What Is Deliverance? - Religion (2) - Nairaland
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| Re: What Is Deliverance? by nlMediator: 6:47pm On Mar 05, 2013 |
^^^ Again, you're beginning to act like a master prevaricator! At no point did the brother say that ALL sickness is caused by demons. Yet, in your response, you read that into his post. All the while not making clear whether you believe SOME sickness is caused by demons! Such a method of discussion certainly does not advance knowledge. On my own part, I asked a number of questions (restated below) but have received no direct answer from any of you, even in the midst of a multitude of posts. How can people learn, if issues are not directly addressed? 1. A christian has been delivered from sickness. Can a christian fall sick? 2. Can a christian be oppressed in the sense of an evil spirit dwelling in his body or soul (not spirit)? 3. Does the gift of discerning of spirits operate in the church (among christians) or is it given only for addressing needs of non-christians? Very simple answers would suffice! |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by Goshen360(m): 6:51pm On Mar 05, 2013 |
nlMediator: Brother, my language is very clear. It is okay to do deliverance for whoever if such person have not truly come to Christ and accepted the gift of salvation and such becomes a NEW creation. In the new creature, the life of Christ is transfered to the believer and the light begins to shine in and through him. Somebody can be going to church for years without accepting the gift of salvation. The story of this man is very clear - he was oppressed because perhaps he lack knowledge of God's word. He WASN'T POSSESSED. He was harassed from the OUTSIDE, not from INSIDE. If he is truly a Christian, I can't judge him in that faith, he is harassed, NOT possessed. You know the various levels of demons operating right - possessing (Mark 5:15) and oppressing (Acts 10:38). Before a person becomes Christian, if deliverance is conducted for such, no problem but not in all case; no problem. When such is delivered and such person comes to Christ and accepted the gift of salvation with the seal of Holy Spirit, the devil and demons cannot POSSESS such person anymore because the Holy Spirit have taken over. Now, it is possible such is harassed and attempted by demons, BUT please, such is NOT being delivered again because he was already delivered. From scriptures, what that person need to do is RESIST the devil and he will flee. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by Goshen360(m): 7:22pm On Mar 05, 2013 |
nlMediator: This question carries two sides. 1. A christian has been delivered from sickness....That is, If the 'sickness' is in question is demon inflicted in the first place or caused by demons. Not all sickness needs deliverance in order to go or be cured. We need to understand those Jesus healed or cured their sickness were not Christians yet. Hence, it is okay to heal the sick, cast OUT demons out of those who are not Christians. New American Standard Bible (©1995) And there was a woman who for eighteen years had had a sickness caused by a spirit; and she was bent double, and could not straighten up at all. - Luke 13:11 2. Can a christian fall sick? ....simple answer, YES! But will all sickness need deliverance?....simple answer, NO! Is all sickness caused by devil or demons? .....the simple answer is NO! nlMediator: Looking from scriptures, I DO NOT think a 'Christian' can be OPPRESSED in a sense of evil spirit DWELLING IN THE BODY OR SOUL. If your question was, if a Christian can be HARASSED or OPPRESSED from the OUTSIDE\EXTERNAL, that would have YES, because a Christian can be harassed or oppressed from the OUTSIDE by demons\devils BUT not DWELLING IN HIS BODY OR SOUL.....because scripture says, the BODY is the temple of the Holy Spirit and when we become Christians, we're given the MIND of Christ (Philippians 2:5, KJV) which requires constant renewal in the word of God. nlMediator: Gift of discerning is for within the church and outside the church. But remember, not all who attend worship places are Christians. An unbeliever can come worship among Christians also. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by ichuka(m): 7:58pm On Mar 05, 2013 |
quote author=Goshen360] God! Is it you saying this? Are you implying ALL sickness is caused by demons or devils IN A CHRISTIAN? So if I have headache, it is demon or devil making me have headache? If a Christian have typhoid, is that caused by the devil or demons? As matter of fact, what is the difference between falling sick and being possessed by demons? And what is the Christian being delivered FROM? waiting from an answer please[/quote] Lol So if someone(a Christain)have headache or fever that's not attributed to the devil or demons,then where is it(headache/fever)from? Is it from God? Is God the originator of some kind of sickness in the lifes of His children? If you say its not from God or the devil then where is it(sickness)from? TThoughthese not what my last post was even talking about.but let's start from here. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by ichuka(m): 7:58pm On Mar 05, 2013 |
quote author=Goshen360] God! Is it you saying this? Are you implying ALL sickness is caused by demons or devils IN A CHRISTIAN? So if I have headache, it is demon or devil making me have headache? If a Christian have typhoid, is that caused by the devil or demons? As matter of fact, what is the difference between falling sick and being possessed by demons? And what is the Christian being delivered FROM? waiting from an answer please[/quote] Lol So if someone(a Christain)have headache or fever that's not attributed to the devil or demons,then where is it(headache/fever)from? Is it from God? Is God the originator of some kind of sickness in the lifes of His children? If you say its not from God or the devil then where is it(sickness)from? Though, these not what my last post was even talking about.but let's start from here. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by Goshen360(m): 8:56pm On Mar 05, 2013 |
i.chuka: Brother, no let people catch you with these things you dey talk o, say na demon\devils dey cause headaches  Okay, headache depending on the type is caused by the following, 1. The effects of alcohol on blood vessels 2. Severe cold 3. Stress 4. Improper ways of been woken up from sleep etc etc Causes of typhoid (fever) among many includes infection with the bacteria from contaminated food and water. Abi you also want us to talk about broken legs or arms etc etc. Abi you want to tell us if I'm having headache, na demon dey do me  There're demonic manifestation with examples of 'similar' cases from scriptures and when you see such, you'll know it. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by nlMediator: 9:02pm On Mar 05, 2013 |
Goshen360: I appreciate your answers, though #3 is incomplete. 1. Sickness can be caused by natural causes or by evil spirits. The Bible makes clear that part of our redemption package is deliverance from sickness. Yet, christians fall sick all the time. First, are you suggesting that all sicknesses and diseases suffered can only be attributed to natural causes and never caused by evil spirits? Do you have Scripture for the assertion? Second, assuming all of these sicknesses suffered by christians are due to natural causes, it still leaves the question as to how a christian can fall sick when he has already been delivered FOR ALL TIME through the finished work of Christ. If what one has been delivered from (sickness) can still show up, how is it not be possible that another thing a christian has been delivered from (demon powers) can still show up? If you're insisting that Jesus has delivered us and we cannot have what He has delivered us from, then you have to apply that to sickness and also argue that a christian cannot fall sick. But you know you cannot. 2. The Bible says our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. But we know that the Holy Spirit does not live in our physical body. He lives in our spirit. Our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit only in the sense that our body houses our spirit which then houses the Holy Spirit. Again, using sickness as an example, how can sickness co-exist with the Holy Spirit if both of them exist in the BODY of the christian? That's not possible. 3. You have not answered the second part of the discerning of spirits gift, which is whether it can be used for the benefit of christians. You suggested that it can be used in the church, but only on those congregants in the church who are not really christians. Do you have scriptural support for this? Does this position of yours apply to any of the remaining gifts of the spirit or did God single out discerning of spirits for non-application to true christians? |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by nlMediator: 9:15pm On Mar 05, 2013 |
reveal: Our Lord Jesus, told a story of what happens to a man whom evil spirit has been driven out in Mat 12:43, how the unclean spirit comes back to see the place vacant and gets 7 spirits more evil than him to occupy that man.This happened because the man the evil spirit met him empty. Several things make one uncomfortable with your post. First, you're convinced you know who qualifies as a christian. So, the moment the person is OPPRESSED by the devil, you conclude he was never a christian. Where does the Bible teach that we know we have passed from death to life if we're never subject to the devil's attack? Second, you talk of the house being empty. Sure, that's in reference to the spirit. A christian cannot be possessed because his spirit has the Holy Ghost resident there and is not empty. But you are making a giant leap from that conclusion to the next, which is that his body is not subject to attack. Third, deliverance and its abuse is not a Nigerian thing. It exists in other parts of the world. In fact, Hagin wrote AGAINST endless deliverance sessions decades ago in the US. But he still accepted that christians can be set free from demonic attacks. In addition to preaching renewal of the mind with the word, probably more than anybody in the past 100 years. Finally, Paul approached the Corinthians the way he did, probably because he had already cast demons out of them before salvation. With the works of the flesh and other effects of demonic activity, they needed God's word. Look closely at Paul's ministry and you see that casting out demons was so prevalent that even the sons of Sceva tried to mimic him. When was the last time that an unbeliever tired to mimic you or any pastor about casting demons? That's because it's not what we do that often these days. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by Nobody: 12:40am On Mar 06, 2013 |
@nlMediator, thank you for indept and incisive ANALYSIS of this topic. It shows you as a brother who rightly divides the WORD OF TRUTH.Some of our brothers who claim they have "abundance of revelations" have NOT told us their practical and personal experiences in the FIELD out there. Like i said Christianity is not only revelational but also EXPERIENTIAL. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by ichuka(m): 9:32am On Mar 06, 2013 |
Goshen360:Lol,again. Seems you don't want to answer my former question directly. Let me put it thes way, When God created man was it His intension that man will someday fall sick? Where does sickness originated from,is it from God or the devil? Are we(christains) surppose to fall sick? |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by ichuka(m): 10:32am On Mar 06, 2013 |
Inmy first post,Paul said that the whole creation is SICK and they groan in there Sickness waiting eagerly to be cured/delivered by We(the Sons of God)...Romns8:19-22.but We(christains)here on earth are also SICK and need to be FULLY CURED of our own Sickness..romns8:23. To Cure or Deliver the whole creation We ourself have to be Fully Cured/Delivered fisrt. Because creation itself hope lays in us(the manifestation of the Sons of God)..Romn8:19. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by christemmbassey(m): 2:24pm On Mar 06, 2013 |
i.chuka:do you know y Christ came to earth and the results of his work? |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by ichuka(m): 3:46pm On Mar 06, 2013 |
christemmbassey: do you know y Christ came to earth and the results of his work?Dude Is your body fully redeemed? If you say yes then,you are saying that Paul is a big liar. Are Christains surppose to fall Sick? why is it that the whole creation is groaning even untill now because of curruption? even paul and those christains in rome groaneth to be fully redeemed,dude why are they groaning? |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by nlMediator: 5:46pm On Mar 06, 2013 |
Bidam: @nlMediator, thank you for indept and incisive ANALYSIS of this topic. It shows you as a brother who rightly divides the WORD OF TRUTH.Some of our brothers who claim they have "abundance of revelations" have NOT told us their practical and personal experiences in the FIELD out there. Like i said Christianity is not only revelational but also EXPERIENTIAL. Yes, my brother, I'm really waiting to hear of those experiences. I have a feeling that many people that aspire to be Bible teachers have very little experience in the field. They have beautiful ideas that have not been tested. When people suggest that a christian bound by demons should simply shake it off or resist the devil, they miss the crucial point that some of those christians have already gone past that stage. That is, they are too weak to fight on ther own. What they need is freedom from the bondage, at which point they can maintain their victory by resisting any further attacks. Of course, that's not to say that some forms of demonic intrusion cannot be resisted. But that's not a basis for confusing such situations with those in which the evil spirit needs to be cast out. I also sense that many people here are confusing our LEGAL position in Christ with our REAL ("vital"  position. The legal is the ideal that we can work toward so we can experience fully all that Jesus has for us. But we also know that not everybody is working or walking at the same pace. The devil may trip some people up and it's no consolation to tell them they were never saved or that they need no help and that it's all in their power to shake it off. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by christemmbassey(m): 10:00pm On Mar 06, 2013 |
i.chuka:pls if u want us to have a converstion answer my question, am going somewhere and i dont like diversions. God bless. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by ichuka(m): 4:18am On Mar 07, 2013 |
christemmbassey: pls if u want us to have a converstion answer my question, am going somewhere and i dont like diversions. God bless.Dude which question? |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by christemmbassey(m): 2:56pm On Mar 07, 2013 |
christemmbassey: do you know y Christ came to earth and the results of his work? |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by ichuka(m): 5:27pm On Mar 07, 2013 |
[quote author=christemmbassey][/quote] Lol Let's assume I really don't know.can you kindly educate me? |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by christemmbassey(m): 11:37am On Mar 08, 2013 |
i.chuka:yes, Christ came to return man to his original position b4 Adams fall. Pls read Rm 5:12-21, jn 3:16, 1jn5:10-13. Eternal life(ZOE) is the life of God(Gen 2:7) that man(ADAM) lost (Gen 2:16-17)when he disobeyed God(Gen 3 :6, 16-17) so Christ returned us to that prefall era when man ruled, could not be sick, possesed or oppressed by demons, did not pay tithes to be blessed, was not afraid or ashamed, that is why the bible says in Rm 5:17 "they which recieve the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall REIGN IN LIFE". A man who is reigning in life CAN NOT BE POSSES by demons because the Holy spirit (zoe) is living inside him. . God bless. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by ichuka(m): 12:01pm On Mar 08, 2013 |
christemmbassey: yes, Christ came to return man to his original position b4 Adams fall. Pls read Rm 5:12-21, jn 3:16, 1jn5:10-13. Eternal life(ZOE) is the life of God(Gen 2:7) that man(ADAM) lost (Gen 2:16-17)when he disobeyed God(Gen 3 :6, 16-17) so Christ returned us to that prefall era when man ruled, could not be sick, possesed or oppressed by demons, did not pay tithes to be blessed, was not afraid or ashamed, that is why the bible says in Rm 5:17 "the which recieve the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall REIGN IN LIFE". A man who is reigning in life CAN NOT BE POSSES by demons because the Holy spirit (zoe) is living inside him. . God bless.So in essence a Christain don't fall SICK abi? You guys should try and be realistic for once |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by wordthots: 11:43pm On Mar 08, 2013 |
nlMediator: My broda, sorry ds is coming alittle late been quite busy... I love your line of Thought I agree that my post seems alittle off balance cause for now I still go with Hagins position about this topic, but at this point I think I need more personal study on this... About christians falling sick; most definitely christians can fall sick. It all boils down to knowing what christ has done through his finished work. Like you rightly said theirs the Vital and legal position. Not all christians their position in Christ...the reason a christian would still get oppressed by the devil is ignorance...the devil thrives on ignorance |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by Goshen360(m): 12:50am On Mar 09, 2013 |
I'm still interested in this topic o. I haven't abandoned it o. I need to take my time to respond fully. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by Jluvu: 1:57am On Mar 09, 2013 |
Those who are ignorant of the word of God are direct candidates of deliverance. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by Jluvu: 1:58am On Mar 09, 2013 |
Those who are ignorant of the word of God are direct candidates for deliverance. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by Goshen360(m): 2:00am On Mar 09, 2013 |
^^^ Thank you. As a marrer of truth, deliverance means 'to believe in what's already done'. I will expand larer. God bless you! |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by christemmbassey(m): 9:30am On Mar 10, 2013 |
i.chuka:yes, that's the word 'REALITY', Jesus said "I am the way, the truth(reality) and the light....., again Jesus said "and ye shall know the TRUTH (reality) and the truth shall make xou free" jn 8:32(jkv). Now, what is the truth(reality)? For a christian, The truth is what God says and not what i feel, the bible (GOD'S word) says "my body is the temple of the holy ghost", that means, the holy ghost lives in me, i may not feel him, but he is there, and demons cant cohabitate with the holy ghost, that's the truth and another truth is, "as he thinketh, so is he", if u think, u are posses, u are posses, if u think u are sick, you are sick. The bible says "if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship, one with another..,....1jn1:7(kjv) ie, if we walk in the reality of the WORD of God, there is a mingling/koinonia/oneness of God's Spirit with our spirit, then we now have this understanding, we may not see him, but he's there, we may not feel him, but he's there, i cant be afraid, intimidated, sick, possesed, or oppressed, it doesnt matter what i feel, see, smell, hear or taste, because i know, "there is therefor now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT after FLESH but after the spirit"..... Rm8:1(kjv), "be not conform to this world(greek,aion) but be transformed(greek,metamorphoo) by the renewing of your MIND....Rm12:2, its a metamorphosis, be transformed, from that state of being oppressed, suppressed and possesed. James 1:25, says that the mam that will be blessed in his deeds is the man that hears and does not forget, So Face reality, and dont use a 'church goer' or "baby christian" experiences or 'flesh' to judge the truth about ur life as a christian. God bless you. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by ichuka(m): 3:35pm On Mar 10, 2013 |
christemmbassey: yes, that's the word 'REALITY', Jesus said "I am the way, the truth(reality) and the light....., again Jesus said "and ye shall know the TRUTH (reality) and the truth shall make xou free" jn 8:32(jkv). Now, what is the truth(reality)? For a christian, The truth is what God says and not what i feel, the bible (GOD'S word) says "my body is the temple of the holy ghost", that means, the holy ghost lives in me, i may not feel him, but he is there, and demons cant cohabitate with the holy ghost, that's the truth and another truth is, "as he thinketh, so is he", if u think, u are posses, u are posses, if u think u are sick, you are sick. The bible says "if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship, one with another..,....1jn1:7(kjv) ie, if we walk in the reality of the WORD of God, there is a mingling/koinonia/oneness of God's Spirit with our spirit, then we now have this understanding, we may not see him, but he's there, we may not feel him, but he's there, i cant be afraid, intimidated, sick, possesed, or oppressed, it doesnt matter what i feel, see, smell, hear or taste, because i know, "there is therefor now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT after FLESH but after the spirit"..... Rm8:1(kjv), "be not conform to this world(greek,aion) but be transformed(greek,metamorphoo) by the renewing of your MIND....Rm12:2, its a metamorphosis, be transformed, from that state of being oppressed, suppressed and possesed. James 1:25, says that the mam that will be blessed in his deeds is the man that hears and does not forget, So Face reality, and dont use a 'church goer' or "baby christian" experiences or 'flesh' to judge the truth about ur life as a christian. God bless you.So you are still saying that a Christain don't fall sick. While Paul says that the whole creation is Sick,even them(Paul and co.)are also Sick because they have not been fully redeem. Was the thorn in Pauls flesh,a messenger of Satan not a type of Sickness? And why is it that he prayed trice to be Delivered from.it,since your ascertion is that christains don't fall Sick.(2Cor17:7-  , |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by christemmbassey(m): 4:36pm On Mar 10, 2013 |
i.chuka:pls where did u get 2cor17:7, its not in my bible. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by Goshen360(m): 4:44pm On Mar 10, 2013 |
Christemmbassey, continue here o, I'm still attending to them on the thread o. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by ichuka(m): 5:21pm On Mar 10, 2013 |
christemmbassey: pls where did u get 2cor17:7, its not in my bible.Chapter12 not 17 New International Version (©1984) To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. New Living Translation (©2007) even though I have received such wonderful revelations from God. So to keep me from becoming proud, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me and keep me from becoming proud. English Standard Version (©2001) So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. New American Standard Bible (©1995) Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me-- to keep me from exalting myself! |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by nlMediator: 4:26am On Mar 11, 2013 |
wordthots: Good points, my brother. I agree with you that the key issue is ignorance. Right from the Old Testament, God has made clear that His people are led into captivity because of lack of knowledge (Is. 5:13). Yet, an ignorant christian is still a christian. So, if we're saying that an ignorant or baby christian can be oppressed, we are saying a christian can be oppressed. Again on Hagin, he believes that a christian can be oppressed. What is interesting is that many of the things that are written here to make the contrary argument are based more or less on his teachings about new creation realities and the authority of the believer. Goes to show that we need to understand the complete point he's making. I agree with you that we need to continue study on this issue. |
| Re: What Is Deliverance? by nlMediator: 4:30am On Mar 11, 2013 |
christemmbassey: yes, that's the word 'REALITY', Jesus said "I am the way, the truth(reality) and the light....., again Jesus said "and ye shall know the TRUTH (reality) and the truth shall make xou free" jn 8:32(jkv). Now, what is the truth(reality)? For a christian, The truth is what God says and not what i feel, the bible (GOD'S word) says "my body is the temple of the holy ghost", that means, the holy ghost lives in me, i may not feel him, but he is there, and demons cant cohabitate with the holy ghost, that's the truth and another truth is, "as he thinketh, so is he", if u think, u are posses, u are posses, if u think u are sick, you are sick. The bible says "if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship, one with another..,....1jn1:7(kjv) ie, if we walk in the reality of the WORD of God, there is a mingling/koinonia/oneness of God's Spirit with our spirit, then we now have this understanding, we may not see him, but he's there, we may not feel him, but he's there, i cant be afraid, intimidated, sick, possesed, or oppressed, it doesnt matter what i feel, see, smell, hear or taste, because i know, "there is therefor now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk NOT after FLESH but after the spirit"..... Rm8:1(kjv), "be not conform to this world(greek,aion) but be transformed(greek,metamorphoo) by the renewing of your MIND....Rm12:2, its a metamorphosis, be transformed, from that state of being oppressed, suppressed and possesed. James 1:25, says that the mam that will be blessed in his deeds is the man that hears and does not forget, So Face reality, and dont use a 'church goer' or "baby christian" experiences or 'flesh' to judge the truth about ur life as a christian. God bless you. I read some of your posts on this topic and wonder whether you are for real or you're just trying to "shock" us. The self-contradictions therein are mind-boggling. You need some time to digest the word of God more fully. It pains me that many people are in bondage and they are not getting the help they need, partly because we're masking our powerlessness with sweet-sounding statements that are not properly grounded in the Word of God. |
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