Mr_Anony:
Good, now the pastors you mentioned have a written moral code which they have failed. The atheist doesn't have such a moral code.

So I ask: Is it reasonable to compare an atheist who isn't bound by any moral code and hence cannot possibly fail to an inexistent moral code to a pastor who defaulted his moral code?
I'll let you be the judge of that.

I have no right to judge a hypocrite or a fraud or a pedophile because I a an atheist? Is that your argument?

MacDaddy01:

Not because some are peadophiles, tithe frauds and liars?


Get the F**K out of here!

It's best to watch what you say about men of God? Who,are you to judge? You have sometin wrong with them? Shut up or pray for them. May you not receive the wrath of God o. You would even forget it was your careless words here today that's causing whatever it can be. Refuse to annoy God.

Why? To get people's attention, of course. They need to keep the followers engaged and interested. What lies in the bible is getting less and less relevant in today's world.It is no longer enough to keep the interest, thus the scandals. Entertainment to the core.

MacDaddy01: Why? Why are the most popular pastors, priests, popes, internet evangelists always guilty of one scandal or the other?


Benny Hinn

Oyedepo

Creflo Dollar

Shockofgod

Okotie

Pat Robertson


etc.



Why are these guys always failing under scrutiny? Why? It seems that every big pastor on TV fails when they come under scrutiny. Why?

Why doesnt this happen to top atheists or agnostics?

fumisko:

It's best to watch what you say about men of God? Who,are you to judge? You have sometin wrong with them? Shut up or pray for them. May you not receive the wrath of God o. You would even forget it was your careless words here today that's causing whatever it can be. Refuse to annoy God.

Seems you havent met an atheist. I dont believe in God.


A pastor that is a scammer does not need prayer, he needs a prison sentence

Let's see.
It was not my intention to insult. Just wanted you to understand that you were insult'm all atheists. You doubted that atheists have early mor als, and that's an insult, disrespect ... I do not doubt that atheists are immoral, but not any more than Christians are without morals.
It seems that you live in a world of black and white. You believe that all Christians are good and others are all bad ...
You are totally wrong, or they sold a mailbox.
Well, I do not entered the forum to make enemies, quite the opposite.

Jenwitemi: Why? To get people's attention, of course. They need to keep the followers engaged and interested. What lies in the bible is getting less and less relevant in today's world.It is no longer enough to keep the interest, thus the scandals. Entertainment to the core.

LMAO

fumisko: Because the church of God which include men of God must suffer persecution for Christ sake in the end times. Dint you read it in your bible? All we need do is pray for them. Remember Paul, Peter e.t.c it's just the same. But you know what. The will always be victorious at the end. All this will make sense later on

No one is persecuted for believing in a god. Christians worship feel victimized.
I applaud what you said MacDaddy01. "the pastors needs a prison sentence"

MacDaddy01:

Seems you havent met an atheist. I dont believe in God.


A pastor that is a scammer does not need prayer, he needs a prison sentence

Ok I would ask you a question. Am not trying to prove God exist its just a neutral one and think over it. These are two scenes. If God exist there is heaven and hell and if he doesn't there is none.
Ok so if there is God, you will live with his rules on earth which equals morally right life e.g do not cheat, fornicate etc which are good stuffs to do even for the atheist. And if one dies and there is God you make heaven. If no God, you lived well on earth then. Either ways you have nothing to loose.

Now, there is no God. You live good or bad. But most times the live bad. Refuse to accept God etc. assume this person dies and there is no God.good for him. But what if there is God then it's he'll straight. So he would loose if there is a God
Remember the atheist are not sure about God. The say what if there is no God. But I ask differently what if there is God? What happens to them then?

fumisko:
Ok I would ask you a question. Am not trying to prove God exist its just a neutral one and think over it. These are two scenes. If God exist there is heaven and hell and if he doesn't there is none.
Ok so if there is God, you will live with his rules on earth which equals morally right life e.g do not cheat, fornicate etc which are good stuffs to do even for the atheist. And if one dies and there is God you make heaven. If no God, you lived well on earth then. Either ways you have nothing to loose.

Now, there is no God. You live good or bad. But most times the live bad. Refuse to accept God etc. assume this person dies and there is no God.good for him. But what if there is God then it's he'll straight. So he would loose if there is a God
Remember the atheist are not sure about God. The say what if there is no God. But I ask differently what if there is God? What happens to them then?

Please read about the failure of Pascal's wager;

http://riatheist.com/blog/2011/10/03/pascals-wager-debunked/

Lol! Why bother rising if all you are going to do is fall yakata back down again, eh, Mr Anony?

Mr_Anony:

First of all, not every pastor is failing. But then, the reason why pastors can fail is because they have a code of conduct by which they are judged by.
An atheist/agnostic has no such code of conduct. How can a man fail if he doesn't first rise?

Jenwitemi: Lol! Why bother rising if all you are going to do is fall yakata back down again, eh, Mr Anony?

lol, while I appreciate the humour in your comment, you do realize it really doesn't have any bearing on the argument I am having with logicboy

MacDaddy01:

I have no right to judge a hypocrite or a fraud or a pedophile because I a an atheist? Is that your argument?

That is not my argument. My argument is that it is unreasonable to judge two people based on totally different criteria.

Mr_Anony:
That is not my argument. My argument is that it is unreasonable to judge two people based on totally different criteria.

Huh? What the hell are you talking about? The pastors are all under the laws of the land and there is also human rights.


Your argument is stupid. I have every right to judge the pastors, they are not above the law or human rights.

What different criteria are you talking about? Pastors commit tithe fraud, paedophilia, extra marital affairs etc in hypocrisy and you have the nerve to tell me that I dont have morals to judge them? Are you sick? We dont live far from each other, dont let me drive down and slap you.

MacDaddy01:

Huh? What the hell are you talking about? The pastors are all under the laws of the land and there is also human rights.


Your argument is stupid. I have every right to judge the pastors, they are not above the law or human rights.

What different criteria are you talking about? Pastors commit tithe fraud, paedophilia, extra marital affairs etc in hypocrisy and you have the nerve to tell me that I dont have morals to judge them? Are you sick? We dont live far from each other, dont let me drive down and slap you.

Lol' you are funny, so it has now come to physical threats abi? It seems you just like to hear only what you want to hear (I know you understood me but chose to play dumb).

Well, if that is the case i.e. the criteria you are judging them by is the law (constitutional law) and human rights, please tell me then how these people you mentioned have broken the law (mind you according to the law, they are innocent until proven guilty). Let us view things from a strictly legal viewpoint.

Benny Hinn

Oyedepo

Creflo Dollar

Shockofgod

Okotie

Pat Robertson.

Mr_Anony:

Lol' you are funny, so it has now come to physical threats abi? It seems you just like to hear only what you want to hear (I know you understood me but chose to play dumb).

Well, if that is the case i.e. the criteria you are judging them by is the law (constitutional law) and human rights, please tell me then how these people you mentioned have broken the law (mind you according to the law, they are innocent until proven guilty). Let us view things from a strictly legal viewpoint.

Benny Hinn

Oyedepo

Creflo Dollar

Shockofgod

Okotie

Pat Robertson.

Guy, of course I am not going to slap you!


You are he one playing dumb. Did I not ask you if your argument was that I could not judge hypocrites because I am an atheist?


However, when I said human rights, I had pedophile priests and child slapping/abusing pastors.

As for the people yo mentioned all of them have been caught lying and behaving hypocritcal from tithe fraud to fake prophecies etc. Hypocrites they are

MacDaddy01:
Guy, of course I am not going to slap you!
You are he one playing dumb. Did I not ask you if your argument was that I could not judge hypocrites because I am an atheist?
However, when I said human rights, I had pedophile priests and child slapping/abusing pastors.
As for the people yo mentioned all of them have been caught lying and behaving hypocritcal from tithe fraud to fake prophecies etc. Hypocrites they are

Of course i knew you were joking about the slap. Even if you actually got angry, what could you possibly do? choke-hold your monitor?? Lol, that's by the way.

Now I'll repeat my point again in reference to your original post and hope that this time you get it. A man can only be a hypocrite if he holds a position that he can be hypocritical to. A christian has to abide by the code of conduct of the bible and that is what these pastors failed to.
The atheist does not have such a code of conduct therefore he can not possibly be hypocritical to something that doesn't exist for him.
This is why I said it is unreasonable to judge two people using different criteria.

If you want to judge by human rights and constitutional law, then there are also atheist lawbreakers as well as religious ones.

Either way, your premise doesn't hold that much water.

I hope you understand what I am saying now before you fly of on another tangent and make this about yourself again. I have never questioned your right to judge pastors or anyone else, all I ask is that you judge properly.

Mr_Anony:

Lol' you are funny, so it has now come to physical threats abi? It seems you just like to hear only what you want to hear (I know you understood me but chose to play dumb).

Well, if that is the case i.e. the criteria you are judging them by is the law (constitutional law) and human rights, please tell me then how these people you mentioned have broken the law (mind you according to the law, they are innocent until proven guilty). Let us view things from a strictly legal viewpoint.

Benny Hinn

Oyedepo

Creflo Dollar

Shockofgod

Okotie

Pat Robertson.

Oyedepo committed assault and battery recorded on video on a minor.

Please, you know very well he would not have gotten away with that in a civilized country - don't lie.

Deep Sight:

Oyedepo committed assault and battery recorded on video on a minor.

Please, you know very well he would not have gotten away with that in a civilized country - don't lie.

Dude relax I know, I am not supporting Oyedepo's actions in anyway. I haven't lied either, if you followed my argument with logicboy from the beginning you would have understood how that comment seats in.

Mr_Anony:

First of all, not every pastor is failing. But then, the reason why pastors can fail is because they have a code of conduct by which they are judged by.
An atheist/agnostic has no such code of conduct. How can a man fail if he doesn't first rise?

A very wrong premise that of course leads to faulty conclusions.

The pastors do not have a code of conduct by which they are judged as such. Do they?
Remember 'touch not my anointed' verse.

Saying an atheist/agnostic has no such code of conduct is suggesting, maybe faintly, that an atheist/agnostic has no conscience/morals.
And what does rising have to with failing? A plane could fail to takeoff, right?

It does, actually. What is the point of this "code of conduct" that you talk about when all these men of whatever are not going to keep to it? The way i think of this is that if you can't keep to a code of conduct, then you don't have it. Simple.

Mr_Anony:
lol, while I appreciate the humour in your comment, you do realize it really doesn't have any bearing on the argument I am having with logicboy

Jenwitemi: It does, actually. What is the point of this "code of conduct" that you talk about when all these men of whatever are not going to keep to it? The way i think of this is that if you can't keep to a code of conduct, then you don't have it. Simple.

Lol, fair enough then if that is the case, you can't judge someone based on a nonexistent code of conduct. In other words, they haven't really failed anything.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, fair enough then if that is the case, you can't judge someone based on a nonexistent code of conduct. In other words, they haven't really failed anything.

And this is fair enough?

musKeeto:

A very wrong premise that of course leads to faulty conclusions.

The pastors do not have a code of conduct by which they are judged as such. Do they?
Remember 'touch not my anointed' verse.

Saying an atheist/agnostic has no such code of conduct is suggesting, maybe faintly, that an atheist/agnostic has no conscience/morals.
And what does rising have to with failing? A plane could fail to takeoff, right?

Well, my friend, I do not see how my premise is wrong but then, If as you say the pastors do not have a code of conduct by which they are judged, then they cannot possibly fail or can they?

Te question was never about an atheist's conscience. There is no atheist/agnostic moral code of conduct that I know of and that we can hold atheists/agnostics accountable to.

Rising/falling: By nature of being a pastor, a person exposes himself criticism based on his stated beliefs i.e. the bible. An atheist isn't exposed in the same way because he doesn't have any beliefs.
All I am saying is that it is unreasonable to compare that pastors fail while atheists do not because they are not on the same playing field and what is a scandal for a pastor is usually not a scandal for an atheist.

musKeeto:
And this is fair enough?

Read it again (in context this time). Or perhaps you are more interested in picking a fight? to which I'm afraid I share no such interest.

Mr_Anony:
Well, my friend, I do not see how my premise is wrong but then, If as you say the pastors do not have a code of conduct by which they are judged, then they cannot possibly fail or can they?

Te question was never about an atheist's conscience. There is no atheist/agnostic moral code of conduct that I know of and that we can hold atheists/agnostics accountable to.

Rising/falling: By nature of being a pastor, a person exposes himself criticism based on his stated beliefs i.e. the bible. An atheist isn't exposed in the same way because he doesn't have any beliefs.
All I am saying is that it is unreasonable to compare that pastors fail while atheists do not because they are not on the same playing field and what is a scandal for a pastor is usually not a scandal for an atheist.

This is why you are a christian. You have no appreciation for common sense and logic when it comes to religious matters. Athiest might not have beliefs but we as human beings have a sense of morality that all human beings have. Does morality come from your God or the Bible? Do I need the 10 commandments before i know not to kill and steal or to be a hypocrite. Your bible tells people to keep women silent in churches and slaves should obey masters.


The pastors are theieves and hypocrites. How does being an atheist stop me from judging hypocrites? Are you dense?

Mr_Anony:
Well, my friend, I do not see how my premise is wrong but then, If as you say the pastors do not have a code of conduct by which they are judged, then they cannot possibly fail or can they?

Te question was never about an atheist's conscience. There is no atheist/agnostic moral code of conduct that I know of and that we can hold atheists/agnostics accountable to.

Rising/falling: By nature of being a pastor, a person exposes himself criticism based on his stated beliefs i.e. the bible. An atheist isn't exposed in the same way because he doesn't have any beliefs.
All I am saying is that it is unreasonable to compare that pastors fail while atheists do not because they are not on the same playing field and what is a scandal for a pastor is usually not a scandal for an atheist.

'CODE of CONDUCT' vs Conscience, man...
There is a 'CODE of CONDUCT' for different establishments/institutions. Conscience, in a general sense, guides humanity.
Why should there be a CODE OF CONDUCT for atheists? Is atheism a religion or group? Every human is accountable to his/her conscience.

By nature of being a pastor? LMAO...
Anyone exposes themselves to criticism whether their beliefs are based on the Bible or not. Wonder why celebrities and athletes also have scandals? John Terry, for example..

MacDaddy01:



This is why you are a christian. You have no appreciation for common sense and logic when it comes to religious matters. Athiest might not have beliefs but we as human beings have a sense of morality that all human beings have. Does morality come from your God or the Bible? Do I need the 10 commandments before i know not to kill and steal or to be a hypocrite. Your bible tells people to keep women silent in churches and slaves should obey masters.


The pastors are theieves and hypocrites. How does being an atheist stop me from judging hypocrites? Are you dense?

Here we go again. Typical of you to argue in brownian motion.

Let's stay on topic (please don't run away when I question you only to come back and comment on my answer to another person. That is cowardly)

Let us start from the topic of your thread:

Why Is That The Most Influential Christian Leaders Are Always Scandalous?

How do you know for sure that they are ALWAYS scandalous?

You mentioned the following:

Benny Hinn
Oyedepo
Creflo Dollar
Shockofgod
Okotie
Pat Robertson.

By what criteria are you judging them? And can the same criteria be applied when judging atheists/agnostics? Because this was your question

Why are these guys always failing under scrutiny? Why? It seems that every big pastor on TV fails when they come under scrutiny. Why?
Why doesnt this happen to top atheists or agnostics?

Note: I have never said don't judge anybody, All I have asked is that you name a common criteria from which we can proceed with judgment.

musKeeto:
'CODE of CONDUCT' vs Conscience, man...
There is a 'CODE of CONDUCT' for different establishments/institutions. Conscience, in a general sense, guides humanity.
Why should there be a CODE OF CONDUCT for atheists? Is atheism a religion or group? Every human is accountable to his/her conscience.

By nature of being a pastor? LMAO...
Anyone exposes themselves to criticism whether their beliefs are based on the Bible or not. Wonder why celebrities and athletes also have scandals? John Terry, for example..

This exactly my argument with logicboy. There is no code of conduct for atheism therefore there cannot possibly be a scandal. It is unreasonable to then compare and say "why do pastors have scandals while atheists don't?"

For instance, it is a scandal if a pastor divorces his wife. For an atheist on the other hand, it is not a scandal to divorce his wife. Do you think it reasonable to now compare them against each other on the same morality scale?

Mr_Anony:

Here we go again. Typical of you to argue in brownian motion.

Let's stay on topic (please don't run away when I question you only to come back and comment on my answer to another person. That is cowardly)

Let us start from the topic of your thread:
How do you know for sure that they are ALWAYS scandalous?

You mentioned the following:


By what criteria are you judging them? And can the same criteria be applied when judging atheists/agnostics? Because this was your question



Note: I have never said don't judge anybody, All I have asked is that you name a common criteria from which we can proceed with judgment.

1) They are always scandalous because their scandals have been exposed to the public as they are public figures. Note that I am only talking about the most influential/top christian leaders. For instance, Creflo Dollar choked his daughter or Oyedepo slapped a young woman or the lies and bigotry from Pat Robertson.


2) What do you mean what criteria? Do you lack common sense? Hypocrisy, bigotry, theft and abuse. Do you see atheist Richard Dawkings calling a whole nation demonic (Pat Robertson claims Haiti did a deal with the devil and thats the reason for the earthquake). Do you see Sam Harris or Hitchens engaging in fraud?

MacDaddy01:
1) They are always scandalous because their scandals have been exposed to the public as they are public figures. Note that I am only talking about the most influential/top christian leaders. For instance, Creflo Dollar choked his daughter or Oyedepo slapped a young woman or the lies and bigotry from Pat Robertson.

You realize that "always" is an absolute and all I have to do is provide one exception and your argument will be refuted
I'll give you a few: Kirk Cameron, Reinhard Bonkke, W.F. Kumuyi

MacDaddy01: 2) What do you mean what criteria? Do you lack common sense? Hypocrisy, bigotry, theft and abuse. Do you see atheist Richard Dawkings calling a whole nation demonic (Pat Robertson claims Haiti did a deal with the devil and thats the reason for the earthquake). Do you see Sam Harris or Hitchens engaging in fraud?

Criteria 1: Hypocrisy: It is impossible to have an atheist/theist hypocrite in the strict sense of the word. It is either you believe in God or you don't
Criteria 2: Bigotry: Richard Dawkins wrote a whole book calling theists deluded. For more atheist bigotry, check out the youtube channel of AmazingAtheist, Mao Zedong killed religious people because according to him "religion is poison"
Criteria 3: Theft: Bill Gates ripped off Steve Jobs' idea
Criteria 4: Abuse: Stalin, Chairman Mao

Are you happy now?

MacDaddy01:
2) What do you mean what criteria? Do you lack common sense? Hypocrisy, bigotry, theft and abuse. Do you see atheist Richard Dawkings calling a whole nation demonic (Pat Robertson claims Haiti did a deal with the devil and thats the reason for the earthquake). Do you see Sam Harris or Hitchens engaging in fraud?

So, those three are your "holy trinity"?? You are like one of those people who stopped being religious after reading "the god delusion"; then placed Dawkins on a pedestal.
SMH.

Mr_Anony:
You realize that "always" is an absolute and all I have to do is provide one exception and your argument will be refuted
I'll give you a few: Kirk Cameron, Reinhard Bonkke, W.F. Kumuyi

Reinhard Bonkke is a liar- he claimed that a man was raised from the dead by his preaching;
http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/bonnke_raisedpastor.aspx

Kirk Cameron; "homosexuality is unnatural, detrimental and ultimately destructive to foundations of civilization". How is that possible? How can homosexuals destroy nations or civilization? Lies and bigotry.

Kumuyi; "DLBC's website maintains a set of "testimonials," from people, which claim supernatural healings that have occurred as a result of prayers being offered by Pastor Kumuyi. These claims include the reversal of paralysis, spontaneous growth of limbs, spontaneous disappearance of mental diseases, and other such testimonies". Lies, deceit.

Mr_Anony:
Criteria 1: Hypocrisy: It is impossible to have an atheist/theist hypocrite in the strict sense of the word. It is either you believe in God or you don't
Criteria 2: Bigotry: Richard Dawkins wrote a whole book calling theists deluded. For more atheist bigotry, check out the youtube channel of AmazingAtheist, Mao Zedong killed religious people because according to him "religion is poison"
Criteria 3: Theft: Bill Gates ripped off Steve Jobs' idea
Criteria 4: Abuse: Stalin, Chairman Mao

Are you happy now?

Criteria 1; You re foolish. Anybody can be a hypocrite. If anyone does a contrary action to what he says, he is a hypocrite. A pastor saying homosexuality is devilish while having gay sex is a hypocrite. If an atheist does the same, he is a hypocrite

Criteria 2; Please, put forward the Richard Dawkings quote. A factual statement is not bigotry. If I say that people who believe in flying into heaven are deluded , it is a factual statement. Can be seen as offensive but offensive is not the same as bigotry. I am offended that people say that religion should have a place in politics.

Furthermore; Mao Zedong and Stalin were communists. Communism is a state religion. Both Mao and Stalin have been dead before we were born.

Please give e the amazing atheists quote that you feel is bigotry. The Amazingatheist is also a professional ranter as he calls himself.


Criteria 3; That is slander and you would be in court if you said that in a newspaper. Stop lying about Bill Gatses and Steve Jobs.


Criteria 4; Communism is a state religion