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Nairaland's Literary & Debating Day - FINALS - Literature (3) - Nairaland

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Re: Nairaland's Literary & Debating Day - FINALS by Nobody: 9:06pm On Jul 22, 2012
coogar:

Except that Godfatherism cannot be a vehicle because a vehicle cannot employ a driver.
The analogy falls flat in it's face and the premise of your argument becomes spineless. There's a direct relationship between Godfatherism and corruption/political violence in Nigeria.

Godfatherism is both the cause/symptom of the corruption in Nigeria. Let it be known that truth and knowledge cannot and should never be substituted for falsehood and ignorance. We are a country destined for doom, for good or for bad in obedience to the natural law of retributive justice if we continue to pretend Godfatherism isn't the major cause of corruption in Nigeria.

We cannot look beyond Godfatherism. There has been so much motion but little movement since independence.
Nigeria is a republic and not a monarchy. Nonetheless, the people that ruled our grand-fathers, our fathers, are still the ones ruling you and I. I would have thought the solution was pretty obvious to you. Albert Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I say it's time we make a drastic change.

Heroism and symbolism have been politicized. Godfatherism corrupted democracy and democratized corruption. Nigeria needs a thorough overhaul of its political engine. There is very little to guise when it comes to Nigeria's travails. Ours is an ailment that needs complete life-saving surgical repair and yet you think we should look beyond Godfatherism even when it's so glaring that these Godfathers are the bane of our problems.


Godfatherism is synonymous with a vehicle. . .because it is not far from the truth that Godfatherism is not an end but a means to an end (corruption)
The Noble Laurette Wole Soyinka was exact and seemed to agree with this when he pointed that Obasanjo was a huge mastermind of Godfatherism as a ploy to keep his party in power forever.
Now you can agree with me that Obasanjo allowed Godfatherism. . .and also that Godfatherism causes corruption. Not so?
In essence this leads us to say Obasanjo exibited some form of corruption during his LEADERSHIP(Chech out on his electricity fund misappropriatio).

Now if Obasanjo's and some inappropriate policies sponsored this present trend of Godfatherism, then dont you see that inappropriate political structures, policing and even leadership crisis are even STRONGER causes of corruption in the nation.

I put it to you today that WHAT MOST PEOPLE WANT is a change in inappropraite leadership. . .
because a corrupt leadership has many vices to achieve its ends and the foundation is STRONGER than the periphery.
Godfatherism is not the foundation so you can AGREE with me that people would rather prefer a total overhaul and change inappropraite leadership and political party system and structures, and in useless policies(such as those that hinder the law from questioning the source of huge funds for political party campaigns), to mere removal of bits of vices like Godfatherism, nepotism, favoritism and the like.
And so again I say and you can AGREE with me that you need to look beyond Godfatherism as the major cause of corruption in the nation.
Re: Nairaland's Literary & Debating Day - FINALS by coogar: 9:08pm On Jul 22, 2012
breezy047: Rebuttal to Coogar's agguement
Perhaps what will be obtuse here is the empty absence of lucid and raw facts to back each and every major ‘concerns’ of this great topic. And that is why before every one here now I indulge you to freely express to us how this present trend of Godfatherism that began with the Obasanjo regime is responsible for the sheer penury like you perhaps erroneously posited. . .
when historical records, Wikipedia (the online encyclopedia) and the Nigeria National Poverty Profile exactly states that this regime (Ibrahim Babangida regime) sky-rocketed penury and national poverty was at an inconvenient peak.

Let's cut it close now and compare the standard of living in Nigeria under IBB to the democratic-elected president, OBJ. Nigerians were not buying fuel at N70 under IBB. Democracy actually fosters corruption. This is not to say the Military were not corrupt in those days but they have not taken it to the dizzying heights we have seen since 1999. How do you explain the N1 Billion your president spends on food in a year?





As you know that I stand here today to debate against this topic. With great patience, I have gone through these 2 paragraphs of your arguement carefully but still the STAND of my debate has remained UNCHALLENGED. . .
Because the content of these 2 paragraphs as we see is only a brief speech on the state of the country and this is extremely far from and completely diverted from the topic of the great debate.
To solve the current problem of corruption and developmental crisis in this nation we will look beyond Godfatherism, beyond diversion and distractions (perhaps like you are doing in these 2 paragraphs) and beyond the circumferential emotions and speeches of what has happened.
We will look at the deeper at the foundation.

You have not advanced your argument a single jot here....Why should we look beyond Godfatherism. You are making a huge error with this line of thought. Sometimes, the people occupying the political posts are also the Godfathers. The 2 roles are not mutually exclusive.





Perhaps you may need to clear out this supposed misconception here
Is it all Godfathers that lack ethical decorum and morals?.
Taking Tinubu as a case study. ..
Would you please point out painstakingly whatever ethical or moral misconduct Tinubu has been convicted of by the law court or propagated by valid and responsible sources of the media.

Thanks for making my point here. Nigeria is such a chaotic country where the gross misconduct of a major player like Tinubu are simply swept under the carpet. In Nigeria, all the Godfathers lack ethical decorum with little or no moral compass.





I feel gratified that you may have consolidated the STAND of my debate here.
If the SYSTEM ALLOWS GODFATHERISM like you posited, and Godfatherism breeds corruption then definitely the SYSTEM itself that welcomes Godfatherism is a MASTER breeder of corruption.
You may now realise from this simple logic that leadership (Ruling party system) and Policing are even STRONGER causes of corruption and developmental crisis in this nation than just Godfatherism.

The system allows Godfatherism because the masses have been rendered poverty-stricken! It's a ploy used by the ruling class to take power and rationality from the hands of the citizens. An hungry man will not think twice to accept bribery in Nigeria.




Put in context of this paragraph you perhaps are indirectly positing that we the people being governed hold a larger percentage of the blame, and stand as even STRONGER cause of corruption in this democracy. . .
Well this is very welcome and accepted by me because it consolidates my STAND on this debate.
Like Bess Myerson quotes: The greatest accomplice to the crime of corruption is frequently our own INDIFFERENCE.
Also Anthony Eden Quotes: Corruption has never been compulsory (except the people governed accept it

So if you agree with me you can see (like you posited in context yourself) that to solve our current brouhaha with corruption, we need to look beyond just Godfatherism and perhaps look even at ourselves (the people governed) as stronger causes of corruption.

If we have a good system in place where Nigerian's citizens are empowered with jobs, crafts, etc...then many people wouldn't even venture into criminal activities. It's difficult to look at ourselves when we have almost been made destitutes by these Godfathers. Do you know how much it costs to perpetrate political violence in Nigeria? For as little as £100, thugs are ready to maim and kill for Politicians.



Like Carl Sagan quotes: One of the lessons of history is ‘if we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We are no longer interested in finding out the REAL truth anymore.

Perhaps you would agree with me that the LOVE you have individually claimed to have for this country is what every Godfather would claim to have for this country too if confronted.
Hence it perhaps appears to be very irrelevant to this debate.
What might be relevant if you agree is that I have just made it clear that though Godfatherism may have some ill effect on this society, there are STRONGER ills which appear to be deeper causes of this corruption and developmental crisis.


There are no stronger ills...The Godfathers are the bane of our problems in Nigeria.


In conclusion here is the FINAL note for all to identify with.
You can agree that there are a good many causes of corruption and under development in this country. You can also agree that Godfatherism admittedly is a cause of corruption in this country.
Now, everyone who follows the trends and historical records are aware that there is a CHAIN TREND OF CORRUPTION in this nation. . .
And in such chain trend, one corrupt practice if left unchecked gives birth to another. . .This is concreted by Charles Caleb Colton's quote: Corruption is like a ball of snow. once its set rolling, it must increase.

It is obvious and exact that in Nigeria inappropriate political structure and inappropraite policing gave birth to Godfatherism, and they are far greater in the business of causing corruption in the nation than Godfatherism.
From this it becomes easier to realise that Godfatherism is not the majorr cause of corruption and developmental crisis in this nation and you need to look beyond it.
Thanks

The above conclusion is a tad myopic.
You cannot strip the citizens of a country off their basic needs and expect them not to be corrupt. This is a country of 40 million unemployed youths. A country where 95% of the population feed on 5% of the country's resources. How exactly do we expect Nigerians to behave in the face of hunger and homelessness? There's a reason Politicians mop the currency in the system. It's to make his kinsmen poor and when they are poor, they bow to his beck and call!
Re: Nairaland's Literary & Debating Day - FINALS by Cuddlemii: 9:10pm On Jul 22, 2012
Judges, I think we should take time off to investigate the debater, Shymmex. If he is found guilty, then he should be disqualified!
We are big on originality, transparency & integrity
Thank you!

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Re: Nairaland's Literary & Debating Day - FINALS by Nobody: 9:14pm On Jul 22, 2012
newacca: I continue to argue that godfatherism is not the main cause of corruption in Nigeria. My fellow debater is centralizing his argument mainly on Obasanjo and PDP,which I believe it is slightly off the line of argument. While he forgets that individual character is quite different from general phenomenon that affects the society. I want to state categorically that godfatherism is not by anyway a major cause of corruption in Nigeria not when indiscipline is a call of the day. Not when the absence of effective rules, regulations and policies are not featuring in the nation.


I disagree with the bolded part. IBB's regime is an example of how an individual character can influence the phenomenon that affects the society. IBB legalized corruption, advanced free fraud, drug trafficking etc. by himself, and his regime was a one-man show. He single-handedly altered our destiny as a country, and got us into this present predicament - yet no one has been able to hold him accountable. And he's still one of the power brokers in the country.

What I am driving out of this is that some leaders have ruled this nation and have held political offices without godfathers, yet they mismanaged funds, and promote different kinds of corruption far beyond godfatherism. Corruption started killing the developmental growth in Nigeria from Shagari administration,Buhari administration,Babangida administration(our case study) These rulers do not have godfathers and godfatherism has not been prominent in the other arms of government in their era,yet corruption practices continue to elevate. If godfatherism does not exist in Nigerian politics,the main causes of corruption in Nigeria will still prevail,unless we change our orientation towards a soceity free of indiscipline and bad culture.

All the names you cited in the quote above were part of the Northern oligarchy, and they all have godfathers. Every decision they made during their tenures was sanctioned at the palace of the Sultan of Sokoto. They were planted there to serve the interests of the North elites - hence, why all the decisions they made during their tenures favoured the Northern establishment, at the expense of the South.

Part 1
Re: Nairaland's Literary & Debating Day - FINALS by newacca: 9:19pm On Jul 22, 2012
Alhaji Ahmadu Bello, the late Sultan of Sokoto, was the political godfather of a lot of young northerners. Understanding the role of politics as well as the military in an evolving country, he placed his godchildren in both institutions. The rewards to northern Nigeria are today self-evident. Chief Obafemi Awolowo was godfather to a large number of today’s Yoruba intelligentsia that have applied and continue to apply his teachings to the benefit of their region. In both instances, the godfathers put the interests of their people before personal gain.
Chief Obafemi Awolowo was godfather to a large number of today's political figures and his view were shared among this inteligentsia,and they have applied and continue to apply is teaching to benefit their society. Alhaji Ahmadu Bello was political godfather to lot of young northerners during his days. He placed his godchildren in both military and politics institutions,and the rewards to northern Nigeria today are from his support. In the examples provided here,godfatherism is seen as a positive practice that benefits the godchildren and the larger society.

The culture that encourages people to spend huge amount of money on irrelevant parties from Burial ceremony to Remembrance of the dead,which will eventually dig big hole in their pocket. The culture that gives chance to bribery by paving way for gift giving as normal expressions of loyalty or tributes to traditional rulers may be fabrics of the society. The society where wealthy people are placed high.even where and how the wealth is accumulated is no of consequence. You must be joking to argue that our culture is not rooted in corruption.

Do you realize that gen.Obasanjo lost his vote in the SW,because his kinsmen doubted if he would be able to practice favouritsm when he eventually got elected. They drew their conclusion base on the fact that he was against the Yorubas' quest of revalidate the election won by Chief MKO Abiola in 1993. In my view,Obasanjo could have been pulled down by his kinsmen on the fact that he was not transparent during his military regime,not because they doubt is capability to deliver favours towards them.
You must the cracking an expensive joke when you tell the masses you claimed to be representing that lack of accountabilty and transparency was caused by godfatherism. Who are the godfather's of James Ibori? Was he able to give account of the funds he mismanaged,siphoned and embezzled?
I firmly argue that the problem lies with our moral values,that consequently lead to other following symptom called godfatherism.

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Re: Nairaland's Literary & Debating Day - FINALS by Odunnu: 9:19pm On Jul 22, 2012
Take it easy Babe! Your words are getting too strong and personal.
This is just a mere online debate meant for fun
Re: Nairaland's Literary & Debating Day - FINALS by Cuddlemii: 9:22pm On Jul 22, 2012
This debate would end at 9:40pm.
Thank you!
Re: Nairaland's Literary & Debating Day - FINALS by BABE3: 9:22pm On Jul 22, 2012
Odunnu: Take it easy Babe! Your words are getting too strong and personal.
This is just a mere online debate meant for fun

. . .then ignore my posts or report me for a ban.
Re: Nairaland's Literary & Debating Day - FINALS by coogar: 9:26pm On Jul 22, 2012
breezy047:
Godfatherism is synonymous with a vehicle. . .because it is not far from the truth that Godfatherism is not an end but a means to an end (corruption)

Kindly tell us who the driver of this vehicle is....


The Noble Laurette Wole Soyinka was exact and seemed to agree with this when he pointed that Obasanjo was a huge mastermind of Godfatherism as a ploy to keep his party in power forever.
Now you can agree with me that Obasanjo allowed Godfatherism. . .and also that Godfatherism causes corruption. Not so?
In essence this leads us to say Obasanjo exibited some form of corruption during his LEADERSHIP(Chech out on his electricity fund misappropriatio).

Obasanjo did not allow Godfatherism, Obasanjo is a Godfather himself and he was put in power by Godfathers. This was a man who even lost his street in Ota and most South Western states refused to vote for. Yet, he was put in power by the so-called Godfathers and each and everyone of the Godfathers got rich under OBJ. Many of them were untouchable. Even the comical Oputa Panel was a smokescreen. Nobody was convicted, no one was punished of any wrong doing because majority of the alleged criminals are.....(fill in the gap)


Now if Obasanjo's and some inappropriate policies sponsored this present trend of Godfatherism, then dont you see that inappropriate political structures, policing and even leadership crisis are even STRONGER causes of corruption in the nation.

The nation is hungry. People need to be empowered to say no to corruption. Failing that, you are pissing in the wind.
Nigerian Police is the most ill-funded organization in the world - what do you expect from a man with 4 wives and a dozen children feeding on N20,000 per month?



I put it to you today that WHAT MOST PEOPLE WANT is a change in inappropraite leadership. . .
because a corrupt leadership has many vices to achieve its ends and the foundation is STRONGER than the periphery.
Godfatherism is not the foundation so you can AGREE with me that people would rather prefer a total overhaul and change inappropraite leadership and political party system and structures, and in useless policies(such as those that hinder the law from questioning the source of huge funds for political party campaigns), to mere removal of bits of vices like Godfatherism, nepotism, favoritism and the like.
And so again I say and you can AGREE with me that you need to look beyond Godfatherism as the major cause of corruption in the nation.

"The world better beware, they pose a bigger threat because Nigeria has the world's largest population of English-speaking, literate, intelligent but desperate and twisted people who have had a formal tertiary education".....anonymous 2005!

What people want is empowerment like the developed countries where every citizen above 16 has a shelter, a job and can afford the basic needs of life. A country that cannot provide that for majority of her citizens tread dangerously to a bottomless pit.
Re: Nairaland's Literary & Debating Day - FINALS by Nobody: 9:33pm On Jul 22, 2012
Fashola against Tinubu
The former Governor of Lagos state,Asiwaju Bola Tinubu who is a godfather to the incumbent Governor Babatunde Raji Fashola. Why did Fashola refused to dance to Tinubu's tune? Why did he got elected again for the second term in office,after the report of numerous disagreement between him and his political godfather and despite the fact that he got to the seat of power with the support of his godfather? Reasons are not far-fetched. When an individual possesses admirable pedigree, high moral standard,leadership skill,good deal of discipline and prioritizing the interest of his people above personal gain;he will be able to run the affairs of the public office without being influenced by the strong forces of his godfather. Even if the incumbent governor has agreed to the conspiracy of looting and embezzling before he won the election, his high standard of moral and discipline has made him to disagree to Tinubu's political manipulation. Truly, wolves lose their teeth but not their nature. Now tell me,if Fashola has selfishly embraced corruption emanating from the ungodly act of greed, moral decadence and selfcentredness. will you blame it on godfatherism or individualism?

Fashola danced to the tune of Tinunu's music, hence why most of the so-called PPP are owned by Tinubu. The Lekki toll gate fiasco also shows that Lagos is a one-man show, with Tinubu as the decision maker - and Fashola as the face. Bear in mind that the GDP of Lagos is more than the GDP of most sub-saharan African countries, yet there isn't much to show it - except a few face lifts to old and dilapidated structures.

These funds got missing during the administration of Gen.Obasanjo Rtd. without giving transparent account of how the funds were mismanaged. was Gen.Obasanjo Rtd. been elected in the 1999 election with the support of godfather? Can you tell me Gen.Obansanjo's administration was transparent?

The 1999 election which got OBJ into power was the worst election ever conducted in the history of Nigeria (at the time), according to UN observers. OBJ was NEVER elected, he was selected by his godfathers to serve and protect their interests in the Nigerian establishment.

If the collective wish of the masses supersedes the selfish resolve of some powerful individuals(godfathers) who believe they can dictate the affairs of millions of people from the confines of their bedrooms and the masses you speak for, abolish the corrupt practice of worshipping people in high places because of their wealth,do you think godfatherism will be the threat to our democracy? Hell no! We will only get things right in our society when we instigate high standard of moral value in the heart of our people;both young and old. When we frown at public display of wealth in occasion i.e spraying of money in public functions,parties and burial ceremonies;when you stop to collect bags and envelope from politicians before voting them.

In the Nigerian context, there's nothing the masses can do to turn the tide. We practice a flawed system of government that celebrates elitism and class. For Nigeria to rid itself off godfatherism/elitism, we need a complete overhaul of our present system of government - where all the decision making are made at the center. Personally, I think you're being myopic in your argument against the public display of wealth, because that has been part of our culture from time immemorial - yet we were able to build egalitarian societies, that flourished and built great empires.

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