Boudiccao:



It is now weapons. You are asking me for weapons when Igbo civilization and blacksmith predate every other civilization and artisans in Nigeria to the point that others had to employ the services of Igbo blacksmiths.

Damn!

Is that too much to ask?

Or wars are now waged with Udu drums and trumpets?

Please try and understand me.

My discourse is that in the 15th century when the Portuguese came around, the only kingdom worthy of such international trade was the Benins.

Denn:


On Nairaland, i have had countless encounters with people who are quick to talk but slow to reason.

If you read my post well, you would note that i said Bight of Benin encompasses present day Bight of Bonny. I didn't say it is the same.

If the Oba of Benin's conquests was petty and irrelevant, why do the Igbos have tales about it? Do the Benins have tales about Igbo conquests?

Benin did not stumble on weapons as if they were left on a bush path, they traded for bronze, made swords and later traded for muskets many years before any other kingdoms in the area. The Nri or Arochukwu kingdoms did not even exist as at this time.

Weapons proliferated only in the 17th/18th century. In the 15th centuries, very few people had serious weapons and it has been evidenced to be the Benins and not the Igbos. You can refute this by providing documentary evidence, if you have.

The Igbo Awka blacksmiths came to prominence in the 17th century. There are no records to back the myths that claim they started bronze smelting earlier than that. Present day Awka was a jungle notorious for elephant hunting during this period. How do you smelt metal in a jungle filled with elephants?

The Benin moat was an all rounder that secured the city. It didn't just face the east.

Finally, I am not from Benin. Where my ancestors came from does not matter to this discourse. Facts are simply facts. Insults are not signs of intelligence. Cant we all discuss history without getting petty and abusive?

As a side note, can you see how Reno calmed the other guy, teaching him on civility in conversations?

Chest beating does not change what happened in the past. Those who fail to learn from their history are bound to also repeat it.

Nope, bight of Benin never encompassed bight of Biafra, they were all independent bights.

Igbos have always been travellers.
We have Igbos who travelled far deep into Edo territories coming back with tales of civil wars in Edo land between Oba and the Edo rebels, as reason for their coming back.
Many of us amusely saw the story as fairy tales and hence , "Akuko Oba n'Idu" became a way of saying fairy tales in Igboland.

When I was small and my grandfather would send me on errand. He would tell me: hold the money well o! I don't want you to come back telling me the stories of Oba and Idu, ie Akuko Idu n'Oba".
It was a story of jest. We didn't understand how a single fat man should be ruling an entire people. Igbos who never left Igboland found it hard to believe that a group of people would accept to be ruled by a single man who dictates for them. Hence they saw the stories as fairy tales.

Traded fire!
All your bronze work were made from bronze you acquired from the Portuguese in exchange for slaves.
Bini had no Bronze or even iron ore sites.
In Igboland we have Lejja Iron site that is 5000years old.
Long before the first Bini man from Igodomigodo was civilized by the Yoruba torch bearers who came from Ife to civilized you lots and establish the Oba dynasty while overthrowing the Ogiemein, the descendants of Ogiso dynasty, Ndiigbo were already in Bronze age.

Reno is an empty Head.

Denn:


On Nairaland, i have had countless encounters with people who are quick to talk but slow to reason.

If you read my post well, you would note that i said Bight of Benin encompasses present day Bight of Bonny. I didn't say it is the same.

If the Oba of Benin's conquests was petty and irrelevant, why do the Igbos have tales about it? Do the Benins have tales about Igbo conquests?

Benin did not stumble on weapons as if they were left on a bush path, they traded for bronze, made swords and later traded for muskets many years before any other kingdoms in the area. The Nri or Arochukwu kingdoms did not even exist as at this time.

Weapons proliferated only in the 17th/18th century. In the 15th centuries, very few people had serious weapons and it has been evidenced to be the Benins and not the Igbos. You can refute this by providing documentary evidence, if you have.

The Igbo Awka blacksmiths came to prominence in the 17th century. There are no records to back the myths that claim they started bronze smelting earlier than that. Present day Awka was a jungle notorious for elephant hunting during this period. How do you smelt metal in a jungle filled with elephants? How did the Igbos get their ores at this time?

The Benin moat was an all rounder that secured the city. It didn't just face the east.

Finally, I am not from Benin. Where my ancestors came from does not matter to this discourse. Facts are simply facts. Insults are not signs of intelligence. Cant we all discuss history without getting petty and abusive?

As a side note, can you see how Reno calmed the other guy, teaching him on civility in conversations?

Chest beating does not change what happened in the past. Those who fail to learn from their history are bound to also repeat it.

I don't know why you are going on and on.
Igbos started Bronze smithing before any group in Nigeria and the facts are out there for you to verify while Yoruba and Benin started much later.
You hate to see it.
You Nigerians have been brainwashed to believe only those that had a kingdom had civilizations when it is on record that Igbos are the first Bronze smiters and oldest civilization in Nigeria.

Denn:


Is that too much to ask?

Or wars are now waged with Udu drums and trumpets?

Igbos made Bronze works centuries before others. You should read not ask.


Igbo civilization predate that 15th century nonesense you keep spewing and were already conducting long distance trades and in possession of Asian and North goods yet to be found in other parts of Southern Nigeria.

Of course, Europeans first met Bini that live close to the sea and will naturally trade with them.
Igbos live in the hinterland.

Walkee:
you are an idiot for calling me a liar who gives a shiiit what hellhole you crawled out from. Osadebe is a perfectly intelligible word here in Esan and Bini. Pronounce that name to anybody who can speak proper Esan or bini he will tell you it means God avert evil right there where you are standing. Uncouth savages tueeh

List Esan and Bini people with such name anytime in history.... I am waiting

And , yes , Osadebe is NOT a Benin or Esan name. Again , list Bini and Esan people with such name. I will split that your dense brain today.

You use Osanobua we use Olisebuluwa.

Dennis Chukude Osadebay (29 June 1911—26 December 1994) was a Nigerian politician, poet, journalist and former premier of the now defunct Mid-Western Region of Nigeria, which now comprises Edo and Delta State. He was one of the pioneering Nigerian poets who wrote in English.

Boudiccao:


Igbos made Bronze works centuries before others. You should read not ask.


Igbo civilization predate that 15th century nonesense you keep spewing and were already conducting long distance trades and in possession of Asian and North goods yet to be found in other parts of Southern Nigeria.

Of course, Europeans first met Bini that live close to the sea and will naturally trade with them.
Igbos live in the hinterland.

The existence of pre-historic people in present day Igbo land does make them Igbos.

Even the people in Leggie and Igbo-Ukwu cannot trace a direct tradecraft lineage to the pre historic peoples who once lived there.

If the whole of USA inhabitants died today and a group of people moved there after 500 years, will we say the new group had the same american technological progress?

My question is, and i believe a lot can learn from it is this....What weapons were in use by the Igbos who lived in present day Igbo land in the 15th century when the Benin were raiding villages for slaves with modern war gear? Please back the answer with verifiable evidence?

Now that you infer that the Igbos were civilised as at 15th century and traded with people in Asia at that period, can you please assist us with reliable sources to back such claims?

How did the asians ship the goods? Which goods? Which Asians? Which currency?

Please no insults.

Thanks

Denn:


Can you show evidence from proper research showing the weapons invented by the Igbos by the 15th century? Not myths and hand me down stories but pictures of swords, helmets, metal shields or the likes invented and used by the Igbos in 15th century?

Igboukwu bronze made by Igbo blacksmiths are the oldest and most sophisticated artworks found in Nigeria.

You people thought because we didnt allow one greedy overfes man rule over us we didnt make great inventions. You love monarchy and having one man call the short for you while we want everybody's opinion. We are Igbo !!

Walkee:
was parts present day Anambra, the Onitsha region not a colony of Benin?

By the way, British didn't defeat Benin, other Africans did. The people who destroyed Benin were from South Africa down to the Niger Deltas. Britain vs Old Benin one on one Britain would lose 99/100
When they came with their soldiers led by the clown Phillip they were butchered.
The brits did what they know how to do best, bribery, fake promises and lies. They promised other Africans bronze which was why the whole city was looted.

What is this?

Denn:


The existence of pre-historic people in present day Igbo land does make them Igbos.

Even the people in Leggie and Igbo-Ukwu cannot trace a direct tradecraft lineage to the pre historic peoples who once lived there.

If the whole of USA inhabitants died today and a group of people moved there after 500 years, will we say the new group had the same american technological progress?

My question is, and i believe a lot can learn from it is this....What weapons were in use by the Igbos who lived in present day Igbo land in the 15th century when the Benin were raiding villages for slaves with modern war gear? Please back the answer with verifiable evidence?

Now that you infer that the Igbos were civilised as at 15th century and traded with people in Asia at that period, can you please assist us with reliable sources to back such claims?

How did the asians ship the goods? Which goods? Which Asians? Which currency?

Please no insults.

Thanks

LMAO; the bronze made by the Igbo Ukwu artists bears Nri themes. Facial scarification like ichi and burial styles of Nri.

Next

Denn:


The existence of pre-historic people in present day Igbo land does make them Igbos.

Even the people in Leggie and Igbo-Ukwu cannot trace a direct tradecraft lineage to the pre historic peoples who once lived there.

If the whole of USA inhabitants died today and a group of people moved there after 500 years, will we say the new group had the same american technological progress?

My question is, and i believe a lot can learn from it is this....What weapons were in use by the Igbos who lived in present day Igbo land in the 15th century when the Benin were raiding villages for slaves with modern war gear? Please back the answer with verifiable evidence?

Now that you infer that the Igbos were civilised as at 15th century and traded with people in Asia at that period, can you please assist us with reliable sources to back such claims?

How did the asians ship the goods? Which goods? Which Asians? Which currency?

Please no insults.

Thanks

The artefacts had been buried for a thousand years, and their memory largely erased; so of course their discovery would come as a bit of surprise. But the interesting thing here is that when the anthropologist, Onwuejeogwu, showed pictures of these bronzes to illiterate elders at Agukwu, they were able to identify 90% of them and also told the anthropologists the uses of 85% of them. They wouldn't have been able to do that if the works were not of the same cultural paradigm as the historic Nri. If I took the same pictures to Ife and showed it to Ife elders, would they be able to tell me what 85% of them were used for in a ritual context?

Cc. Denn


Credit to Ajaana Oka.

IDENNAA:


Igboukwu bronze made by Igbo blacksmiths are the oldest and most sophisticated artworks found in Nigeria.

You people thought because we didnt allow one greedy overfes man rule over us we didnt make great inventions. You love monarchy and having one man call the short for you while we want everybody's opinion. We are Igbo !!

Igbo-Ukwu artefacts have their dating challenged as some of the artefacts have very history-recent items and even contain manillas and beads which every historian knows came with the Europeans in the 15th century.

for further reading; The Journal of African History , Volume 14 , Issue 1 , January 1973 , pp. 1 - 8

Denn:


The existence of pre-historic people in present day Igbo land does make them Igbos.

Even the people in Leggie and Igbo-Ukwu cannot trace a direct tradecraft lineage to the pre historic peoples who once lived there.

If the whole of USA inhabitants died today and a group of people moved there after 500 years, will we say the new group had the same american technological progress?

My question is, and i believe a lot can learn from it is this....What weapons were in use by the Igbos who lived in present day Igbo land in the 15th century when the Benin were raiding villages for slaves with modern war gear? Please back the answer with verifiable evidence?

Thanks

You are wrong. I can see you are desperately trying to convince yourself and other bigots like you that Igbos have no civilization and that Benin had the oldest civilizations in Nigeria. Dead on arrival.
You cannot mention the civilization of Nigeria without first mentioning Igbo civilization. It must be hard for you.


The Lejja, Opi and Igboukwu sites are all connected to the Igbos because the techniques used in the sites where still practiced by the Igbos.
The Igboukwu artifacts for example capture the cultural legacy of the Igbos that lived in that area, most of the artifacts are cultural symbols used for religious rituals and represented the culture of the Igbos.
On the faces of the bronze works are the Ichi scarification practiced by the Igbos found in that area.


The other goods found there and not found elsewhere proves that it exclusively belonged to the Igbos and created by Igbos.




Some of the other goods found there are foreign and a testament to the fact that Igbos were involved in long distance trading before You Nigerians became conscious.



Quit the obsession,it is making you look better. In your twisted head, it was Benin that had a civilization and never Igbos.

Igbos were smithing Bronze long before Bini and Yoruba that started in the 13th century and still have the audacity to ask for what Igbos were doing in the 15th century just because that was when the white people met Benin. LMAO.

I tried watching this conversation or discourse but it was hard to watch. Uche Chuta was really making me angry. Dude was all over the place, incoherent, restless and impatient. He made it possible for Reno to keep reiterating his opinion that Igbos are very sensitive.

Mister Reno, I’m sure you are reading this...Uche is not a true representation of an average Igbo man.

I’m not sure why he decided to do this but I’m disappointed. He didn’t know the history of slavery in Nigeria. If you are going to confront someone on a live video, at least know the basics of the topic you are going to discuss. He was stammering and not articulate.

Reno was being dishonest and mischievous as well. It was easy for him to generalise and mention Igbos as slave but sensitive about mentioning the name of the particular tribe or group of people that settled about his place. It would be disrespectful to mention them but not offensive to the generality of Igbo people.

The Benin empire raided Igbo towns according to Reno because those towns and clans were easy targets due to Igbos not having a kingdom or central authority.

I think he should have mentioned the areas which the Oba and his soldiers raided. Reno isn’t being a true historian if his documentary is affected by personal bias and sentiments.
Perhaps an expose on how the Oba crosses the Niger in his mighty boats/ships made by his excellent engineers, raided towns then went back to Benin would’ve been more convincing...but no he didn’t do that,

According to Reno, raiding of Igbos were possible because of no central government and the Osu caste system. He doesn’t know what he is talking about if he neglected the main source of the trade in Igbo land.

Reno has some mischief in him or he had been misled by his own arrogance. Story is as good as they person telling it.

Would the oba welcome a carving of so called Igbo enemies killing his men? Who verified the carvings and the authenticity of the story behind the wars?
The moat as well were built by Igbo slaves!! Meaning that Benin empire fought against and captured only Igbo slaves!.

Oba came from Benin, came down all the all the way to Alaigbo, raided towns, collected slaves, crossed the river and transported these people back to Benin!

Reno, if Oba raided some towns around him, or fought against the people, please educate us. I want to learn and I would like to have a face to face discussion with him. I have lots of questions to ask....

IDENNAA:



LMAO; the bronze made by the Igbo Ukwu artists bears Nri themes. Facial scarification like ichi and burial styles of Nri.

Next

Very good. If the bronze bears similarities to the culture of the new-to-area Nri Igbos, don't you think this implies that the bronze were recent too?

If you dig a site and see Iphone 12 located among the items, won't someone from our era be able to identify it? Can we say the same Iphone 12 was relevant to people who died 200 years ago or more related to people who lived in 2020?

Denn:


Igbo-Ukwu artefacts have their dating challenged as some of the artefacts have very history-recent items and even contain manillas and beads which every historian knows came with the Europeans in the 15th century.

for further reading; The Journal of African History , Volume 14 , Issue 1 , January 1973 , pp. 1 - 8

Igboukwu is dated 9th century AD and the beads are from Egypt and Venice.


Igbos have embarked on long distance trade.


Europeans brought Coral beads to Benin but the beads in Igboukwu are older, pre Portuguese and are linked to Egypt.


Igboukwu has no business with whatever you were doing with Europeans.
Igbos are your masters when it comes to civilization.

Boudiccao:



You are wrong. I can see you are desperately trying to convince yourself and other bigots like you that Igbos have no civilization and that Benin had the oldest civilizations in Nigeria. Dead on arrival.
You cannot mention the civilization of Nigeria without first mentioning Igbo civilization. It must be hard for you.


The Lejja, Opi and Igboukwu sites are all connected to the Igbos because the techniques used in the sites where still practiced by the Igbos.
The Igboukwu artifacts for example capture the cultural legacy of the Igbos that lived in that area, most of the artifacts are cultural symbols used for religious rituals and represented the culture of the Igbos.
On the faces of the bronze works are the Ichi scarification practiced by the Igbos found in that area.


The other goods found there and not found elsewhere proves that it exclusively belonged to the Igbos and created by Igbos.




Some of the other goods found there are foreign and a testament to the fact that Igbos were involved in long distance trading before You Nigerians became conscious.



Quit the obsession,it is making you look better. In your twisted head, it was Benin that had a civilization and never Igbos.

Igbos were smithing Bronze long before Bini and Yoruba that started in the 13th century and still have the audacity to ask for what Igbos were doing in the 15th century just because that was when the white people met Benin. LMAO.

Can you have a conversation without being rude or insulting? Can you push your ideas forward without disrespecting the other party? Why must you sound this way?

now back to the conversation, I have tried to answer your observations in my recent responses to Idennaa

Denn:


Igbo-Ukwu artefacts have their dating challenged as some of the artefacts have very history-recent items and even contain manillas and beads which every historian knows came with the Europeans in the 15th century.

for further reading; The Journal of African History , Volume 14 , Issue 1 , January 1973 , pp. 1 - 8

The carbon-dating of the artifacts shows they were hundreds of years older than Ife and Bini works. At a point in history some Igbo group smelted iron but the trade was abandoned when the trade became unprofitable. The themes of the metal works bears Nri-Awka traditions.

Denn:


Very good. If the bronze bears similarities to the culture of the new-to-area Nri Igbos, don't you think this implies that the bronze were recent too?

If you dig a site and see Iphone 12 located among the items, won't someone from our era be able to identify it? Can we say the same Iphone 12 was relevant to people who died 200 years ago or more related to people who lived in 2020?

You are beginning to confuse yourself because of your desperation.

Nri is an ancient group and the Bronze works they made are equally older than whatever is found in Benin.
You are saying if the Bronze works belong to the modern Nri, yes! Because it has been proven to be theirs.

Just like the latter Bini works belong to modern Bini people.

Boudiccao:



Igboukwu is dated 9th century AD and the beads are from Egypt and Venice.


Igbos have embarked on long distance trade.


Europeans brought Coral beads to Benin but the beads in Igboukwu are older, pre Portuguese and are linked to Egypt.


Igboukwu has no business with whatever you were doing with Europeans.
Igbos are your masters when it comes to civilization.

The beads uses by the Igbo and Igala are distinct stone- based found in the bed of Omanbala River. Previously, we didnt use coral beads. Igbo is very ancient.

Boudiccao:



Igboukwu is dated 9th century AD and the beads are from Egypt and Venice.


Igbos have embarked on long distance trade.


Europeans brought Coral beads to Benin but the beads in Igboukwu are older, pre Portuguese and are linked to Egypt.


Igboukwu has no business with whatever you were doing with Europeans.
Igbos are your masters when it comes to civilization.

Please read "Dating Problems at Igbo Ukwu" which was published by Cambridge University Press in 2009. The 9th century source was published in 1959 By Shaw

and don't forget the manilla.

How did manilla get there before the europeans?

Denn:


Can you have a conversation without being rude or insulting? Can you push your ideas forward without disrespecting the other party? Why must you sound this way?

now back to the conversation, I have tried to answer your observations in my recent responses to Idennaa

Because you questions are illogical and come from a place of bile and desperate to prove Igbos had no civilizations and only Benin did.
You Benin dey learn work.

BiafIntel:

What is this?

did you actually think that Brits who were not up to 200 magically manufactured soldiers numbering over 3,000 to complete the conquest?
It was done by Africans from the south African protectorate down to the Niger deltas. Britain have never won a real war on their own

Boudiccao:



Because you questions are illogical and come from a place of bile and desperate to prove Igbos had no civilizations and only Benin did.
You Benin dey learn work.

You obviously did not read where i said am not Benin. I am not from a place of bile. Actually, there is a Domino's joint with Coldstone not far from where i am typing this and believe me, Coldstone Ice-cream does not taste like bile.

Why must where we come from matter when facts are being discussed?

As at this moment, my questions remain unanswered.

Which Asian kingdoms were the Igbos trading with in ancient periods? What weapons were the Igbos using in the 15th century?

Denn:


Please read "Dating Problems at Igbo Ukwu" which was published by Cambridge University Press in 2009. The 9th century source was published in 1959 By Shaw

That's what I am telling him.
The beads found in Igboukwu have only been found in Igboukwu and predate the coral beads Europeans brought to Benin.

Boudiccao:



You are beginning to confuse yourself because of your desperation.

Nri is an ancient group and the Bronze works they made are equally older than whatever is found in Benin.
You are saying if the Bronze works belong to the modern Nri, yes! Because it has been proven to be theirs.

Just like the latter Bini works belong to modern Bini people.

They thought only them had civilization because of the way Bini has been overhyped. The absence of a centralized kingdom doesn't mean the people aren't creative. We simply don't like power to belong to only one man....na God ?

When Okoli Ijeoma of Ndikelionwu was raiding Nri-Awka area , after Eze Nri warning fell on deaf ears , a group of army was assembled and called Amakom. These men unleashed bloodbath on the Aro slave raiders and they never ventured that way.....lol

Boudiccao:



That's what I am telling him.
The beads found in Igboukwu have only been found in Igboukwu and predate the coral beads Europeans brought to Benin.

Lets start from a position of facts.

You claim the Ukwu artefacts were dated to the 9th century

Manillas were found among the artefacts.

The Europeans brought Manilla in the 15th Century

How did European manillas of the 15th century get teleported back to the 9th century?

facts

Denn:


You obviously have did not read where i said am not Benin. I am not from a place of bile. Actually, there is a Domino's joint with Coldstone not far from where i am typing this and believe me, Coldstone Ice-cream does not taste like bile.

Why must where we come from matter when facts are being discussed?

As at this moment, my questions remain unanswered.

Which Asian kingdoms were the Igbos trading with in ancient periods? What weapons were the Igbos using in the 15th century?

You really want to assume Igbos the great Blacksmiths of Nigerians don't 't make weapons in order to hold on to your preconceived notions that Benin invaded Igbo people then go ahead.
Tie-in igbo civilization back to the 15th century because Europeans met Benin in that period is preposterous and shows exactly what side you on.

I really don't care about where you come from but right from your first post where you exalted Benin and berated Igbos is a proof that you are bigot.
The way you are nitpicking everything I have debunked in a bid to show Igbos have no civilization is ridiculous.

For you, Benin has the oldest civilization and Igbos don't , when ironically the archeogical and historical world have all acknowledged that Igbos have the oldest civilizations in West Africa and Nigeria.



The beads come from Egypt, whichever they came to Igbos is what scholars need to answer. The general Consensus is that Igbos had a long trading network.

Denn:


Lets start from a position of facts.

You claim the Ukwu artefacts were dated to the 9th century

Manillas were found among the artefacts.

The Europeans brought Manilla in the 15th Century

How did European manillas of the 15th century get teleported back to the 9th century?

facts

How did tiny Bini become an "empire ? " What made you an empire.

Archeologists did the carbon testing not my Igbo village. Some of the metal works may have been made in 15th century which is actually 1400s

Denn:


Lets start from a position of facts.

You claim the Ukwu artefacts were dated to the 9th century

Manillas were found among the artefacts.

The Europeans brought Manilla in the 15th Century

How did European manillas of the 15th century get teleported back to the 9th century?

facts

Scholars insist the origin of Manillas in West Africa must first be studied and clarified before going back to the manilla found in Igboukwu.

IDENNAA:



They thought only them had civilization because of the way Bini has been overhyped. The absence of a centralized kingdom doesn't mean the people aren't creative. We simply don't like power to belong to only one man....na God ?

When Okoli Ijeoma of Ndikelionwu was raiding Nri-Awka area , after Eze Nri warning fell on deaf ears , a group of army was assembled and called Amakom. These men unleashed bloodbath on the Aro slave raiders and they never ventured that way.....lol

Britian and Europeans are generally obsessed with kingdoms and kingship that is why they couldn't understand the Igbos and had to fight them for the longest while other tribes with the so called kingship capitulated in 6 months.

IDENNAA:


How did tiny Bini become an "empire ? " What made you an empire.

Archeologists did the carbon testing not my Igbo village. Some of the metal works may have been made in 15th century which is actually 1400s

The oldest works was made in 9th century AD and if there were others made after then, it doesn't erase the fact that Igbos had that civilizations on lock down before others dreamt of doing same.

IDENNAA:


How did tiny Bini become an "empire ? " What made you an empire.

Archeologists did the carbon testing not my Igbo village. Some of the metal works may have been made in 15th century which is actually 1400s

Benin became an empire when Oba Ewuare became king, amassed an army and started taking over territories around 1440. He was the first of the 5 warrior kings. His son, Oba Ozolua was believed to have won 200 battles. It was Oba Orhogbua that stretched his empire beyond the River Niger in the east and Ghana to the west. Trade with the Portuguese expanded their wealth and might and funded the expeditions. (SOURCE: BBC website)

The manilla bronzes were brought in by the Portuguese merchants and would have found their way to Igbo land possibly via commerce long after Benin started accepting manilla, not before.