will each return to Him on the Day of Resurrection all alone. (Surah 19:88-95)

Assalam aleikum

James 2:19
You say you have faith, for you believe that
there is one God. Good for you! Even the
demons believe this, and they tremble in
terror.