Kay 17:

Usefulness, benefit are radically different from happiness. That's obvious.

Apparently it wasn't obvious to me and that is why I am asking you to be specific with what you mean so that I can answer appropriately. I don't want to guess

Mr_Anony:

We are dancing around in circles. You see, I don't recognize allah, he doesn't exist in my reality. In my reality, there is only one supreme creator and law giver Jehovah, and there can only be one God hence a a universal right and wrong exists.
In your reality on the other hand, there are multiple law givers and none is supreme, how then can you know for sure that anything is truly right or wrong?

In reality nothing is truly right or truly wrong. . .Everything is determined by the society you find your self living in, after all when slavery was acceptable at a point in time your god was telling people how to sell their daughters into slavery. . .That is why you can not go to Qatar and be drinking in public but you can do that in Denmark. Yahweh is NOT the only god that exist in reality, vishnu and allah also exist and you must deal with them in the reality we live in. . .Your failure to recognize allah does not mean that billions do not recognize him, to over 1.5 billion people he is their reality. . .So the true reality am talking about is very different from your own subjective reality. . .In the real world we live in, morality varies from place to places and is constantly evolving. . .In the real world morals are developed culturally be it religious, political or socially, morality has nothing to do with any god. . . .Morality must be learnt and all moral values came about through experimentation. . .Humans had to teach themselves that slavery is wrong, muder is wrong and pillage is wrong. . .A simple reading of your bible will show you the evolution of morality. . .Incest was acceptable to your god(Abraham married his sister) at a time before it became unacceptable, slavery was acceptable, genocide etc. . .

mazaje:

In reality nothing is truly right or truly wrong. . .Everything is determined by the society you find your self living in, after all when slavery was acceptable at a point in time your god was telling people how to sell their daughters into slavery. . .That is why you can not go to Qatar and be drinking in public but you can do that in Denmark. Yahweh is NOT the only god that exist in reality, vishnu and allah also exist and you must deal with them in the reality we live in. . .Your failure to recognize allah does not mean that billions do not recognize him, to over 1.5 billion people he is their reality. . .So the true reality am talking about is very different from your own subjective reality. . .In the real world we live in, morality varies from place to places and is constantly evolving. . .In the real world morals are developed culturally be it religious, political or socially, morality has nothing to do with any god. . . .Morality must be learnt and all moral values came about through experimentation. . .Humans had to teach themselves that slavery is wrong, muder is wrong and pillage is wrong. . .A simple reading of your bible will show you the evolution of morality. . .Incest was acceptable to your god(Abraham married his sister) at a time before it became unacceptable, slavery was acceptable, genocide etc. . .

You are trying to force your "reality" on me. This is not acceptable. You are claiming that what you think is real for you must be real for me, sorry it doesn't work that way.
The point is that in your reality, you will always be a hypocrite because anytime you judge something as morally right or wrong and expect another person to agree with you, you will immediately be acting from my worldview where morals are objective.
Anytime you condemn any society as evil either past or present, you will also be making a meaningless statement because there is no true good and evil therefore you cannot rightfully condemn anything.
Even when you try to condemn the actions of my God, you will be saying nonsense because there is no standard from which you judge morality so you cannot rightfully judge God.
In the same way it also implies that no matter what you do, you can never be rightfully judged in your reality. You can decide to ra[i]p[/i]e plunder villages and murder people as long as you can evade punishment, you would be justified.
In your world, morality is meaningless and does not exist.

In my worldview, morality is subject to God and objective to me therefore I must live my life in a certain way irrespective of which society I live in, I live by a higher law (God's nature) and that is the law I must abide by.

Mr Anony

The Ten Commandments are not a moral framework but a legal system.

So a legal system can be breached in order to excerise morality (aka loyalty to god).

***

Hmmm as you have said earlier we are “going around in circles”. You've read my views and I've read yours. However I will admit that I did garner something from our dialogue and I somehwat have a handle on your narrow viewpoint. However I doubt you understood mine.

Mr_Anony:
You are trying to force your "reality" on me. This is not acceptable. You are claiming that what you think is real for you must be real for me, sorry it doesn't work that way.

The reality of the world we live in, not my reality as a person. . .

The point is that in your reality, you will always be a hypocrite because anytime you judge something as morally right or wrong and expect another person to agree with you, you will immediately be acting from my worldview where morals are objective.

In the real world where we live, morality varies from place to place and is dependent on period in time. . .In the real world morality is not objective that is why polygamy is acceptable to in some societies and is not acceptable in others, female circumcision is acceptable in some societies and seen as a crime by others, killing people or punishing them for unbelief is accpetable in some societies and not in others, g[i]a[/i]y marriage is acceptable in some society as a good thing and in some it is an evil act, copral punishment for kids is acceptable in some societies as a good thing and seen as an evil act in others. . .Doctor assisted suicide for people with terminal sickness is accountable and seen as a good thing in some societies but wrong in others. . .That is the REALITY of the world we live in. . .All moral codes are man made. . .In the real world morals are developed culturally be it religious, political or socially, morality has nothing to do with any god. . . .You keep talking about objective morality but you have FAILED to show how it works in the real world we are living in. . .I on the other hand have shown you that in the real world we live in morality is subjective. . .

Anytime you condemn any society as evil either past or present, you will also be making a meaningless statement because there is no true good and evil therefore you cannot rightfully condemn anything.

Once there is a consensus I can condemn any society, after all even under you objective morality infanticide, looting and ra[i]p[/i]e are all justifiable as punishment for some elusive sin that makes sense to you alone. . .

Even when you try to condemn the actions of my God, you will be saying nonsense because there is no standard from which you judge morality so you cannot rightfully judge God.

There is a standard and that standard is set by humans based on their environment and point in history, I am judging your god and his actions based on the morality of my time and the society i live in, since i have stated that my morality is based on the laws written and accepted by the society i live in. . .

In the same way it also implies that no matter what you do, you can never be rightfully judged in your reality. You can decide to ra[i]p[/i]e plunder villages and murder people as long as you can evade punishment, you would be justified.
In your world, morality is meaningless and does not exist.

In the reality of the world we live in laws are set by humans and I have to abide by the laws that have been set, what ever the law of the land says is right or wrong I must abide by it. If i live in a society that says eating pork is evil for example, i must abide by it because the society says it is. . .My morality is based on what ever the society defines as right or as wrong and that is the reality of the world we live in. . .I keep saying when slavery was right your god was its champion. . .

In my worldview, morality is subject to God and objective to me therefore I must live my life in a certain way irrespective of which society I live in, I live by a higher law (God's nature) and that is the law I must abide by.

In the world we live in, morality is not subject to any single god because there are many different gods with many different followers. . .Morality is set through consensus by the society mostly through law makers, religious leaders etc. . .The world we live in agrees more with me than you. . .

emöfine2: Mr Anony

So a legal system can be breached in order to excerise morality (aka loyalty to god).

***

Yes, a legal system must be breached if it means disloyalty to God

emöfine2: Hmmm as you have said earlier we are “going around in circles”. You've read my views and I've read yours. However I will admit that I did garner something from our dialogue and I somehwat have a handle on your narrow viewpoint. However I doubt you understood mine.

I got your point clear enough my friend, you were trying to divorce God from His nature and this is simply unreasonable. The nature of God is good irrespective of individual opinion and to make God evil means that you will be separating Him from His "Godness"

It is like this; Fire is hot irrespective of how different materials respond to it, to say that fire is cold means that you are separating it from it's "fireness" you will be destroying the meaning of fire