talk2hb1:
Everybody presented their case very well, one thing is certain. No one has a Crystal Ball and nobody can predict precisely what the future hold for the Two languages. Who knows both of them could brace up for something on expected or both language could merge into some kind of synergical Language with one syntax compiled into one.

GozieDiora:


Bro, I'm Oracle Certified (renewed from SUN certification in 2011 and I still work with Java till today.) and Microsoft certified (renewed in 2013). I work as an enterprise programmer in a corporate organisation and I use both languages when need be. I learned Java way before I entered .Net and it was my sole language for long. Besides, I have seen more difficult language (like like Microsoft Assembler, MikroBasic PRO etc). With these, I think I'm better off comparing the languages than any one sided developer out there.

Tell me, what's the essence of difficulty if it has not direct positive impact on productivity? If language A is more difficult (and more time consuming) than language B and both languages can produce equally powerful systems, which is a better language? Will your clients ask you what language you're using when they complaining that the project is long overdue?

Yes, I'm a Nigerian and I programme as a source of income not to be a flag bearer for any software vendor. If I see someone talks ill of Java tomorrow or over-hype MS .Net and I think he's not being honest, I'd still be there to oppose. That's objectivity.

IntelliJ, despite its functionalities, is still not near Microsoft visual studio. Any honest Java programmer out there will tell you that. MS VS is simply an 'AI' of its own, ask around.

Happy Sunday.

asalimpo:

@bornSad
that's a very thought out response.
We will hav to watch and see what d future brings in the area of these two titans.
It's ironic, you predict java's demise wen java was d first major language to toe d path ,ms is now toeing. Wen Sun felt threatened by M$ dominance it open sourced part of java. Tht formed the basis for openjdk, it kept java alive .
Then android gave it a new lease of life by making it d primary developmnt language.
Earlier, netscape open sourced its browser source after it lost in the war with IE, and now mozilla firefox is a brain child of that original initiative.
MS is now seeing tht the most resilient viral systems are open source ones - with corporate backing in most cases - e.g
look @ d success of firefox,
linux,unix.

As for nigerian I.T managers, i maintain they are stereotypical and mediocres,period.
The policy in nigeria is simply to recourse to the tried and popular.
That's all.
Merit wise,php was one mess of a language, held together with a string, it caught on because it was easy to use.
It gained grounds here because it was very popular not because some I.T manager found some merit in it.
C#,ibm,google,oracle hav done a relentless job marketing to nigerian organisations.
Therefore,they come to mind wen technological decisions hav to b made.
Think for a minute,
would an i.t manager try to grow a small team trained in some off-languages(s) who will do projects in those languages for extended periods ,say 1 year, then the performance of their system created in those off-languges wud b compared to those in main-stream langs?
This is research and it will provide cogent, emperical feedback.
It will also provide valuable perspective.

Fact is, making such a proposition cud cost an i.t manager his respect worse his rating or job.

But it is through such experimentation tht newer technologies were born.

GozieDiora:


Cool, I think I appreciate the way you make your points objectively.

First, when he said SAP is programmed in .Net, hr didn't mean the system was built was built on it. Hello, that's not possible. He only meant that SAP allows programmers to customise (to fit client needs) it in two major languages, ABAP and .Net and that's true. Though not all SAP versions support .Net, most of them use C# dll extensively not just the reporting.

I like concurrency in Java too. But generally, I think C# has a better and neater language structure. Microsoft stole a lot of concepts from Java, I know. But they took their time to sieve out some rusty Java features and introduced better ones. There is no gain in complexity except if it can produce an obviously better stuff. Talking of tackling serious issues, C# allows programmers to concentrate on algorithm/problem solving than some complex syntax. And I think it enriches productivity.

Java gained its popularity from ubiquity. It is almost x-platform and was the choice for *nix programming so every other shortcoming was neglected. This is what we all wanted. Microsoft is coming a bit late but late but with their well evolved C#, they will give Java a tough time. There will be more migration and fresh programmers are likely to go for C#.

Happy Sunday.

Chimanet:
Please how many of the features in vs do u use use in developing a typical application? may be data source wizard, an initial project template, code completion, build system, and consuming webservices, and may be scalfolding entitities: creating restful webservices and mvc controllers from them. now tell me which of these tasks is not possible when you code in the java sphere, even open source java sphere? my friend you see? you guys should stop the .net hype in this country. these 2 platforms can achieve the same task. may be it takes a little stress becouse in the java environment you dont get a single vendor that has it all. The java open source ecosystem is even so matured that you can build an entire enterprise app without using any standard api from oracle. .Net is a one man thing, that is why you can get everything you need from a single vendor(MS). IntelliJ might still be far from visual studio (VS has a lot of wizards that we dont even use from project to project). but it gives a good java developer everything he needs to build entire application from groundup in a reasonable amount of time

Chimanet:
.
I will recommend a book for you on enterprise integration. Their is no major erp vendor that does not have a connector for the java community, be it an open source connector or even a proprietory one.talking of algorithms, python,wins.

BornSad:


Bro, you asked your question and you went ahead to answer it.

First, VS has every single thing you need incorporated in one environment and that alone is a strength. The Deployment project tools are there. The system integration project tools are right in there. Real life server programming tools are also there. It's a have-one-do-all kinda thing. Like you said, once you have it, you don't have to look elsewhere for anything not even DB or platform related stuffs. Everything is just in there.

Secondly, it very intuitive, very explicit and easy to use. Just click a button and your project is ready for deployment. Just a single button. Developing GUI with VS alignment tools will make you shout next time you use any other IDE. Its revers engineering tools are unbeatable. Software modelling is so easy here. You can easily diagrammatically model your objects with UML and enforce it on your project such that the system automatically reject any OOP implementations that do not conform to project design. A multi client project is easily managed here as a Solution project with sub projects. P2P coding is well taken care of. Real life distant support or co-programming is supported. The intelliscence makes coding a child's play. I can go on and on. The point, you might achieve these with a couple of other tools but is it with same ease?

I didn't say there are some things VS does that can never be achieved elsewhere but that what VS does in a click takes a lot of tools and steps, even wizards, to achieve elsewhere. IntelliJ might get there but it's just not there yet

I'm not hyping VS, it's not my father's property. I'm only being factual. And don't say "in Nigeria" cause VS is known worldwide as one of its kind, check online.

Good evening.

asalimpo:
@Gozie
ur echoing d op's sentimnts.
Being good in good in java and c# ,gives you a perspective on the two languages but ur biase is evident.
Go read comments on stack overflow on c# vs java and you'll see tht the camps are divided.
Like i said, intelliJ is famed by many. But you see others swearing by eclipse,netbeans or even emacs,vim,jedit.

If you know anything about open source,you know it will eventually rival closed source.
Mozilla firefox is now as good if not better than IE,is updated more often.
APache http is a good as anything u need
stackoverflow killed experts exchange
linux supersedes windows by light years
on d developer level,there's nothing you need for developing apps tht isnt provided by the three major ide's.

Anybody tht has used a tool extensively wud eventually build a large backlog of tools to automate most of his work,
i assume this is so-good devs will.

This negates the need for language comparisons, except in some extreme cases where a feature in a language is really paradigmic.
E.g, programming without generics ,while very possible, wud be too unweildy or messy to implement in a language without one.

GozieDiora:


First, my assignment was to get a general opinion on this matter and honestly tell me which side has it more. It will always be divided like here but I asked for which side has it more. And not to pick out a specific feature where Java probably has some strength left. Anyway, that's aside.

See, that IntelliJ will do this or that is a great possibility. Everything is possible. That C# will phase out is also possible. But we're talking about status quo. What is obtainable as of today. And I'm saying neither IntelliJ nor Netbeans nor Eclipse have gotten there yet.

Talking about the greatness of open source, have you forgotten what led to this our cool chat? That Microsoft is going open source too. So if you think open source has got it all and can crush competitions, then MS is about to incorporate that strength too into their already powerful status thus making it uncrushable. Do you now see why I say other vendors MUST step up their game if they want survive the blow. They need things to hold on to cause MS language will have it all.

You see MS knows just how to evolve a language and spoonfeed it to the public. See F# that came out the other day is already rubbing shoulders with major languages. They're just crafted in this and that's why competitors much watch for every major move they take.

It's just my stand, not a question of being biased. What do I stand to gain by promoting one language over the other? It's just a professional discussion and we're trying to enlighten one another. MS's decision is a turning point in the IT world so what other topic do you expect in a gathering of programmers?
Lol

Good evening jaareh

GodMode:


Years ago peeps were coding the bullsh*t u're talking about using command line or notepad and a blank paper for the design..

Comparing IDE's is just stupid its about the coders' choice/preference.

GodMode:


MS that can't compete with APPLE is what u're hyping like this.

Java is too much comparison and competitor for C# at this moment and for years to come.. All because of the ANDROID.

Its like comparing Barcelona to QPR...

BornSad:


And so what if they coding on stones before?

Guy, it is only about choice if the two IDE's in question are for the same language. Otherwise, it's not a matter of choice cause a VS user can't just decide to use Netbeans.

And who told you it's silly to compare IDEs anyway? No comparison is silly in science and technology. It only serves to enlighten peeps the more. Wait till you're given an assignment in school that say : Technically compare MS VS and Netbeans with not less than three points. You will tell the lecturer that it is silly, abi? You that will run back to this thread looking for expo.

Anyway, point is; it's a tech discussion forum and such comparison is healthy and professional.

For the record, we still use NotePad very well just that it's now with a double plus sign (NotePad++ )

BornSad:

Compete with APPLE in terms of what? Is Apple a programming language vendor or you're bringing OS into programming language discussion just to discredit MS when other means have failed?

All because of Android? So Java is great all because of Android? Hehe... guy... Nawa o.


Bro, see how others are making point and you're tying Java's fate to Android. So if Android looses market share to BB and windows, Java becomes doomed? You're trying to hype Java yet Java is bigger than what you're using to hype it.

Anyway, to give you the benefit audience, Android is also programmed in C#. It's even easier with it sef, lol. So does that mean Java is done for since, according to you, that's what gives an edge over C#?

Are you also aware that Apple OS apps can now be written in C# too?

Oga mi, where are you? In France?

nollyj:
Religious Argument.

nollyj:

Religious Argument.

Javanian:

I am with camp Visual Studio on this . If not for anything, it integrates seamlessly with C/C++ and it is the best IDE for Assembly language out there, and yeah it is way ahead of any Java IDE i have laid my hands on.

GodMode:


Java has contributed more things than C#. People that were part of the creation of java were years later hired to create c#.

Android programming is mostly done in c++ or java cos those are the languages that created android.

There are hundreds of millions of gadgets that are powered by android which makes it very difficult for java to become obsolete.

GodMode:


Comparing ide's/languages is silly.
.
School was many years ago.

asalimpo:


na , healthy debate. What's ur take on d ish?

sarutobi:
Everyone is making sense here but one thing still stands:

[size=14pt]A programmer with over 10 years experience in java will not jump ship just cause C# is now open source.[/size]

I hear a lot of how good c# is, but no thanks.

AZeD1:

You've said it all dude.
Nobody is going to port a stable program because C# is now open source. Microsoft came too late to the party.

Lots of enterprise applications are written in java and they will have to be maintained for a long time.

GozieDiora:


The future of Java is not dependent on the existing programmers. The question is not about who will port but what is the best choice for incoming programmers. They are the dictators not you and I.

Good morning.

AZeD1:

Dude i'm sorry but incoming programmers don't have a say. Lots of enterprises have there systems built in java and the incoming programmers would either have to learn Java or find a new place to work.

Nobody would port "battle tested code" because of incoming programmers.

BornSad:


How long do legacy systems last? Aren't you in the IT world? Don't you see how new systems are taking over every now and then?

Anyway, we were having a technical comparison here. Calling Java names and such things are for the lay community.

BornSad:


How long do legacy systems last? Aren't you in the IT world? Don't you see how new systems are taking over every now and then?

Anyway, we were having a technical comparison here. Calling Java names and such things are for the lay community.

AZeD1:

Are you seriously asking how long do legacy systems last?
The bank of new york still has a lot of its critical business systems in cobol.
Windows OS has to be backward compatible because of legacy systems.

There is a saying "code outlives the developer"

Here's something for you to read and understand http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html

http://www.computerworld.com/article/2502420/data-center/brain-drain-where-cobol-systems-go-from-here.html
The bank of new york has 112,500 Cobol programs -- 343 million lines of code -- that run core banking and other operations... What were you saying about legacy systems again?

BornSad:


Hehe... You quickly ran to fetch some stuffs online. I doubt if you actually read that stuff cause you shut yourself there; even the link you gave suggests that they considering changing the system. Lol

You just mentioned one example of system that has lasted for long. That is a huge software that would take years to re-write and will surely be re-written one day. Moreover, let's not forget that most legacy systems actually replaced some systems prior to them and that is how it goes. Even the one you mentioned might not have been the first system in the organisation, what happened to the one before it? Fact is, no matter how long a legacy system lasts, it will surely be over-written sometime, somewhere. Even the life cycle of software systems include the part where it gets outdated.

Note that the term, "legacy" in computing means "old or outdated or no longer satisfactory". So if a system still serves its purpose so well and no new challenge has rendered inefficient, then it is not yet legacy. That a system has lasted for long does not automatically make it legacy. For a system to be called "legacy", it must be in need of replacement. And once a system is termed legacy, its replacement is near. If a legacy system is in Java (or any language), it will eventually get replaced. And God bless Java if it remains the language of the new system.

Codes outlive developers but the only reason why you and I still have works to do today is because legacy systems get outdated and we get to program some new stuffs. I am an enterprise programmer, I do not need the Internet to tell me what is obtainable in my own market.

NEPA used FORTRAN based legacy system for years as if its whole existent relied on it. But today, PHCN is migrating Microsoft Axapta. That it has not happened does not mean it will not happen, bros mi.

We get jobs every now and then, you know why? Cause some legacy systems somewhere is getting replaced somehow.

That is what I was saying about legacy systems, they can't leave forever, sadly.

AZeD1:

Nothing lives forever, and not all systems need rewrite, the need addition. I'm currently working on a 10 year old code base, i'd love to rewrite but the business can't wait for a rewrite so i have to keep modifying(add new features)while planning a rewrite.
That's the reason why C# is not a threat to java for now... Lots of enterprise applications need modification/ addition written and they'll keep the java language up there for a long time.