Mr_Anony:

The thing is that your question already assumes morality as separate from any authority. This I don't agree with.
Our morality comes from obedience to God's law (our conscience). Our morality simply has no meaning if it is not defined by any laws.

But is it useful, does it have any value to humans?

Mr_Anony:
Please which of God's laws inspires our "repulsion" as you put it?
Mind you I am not asking which of the consequences of breaking God's law you are repulsed by.

Here is one law for example that inspires every body's repulsion. . .there are so many but will drop just one. . .

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man is caught in the act of rap[i]i[/i]ng a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Mr_Anony:
Your argument is like saying that a legal system employs evil for the sake of doing good everytime it punishes lawbreakers. If this is the case, then no law can possibly be good.

There is a part of our moral psyche that believes good should be rewarded and evil punished. Without any consequences, good and evil will become meaningless.

About acts of "genocide", by what standards do you judge it to be genocide? If a million people commit a crime should they not all be punished? Is it justice to overlook their crimes simply because of their large number?

Killing in itself is not morally evil, murder on the other hand is morally evil. The difference between judicial killing and murder is the authority/license to kill, This is why an executioner is not judged a murderer neither is a soldier judged a murderer by law no matter how many people they kill.

If God is ultimate judge, creator and moral giver who in His judgment, commands the death of criminals (a.k.a. sinners) You legally cannot dictate to Him what the extent of His judgment should be however you may question His fairness; if He is being partial and if His moral laws are contradictory.

DANGEROUS!!

mazaje:

By whose standard do you judge the Jihadist? After all they are carrying out allah's command to slay the unbelievers, because allah surely dislike the unbelievers, they must die for their sins. . .

If you have been following my argument from the beginning you would have noticed that I am arguing from a christian viewpoint so in my worldview only Jehovah exists as God and the law has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ so now the we live in a dispensation of grace therefore in this dispensation, God does not give us the right to kill anyone.

Mr_Anony:

If you have been following my argument from the beginning you would have noticed that I am arguing from a christian viewpoint so in my worldview only Jehovah exists as God and the law has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ so now the we live in a dispensation of grace therefore in this dispensation, God does not give us the right to kill anyone.

In reality Jehovah is NOT the only god that exist, allah and many other gods exist so how do you deal with them and their followers?. . .If killing of millions by the chosen men of yahweh is justice then why is the killing of infidels by the jihadist not justice, after all allah the creator of the universe and mankind says in his book the holy koran that he dislikes the infidels. . .

mazaje:

Here is one law for example that inspires every body's repulsion. . .there are so many but will drop just one. . .

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man is caught in the act of rap[i]i[/i]ng a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

What you have just described is a consequence and not a moral law. You are repulsed at the punishment for rape and not that rape itself breaks God's law.
I'll show you what I mean:
If Nigerian law says stealing is wrong and the punishment for stealing 5 naira is 40 years in prison, I am not repulsed by the law against theft, however I may be repulsed that the punishment is 40yrs in prison
If on the other hand, Nigerian law says stealing is right and if you steal 5 naira you get 40 years in paradise, then I am repulsed at such a law for condoning stealing. the consequence in itself is not repulsive in this case

mazaje: In reality Jehovah is NOT the only god that exist, allah and many other gods exist so how do you deal with them and their followers?. . .If killing of millions by the chosen men of yahweh is justice then why is the killing of infidels by the jihadist not justice, after all allah the creator of the universeand mankind says in his book the holy koran that he dislikes the infidels. . .

Correction:

i. The killing of innocent people by anyone is strictly prohibited... The Quran only talks about fighting in the context of combat/war.

ii. There is no such thing as infidels in Islam... Infidel was a term used by the crusaders against the muslims.... The word used in the Quran is Kafir which mean.. to hide or to reject truth...

So basically; The Quran talks about the one who rejects the truth when it has been presented to him clearly... That is the kafir.

Not all non-muslims are kafirs, a kafir is one who rejects and hides the truth after it has been presented to him

A Kafir is one that doesn't agree with Islam, not the truth

mazaje:

In reality Jehovah is NOT the only god that exist, allah and many other gods exist so how do you deal with them and their followers?. . .If killing of millions by the chosen men of yahweh is justice then why is the killing of infidels by the jihadist not justice, after all allah the creator of the universe and mankind says in his book the holy koran that he dislikes the infidels. . .

The question now arises, in whose reality? and how do you know for sure that Jehovah is not the only God that exists? There may be many different perceptions of God but there can only be one true God for God to be moral giver

Kay 17:

But is it useful, does it have any value to humans?

Of course it is useful and has value to humans. It is because of our morality that we can have any kind of behavioral order in society.

Mr_Anony:
What you have just described is a consequence and not a moral law. You are repulsed at the punishment for rape and not that rape itself breaks God's law.
I'll show you what I mean:
If Nigerian law says stealing is wrong and the punishment for stealing 5 naira is 40 years in prison, I am not repulsed by the law against theft, however I may be repulsed that the punishment is 40yrs in prison
If on the other hand, Nigerian law says stealing is right and if you steal 5 naira you get 40 years in paradise, then I am repulsed at such a law for condoning stealing. the consequence in itself is not repulsive in this case

In your worldview, what's the difference btw God's Law and Morality.

Most morals do come with the idea of a commensurate penalty.

tbaba1234:

Correction:

i. The killing of innocent people by anyone is strictly prohibited... The Quran only talks about fighting in the context of combat/war.

ii. There is no such thing as infidels in Islam... Infidel was a term used by the crusaders against the muslims.... The word used in the Quran is Kafir which mean.. to hide or to reject truth...

So basically; The Quran talks about the one who rejects the truth when it has been presented to him clearly... That is the kafir.

Not all non-muslims are kafirs, a kafir is one who rejects and hides the truth after it has been presented to him

Kafir is the same word as an infidel which means an unbeliever. . .I really don't know what you are on about here. . .Infidel means and unbeliever, so there is such a thing as infidel in the islam because unbelievers are talked about a lot in the koran. . .

Kay 17: DANGEROUS!!

How so?

Mr_Anony:

The question now arises, in whose reality? and how do you know for sure that Jehovah is not the only God that exists? There may be many different perceptions of God but there can only be one true God for God to be moral giver

In the reality we see around us. . .Because allah exist as well, tbaba123 is also on this thread, he has every reason and evidence to show you that allah exist. Allah exist and is also the moral giver, go ask the muslims. . .

Kay 17: A Kafir is one that doesn't agree with Islam, not the truth

i. A non-muslim who has never heard much about Islam in a clear fashion might not agree with with what he has heard.

This person is not a kafir in the literal sense.

ii. A person who has never heard of the message of Islam is not a kafir.

Allah does not punish anyone until He has first sent a warning to them and unless there is evidence against them. Allaah does not treat anybody unfairly. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).” [al-Israa’ 17:15].

iii. The one who has been presented with Islam in the clearest fashion; with the evidence and proof and still rejects it is a kafir

mazaje:

Kafir is the same word as an infidel which means an unbeliever. . .I really don't know what you are on about here. . .Infidel means and unbeliever, so there is such a thing as infidel in the islam because unbelievers are talked about a lot in the koran. . .

Wrong, a kafir is not an unbeliever....

A better term is a disbeliever....

The meaning of the word kafir is 'to hide' or 'to reject' truth... like a farmer who buries seeds...

tbaba1234:

i. A non-muslim who has never heard much about Islam in a clear fashion might not agree with with what he has heard.

This person is not a kafir in the literal sense.

ii. A person who has never heard of the message of Islam is not a kafir.

Allah does not punish anyone until He has first sent a warning to them and unless there is evidence against them. Allaah does not treat anybody unfairly. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).” [al-Israa’ 17:15].

iii. The one who has been presented with Islam in the clearest fashion; with the evidence and proof and still rejects it is a kafir

This is tbaba123's opinion and interpretation because the koran does not say what tbaba123 is saying. . .The koran is talking about punishment for people that have not heard about the islamic message not about the name the unbelievers are to be called. . .A kafir simply means a person that is an unbeliever. . .simple. . .

Mr_Anony:
What you have just described is a consequence and not a moral law. You are repulsed at the punishment for rape and not that rape itself breaks God's law.
I'll show you what I mean:
If Nigerian law says stealing is wrong and the punishment for stealing 5 naira is 40 years in prison, I am not repulsed by the law against theft, however I may be repulsed that the punishment is 40yrs in prison
If on the other hand, Nigerian law says stealing is right and if you steal 5 naira you get 40 years in paradise, then I am repulsed at such a law for condoning stealing. the consequence in itself is not repulsive in this case

The consequence it self is part of the law. . .Retributions are parts of the law of a society. . .In this case marrying the victim itself is part of the law even though its a punishment. . .

The injunction for women not to speak or teach men in the church is another example of a law that is repulsive to many today. . .

Kay 17:

In your worldview, what's the difference btw God's Law and Morality.

Most morals do come with the idea of a commensurate penalty.

In my worldview, God by nature is way too holy and abhors sin of any kind. God's law is written in our hearts and this is our conscience and it is a mechanism that makes us feel guilt when we do wrong and joy when we do right. No one teaches us these things.
We are not born with an idea of commensurate penalty. This is what comes from society. Evil is evil and good is good irrespective of how much or how little we punish or reward it.
For instance adultery/cheating is wrong by default anywhere you go, humans by nature are monogamous and want exclusivity with their spouses, marriage is a legal agreement that helps solidify this nature of ours. Now there are different levels of punishments for adultery in different places and according to how permissive the society's law is, we train our conscience whether to take it seriously or not, this doesn't mean that adultery is ever morally right.

mazaje:

The consequence it self is part of the law. . .Retributions are parts of the law of a society. . .In this case marrying the victim itself is part of the law even though its a punishment. . .

The injunction for women not to speak or teach men in the church is another example of a law that is repulsive to many today. . .

I thought we have talked about circumstantial law vs moral law before. Yes retribution is part of the law, but moral law mustn't be tied to a specific reward and punishment system. In moral law, good is rewarded and evil is punished the extent of the consequences different societies choose may differ but good and evil remain fixed.

mazaje:

This is tbaba123's opinion and interpretation because the koran does not say what tbaba123 is saying. . .The koran is talking about punishment for people that have not heard about the islamic message not about the name the unbelievers are to be called. . .A kafir simply means a person that is an unbeliever. . .simple. . .

I can give you dictionary references if you want... kaffir is an arabic word...

The Quran never talks about punishment for the one who has not heard about Islam... In Islam theology, that person will be tested by God on the last day to determine his destination... The Quran talks of those in hell:

‘… Every time a group is cast therein [into Hell], its keeper will ask, “Did no warner come to you?” They will say, “Yes indeed; a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: ‘Allaah never sent down anything (of revelation), you are only in great error.’”’ [al-Mulk 67:8]

The prophet talks about those who do not hear this message: There are four (who will protest) to Allaah on the Day of Resurrection: the deaf man who never heard anything, the insane man, the very old man, and the man who died during the fatrah. The deaf man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.’ The insane man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but the children ran after me and threw stones at me.’ The very old man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I did not understand anything.’ The man who died during the fatrah will say, ‘O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.’ He will accept their promises of obedience, then word will be sent to them to enter the Fire. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.” (The hadeeth was reported by Imaam Ahmad and Ibn Hibbaan)

They will not be punished;

This position of islamic theology is that one who dies without hearing anything of Islam will not be punished; If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allaah will test him on the Day of Resurrection: if he obeys, he will enter Paradise and if he disobeys he will enter Hell.

Everyone who hears the message of Islam in a sound and correct form (and rejects it), will have evidence aginst him.

Mr_Anony:

In my worldview, God by nature is way too holy and abhors sin of any kind. God's law is written in our hearts and this is our conscience and it is a mechanism that makes us feel guilt when we do wrong and joy when we do right. No one teaches us these things.

False, if this is true, then why to parents spend a lot of time teaching their children the difference btw right and wrong?. . .Which of god's law is written in the hearts of the ancient mayans or ancient cannibalistic tribe of australia for example?. . .

We are not born with an idea of commensurate penalty. This is what comes from society. Evil is evil and good is good irrespective of how much or how little we punish or reward it.
For instance adultery/cheating on ones spouse is wrong by default anywhere you go, humans by nature are monogamous and want exclusivity with their spouses, marriage is a legal agreement that helps solidify this nature of ours. Now there are different levels of punishments for adultery in different places and according to how permissive it is, we train our conscience whether to take it seriously or not, this doesn't mean that adultery is ever morally right.

False, some people believe in open marriage and it is quite common in some places, they see nothing wrong with it. . .Humans are NOT monogamous, polygamy is very common in many parts of the world today, monogamy is fairly recent in human history. . .

tbaba1234:

I can give you dictionary references if you want... kaffir is an arabic word...

The Quran never talks about punishment for the one who has not heard about Islam... In Islam theology, that person will be tested by God on the last day to determine his destination... The Quran talks of those in hell:

‘… Every time a group is cast therein [into Hell], its keeper will ask, “Did no warner come to you?” They will say, “Yes indeed; a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: ‘Allaah never sent down anything (of revelation), you are only in great error.’”’ [al-Mulk 67:8]

The prophet talks about those who do not hear this message: There are four (who will protest) to Allaah on the Day of Resurrection: the deaf man who never heard anything, the insane man, the very old man, and the man who died during the fatrah. The deaf man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.’ The insane man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but the children ran after me and threw stones at me.’ The very old man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I did not understand anything.’ The man who died during the fatrah will say, ‘O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.’ He will accept their promises of obedience, then word will be sent to them to enter the Fire. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.” (The hadeeth was reported by Imaam Ahmad and Ibn Hibbaan)

They will not be punished;

This position of islamic theology is that one who dies without hearing anything of Islam will not be punished; If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allaah will test him on the Day of Resurrection: if he obeys, he will enter Paradise and if he disobeys he will enter Hell.

Everyone who hears the message of Islam in a sound and correct form (and rejects it), will have evidence aginst him.

What are you on about?. . .Kaffir simply means an unbeliever, what exactly is all this long epistle all about?. . .

mazaje: What are you on about?. . .Kaffir simply means an unbeliever, what exactly is all this long epistle all about?. . .

I have given the meaning; but we are free to believe what we want....

tbaba1234:

I have given the meaning; but we are free to believe what we want....

You have given your own concocted meaning. . .From wikipedia. . .

Kafir (Arabic: كافر‎ kāfir, plural كفّار kuffār) is an Arabic term used in a Islamic doctrinal sense, usually translated as "unbeliever", "disbeliever" or "infidel". The term refers to a person who rejects God or who hides, denies, or covers the "truth".

tbaba1234:

Wrong, a kafir is not an unbeliever....

A better term is a disbeliever....

The meaning of the word kafir is 'to hide' or 'to reject' truth... like a farmer who buries seeds...

Disbeliever and unbeliever have almost the same meaning. . .

mazaje:

You have given your own concocted meaning. . .From wikipedia. . .

Kafir (Arabic: كافر‎ kāfir, plural كفّار kuffār) is an Arabic term used in a Islamic doctrinal sense, usually translated as "unbeliever", "disbeliever" or "infidel". The term refers to a person who rejects God or who hides, denies, or covers the "truth".

Key word: 'Usually translated'.... but that is inaccurate- Not all translation are correct...

Not all unbelievers hide, deny or cover the truth: The second line is more accurate...

I an

mazaje:

False, if this is true, then why to parents spend a lot of time teaching their children the difference btw right and wrong?. . .Which of god's law is written in the hearts of the ancient mayans or ancient cannibalistic tribe of australia for example?. . .

I have dealt with this before on this thread, What parents teach their children is societal norms. Recent studies show that babies as young as 6 months old actually have a sense of morality http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1275892/Were-born-moral-Babies-tell-good-evil-months.html

False, some people believe in open marriage and it is quite common in some places, they see nothing wrong with it. . .Humans are NOT monogamous, polygamy is very common in many parts of the world today, monogamy is fairly recent in human history. . .

Practicing open marriage and seeing nothing wrong with polygamy does not automatically justify it morally.
You may disagree with this but it is not possible to be in love with more than one person at the same time. Mind you I didn't say lust but actually being in love.

When two people are in love, they mutually want to be exclusive to each other and that is why people get jealous if their partner "cheats" This jealousy will still exist even if they are in a polygamous or open marriage relationship. What is even more interesting is that this form jealousy is not laden with guilt as would be seen in covetous jealousy

tbaba1234:

Key word: 'Usually translated'.... but that is inaccurate- Not all translation are correct...

Not all unbelievers hide, deny or cover the truth: The second line is more accurate...

I an

Unbelievers reject god, no?. . .

mazaje:

In the reality we see around us. . .Because allah exist as well, tbaba123 is also on this thread, he has every reason and evidence to show you that allah exist. Allah exist and is also the moral giver, go ask the muslims. . .

Lol, so you are trying to start a fight between me and tbaba abi? No problem, earlier in the thread I stated 7 standards which a being must meet to qualify as ultimate judge. If tbaba's deity meets those conditions in full, then he is essentially the same as mine however our interpretations of God may differ but only one must be true. Now I don't want to start a theological debate with tbaba (at least not on this thread)

It may interest you to know that the three major monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam all tend to describe (at least functionally) the same God

The point is that it is not possible to have multiple gods existing and have any true morality. It must be one God hence the christian worldview is appropriate for defining morality.

Mr_Anony:
I have dealt with this before on this thread, What parents teach their children is societal norms. Recent studies show that babies as young as 6 months old actually have a sense of morality http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1275892/Were-born-moral-Babies-tell-good-evil-months.html

I disagree with this study because if it is true then parents will not spend a lot of time teaching their kids the difference between right and wrong. . .Your statement is very false, parents do not teach their kids societal norms but basic moral values. . . .if you have been around parents with kids you will notice that the parents teach the kids that it is wrong to tell lies, wrong to carry a child's toy that is not yours. . .and wrong to beat up another child just because you are bigger than that child, parents spend a lot of time teaching their kids that. . .I disagree with the research because if it is true then parents will not need to spend a lot of time teaching their kids the difference btw right and wrong, the fact that parents spend a lot of time doing that renders the research false. . .

Practicing open marriage and seeing nothing wrong with polygamy does not automatically justify it morally.
You may disagree with this but it is not possible to be in love with more than one person at the same time. Mind you I didn't say lust but actually being in love.

It is very possible to be inlove with two people at the same time. . .Go ask the polygamist with two wives. . .

When two people are in love, they mutually want to be exclusive to each other and that is why people get jealous if their partner "cheats" This jealousy will still exist even if they are in a polygamous or open marriage relationship. What is even more interesting is that this form jealousy is not laden with guilt as would be seen in covetous jealousy

False, these are actually conditional, a lady that grew up in a polygamous society that has been taught that there is nothing wrong with polygamy might not posses this jealousy. . . .Her upbringing and indoctrination about polygamy will do away with such jealous feelings. . .Same with the parents that used to happily sacrifice their twin daughters believing that they were evil back in the says. . .They felt no pain because they did it happily. . .That feeling of grief has been taking away by indoctrination and societal way of life. . .

mazaje:

I disagree with this study because if it is true then parents will not spend a lot of time teaching their kids the difference between right and wrong. . .Your statement is very false, parents do not teach their kids societal norms but basic moral values. . . .if you have been around parents with kids you will notice that the parents teach the kids that it is wrong to tell lies, wrong to carry a child's toy that is not yours. . .and wrong to beat up another child just because you are bigger than that child, parents spend a lot of time teaching their kids that. . .I disagree with the research because if it is true then parents will not need to spend a lot of time teaching their kids the difference btw right and wrong, the fact that parents spend a lot of time doing that renders the research false. . .

Well, you are entitled to your opinions but facts remain facts.

It is very possible to be inlove with two people at the same time. . .Go ask the polygamist with two wives. . .
False, these are actually conditional, a lady that grew up in a polygamous society that has been taught that there is nothing wrong with polygamy might not posses this jealousy. . . .Her upbringing and indoctrination about polygamy will do away with such jealous feelings. . .Same with the parents that used to happily sacrifice their twin daughters believing that they were evil back in the says. . .They felt no pain because they did it happily. . .That feeling of grief has been taking away by indoctrination and societal way of life. . .

On this point, I will not argue further with you not because you are right but because we would be making subjective arguments with no way to know for sure. From a christian viewpoint however, evil is still evil even if one blunts his/her conscience to it. Morality must not be tied to our feelings. True morality must stand on it's own and must be divorced from individual perceptions.