BabaGnoni:


I never defended Myles Munroe but highlighted the fact that I have never and wasn't at any time interested in Myles Munroe's "Motivation, Leadership and Self Help" teachings or enterprises
My main and only interest in Myles Munroe, was his eye-opening teachings and explanations of the Good News of the Kingdom of Heaven or Kingdom of God
- I see no one teach and explain it easily and well the way he did

There is no where on that thread I prevented attacks or stopped attacks on Myles Munroe

I made remarks to the effect that Myles Munroe never classed or called his "Motivation, Leadership and Self Help" teachings or enterprises, the gospel.

and also remarked, for good reasons, that, as for Myles Munroe's capers, that will be for God or "America" to know
- maybe next year, two years time, five years or ten years time, we can talk about them

Isn't your comrade in arms a piece of work? He neither knows exactly what Myles taught or what you said about it, but he's ready to pounce! Lord, that guy's arrogance flowing from ignorance is nauseating. Sad.

trustman:


No wonder!

Yeah

BabaGnoni:

What is going on here?
Have I missed some action?
Who has been thinking BabaGnoni was WinsomeX?
Not too long ago someone too was thinking BabaGnoni and vooks was same
Then it became shdemidemi is vooks
- suspicious minds? paranoia?

I doubt that anybody ever said or even insinuated such. The guy needs to put his imagination to better use.

nlMediator:
Isn't your comrade in arms a piece of work?
He neither knows exactly what Myles taught or what you said about it, but he's ready to pounce!

Lord, that guy's arrogance flowing from ignorance is nauseating. Sad.

Wow, "Land Wind X7" is a beauty. Yeah! It's a piece of work

Is there a pleasure thing going on in all this (i.e. the goading, so as to stimulate a response or trigger a reaction)

Remember the 2nd commandment:
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;

nlMediator:
I doubt that anybody ever said or even insinuated such.
The guy needs to put his imagination to better use.

Talking of putting imaginations to better use,
if I was none the wiser, I could be thinking nlMediator is Image123 because of all these post graffiting going on

^^^^^

What's next, you hear that Denzel is a baaad actor and you start looking for all the bad actors you can find and then try to convince us Denzel does not belong to their class? Man, you need to be more familiar with the vernacular.

I agree with you on one thing though: some of these banters are not very necessary and lead to more fights. I should go back to my default mode of ignoring some people and some things around here. And stepping in when it is absolutely necessary.

nlMediator:
^^^^^

What's next, you hear that Denzel is a baaad actor and you still looking for all the bad actors you can find and then try to convince us Denzel does not belong to their class? Man, you need to be more familiar with the vernacular.

I agree with you on one thing though: some of these banters are not very necessary and lead to more fights. I should go back to my default mode of ignoring some people and some things around here. And stepping in when it is absolutely necessary.

^^^
Who's been looking and who's trying the convincing

The olive branch (i.e. stepping in when it is absolutely necessary) is a welcome, mature, healthy and good idea

WinsomeX:
@Bidam

I actually asked five questions for which you provided no answers. I am not saying whether they preach repentance or faith or any such gospel theme, I asked what is the central theme of their messages? And I will supply you the answer.

Oyedepo central theme is FAITH. Now if this faith was the Christian saving faith, I would have no problem with it. But his "faith" is one for getting things - mundane things. A faith that has no grasp of an eternal hope but only of things of this world.

Oyakhilome central theme is also faith, with a subscription to Success principles and excellence in life and ministry, and of course, signs and wonders. A cursory look at his ministry will not reveal it's true rot. Recent events in his life has actually brought to fore our long known suspicion that a ministry that disdains the orthodox commitment to holiness will have the worst sort of immorality going on beneath. And thanks to Sir John we now know that his ministry's claim to healing is also a fraud. The recent revelation that the one Joagbaje claimed he healed of HIV, was never healed has further buttressed the falsehood in the whole church.

Then Munroe. Myles preaches on Purpose, Leadership, all generally under the self help theme, and despite BabaGnoni defence of him on my thread, I am yet to be convinced that self help is the gospel of Christ.

You mentioned Adeboye, whom I tried to avoid for the fact that more people are sentimentally attached to him than anyone else. But he might even be the worst of them all as he preaches a holiness gospel alongside a prosperity gospel. There is no such thing in the bible.

You refer to their messages as having "life improvement" as a theme but my question to you is that is this the emphasis of the scriptures? Let me try and tell you the emphasis of scriptures:

1. The story of redemption: Jesus Christ died for the sins of all men and rose for our justification. This is the good news, the gospel.

2. That this gospel might be proclaimed to all men and that repentance and faith might be required from them.

3. That men who profess faith in Christ might live the gospel and proclaim it in a honorable way.

4. That the gospel of faith, love and hope might be preached to the church of the living God that God's people might have hope in a precarious world.

5. That God's good providence may be proclaimed to the church and that God's people may put hope in God to meet their needs. And if this need is not met, that they may trust in God always inspite of.

It is the fifth theme that has blossomed and become the heretic gospel of prosperity.

Jesus and his apostles never preached a faith for getting things at the expense of that of eternity; they never advertised miracles; they didn't preach leadership or motivational messages; they preached the gospel. Paul told Timothy to preach the word. What word are these ministers preaching?

Another proof of the fact that these men are not doing ministry in the manner the Master or his apostles did it is in the sort of obscene wealth they display. Oyedepo, Oyakhilome, Adeoye or even the late Munroe are not the first preachers the world has ever known. There have been prominent Christian preachers since the apostles: from Augustine to Thomas Aquinas to Martin Luther to John Wesley to C H Spurgeon to F B Meyer to our own Ayo Babalola of the CAC; non of them were known for wealth, talk less obscene wealth. Our preachers today preach a false gospel of prosperity, sponsored by the faithful but naive tithing of the people, and the ministers are the ones smiling to the bank, saying God is good. This is falsehood. This is wrong. And they should be told.

Scriptures say many will be deceived and will deceive many. We are in those times my friend and rather than offering lame excuses for these men, I advice you develop some discernment.

Thanks for supplying your answers and calling my explanations lame excuses.Just out of curiosity, please show me the majority of your own preachers and ministers and men of God who have used the gospel like Paul to affect many lives? Has your so called "narrow is the way gospel" not ruined the lives of many church folks through 'isolation revelation' ?- It still damages many today, and I wish that some of you folks would highlight the heresies of those your holiness churches as well.

BabaGnoni:

^^^
Who's been looking and who's trying the convincing

The olive branch (i.e. stepping in when it is absolutely necessary) is a welcome, mature, healthy and good idea

Ok. Advice well taken.

I meant start (not still) looking. I've corrected it. It was in reference to your 'piece of work' comment in which you seemed to suggest the expression is used for beautiful things, like fine range rovers. Well, not in the context I used it. The vernacular side.

There is an obsession with outing monikers. For the record am no Naija man. Anyone who can figure me out gets $2,500

BabaGnoni:

What is going on here?
Have I missed some action?
Who has been thinking BabaGnoni was WinsomeX?
Not too long ago someone too was thinking BabaGnoni and vooks was same
Then it became shdemidemi is vooks
- suspicious minds? paranoia?

vooks:

There is an obsession with outing monikers. For the record am no Naija man. Anyone who can figure me out gets $2,500

In USD or ....

The best example is William Branham. Am sure you know how disappointed his adherents were when he failed to resurrect. Obsession with rapture is not a preserve for the WOF movement. Jehovah's witnesses have been at it long before the 60s.

Paul at not time expected Christ to return while he was still alive. Am sure you have in mind the resurrection verses in 1 Cor 15 and Thessalonians. His attitude was Christ CAN return during our lifetime not Christ WILL. When you say Chriat WILL,you are indirectly placing a time on his coming. If you are 50 years young, you are saying He will return in the next 60 years max. Here is one such man. A crowd pull for sure. https://www.nairaland.com/2002872/here-prophet-claiming-malachi-4s

There is a recurring theme of 'impact'. Who has had more impact between WOFers and non-WOFers? If impact means pulling most crowds, then WOFers win hands down. Does that vindicate their message? If it does, then Islam is a true faith. The 'impact' theme is basically some subtle blackmail, 'you are too few, you can't possibly criticize them because they are too big'. Watch it

nlMediator:


Do you have any evidence for the above error or is it further proof of your ignorance? WOF was thriving in the 1960s? WOF teachers thought they'll live till rapture (in any way different from what christians since Paul have thought)?

The reason some of you have little impact is that you don't want to make the right investment in educating yourselves about important things about life. Once your submissions are riddled with factual or theological errors, people have little time to pay you mind. When nobody visits your blog because of the ignorance you espouse, you and your supporters run to the Gospels to misuse the scripture about narrow way and few being chosen. That scripture is not about reaching a few but about a few responding AFTER you have reached them. But you critics are hardly reaching anyone.

US$ 2,500

I could have said Zimbabwe dollars but that would be insensitive

Goshen360:


In USD or ....

Bidam:
Thanks for supplying your answers and calling my explanations lame excuses.Just out of curiosity, please show me the majority of your own preachers and ministers and men of God who have used the gospel like Paul to affect many lives? Has your so called "narrow is the way gospel" not ruined the lives of many church folks through 'isolation revelation' ?- It still damages many today, and I wish that some of you folks would highlight the heresies of those your holiness churches as well.

I am not a holiness preacher. I despise that term: "holiness movement"; there is no such thing in the bible. I know nothing of "isolation revelation". And I apologize for calling your statements lame excuses, though it is not time to begin enumerating times you have referred to me as a "dog" while I wisely over looked the statement.

I consider myself a preacher of the gospel of Christ. Like Paul in Acts 20, I like to see the emphasis of my doctrine on the gospel of grace, which builds people up and gives them an inheritance. I also like to see myself as one that is orthodox: staying faithful to a true Christian tradition as Jude called us to do in his epistle and as Paul warned us to do in Galatians 1:6-9.

In all these I seek to propagate and preserve gospel truths. As for the ministers I look up to, you would have realized them if you read my posts well. I hope you and Gombs can fish them out as you fished out my critiques the other time.

Gombs:


Yeah

No wonder you guys arrive at the conclusions you get to.

You take a passage about Abraham's unwavering trust in God, make your own meaning out of it, stamp that meaning into your tithing position and then run along 'exciting' yourselves that you are doing right.

If you tithe because you want to assuage your conscience, or satisfy your church or present a scorecard before others then you may succeed in meeting those goals. But only a right motive will please God. Anything, including TITHING not done in line with God's way becomes wood, hay and chaff before Him.

Why won't you circumcise Abaham style using the SAME faith?
Faith is commendable but no amount of faith can transform an expired practice into a sound doctrine. Try slaughtering Jesus a lamb

Gombs:


[KJV] Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;:

Simple

trustman:


No wonder you guys arrive at the conclusions you get to.

You take a passage about Abraham's unwavering trust in God, make your own meaning out of it, stamp that meaning into your tithing position and then run along 'exciting' yourselves that you are doing right.

If you tithe because you want to assuage your conscience, or satisfy your church or present a scorecard before others then you may succeed in meeting those goals. But only a right motive will please God. Anything, including TITHING not done in line with God's way becomes wood, hay and chaff before Him.

Well, let God determine that. Until he comes, I wikl keep tithing, be very much assured I do these with the right motive and a pure heart, not grudgingly and debates.

vooks:
Why won't you circumcise Abaham style using the SAME faith?
Faith is commendable but no amount of faith can transform an expired practice into a sound doctrine. Try slaughtering Jesus a lamb

You know you've gone on with this circumcision thing, and I've tried to let you wallow in your knowledge but, a brief writ to get your mind alive. You call circumcision an expired practice? Ok, I thought it was a covenant between God and Abraham to be carried out in ALL generation.

Genesis 17 MSG from v9
God continued to Abraham, “And you: You will honor my covenant, you and your descendants, generation after generation. This is the covenant that you are to honor, the covenant that pulls in all your descendants: Circumcise every male. Circumcise by cutting off the foreskin of the p.enis; it will be the sign of the covenant between us . Every male baby will be circumcised when he is eight days old, generation after generation—

Please educate me, how did circumcision become an expired practice? Remeber we became the decendants of Abraham by faith in Chriist Jesus.

Put these in perspective. This was the covenant sealed with circumcision.

1. To make Abraham the father of many nations and of many descendants and give "the whole land of Canaan" to his descendants.[Gen 17:2-9].

2. Circumcision is to be the permanent sign of this everlasting covenant with Abraham and his male descendants and is known as the brit milah.[Gen 17:9-14]

3. Covenants in biblical times were often sealed by severing an animal, with the implication that the party who breaks the covenant will suffer a similar fate. In Hebrew, the verb meaning to seal a covenant translates literally as "to cut". It is presumed by scholars that the removal of the foreskin symbolically represents such a sealing of the covenant


Service has started! See you boys later! I know someone will quote Romans 2:29 and so on...

nlMediator:
Ok. Advice well taken.

I meant start (not still) looking. I've corrected it.
It was in reference to your 'piece of work' comment in which you seemed to suggest the expression is used for beautiful things, like fine range rovers. Well, not in the context I used it. The vernacular side.

^^^
Of course one knew the context it was used but was making light of it, by turning the context it was used on its head, and taking out, as it were, the venom (i.e. by saying "Land Wind X7" is a piece of work)

"Land Wind X7" actually is not a Range Rover as in not even a Range Rover model
"Land Wind X7" is not manufactured by Land Rover but it is a Chinese version of Range Rover Evoque (i.e. Range Rover Evoque imitation manufactured by the Chinese)
- the resemblance is striking, a 'piece of work'

circumcision is as relevant as animal sacrifices and if you have contrary opinion, please say so and explain that much in the fewest words

Hebrews 7:18 (KJV)
For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Gombs:


[size=3pt]You know you've gone on with this circumcision thing, and I've tried to let you wallow in your knowledge but, a brief writ to get your mind alive. [/size] You call circumcision an expired practice? [size=3pt]Ok, I thought it was a covenant between God and Abraham to be carried out in ALL generation.

Genesis 17 MSG from v9
God continued to Abraham, “And you: You will honor my covenant, you and your descendants, generation after generation. This is the covenant that you are to honor, the covenant that pulls in all your descendants: Circumcise every male. Circumcise by cutting off the foreskin of the p.enis; it will be the sign of the covenant between us . Every male baby will be circumcised when he is eight days old, generation after generation—

Please educate me, how did circumcision become an expired practice? Remeber we became the decendants of Abraham by faith in Chriist Jesus.

Put these in perspective. This was the covenant sealed with circumcision.

1. To make Abraham the father of many nations and of many descendants and give "the whole land of Canaan" to his descendants.[Gen 17:2-9].

2. Circumcision is to be the permanent sign of this everlasting covenant with Abraham and his male descendants and is known as the brit milah.[Gen 17:9-14]

3. Covenants in biblical times were often sealed by severing an animal, with the implication that the party who breaks the covenant will suffer a similar fate. In Hebrew, the verb meaning to seal a covenant translates literally as "to cut". It is presumed by scholars that the removal of the foreskin symbolically represents such a sealing of the covenant


Service has started! See you boys later! I know someone will quote Romans 2:29 and so on...[/size]

Faith, right motive, pure heart, not grudgingly don't make a Mosaic Law a Christian doctrine

Gombs:


Well, let God determine that. Until he comes, I wikl keep tithing, be very much assured I do these with the right motive and a pure heart, not grudgingly and debates.

vooks:
circumcision is as relevant as animal sacrifices and if you have contrary opinion, please say so and explain that much in the fewest words

Hebrews 7:18 (KJV)
For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. 19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Was circumcision before or after the law? Why the above verse?

Meanwhile, what about the covenant God sealed with circumcision? Did He annul it? Provide scriptures if you can.

vooks:
Faith, right motive, pure heart, not grudgingly don't make a Mosaic Law a Christian doctrine

Tithing has existed more than 400years before Mosaic law came about.

Gombs:


Was circumcision before or after the law? Why the above verse?

Meanwhile, what about the covenant God sealed with circumcision? Did He annul it? Provide scriptures if you can.

The covenant was sealed with the nation of Israel.

Abraham was made righteous by God before circumcision through faith. That is where you and I come in- through faith, complete trust in God. Paul said physical circumcision profiteth nothing for us, didn't he?

Let's play dating game; tithing was introduced into Christianity late into the 5th century, a good 400 years after Pentecost
Am really mad at Holy Spirit because he hid this revelation from the early church and left them to their own devices for fending off devourer

Gombs:


Tithing has existed more than 400years before Mosaic law came about.

John 7:22-24 (ESV)
22 Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. 23 If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man's whole body well? 24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

Acts 15:1 (ESV)
1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”


Here you go again confusing yourself with Mosaic vs pre-Mosaic
When the Jews demanded Gentiles be circumcised, was it after Abraham or Moses?

Gombs:


Was circumcision before or after the law? Why the above verse?

Meanwhile, what about the covenant God sealed with circumcision? Did He annul it? Provide scriptures if you can.

shdemidemi:


[s]The covenant was sealed with the nation of Israel.[/s]

Abraham was made righteous by God before circumcision through faith. That is where you and I come in- through faith, complete trust in God. Paul said physical circumcision profiteth nothing for us, didn't he?

Read and see how you confuse yourself

Gen 17 MSG
God continued to Abraham, “And you: You will honor my covenant, you and your descendants, generation after generation. This is the covenant that you are to honor, the covenant that pulls in all your descendants: Circumcise every male.

Circumcise by cutting off the foreskin of the pe.nis; it will be the sign of the covenant between us. Every male baby will be circumcised when he is eight days old, generation after generation—this includes house-born slaves and slaves bought from outsiders who are not blood kin.

Make sure you circumcise both your own children and anyone brought in from the outside. [size=16pt]That way my covenant will be cut into your body, a permanent mark of my permanent covenant. An uncircumcised male, one who has not had the foreskin of his penis cut off, will be cut off from his people—he has broken my covenant.”
[/size]

vooks:
Let's play dating game; tithing was introduced into Christianity late into the 5th century, a good 400 years after Pentecost
Am really mad at Holy Spirit because he hid this revelation from the early church and left them to their own devices for fending off devourer

Younare really funny! You quoted a verse trying to anul circumcision, a verse that does not have any jurisdiction over circumcision and tithing, for these two came before the law.

Knock yourself out

Gombs:


Read and see how you confuse yourself

If your problem is 'the ones brought him from outside'- they are his slaves and not christians.

My brother,
What was annulled in that verse?

Gombs:


Younare really funny! You quoted a verse trying to anul circumcision, a verse that does not have any jurisdiction over circumcision and tithing, for these two came before the law.

Knock yourself out

^^^ Gombs is in church!

shdemidemi:


If your problem is 'the ones brought him from outside'- they are his slaves Gentiles and not Abraham’s children (Christians).

Fixed

Now younare coming up. The confusion would soon cease.

vooks:

My brother,
What was annulled in that verse?

The law. Are tithing and circumcision having origin under the law?