You're taking a good move...

wordoflife2us:
Please i really do not want to be confused with any biblical message to ensure that iam doing the right thing and at the right time, please dear nairalanders, i wish to know from the bibllical account what the Lord said about rapture and when it will occur? the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ to redeem His people, is it the time of rapture according the scripture? Another questions is this, will rapture come before the mark of the beast or after the mark of the beast, I need quotes from the Bible please..... We should not be deceived in anyway by the events of our days, be careful and alert, be sober, do not always get drunk, parties and all that, but please try to read your Holy Bible to get light from God to know the hidding wisdom of today's events, you will be able to recognize and know what is going on only when you read the word of God Almighty....

Religious books were designed that way. The more you read, the less you understand. However, they make you believe its your fault that you don't understand. If you must seek knowledge, be thorough. Don't limit yourself to the provisions of religion.

NB: I have not said you should not seek knowledge from your religion.

The rapture would precede the Great tribulation. The pre-rapture believers are not the tribulation saints referred to in Revelations 7:14 & 20:4. Besides, the rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 does not fit into the 7yr tribulation period; it precedes it. Furthermore, the coming of Jesus after the tribulation is not to take saints to Heaven (rapture) but to overthrow the antichrist and commence the millenial reign see Revelations 19:11-21 & 20:1-6.

Scholar8200:
The rapture would precede the Great tribulation. The pre-rapture believers are not the tribulation saints referred to in Revelations 7:14 & 20:4. Besides, the rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 does not fit into the 7yr tribulation period; it precedes it. Furthermore, the coming of Jesus after the tribulation is not to take saints to Heaven (rapture) but to overthrow the antichrist and commence the millenial reign see Revelations 19:11-21 & 20:1-6.

You've said it all. God bless.

wordoflife2us:
Please i really do not want to be confused with any biblical message to ensure that iam doing the right thing and at the right time, please dear nairalanders, i wish to know from the bibllical account what the Lord said about rapture and when it will occur? the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ to redeem His people, is it the time of rapture according the scripture? Another questions is this, will rapture come before the mark of the beast or after the mark of the beast, I need quotes from the Bible please..... We should not be deceived in anyway by the events of our days, be careful and alert, be sober, do not always get drunk, parties and all that, but please try to read your Holy Bible to get light from God to know the hidding wisdom of today's events, you will be able to recognize and know what is going on only when you read the word of God Almighty....

read this thread, it will help you a lot. https://www.nairaland.com/1853536/end-days-end-harvest

nynbrada:


You've said it all. God bless.

Glory be to God. God bless you too.

Hassan080196:
You're taking a good move...

Thanks dear... May our GOD JEHOVAH Almighty save us His people! Amen......

malvisguy212:
read this thread, it will help you a lot. https://www.nairaland.com/1853536/end-days-end-harvest

Thanks!

I know this much


Matthew 24:14 (NIV)
And this gospel of the kingdom will
be preached in the whole world as a
testimony to all nations, and then the
end will come

So please help hasten our Lord's return by preaching the Gospel to all around you.

Scholar8200:
The rapture would precede the Great tribulation. The pre-rapture believers are not the tribulation saints referred to in Revelations 7:14 & 20:4. Besides, the rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 does not fit into the 7yr tribulation period; it precedes it. Furthermore, the coming of Jesus after the tribulation is not to take saints to Heaven (rapture) but to overthrow the antichrist and commence the millenial reign see Revelations 19:11-21 & 20:1-6.

you are just talking figuratively like the book of revelation without giving the op the interpretation to the revelations thereby further confusing the op the more.
note: revelation is written with figurative language and there are internal meaning of each elements.
the accient Catholic church who postulated this idea never put this in consideration.
today Christians are now taking the idea to confuse themselves

wordoflife2us:
Please i really do not want to be confused with any biblical message to ensure that iam doing the right thing and at the right time, please dear nairalanders, i wish to know from the bibllical account what the Lord said about rapture and when it will occur? the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ to redeem His people, is it the time of rapture according the scripture? Another questions is this, will rapture come before the mark of the beast or after the mark of the beast, I need quotes from the Bible please..... We should not be deceived in anyway by the events of our days, be careful and alert, be sober, do not always get drunk, parties and all that, but please try to read your Holy Bible to get light from God to know the hidding wisdom of today's events, you will be able to recognize and know what is going on only when you read the word of God Almighty....

This may be strange to you, but read it carefully and confirm from Scriptures
First of all the Bible never mentioned rapture anywhere.Don't mind Nigerian pastors.
.it is recently discovered that the rapture idea postulated by the ancient catholic church centuries ago and end of the world doctrine contradicts the Gospel of God's kingdom on earth which Jesus asked christians to preach, saying this Gospel of the kingdom must be preached to all nation, then shall the end come.
the end of the world is a figurative language Matthew 24:4 and 24:6:, Because Jesus was abt to be crucified at that time his disciples asked him the question at mount olive.iThe end of the world actually mean the end of other religions apart from Christianity, starting from the crucifixion of jesus.
prophet joel prophesy the time of crucifixion of jesus as the end time which is approximately the time of pentecost 2000 yrs ago. Act 2:16-17
so end time has pass
no rapture,
We are already now in heaven.
Christianity the only accepted religion is the heaven on earth. (Oyedepo will say heaven on earth, he must have seen something in the Bible )
Remember, Christianity was founded by Jesus at resurrection. That means old testament was never Christianity.
God rejected the old covenant and lifted Christianity the new covenant for salvation just like moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness
.Therefore we are saved by our christian faith, not by our works.
Our christian faith(Christianity ) which is THE CHURCH (Jesus says i will build my church which he built at his crucifixion and resurrection ) is Gods kingdom on earth, If you understand jesus parables when he will say the kingdom of God is like unto....)
As a matter of fact the kingdom of God on earth has begun 2000 yrs ago, it has no end, Christianity has no end, Christianity is what we are suppose to preach, it is already the salvation like that.
it follows that this world remain forever and ever until Christianity remain the only religion on earth forever and ever.
a time will come like that, only God knows the billion on years to achieve that.
That is his ultimate goal by sending Jesus on earth, to eliminate death that adam incure as a result of sin and restore the eternal life that Adam and eve lost so that man will live eternally and replenish this world which was the original plan, be fruitful, multiply and replenish the earth.
Do you know that we never died as Christians?
We have been living on this earth since the day Jesus resurrected 2000 years ago and we will continue to live forever .
we have been resurecting, we don't know. only that our body was changed and brain formatted each time we resurrect. Read 1 cor 15:35 down to the end
resurrection of the dead here on earth is real.
You might see your love one who died times ago you will never know he or she is the person.
the disciples even find it difficult to recognise Jesus after his resurrection.
Every new born baby in Christ(Christianity ) is a new creature who once lived and get old and died. and old things were pass away
Eve commited the sin but we are saved in child bearing if we continue in Christianity . 2tim 2;15
Death has been defeated by Christ.
that thing we call death is not death, it is sleep
a lot of confused christians say Matthew 24 talk about rapture and end of this world. it is not true.
nations were rising against nations and kingdom against kingdoms,there were lot earthquake at the time jesus was crucified.
prophet Joel prophesied end time or last day as the time of pentecost 2000 yrs ago,where holy spirit descended on the apostles and they speak in other tongues and prophesied and visions etc.Act 2:16-17

What is commonly called the rapture is a real event which has not happened yet

1Co 15:50 And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, that you be not grieved, even as others who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
1Th 4:15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

johnw74:

What is commonly called the rapture is a real event which has not happened yet

1Co 15:50 And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, that you be not grieved, even as others who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
1Th 4:15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Thank God you came up with this
it's just that the things to address to Nigerians to bring about change of perception and mindset are so many.
i am trying hard to avoid writing plenty things.
See, Bible is beyond what you see as letters on paper.
You have to read everything and think deep to understand.
every chapter is like argument.
the structure of every argument has premises and conclusion.
sometimes the writter starts from the premises and end at the conclusion and vice versa.
so you must read everything in the chapter and draw out your summary.
you don't just read only 1 cor 15:50,51,52, and conclude that the place is talking about rapture, this is the mistake the ancient Catholic church did when they postulated the rapture doctrine.
today, Catholic church is running away from it
and penecostals are pursuing it blindly.
what was Paul's argument by writing 1 cor 15: 35 to the end, which include verse 50,51 and 52 ?
He was simply proving that there is resurrection of the dead, he never mentioned rapture or anything like people flying to the clouds.
He started by saying, some will ask, How is the dead resurrected and with what body will they come?
1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
if you follow this argument of Paul to the end of the chapter you will find out that Paul is not a madman to start talking about resurrection of the dead only to begin to divert to something else which do not relate to how men are resurrected such as rapture in verse 50,51 and 52.
if you know what sound argument is, talking about rapture at the end will never make a sound argument for someone like Paul who was highly vast and educated in his time.
If you check all Paul's writing starting from Romans, you will see how he puts all his arguments intelligently and constructively.
So, when you read 1 cor 15:35 down, having said our body will change when we resurrect, he talk about different bodies created by God, some are terrestrial (earthly bodies ) others are celestial (in space ).
He said, God gives bodies according to his will (that is when we resurrect ).
so, we will come back with a different body .
Then he now pointed out a mystery in verse 51, still relating to this resurrection thing.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
meaning, we shall not die (sleep means death )But we shall all resurrect and change body
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Death is not death, But blinking of the eye (eye closed and open again into life ) at the last trumpet (Death is like calling, using trumpet, that your time has reach to die. In those days trumpet was used to call people either for battle or something,so understand why Paul is using the word trumpet here )
We will be called using trumpet, meaning, we will die.And the dead shall be raised incorruptible (we will not decay with our dead body ) and we shall be changed (our body will be change after we resurrect )
Now, looking at this, is there anything like rapture there? Or people flying to the clouds?
Sometimes, I wonder what Nigerians see when they read Bible.
Please, forget your pastors and church, read your Bible for yourself

johnw74:

What is commonly called the rapture is a real event which has not happened yet

1Co 15:50 And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, that you be not grieved, even as others who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
1Th 4:15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Also
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God(This is a figurative language which summary meaning is, we shall die. Death is like calling by God using trumpet that our time to die has come. This happen to everybody on earth ): and the dead in Christ shall rise first( Dead in Christ means those who die as Christians not as Muslims,That those who die as christians will rise (resurrect first, followed by non christians. Then everybody will face judgment..it is appointed once for men to die, after that judgment. After judgment which will last at the period of eye blinking, eye closed. see 1 cor 15:52..Christians will open their eyes without blinking again into life, into the womb of another woman.to be born into this world as a new creature, old life have pass away . 2 Timothy 2:15 says we are saved in child bearing .Then, non christians will not open their eye and blink close forever and go like that, which is the second death in revelation or condemnation ,. Because Jesus came to found Christianity for salvation ):
1Thesalonians 4:17 is another figurative language and this is the meaning
Then we who are alive(everybody will not die at the same time, while some dies others will be alive waiting for their time for their trumpet to call them at their end ) and remain shall be caught up together with them(those who remain and did not die shall caught up or interact with those who was given birth to, who once lived their former life and died and resurrected into this world ) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.(this is a figurative language which means heaven on earth. The clouds represent an entity known as God's kingdom on earth which are all christians on earth(Those who believe that Jesus is the coming Messiah which the jews refuses to believe ). All christians represent God's kingdom or heaven if you understand Jesus parables ) And so we shall ever be with the Lord.( meaning, the lord is inside us, our body is his temple, God is not beyond the clouds But in us ).
If Bible was expanciated the way Jesus expanciated his figurative languagues or parables which is the format i use to expanciate this, then no book will contain Bible.
take a look at this
Matthew 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
You see how Jesus did it?
this is this
this is that
that represent this
this is how i am doing my own.
This is how to get understanding

Christ will return in like manner as He was taken up,
and those alive in Christ at the rapture will be taken up as Christ was:

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.



1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Is this rapture before the tribulation, or after the tribulation?

johnw74:

Christ will return in like manner as He was taken up,
and those alive in Christ at the rapture will be taken up as Christ was:

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.



1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Matthew 13:24-43" V's 27 "So the servants of the owner came and said to him, "Sir did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares.
He said the them, An enemy has done this, the servants said to him, "Do you want us then to go and gather them up? "But he said, No lest, while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
"Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the "TARES" and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.
V's 36" the disciples asked Jesus what He meant by this parable. V's 39 the enemy who sowed the tares into the field is the devil-The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
Jesus said the angels will gather up the tares first and put them into the fire, and then the wheat will be taken into the barns.
So this means the rapture will be at the end of the age, not before.

Revelation 1:7 "When he comes every eye will see him, and also those who pierces him, and all the kindred of the earth shall wail because of Him.
Does this say, everyone will see Him-and then we are rapture'd with Christ after His angels takes the tares and throws them into the fire.
Two men will be in the field one will be taken the other one left-two women will be at the mill, one will be taken and the other one left. Is this scripture showing us again; the tares will be bundled up and throwing into the fire, before we meet the lord in the clouds at the end of the age.
But hey you don't have to listen to me, just read your bible, ask the Lord to show you, is their a rapture before the tribulation, are the Christians are being taught the truth about this rapture, or can anyone find fault in the scriptures, Or the tribulation theory isn't clear, when and what time the Lords said He is coming back for His Church. Before or after?

Its Like that other theory the Churches preach on tithing, and again that isn't scriptural.

johnw74:

Christ will return in like manner as He was taken up,
and those alive in Christ at the rapture will be taken up as Christ was:

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.



Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.



1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Assuming these scriptures will happen exactly the way it was written without you finding out the actual interpretation of them all,that we will be raptured to heaven in the future, we are not in heaven now. then they will contradict all these other scriptures
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
so, you see that we have already been translated into his kingdom already. we are already in heaven.
How were we translated to his kingdom on earth ?
before he established his kingdom on earth he thought his disciples to pray for the kingdom to come to earth
Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Jesus was the kingdom of God in the midst of his disciples and the Pharisees,The Pharisees were expecting the kingdom to come by the Messiah But they didnt know that Jesus was the kingdom and the Messiah
Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.(meaning, the Messiah( Jesus himself) has come to you from heaven)
so, Jesus is the kingdom of God( starting from crucifixion ) in all christians here on earth.
we don't need any arbitrary heaven beyond the clouds
Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
that is what he told his disciples before he was crucified, But after the crucifixion he gave us the keys to heaven here on earth .
i don't know what today christians are still looking for beyond the clouds. it's like they are doubting Jesus
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
some of his disciples didn't die until they entered heaven.
so, we are already in heaven
Luke 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
he made this statement when he had communion with his disciples, that was before he was crucified, before heaven was established here on earth. But he did not communion again with them until after he was crucified,after heaven was brought down to earth.
After he was crucified and brought heaven on earth, john 21:13 Recorded that he communion with them the way he used to do likewise before he was crucified
John 21:13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.
so, you see, we are already in heaven
nothing like rapture
no end time
God's kingdom here on earth is forever, no end
so, to explain
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee,
why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same
Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,
shall so come in like manner as ye have
seen him go into heaven .
this is figurative statement which means that Jesus is with his disciples always, that they shouldn't be afraid that he was taken away from them, he will come and be with them at the time of trouble.
Matt 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of
man coming in the clouds with great power
and glory.
Jesus made this statement before he was crucified. He was talking about the time he was going to resurrect
His resurrection is his power and Glory.
The clouds there is a figurative language which means heaven.
He brought heaven down on earth the day he resurrected
the same thing with revelation 1:7 and 1thes 4:7

brocab:
Is this rapture before the tribulation, or after the tribulation?

I don't know, pre tribbers say before, post tribbers say after.

The righteous would be raptured before the hour of trial and tribulations.

Revelation 3:10

Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Matthew 24:40-42

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Therefore be alert, since you don't know what day your Lord is coming.

After the rapture; the left-behind would be tried by the antichrist in the furnace of affliction...those who reject the mark of the beast (ways of the world) and endure to the end would saved when Christ appears in His glory to take over the world from the antichrist AKA world Government for final judgement!

Zechariah 13:8-9

And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, "The LORD our my God."

Matthew 24:13

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

As twisted as this sounds, I believe pastors who teach on the rapture theory, should at least tell it as the bible had written it.
I myself was taught the Rapture was before the tribulation-I never really understood the rapture message-and I still don't believe other believers fully understand it either.
It has been taught by the pastors-and like the tithing theory no-one in Church has questioned it. None of the scriptures line up with the rapture before the tribulation.
Revelation 3:10 "Which say's Jesus will keep us safe from the hour of testing. Again I can't find any evidence in this verse that the Lord is talking about the rapture.
Matthew 24:37 "As its was in the days of Noah so it will be also at the coming of the son of man, and in the day of Lot.
We have all read this story and the Lord kept them both safe from the hour of trials, while the rest of the world died either in the flood, or with meteorites that fell from the skies. No rapture.
This again shows me we will see these things happen, and those who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 13:24:39 "Jesus had pointed it out that the harvest will be at the end of this age. First gather up the tares and throw them into the fire, and than gather up the wheat and put them into barns.
The tares are the people who refuses God-and the wheat is the elect.
Matthew 24:9 "And they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, for My name sake, many will betray one another and hate one another, many false prophets will raise up and deceive many, and because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will go cold. But he who endures to the end' shall be saved. And then the gospel will be preached to all the world as a witness to all the nations and then the end will come.
This scripture tells me, I believe the Rapture theory will turn the church against the church in the last days, Christians are not ready to go through the tribulation and many believers will turn against the pastors, and betray the lord, Jesus says those who endure to the the end shall be saved.
Christians have no understanding what's coming for the Christians. Already the world is turning upside down, and no-one is watching.
If we believed we will be delivered up in the rapture before the tribulation comes-Then I ask who is Jesus talking about, when he said they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you for His name sake? And if we were to be raptured before the tares, then why would the world hate their own, and kill them, for the sake of Jesus, if they didn't believe.
The world looks after their own without Jesus
The bible shows that the rapture is after the tribulation-not before.

johnw74:


I don't know, pre tribbers say before, post tribbers say after.

brocab:
As twisted as this sounds, I believe pastors who teach on the rapture theory, should at least tell it as the bible had written it.
I myself was taught the Rapture was before the tribulation-I never really understood the rapture message-and I still don't believe other believers fully understand it either.
It has been taught by the pastors-and like the tithing theory no-one in Church has questioned it. None of the scriptures line up with the rapture before the tribulation.
Revelation 3:10 "Which say's Jesus will keep us safe from the hour of testing. Again I can't find any evidence in this verse that the Lord is talking about the rapture.
Matthew 24:37 "As its was in the days of Noah so it will be also at the coming of the son of man, and in the day of Lot.
We have all read this story and the Lord kept them both safe from the hour of trials, while the rest of the world died either in the flood, or with meteorites that fell from the skies. No rapture.
This again shows me we will see these things happen, and those who endures to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 13:24:39 "Jesus had pointed it out that the harvest will be at the end of this age. First gather up the tares and throw them into the fire, and than gather up the wheat and put them into barns.
The tares are the people who refuses God-and the wheat is the elect.
Matthew 24:9 "And they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, for My name sake, many will betray one another and hate one another, many false prophets will raise up and deceive many, and because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will go cold. But he who endures to the end' shall be saved. And then the gospel will be preached to all the world as a witness to all the nations and then the end will come.
This scripture tells me, I believe the Rapture theory will turn the church against the church in the last days, Christians are not ready to go through the tribulation and many believers will turn against the pastors, and betray the lord, Jesus says those who endure to the the end shall be saved.
Christians have no understanding what's coming for the Christians. Already the world is turning upside down, and no-one is watching.
If we believed we will be delivered up in the rapture before the tribulation comes-Then I ask who is Jesus talking about, when he said they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you for His name sake? And if we were to be raptured before the tares, then why would the world hate their own, and kill them, for the sake of Jesus, if they didn't believe.
The world looks after their own without Jesus
The bible shows that the rapture is after the tribulation-not before.

The persecution of the saints you alluded to has taken and is still taking place today. we need to differentiate between the coming of Christ in the rapture (1 Thess 4:17,18) and the coming of Christ to establish the Millenium.(Revelations 19:11-21 and Revelations 20)

Seriallinks:
The righteous would be raptured before the hour of trial and tribulations.

Revelation 3:10

Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Matthew 24:40-42

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Therefore be alert, since you don't know what day your Lord is coming.

After the rapture; the left-behind would be tried by the antichrist in the furnace of affliction...those who reject the mark of the beast (ways of the world) and endure to the end would saved when Christ appears in His glory to take over the world from the antichrist AKA world Government for final judgement!

Zechariah 13:8-9

And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, "The LORD our my God."

Matthew 24:13

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

This is the comprehensive detail of Matthew 24
Matthew 24 is the most confusing chapter of the Bible.
the chapter has caused confusion to nations.
Nigerian christians are the current biggest victim of this chapter.
the whole Matthew 24 was a direct
quotation of a written prophecy (including Daniel's prophecy about Jesus Christ ) quoted by
Jesus to his disciples on that day when the
world ended.(the world or that dispensation ended at Jesus resurrection. to people of the days of prophet Joel, that day of resurrection marked the last days which included the day of pentecost which was not far away from the day of resurrection of Jesus
Act 2:16-17
when the disciples asked Jesus the question in Matthew 24:3.....Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
They already read about the prophecy of the coming of the Messiah and the end of the world,
They knew Jesus was the Messiah who is to come and he has come.(the coming of Jesus )
But they wanted to know whether the world will end immediately at crucifixion because the time of crucifixion was near as Jesus and his disciples approaches Jerusalem .
even some of the disciples was thinking that heaven will come down physically immediately they arrive Jerusalem and end the world
Luke 19:11 ... because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
To answer their question, Jesus gave them the signs of his coming, the signs that was prophesied that will happen when Jesus will come and be crucified which was happening at their environment that the disciples saw.
that there will be rumors of wars
there was truly rumors of wars at that time. remember, the Roman empire invaded Israel at that time.
famine, earthquake etc also happen that time .
He also told them what will happen in the future that Christians will be pesecuted which actually happen, remember, Paul and Silas were thrown into prison, Stephen was stoned etc
He talk about the signs that just happened on their way to Jerusalem which is the great tribulation.
the Great tribulation was the journey from
Galilee to Jerusalem the disciples went through
by following Jesus. they abandoned all that
they had (peter says we have left all and follow
thee) and went through the harsh condition of
the wilderness. the bible desribed that event as
the worst in the history of mankind Matthew
24:21.
immediately after the great tribulation, Christ
was crucidied.
this is what happened during the crucifixion,
check your Bible and confirm this.
then,immediately after that tribulation matt
24:29 says SHALL THE SUN BE DARKENED,the
moon shall not give her light, the stars shall
fall from heaven (all these point to one thing
that THERE WILL BE DARKNESS)
Luke 23:44 confirmed this when Christ was
crucified .
And it was about the sixth hour(6am early in
the mourning ), and there was a DARKNESS
over all the earth until the ninth hour.(9am in
the morning )
also, earthquake was mentioned.
AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS
SHALL BE SHAKENED (this signifies
EARTHQUAKE )
and truly, there was earthquake when Christ
was crucified.
Matthew 27:51.confirmed this.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in
twain from the top to the bottom; AND THE
EARTH DID QUAKE , and the rocks rent
all these things happened after the disciples
followed Jesus on a long journey to Jerusalem.
that journey was the great tribulation.

Please Read my blog, it may contain information you never thought was true, but if you are willing to make Heaven, you will find information that would help you and whether you adhere to it or not you will remember it all someday.. www.debussieofgod.

Matthew 24:29-31 "Tells us which of the following-"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear from heaven {other words to be at present} and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. "And He will send His angels with a sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect.
Then He continual's to say in V's 37 "But as the days of Noah were so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
So is the Lord is now saying everyone {the tares and the wheat}will see the Son of Man coming as in the day's of Noah 'before the end?

Scholar8200:
The persecution of the saints you alluded to has taken and is still taking place today. we need to differentiate between the coming of Christ in the rapture (1 Thess 4:17,18) and the coming of Christ to establish the Millenium.(Revelations 19:11-21 and Revelations 20)

paxonel:


This is the comprehensive detail of Matthew 24
Matthew 24 is the most confusing chapter of the Bible.
the chapter has caused confusion to nations.
Nigerian christians are the current biggest victim of this chapter.
the whole Matthew 24 was a direct
quotation of a written prophecy (including Daniel's prophecy about Jesus Christ ) quoted by
Jesus to his disciples on that day when the
world ended.(the world or that dispensation ended at Jesus resurrection. to people of the days of prophet Joel, that day of resurrection marked the last days which included the day of pentecost which was not far away from the day of resurrection of Jesus
Act 2:16-17
when the disciples asked Jesus the question in Matthew 24:3.....Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
They already read about the prophecy of the coming of the Messiah and the end of the world,
They knew Jesus was the Messiah who is to come and he has come.(the coming of Jesus )
But they wanted to know whether the world will end immediately at crucifixion because the time of crucifixion was near as Jesus and his disciples approaches Jerusalem .
even some of the disciples was thinking that heaven will come down physically immediately they arrive Jerusalem and end the world
Luke 19:11 ... because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
To answer their question, Jesus gave them the signs of his coming, the signs that was prophesied that will happen when Jesus will come and be crucified which was happening at their environment that the disciples saw.
that there will be rumors of wars
there was truly rumors of wars at that time. remember, the Roman empire invaded Israel at that time.
famine, earthquake etc also happen that time .
He also told them what will happen in the future that Christians will be pesecuted which actually happen, remember, Paul and Silas were thrown into prison, Stephen was stoned etc
He talk about the signs that just happened on their way to Jerusalem which is the great tribulation.
the Great tribulation was the journey from
Galilee to Jerusalem the disciples went through
by following Jesus. they abandoned all that
they had (peter says we have left all and follow
thee) and went through the harsh condition of
the wilderness. the bible desribed that event as
the worst in the history of mankind Matthew
24:21.
immediately after the great tribulation, Christ
was crucidied.
this is what happened during the crucifixion,
check your Bible and confirm this.
then,immediately after that tribulation matt
24:29 says SHALL THE SUN BE DARKENED,the
moon shall not give her light, the stars shall
fall from heaven (all these point to one thing
that THERE WILL BE DARKNESS)
Luke 23:44 confirmed this when Christ was
crucified .
And it was about the sixth hour(6am early in
the mourning ), and there was a DARKNESS
over all the earth until the ninth hour.(9am in
the morning )
also, earthquake was mentioned.
AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS
SHALL BE SHAKENED (this signifies
EARTHQUAKE )
and truly, there was earthquake when Christ
was crucified.
Matthew 27:51.confirmed this.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in
twain from the top to the bottom; AND THE
EARTH DID QUAKE , and the rocks rent
all these things happened after the disciples
followed Jesus on a long journey to Jerusalem.
that journey was the great tribulation.

Didn't bother reading all that, but I get your point!

But it seems you are the one that's confused brah ! The Bible is a spiritual book....it's written a little here and there; all coded and not arranged in series the way a novel or any other book is written. You don't go reading the whole Matt 24 and attributing it to the "abomination of desolation".

This is how the Bible is written and it's a delusional trap for those who read and follow it like a novel LOL

Isaiah 28:13

So the word of the LORD to them will be, "Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there," That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.

Sir, the word of GOD is written precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little...sometimes, even the end from the beginning! Sometimes a chapter may be referring to 4 or 5 different events scattered all over its verses!

Try studying some psalms and you will understand what I'm trying to put across! Prophecies of the coming of Christ were all mixed up with other events and prayers together...that's how the Bible is written!

brocab:
Matthew 24:29-31 "Tells us which of the following-"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear from heaven {other words to be at present} and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. "And He will send His angels with a sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect.
Then He continual's to say in V's 37 "But as the days of Noah were so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
So is the Lord saying everyone will see the Son of Man coming as the day's of Noah 'before the rapture?
And everyone will see the Son of Man come even the elect.
I find this interesting. this is why I love the bible.

This passage is referring to the event in Revelations 19:11-21, 20:1-6 The rapture will witness the resurrection of the dead in Christ , and the physical transformation of those alive in Christ and the meeting in the air. This is different from the gathering of the elect after the tribulation. At the time of the Second coming, Christ will descend on Mount Olives Zechariah 14:3-7 and after the battle, establish His Millenial reign Zechariah 14:8,9 just like Ezekiel prophesied Ezekiel 47:1-9
Remember that the great tribulation marks the continuation of God's programme with Israel according to Daniel's 70 week prophecy. Hence, apart from tribulation saints, the elect of the tribulation period is Israel, not the Church (whose dispensation ends with the commencement of the tribulation , after the rapture).

Let me point out that since some declarations of the prophets have yet to be fulfilled, Christ and His apostles spoke in such a way that the people after the rapture (Israel and others) will still find both the OT and NT relevant.
But for those who rejected the gospel before the rapture (either due to rebellion or love of pleasure), this is what will happen:
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
10 and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This refers not to Israel but the gentiles who had the privilege of the Church age.

brocab:
Matthew 24:29-31 "Tells us which of the following-"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear from heaven {other words to be at present} and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. "And He will send His angels with a sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect.
Then He continual's to say in V's 37 "But as the days of Noah were so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
So is the Lord saying everyone will see the Son of Man coming as the day's of Noah 'before the rapture?
And everyone will see the Son of Man come even the elect.
I find this interesting. this is why I love the bible.

the sign of the Son of Man will appear
from heaven is not talking about our present day or our future times..it is talking about jesus resurrection that happen 2000 years ago.
Jesus told his disciples he will appear from heaven before he was crucified.
But after the crucifixion he resurrected with great power and glory.
that is the meaning of "the son of man will appear from heaven
The son of man will appear from heaven is a figurative language which means Jesus brought down heaven on earth, that heaven is Christianity on earth.
remember, Jesus founded Christianity on earth the day he resurrected.
figurative languages are defined by english dictionary as expressions that are not in their normal literal meaning but in a way that makes a
description more interesting or impressive.
may be the word heaven is impressing you people.
All the tribes of the heaven will mourn means all the tribes will behold the son of man lifted on the cross just like moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness which literally means all tribes (both Jews and gentiles, not only the Jews ) will believe God through the crucifixion, through Jesus.
It has already started happening.
Billions of adherents of Christianity are living world wide today, including me and you, not only the Jews.
This is the power and glory of Jesus he was talking about.
This is also the meaning of the saying that he shall send his angels to gather his elects from the four corners(all nations ) of the earth.
we are the elects
we have already been gathered.
By identity we are already part of that kingdom by our faith.
the trumpet there is not rapture.
it is figurative language which means to call.
we were called using trumpet, gathered by faith, not by physical gathering or some kind of physical disappearance of people.
And the hope of our calling is for us to live eternal life here on earth.
john 3:16.
So, right now, we are living in the total will of God, how God want it to be.
No need to be afraid of this present world and envisage rapture or some kind of heaven beyond the clouds.
we should remain here, work hard and explore this world and replenish it with love in our heart

Seriallinks:


Didn't bother reading all that, but I get your point!

But it seems you are the one that's confused brah ! The Bible is a spiritual book....it's written a little here and there; all coded and not arranged in series the way a novel or any other book is written. You don't go reading the whole Matt 24 and attributing it to the "abomination of desolation".

This is how the Bible is written and it's a delusional trap for those who read and follow it like a novel LOL

Isaiah 28:13

So the word of the LORD to them will be, "Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there," That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.

Sir, the word of GOD is written precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little...sometimes, even the end from the beginning! Sometimes a chapter may be referring to 4 or 5 different events scattered all over its verses!

Try studying some psalms and you will understand what I'm trying to put across! Prophecies of the coming of Christ were all mixed up with other events and prayers together...that's how the Bible is written!

not all chapters of the bible are written as Psalms and proverbs or prayers.
most scriptures are narrative,stories, events. Either by direct speech(example, Matthew 24 and all Jesus speeches written on red letters and most chapters of the book of Romans, Paul narrating his journey ) or indirect speech(example the act of the apostles which was a written events of the activities and persecution of the saints, a progressive story ) that can be read and understand if you can follow the story and think.
And collect facts from other scriptures that confirm what you are reading

So do you believe in Matthew Mark and Luke when Jesus was talking about the end time events happening now' and coming our way.
In Christ I am not afraid, my argument "is" why do Christians believe they will be Rapture'd before the tribulation, and not after.
With the scriptures people have shared with me, doesn't seem to match up with the rapture theory.
These two scriptures below would be my best shot to the rapture theory-but the problem with these two is, we will have to go through the tribulation period.
Matthew 24:21-22 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the word until this time, no, nor ever shall be. "And unless those days were shortened, No flesh would be saved; but for the elects sake those days will be shortened.
In Mark 13:20 "And unless the lord had shortened those days, No flesh would be saved; but for the elects sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
As you can see these two verses line up with each other, until Jesus say's in Mark whom He chose's to shortened those days. That again tells me, this is not the rapture theory.
There are too many scriptures that follow after these, I can't seem to find verses to prove we will be rapture'd before the tribulation, and already people are suffering around the world, as centuries past many have lost their lives for the Lord.

Many of the believers gave me Revelation 3:10 "which says Jesus will keep you safe from the hour of trial-and to me this scripture matches up, when Jesus says, he will never leave us, or we could read about Noah and Lot when the lord had kept them both safe, from the hour of testing that happen on the earth back then.

paxonel:

the sign of the Son of Man will appear
from heaven is not talking about our present day or our future times..it is talking about jesus resurrection that happen 2000 years ago.
Jesus told his disciples he will appear from heaven before he was crucified.
But after the crucifixion he resurrected with great power and glory.
that is the meaning of "the son of man will appear from heaven
The son of man will appear from heaven is a figurative language which means Jesus brought down heaven on earth, that heaven is Christianity on earth.
remember, Jesus founded Christianity on earth the day he resurrected.
figurative languages are defined by english dictionary as expressions that are not in their normal literal meaning but in a way that makes a
description more interesting or impressive.
may be the word heaven is impressing you people.
All the tribes of the heaven will mourn means all the tribes will behold the son of man lifted on the cross just like moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness which literally means all tribes (both Jews and gentiles, not only the Jews ) will believe God through the crucifixion, through Jesus.
It has already started happening.
Billions of adherents of Christianity are living world wide today, including me and you, not only the Jews.
This is the power and glory of Jesus he was talking about.
This is also the meaning of the saying that he shall send his angels to gather his elects from the four corners(all nations ) of the earth.
we are the elects
we have already been gathered.
By identity we are already part of that kingdom by our faith.
the trumpet there is not rapture.
it is figurative language which means to call.
we were called using trumpet, gathered by faith, not by physical gathering or some kind of physical disappearance of people.
And the hope of our calling is for us to live eternal life here on earth.
john 3:16.
So, right now, we are living in the total will of God, how God want it to be.
No need to be afraid of this present world and envisage rapture or some kind of heaven beyond the clouds.
we should remain here, work hard and explore this world and replenish it with love in our heart

brocab:
So do you believe in Matthew Mark and Luke when Jesus was talking about the end time events happening now' and coming our way.
In Christ I am not afraid, my argument "is" why do Christians believe they will be Rapture'd before the tribulation, and not after.
With the scriptures people have shared with me, doesn't seem to match up with the rapture theory.
These two scriptures below would be my best shot to the rapture theory-but the problem with these two is, we will have to go through the tribulation period.
Matthew 24:21-22 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the word until this time, no, nor ever shall be. "And unless those days were shortened, No flesh would be saved; but for the elects sake those days will be shortened.
In Mark 13:20 "And unless the lord had shortened those days, No flesh would be saved; but for the elects sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
As you can see these two verses line up with each other, until Jesus say's in Mark whom He chose's to shortened those days. That again tells me, this is not the rapture theory.
There are too many scriptures that follow after these, I can't seem to find verses to prove we will be rapture'd before the tribulation, and already people are suffering around the world, as centuries past many have lost their lives for the Lord.

Many of the believers gave me Revelation 3:10 "which says Jesus will keep you safe from the hour of trial-and to me this scripture matches up, when Jesus says, he will never leave us, or we could read about Noah and Lot when the lord had kept them both safe, from the hour of testing that happen on the earth back then.

in all my post in this thread the summary is
End time or last days according to Matthew 24 did not say that it will happen in our present generation or any generation in our future.
But rather, Jesus, after explaining what will happen (which has already happened in that generation he was talking to his disciples, not our current generation ) he said in
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation( that generation he was talking to his disciples which was about 2000 years ago ) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
then he told his disciples to be ready for his crucifixion , not us
24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh(the son of man came that 2000 years ago, but the people of that generation didn't know he was the one ).
we ought to distinguish Jesus coming to be crucified for the sins of mankind which is this Matthew 24:44 from the coming of Jesus for the final judgment in
Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
which refered to death, the day we all will die Jesus will come and judge us
it appointed once for men to die, after that, judgment.
I think, the problem is, our current day Christians are too apprehensive, claiming that Matthew 24 prophesies refered to us this current generation that it is talking about rapture in our future times, which is not true
By this, they create unnecessary fear on people's mind.
There is nothing like rapture
As for the Matthew 24:21-22, revelation 3:10 and
Mark 13:20 you quoted
i will really like to expanciate how Daniel prophesied about the great tribulation which is the abomination of desolation in the book of daniel. which he refered to the time jesus will come and die for the sins of mankind, so that you may understand properly .
But, i don't want to write plenty things again because you will not read it