patches689:


You wont see the same catastrophic failure that the T-72 suffered in the video due to superior ammo storage designs in Western MBT's

Those ATGM in the videos are up against old school RHA 1st generation obsolete T-72 tanks that the US army defeated in Iraq 1990, they are T-72 tanks of 1970s era with ordinary steel armour.

2nd generation T-72 tanks with properly built ERA protection will not be torn apart from turret to hull, the reactive armour stops penetration of first hit by the missile, depending on the calibre of ATGM though. Aggressor needs second missile shot on same spot as the first to penetrate the T-72 ERA armour, or you must do precision/lucky hit targeting of the soft spots like matings between the hull and turret.

Judging T-72 tanks by assessing the 1970s obsolete RHA armour variants is a wrong analysis of the tank, modernized T-72 have ERA and some further upgraded models with laser warning will alert the tank crew to deploy smoke to blind enemy laser ATGM.

Not the best tank in town, but T-72 with ERA and extras is not an easy foe to defeat unless it's fighting a very technologically advanced enemy.

Nigerian Air force AS 550 Fennec Light Utility Helicopter.

Once upon a time, when NAF was born....

AugustineAgain:


Those ATGM are up against old school RHA 1st generation obsolete T-72 tanks that the US army defeated in Iraq 1990, they are T-72 tanks of 1970s era with ordinary steel armour.

2nd generation T-72 tanks with ERA protection will not be torn apart from turret to hull, the reactive armour stops penetration of first hit by the missile, depending on the calibre of ATGM though. Aggressor needs second missile shot on same spot as the first to penetrate the T-72 ERA armour, or you must do precision/lucky hit targeting of the soft spots like matings between the hull and turret.

Judging T-72 tanks by assessing the 1970s obsolete RHA armour variants is a wrong analysis of the tank, modernized T-72 have ERA and some further upgraded models with laser warning will alert the tank crew to deploy smoke to blind enemy laser ATGM.

Not the best tank in town, but T-72 with ERA and extras is not an easy foe to defeat unless it's fighting a very technologically advanced enemy.

Augustus. This is completely and utterly wrong.

Here is a very important phrase: Tandem-Head Charge

It defeats ERA with ease, but hey - dont take my word for it - take a look at this:

T72, with ERA gets suffers a catastrophic penetration - watch from 7:00 min onwards

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmRpmM69XvY

ERA is designed to protect against shaped charge (HE, HESH, older RPG's and such) as well as SABOT rounds... against tandem-head charges ERA is fvcked.

Hence why NATO nations favor passive Chobham and Dorchestor armor over reactive armor (they use small amounts of ERA here and there)

Laser warning does not work against radio or wire guided SACLOS ATGM systems such as.... the Milan... and by the way, guess who operates the Milan

patches689:


Augustus. This is completely and utterly wrong.

Here is a very important phrase: Tandem-Head Charge

It defeats ERA with ease, but hey - dont take my word for it - take a look at this:

T72, with ERA gets suffers a catastrophic penetration - watch from 7:00 min onwards

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmRpmM69XvY

ERA is designed to protect against shaped charge (HE, HESH, older RPG's and such) as well as SABOT rounds... against tandem-head charges ERA is fvcked.

Hence why NATO nations favor passive Chobham and Dorchestor armor over reactive armor (they use small amounts of ERA here and there)

Go back and read my post again, I said "depending on the calibre of ATGM though".

There are different types and calibre of ATGM and their effectiveness varies from type to type.

I constructed my comment carefully, learn to read carefully too.

Also, there are different types of ERA :

"Kontakt-5 ERA are harder to trigger by the precursor charges of tandem warheads, forcing the producers of tandem ATGMs to allocate more mass to precursor charge and, making an MBT more resistant to tandem HEAT warheads."

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/EQP/kontakt5.html

Lets not drag this issue, I comment in a balanced way, I don't tilt to one side as if the other side of the coin does not exist.

AugustineAgain:


Go back and read my post again, I said "depending on the calibre of ATGM though".

There are different types and calibre of ATGM and their effectiveness varies from type to type. I constructed my comment carefully, learn to read carefully too.

Charge type does not relate to calibre

You constructed an argument that tried to imply that to take out ERA you had to hit it in the same place twice.

This is an incorrect argument, due to the proliferation of tandem head charges.

If you want to say that ERA is effective against obsolete weapons systems then say so

My argument is simple, but clearly not simple enough

patches689:


Charge type does not relate to calibre

You constructed an argument that tried to imply that to take out ERA you had to hit it in the same place twice.

This is an incorrect argument, due to the proliferation of tandem head charges.

If you want to say that ERA is effective against obsolete weapons systems then say so

My argument is simple, but clearly not simple enough

I just told you to form a habit of reading carefully, when the writer has written carefully.

Read my comment again, I said "There are different types and calibre of ATGM and their effectiveness varies from type to type."

I said type also, not just calibre, and I said type more than calibre. Type refers to warheads/charges/etc.

Also read the Kontakt-5 ERA I posted above, it defeats some tandem ATGM.

Be balanced in your comments, every coin has two sides. Let's not mislead people by one sided comments.

AugustineAgain:


Go back and read my post again, I said "depending on the calibre of ATGM though".

There are different types and calibre of ATGM and their effectiveness varies from type to type.

I constructed my comment carefully, learn to read carefully too.

Also, there are different types of ERA :

"Kontakt-5 ERA are harder to trigger by the precursor charges of tandem warheads, forcing the producers of tandem ATGMs to allocate more mass to precursor charge and, making an MBT more resistant to tandem HEAT warheads."

http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/EQP/kontakt5.html

Lets not drag this issue, I comment in a balanced way, I don't tilt to one side as if the other side of the coin does not exist.

The performance of all T-72's in all combat arena's, regardless of the armor packages they have, has shown it to be an utterly inferior tank.

The fact that some rebels in Syria and Iraq can cut through HUNDREDS of T-72's with the ATGM's and RGP's they have access to, says everything that needs to be said about it

The fact that we were discussing whether or not the most heavily armored tank in the world (The challenger 2, with both Dorchester and the Street fighter upgrade) stands any chance on the modern battlefield is an indication of just how outmatched the T-72 is against AT weapons across the globe - AT weapons that are very easy to get your hands on.

No sane military in the world should ever buy the T72, unless they are in an absolute crisis and cant get anything better at short notice. Hell, even the T80 suffered heavily against Chechen rebels in the 1990's.

I will even go further to say that of all the major tank manufacturers in the world, the Russians have the most inferior products - I would buy a Chinese Type 96G/A over everything the Eastern Block offers (with the exception of the Polish PT-91 Twardy).

And before you start going on about the T84 Oplot... it costs the same price as the Chally 2, with much less armor and no combat history.

AugustineAgain:


I just told you to form a habit of reading carefully, when the writer has written carefully.

Read my comment again, I said "There are different types and calibre of ATGM and their effectiveness varies from type to type."

I said type also, not just calibre, and I said type more than calibre. Type refers to warheads/charges/etc.

Also read the Kontakt-5 ERA I posted above, it defeats some tandem ATGM.

Be balanced in your comments, every coin has two sides. Let's not mislead people by one sided comments.

No augustus, you said caliber you said nothing about types.

And even if you had said "type and caliber", the fact remains that we have seen a massive proliferation of advanced tandem head ATGM's and as such the T72 stands no chance against any decent opponent.

The T-72 is known for one thing and only one thing: killing its crew

For fvck sakes, apart from the fact that it will explode and send its turret 30 feet into the air if you even look at it funny... it also has a reputation of ripping the gunners arm off if he doesn't pay attention (yes, you are now aware that the T72 quite literally EATS ITS OWN CREW)

patches689:


Laser warning does not work against radio or wire guided SACLOS ATGM systems such as.... the Milan... and by the way, guess who operates the Milan

France operates and makes the Milan.

Don't bring South Africa Vs Nigeria rivalry to this clean thread. Not only SANDF operates the Milan ATGM, so why post one strange country's ERA armour destroyed by what we don'f know, beside a SANDF Milan missile, is it SANDF that destroyed the T-72 ?

Also read my comment again, I said "Proper ERA", there are different types of ERA used by different countries.

I deliberately avoided posting photo of Nigerian T-72, I posted South Sudanese to avoid immature people here from starting another South Africa Vs Nigeria argument here on a photo thread.

Please grow up and know where not to drag SA vs NIG argument, it does not fit the theme of this thread. Be mature and control your emotions

patches689:


No augustus, you said caliber you said nothing about types.

Learn to read like an adult.

AugustineAgain:


There are different types and calibre of ATGM and their effectiveness varies from type to type.

AugustineAgain:


France operates and makes the Milan.

Don't bring South Africa Vs Nigeria rivalry to this clean thread. Not only SANDF operates the Milan ATGM, so why post one strange country's ERA armour destroyed by what we don'f know, beside a SANDF Milan missile, is it SANDF that destroyed the T-72 ?

Also read my comment again, I said "Proper ERA", there are different types of ERA used by different countries.

I deliberately avoided posting photo of Nigerian T-72, I posted South Sudanese to avoid immature people here from starting another South Africa Vs Nigeria argument here on a photo thread.

Please grow up and know where not to drag SA vs NIG argument, it does not fit the theme of this thread. Be mature and control your emotions

Where did i mention Nigeria in my post? Am i not allowed to mention the equipment South Africa has?

Stop being so sensitive, there is no need to imagine insults where there are none.

AugustineAgain:


Learn to read like an adult.

That is not what you said in your initial post.

I responded to your initial post.

There is no need to hurl emotional and childish insults on this thread, we are all friends here.

patches689:


The performance of all T-72's in all combat arena's, regardless of the armor packages they have, has shown it to be an utterly inferior tank.

No tank in the world of same 1st and 2nd generation as the T-72, has been able to defeat it in battle. War history proves that.

About every tank in the world with no composite armour will be demolished by ATGM hits, no tank in the world will survive those missiles or hits that destroyed T-72.

People talk about T-72 because it's the only cold war era tank that fought battles in modern times against modern anti-tank weapons.

Show us European tanks of 1st and 2nd generation that resisted ATGM in battle.....you will find NONE !
.

AugustineAgain:


No tank in the world of same 1st and 2nd generation as the T-72, has been able to defeat it in battle. War history proves that.

About every tank in the world with no composite armour will be demolished by ATGM hits, no tank in the world will survive those missiles or hits that destroyed T-72.

People talk about T-72 because it's the cold war era tank that has fought most battles in modern times against modern anti-tank weapons.

Show us European tanks of 1st and 2nd generation that resisted ATGM in battle.....you will find NONE !
.

Yes, I agree.

It is an obsolete tank and people should stop buying it - it has no place on the modern battlefield.

What should happen on the modern battle-feild: Merk 4 hit by an ATGM, tank is rendered combat ineffective (can be towed away and repaired) and crew walks away

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKX_lrB1ZIg

A t-72 (basic) costs $2 million.
A Merk 4 costs $6 million.

Would you rather have 33 Merkava 4 or 100 T-72?

patches689:


That is not what you said in your initial post.

I responded to your initial post.

Nope, you responded at 2:41 pm to my post of 2:38 pm, my initial post was way back at 1:00 pm.

Let's leave this argument and return to photos. If we choose to comment, let's avoid biased one sided comments, better not to comment at all.

AugustineAgain:


Nope, you responded at 2:41 pm to my post of 2:38 pm, my initial post was way back at 1:00 pm.

Let's leave this argument and return to photos. If we choose to comment, let's avoid biased one sided comments, better not to comment at all.

And the post you made at 1:00pm is your initial post which I responded to.

I have made no biased or one sided comments.

I think perhapse you should refrain from commenting as you are unable to enter discussion with anyone without hurling insults.

Discussion has flowed alongside pictures on this thread since its inception.

What has no place on this forum is senseless bickering.

patches689:


Yes, I agree.

It is an obsolete tank and people should stop buying it - it has no place on the modern battlefield.

South Sudan and Ethiopia just bought T-72 tanks in recent years. How many countries in the world have $5 million to spend on one 3rd generation tank ? In the whole of West Africa, almost no country has ever bought a tank except Nigeria, not even Ghana, or Chad and Cameroon in central Africa. T-72 will continue to sell all over the world.

patches689:


And the post you made at 1:00pm is your initial post which I responded to.

Nope, that your response at 2:41 pm quoted my comment of 2:38 pm NOT 1:00 pm initial post. It's visible above for all eyes.

Let's limit comments, and let's avoid deliberately rubbishing one weapon because we don't like one country that uses them.

Photos with sensible comments OR no comments at all.

AugustineAgain:


South Sudan and Ethiopia just bought T-72 tanks in recent years. How many countries in the world have $5 million to spend on one 3rd generation tank ? In the whole of West Africa, almost no country has ever bought a tank except Nigeria, not even Ghana, or Chad and Cameroon in central Africa. T-72 will continue to sell all over the world.

And all across the 3rd world tankers will continue to be incinerated

Cameroon is rumored to be looking at the MBT3000 and again, I would rather have 33 Merk 4's/ 40 Leo 2's/ 50 Chally 2's/ 50 MBT3000's than 100 T-72's

AugustineAgain:


Nope, that your response at 2:41 pm quoted my comment of 2:38 pm NOT 1:00 pm initial post. It's visible above for all eyes.

Let's limit comments, and let's avoid deliberately rubbishing one weapon because we don't like one country that uses them.

Photos with sensible comments OR no comments at all.

I responded to your initial post at the top of the page - you are right it is clear for all to see it.

Again you see imaginary insults - I dont dislike the T-72 because Nigeria uses it. I dislike the T-72 because it is a TERRIBLE tank

All of my posts have been factual and sensible, the problem here is that you are being overly sensitive and take everything personally.

.

.

Henry120:
Nigerian Air force AS 550 Fennec Light Utility Helicopter.

Well done Nigeria. Especially on outfitting these with pintle mounts for your guns. And to think some slowpoke defended the strings on the Pumas by claiming some "mastery of gunship".

frumentius:


Well done Nigeria. Especially on outfitting these with pintle mounts for your guns. And to think some slowpoke defended the strings on the Pumas by claiming some "mastery of gunship".

Puma is primarily a troop transport

Pretty hard to get in and out of a transport with a pintlemounted MG in the doorway

Anyway, fairly epic video featuring Oryx doing troop insertions... love it


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Avf3VAGGFDo

Interesting story!
A BDF helicopter patrolling the Nam/Bots Border

patches689:


Puma is primarily a troop transport

Pretty hard to get in and out of a transport with a pintlemounted MG in the doorway

Doesn't have to be pintle. The CSIR came up with a nifty solution for the Oryx, which does not impede ingress and egress: PIC 1 & 2.

Pic 3: All sorts of wrong, particularly when said military has an excellent engineer corps!

Frumentius, i was trying to say the Pintle mounts are obviously better than using strings.

* my original handle got banned for a giving a more elaborate reply, so i'll just leave "this at this"!