Eddlad:



Do you have an idea the faith a Christian possess so that he/she can live right, inspite of living in a world, that teaches to see first before believing.

The day you find out is the day you will know why God places so much emphasis on believing before you see.

Am still waiting for a summary and then i will chip in my piece.

johnydon22:
If i wanted a summary it wouldn't have been that long, if you can't read it then move on

Eddlad:


So much for enlightenment.

krattoss:
the faith u were born with or the faith u were made or compelled to believe?

And no sh.t empahasised on believing any poo before u see.


Aint summarising anything. Dont be lazy.

Eddlad:



"Seek and you shall find"
Seeking confines believing.
Atheist find it hard to believe why someone can supposedly believe God without asking any questions but I find it harder to believe why they don't ask why "nothing"(God) can captivate the hearts of soo many, as opposed to "science and evidence"(atheism)

johnydon22:
[b]Before anybody shouts or plays the victims card here about their own religion, let everybody know that in this post when i say "God" i am not only referring to One deity but to many. Both the Muslim and christian concept will be referred together as God, this is a mind tickling thread and a charge for independent reason.

I have always seen Muslims here threaten a Christian with hell like "Repent and turn to God and his holy prophet Muhammed or burn in hell" Ironically Christians also accord the same favour to them like "You will burn in hell if you don't accept Jesus" and then funny enough both religions too regard atheists to be hell bound and also adherents of other religions.
You see, its not even about being a theist. they all still think you are going to hell either way as long as its not theirs. . Christians still think Muslims are going to hell just like atheist even though Muslims believe in a God and same thing goes the other way round.

Now looking at the idea of HELL, it is ok to point out the heavy influence of greek culture on the new testament. The old testament (Judaic Tenark) knows nothing like a HELL, but the influence of the greek underworld concept TARTARUS gave birth to sickening concept HELL when adopted by the newly emerged religion.

RESPONSE
Our Lord and saviour's words;"repent for the kingdom of God is at hand", peace, love, essentially portraying the end to world suffering and all those would thrive, perpetuate and oversee suffering thereof.

I once told a christian that was preaching to me "The very concept of a HELL, ridicules the idea of a God. It insults it and drags it to a level lower than a human"
One might be thinking my reason for saying this.

I have wooed many girls in my life and if i recall correctly i have never said to any of them "I love you, love me back or i hurt you" any sane mind will see that everything should be wrong in that statement.
The very idea of me hurting her if she doesn't love me back nullifies my confession of love for her.
Take another look at that statement, it is a blackmail and an abusive word. I have threatened her so it is a blackmail, if she doesn't love me back i will hurt her. It is a sheer blackmail giving her two nonsensical choices.

RESPONSE
Little bit of "Akan drama" but if your point is that God employs fear tactics then you wrong."Let he who has ears let him hear", you are free to pursue any belief or disbelief you see fit.

Now this is one of the reasons religious people do not know that they themselves ridicule their God concepts even more than atheists, We have seen everything wrong in the statement i presented above, but then again let us show the very large scaled way this is used.
God says "I love you, if you don't love me back i will burn you in hell forever" Am sure everyone can now see everything wrong in this, it is blackmail, it is blatant abuse and the very sadistic idea of punishing someone because they don't reciprocate your love reveals egoism at a chronic level, it is barbaric as well as it is repulsive and blatantly implausible. Yet they want us to swallow that a perfect being operates within such childish egoism and abusive ways.

RESPONSE
It therefore follows rightly that when the Lord descends In his Glory to establish his kingdom those who prefer violence, adultery, hate and whatnot would be rid off.If you read my previous post it makes this perfectly clear, and puts the decision squarely at your feet.

Come to think of it, God should be perfect right? Yes Yes God is perfect. God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, He is even omniperfect.
This very idea of perfection is a flaw in the character people have heaped on their different God concepts. Let us see how.

God is perfect, perfection needs nothing. A circle needs nothing added to it to make it 360°. At 360° a circle is perfect and it is impossible to add even 1° and if you take away 1° and makes it 359° it ceases to be a circle.

So God is perfect, God needs nothing, you can never add anything to it neither can you take away, perfection is just perfection.
If this is the case and God is perfect, this surely means such being needs nothing like Worship, reverence, acknowledgement, praise and all these because it is just perfect.
If God is perfect it simply means that all the worship and reverence etc are useless because he doesn't need them, unless you assert it is not perfect then i will agree it needs them to feed his ego and so feel important.

RESPONSE
The error lies in what you perceive as worship."though shall not steal",should I refrain and curb my urges to take what's not mine, revering God and doing his bidding, that alone is worship.
When the bible points out that Christians will reign and worship the father in his kingdom to come, it goes to emphasize that the will of God will reign in the hearts of men and peace, love and happiness will reign thereby for there will be no looting, killing whatsoever.

But religions drag their God concept too low to a level that it needs worship and acknowledgement on daily basis, needs it real bad even threatens people with eternal torture if you fail to give it, this very quality betrays the idea of perfection and drags down the God concept to the state of Egoism, Narcissism, sadism and all round imperfect.....

RESPONSE
The purpose of enlightenment is to teach to do and observe, from what I have said thus far, answer yourself.

"Believe i exist and i reward you, disbelieve and i will hurt you so bad forever in an eternal roasting fire" Can abuse and blackmail get any cheaper? You would agree with me an existent powerful and perfect being (if there is even need to) do not need people to be threatening others as to hogwash them into believing it exists, rather it should be able to prove its own existence, isn't it?
This also shows how religions ridicule God and not atheist.

RESPONSE
You are right confused unbelievers and atheists both ridicule God.

Again, a perfect being should be above hate, anger, jealousy, grief and all, these disturbing emotions are all characteristics of mundane beings like us because it stems from our own emotional insecurity but if God is perfect it is impossible for such emotions to hold sway on it, it is impossible for it to operate within the confines of these emotions, But the religions are heaping on us God concepts that operate within the confines of such disturbing emotions as Anger, jealousy, hate and even bear grudges with humans and then wrap it under the guise of perfection and expect any right thinking human not to ask questions or refute such ideas! The very acknowledgment of these emotions in a supposedly perfect being kills the idea of perfection and portrays a very imperfect being or should i say concept.
This yet again is another way religions ridicule and insult their God concepts.

RESPONSE
It's far too vague and my explanation would take more time than I wish to use, help me by siting an example then I will enlighten you.

It is common knowledge for Christians and Muslims, to claim their holy books are all flawless and perfect without blemish and are the words of the supposedly perfect God who created the universe.
But just a look at the books it shows the skills of mundane men in every inch of it, it depicts the knowledge of ordinary men and claiming such to be from a perfect being ridicules and insults the very intellect of such entity because you would be sure a perfect being would do better.

RESPONSE
You fail to see that certain verses can easily seem contradictory if at face value, any human in attempt to confuse, control, scam or use another would be careful, after all you wouldn't want your readers to entertain an shred of doubt.
It suggests deeper prying and kills any human motive.

One cannot help but imagine how the very mythological historical antiquity of a certain set of people (which makes up almost 60% of the bible) is the word of a God, how?
Or the very misogynistic, chauvinistic, barbaric, blood drenched charges as seen in different verses of both the Quran and the Bible connotes a universal deity of a perfect status, That is also an insult to the very being these books claim to belong to.
And this yet again shows how religions insult and ridicule their own God concepts.

RESPONSE
These people were not selected at random or through sexist motives, they performed feats or atrocities and some can even be traced to our current times.Needless to say not every one could be recorded in the bible.

Another idea is the chosen race brouhaha, A perfect universal God would choose one people specially over others and you still tag it a universal concept? That is clearly the worst form of racism and such favouritism ideology betrays the very concept was invented by the very people it favours and loves more than others even to the extent of taking their side in wars against others (which allegedly he supposed to have created)think about it, this betrays a huge character flaw and a ridicule to the idea of a universal God and is sheer implausible.

RESPONSE
Even in bible ages there were unbelievers, how does God govern people who don't believe in him.His affinity to Israel doesn't betray his purpose, he set them aside and governed them so that when the nations saw how distinct they lived and thrives would in awe seek the Lord that was with them.

Most people in religions often think it is blasphemy to think or ask questions, in fact i have once thought like that. They are afraid to question God and the disturbing characters it is portrayed to have. As a matter of fact many times this fear effectively keeps most locked up in their respective religions because no one wants to be punished by a perfect but again JEALOUS God.

RESPONSE
Christianity doesn't lie in absence of questions,Christians don't know it all we just strive to know more.The bible entreats us to seek so that we may find, those who seek often, know more and in awe of the boundless knowledge the Lord has stored up for those who seek him they increase tremendously in faith.

Many would say: Why do atheist discuss God? It is quite simple, differences in ideologies creates room for healthy discussion, scrutiny of the idea. Atheist might lack belief in the God concepts but the stories are there, we have Hindu books to read brahma stories, bible to read yahweh stories, Quran to read Allah stories and many other deities out there just like we also have J.R.R Tolkien Lord of the rings book to read about Gandalf, one necessarily do not need to BELIEVE Gandalf is real before discussing Gandalf, The discussion is always a call to reason and a charge to allow your mind pour out their questions.

RESPONSE
Keep asking, we all were born blank then we learned.

Another would ask: Atheists are afraid of hell!
Lol. . this one is always funny, if an atheist is afraid of hell there is no way he would still be an atheist, not at all....In fact we see hell exactly the way we see children who thinks fairies are real its a very hilarious idea.

Again, this write up is not an attack on any religion either is it meant to insult any, it only remains a stimulus to independent reason, healthy questions unbound by fear. I hope none sees it as an attack to their religion. Man always have been a curious being, Man is not a robot that downloads every data you input into it, man should be able to weigh and compare, scrutinize and even criticize. . so do not be afraid to allow your questions cultivate.

Nothing in life is to be feared only understood, this is the time to understand more so we may fear less... Because a subtle thought in error can give rise to useful enquiry that can establish truth of great value

Buddha once said: Believe nothing, even if you heard it from me. unless it agrees with your own reason.

This shows you are supposed to subject every idea to judgement of your own independent reason. Let go of the fear because there is nothing to fear when using your own brain and judgment.... if i am to go on with ways religions ridicule their own God, i would write on forever but let me stop where i am now.[/b]

krattoss:
why do u religionists always use the word seek?

Who told u i havnt seeked? Then if why would i be an atheist if my seek had been answered.

Ur god fables captivated the heart of many cos as of then, no one could have explained how they got here, so they heaped it on supernatural being.

Or better still to some selfish reasons which i cant comprehend.

krattoss:
I dont knw why Seun dont always comment on religious section. I knw him to be an atheist from his last comments i read on 2013.



Why the sudden fear? Is it out of discrimination or boycott?. I think this thread is a worthy homepage thread.

Cc, lalasticlala, ishilove.........mooooddddssss

Lol lets hope the Mods will listen. . .

johnydon22:
Lol lets hope the Mods will listen. . .

Eddlad:


I have commented on your post.

I saw it and is that supposed to be a refutation exactly

Because you just kinda added more

johnydon22:
I saw it and is that supposed to be a refutation exactly

Because you just kinda added more

onetrack:
Nice write-up johnydon22. I think that this (showing the absurdity of such a god) is one of the best ways to reach people who may be wondering about their own beliefs. Hard-core religionists are not going to change their minds with this post and I don't think that this is for them.

Another avenue of attack is continuing to show the errors in the so-called holy scriptures. This is actually where it is easier to attack Islam than Christianity because the Christians recognize that human hands were involved in writing the Bible, and so they can dismiss such errors while concentrating on the message. Muslims have to deal with the fact that the Quran is the direct literal word of Allah, and so any error brings down the whole structure--and there are a lot of them. Not that they don't have their own propaganda machine to counter such criticism.

Ultimately, by referring to the idea that this life is a test which is why bad things happen to good people and why god doesn't reveal himself, religionists fall into their own trap. Maybe this life is a test and god wants us to figure out that religions are man-made, and only those who figure it out get the ultimate reward (though the idea of sending religionists to hell would be a repulsive idea which any self-respecting atheist or agnostic or deist would not wish upon them).

And of course continued use of clever memes are good because there are many people who won't read more than two or three sentences and would skip right over much of what you wrote.

cold:
Full frontal,take no prisoners,pull no punches,no holds barred article. It goes right to the heart of the matter and takes the god concept or whatever is left of it to shreds. @Johnydon22, a stellar job you did here.

cold:
Full frontal,take no prisoners,pull no punches,no holds barred article. It goes right to the heart of the matter and takes the god concept or whatever is left of it to shreds. @Johnydon22, a stellar job you did here.

onetrack:
Nice write-up johnydon22. I think that this (showing the absurdity of such a god) is one of the best ways to reach people who may be wondering about their own beliefs. Hard-core religionists are not going to change their minds with this post and I don't think that this is for them.

Another avenue of attack is continuing to show the errors in the so-called holy scriptures. This is actually where it is easier to attack Islam than Christianity because the Christians recognize that human hands were involved in writing the Bible, and so they can dismiss such errors while concentrating on the message. Muslims have to deal with the fact that the Quran is the direct literal word of Allah, and so any error brings down the whole structure--and there are a lot of them. Not that they don't have their own propaganda machine to counter such criticism.

Ultimately, by referring to the idea that this life is a test which is why bad things happen to good people and why god doesn't reveal himself, religionists fall into their own trap. Maybe this life is a test and god wants us to figure out that religions are man-made, and only those who figure it out get the ultimate reward (though the idea of sending religionists to hell would be a repulsive idea which any self-respecting atheist or agnostic or deist would not wish upon them).

And of course continued use of clever memes are good because there are many people who won't read more than two or three sentences and would skip right over much of what you wrote.

Joule30:
See, that's the thing with logic. It seems to open your eyes so much, then diminishing return sets in. Logic is not perfect, but you try to use it to explain perfection. Yesterday Pluto was a planet, to its not. Yesterday Prof. Einstein was correct, some other time he was wrong, today he is partially correct. Logic has begotten children who keep fighting themselves: atheism, realism, idealism, e.t.c. Logic told me light was energy, logic told me light was matter. Logic told me light is matter and energy and that matter is anything that has mass and occupies space. If light is matter, why doesn't gravity bend light? Logic said our gravity is too weak, that a worm hole has enough to bend light. So is a worm hole matter or energy?
Logic said human ancestors were once fishes, then monkeys, then humans. It says that our children might move to the next stage.
If you must know, Yahweh is illogical. Logic is an asset of the human mind. Yahweh is not a logical being. He made you and I like this because He wanted to. You want to ask Him questions? You are free. Don't use someone's mistake to mask your choice. Humans are humans and God is God. You can't expect Him to fit your standards. He gave Adam and Eve a choice, they chose and got the consequences. If you have chosen Logic, remember someday, some other logical being will laugh at you and maybe insult your thinking. Yahweh doesn't need you to believe or disbelieve, He has asked you to choose. Remember little children always want things their way, not necessarily minding what consequences will follow.
You play basketball, that's cool. You love astronomy, awesome. Would be really nice to meet you in person. I love you with the love of Christ.

krattoss:
but is it our fault to doubt his existence, taking into cognissance of all the absurdities and irregularities in religion and his existence,,


IS IT OUR FAULT to find it hard to comprehend a supposed god who created us in his image and likeness?

Or is it the creators fault?

krattoss:
but is it our fault to doubt his existence, taking into cognissance of all the absurdities and irregularities in religion and his existence,,


IS IT OUR FAULT to find it hard to comprehend a supposed god who created us in his image and likeness?

Or is it the creators fault?

adewalker:
. How much I love those who use reason when it comes to religion...now from reason we know anytyn that comes from a vacuum must have a source.,every human have this tendency him then right from birth to belive in a supernatural being...their creator,every human have their belief about this creator,becose they reasoned that all this tall moutains,this cattles,the big shining lamp in the sky,all this thing perfectly made must have been arranged by something...so he rationalises and seeks a way to communicate with this creator,so he can know his purpose for life,we humans generally we easily get scared by things we don't know than things we know,so the human mind is wondering,wat happens to me wen am dead,how did I get here,who all put all this tyns there,he's seeking answers for this,so he believes someone must have put him,he believes this person is watching him from somewhere he can't know,so he looks to sky,and the best rational reason he comes up with is that,this creator must be in the uppermost world,watching him from there...now if there was a creator,he surely must not let man remain like this seeking for knowledge he doesn't have,this creator must tell him wat to do,why he was created...so the creator sends him messenger telling man,wat was required of him,telling him why he was created in the first place...

Joule30:


Fault? Lol. Adolf Hitler killed six million Jews while God watched. These people are the ones whose ancestors walked through the red sea on dry ground. These particular ancestors slaved in Egypt for over 400 years. You think you've seen enough to call God unjust? Was it their fault that He made a promise to Abraham their patriarch?
I just explained to you that God is not bound by logic and you talk about fault.

Luke 20:38 ...He is a God of the living, not of the dead. For all are alive to Him.

adewalker:
. How much I love those who use reason when it comes to religion...now from reason we know anytyn that comes from a vacuum must have a source.,every human have this tendency him then right from birth to belive in a supernatural being...their creator,every human have their belief about this creator,becose they reasoned that all this tall moutains,this cattles,the big shining lamp in the sky,all this thing perfectly made must have been arranged by something...so he rationalises and seeks a way to communicate with this creator,so he can know his purpose for life,we humans generally we easily get scared by things we don't know than things we know,so the human mind is wondering,wat happens to me wen am dead,how did I get here,who all put all this tyns there,he's seeking answers for this,so he believes someone must have put him,he believes this person is watching him from somewhere he can't know,so he looks to sky,and the best rational reason he comes up with is that,this creator must be in the uppermost world,watching him from there...now if there was a creator,he surely must not let man remain like this seeking for knowledge he doesn't have,this creator must tell him wat to do,why he was created...so the creator sends him messenger telling man,wat was required of him,telling him why he was created in the first place...

Joule30:


One of the reasons He is called God is that you don't tell Him what to do. You can as well tell Einstein to pay you a personal visit or tell planet Neptune to move to your backyard, or else(you make it sound like a threat, lol) you won't believe that either exists.

krattoss:
but dont u think u re explaining and describing him by ur own human aspect and logic?


I think if u persist that god is illogic and act in mysterious ways, then u re in no right to explain or described the way he acts whether logical or illogical cos last time i checked, u re a human typing on a keyboard.

Joule30:
" ...surely this
creator MUST abide by this logic,since he's
dealing with logical beings,..."

That's what I talking about. That is logical thinking in play. You are dictating how you want the Almighty to respond to you. We are about 7 billion on this planet. Many more have died long before you were born and you feel so unique, Yahweh should come down to do what you want the way you want it? Hmmm.

Isaiah 55:8
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither
are your ways my ways, saith the Lord."

adewalker:
. Brother am not an atheist,bt since the atheist belives in logic,I have to logically explain the existence of God,and why God punishes human or reward him,that's what's am explaining...and from normal logic,if anyone obeys the law u get a reward,and if u disobey a law u get punished,there will be no sense to tell people not to steal,if there is nt a punishment for stealing,it will make no sense,and so God also,he gave us logic to use,hence if u obey God also,wiil be rewarded and if u disobey him,u will be punished...I was trying to tell the atheist the logical reason why God will punish u or reward u,that's the point am trying to make.....now u see this God,a lot of people claim to be in contact with,the hindus of india say this God always incarnate to become human,so he can show men the right way to live,in this sense they believed buddha to be ninth incarnate of God,they also say ghandi was the 11th incarnate of God,so for any religion that claims to worship any thing as God,the first logical question we should ask those people is "did this person say he was God',if the people say no,then that means there religion is invalid,Cos this person doesn't even know his been worshipped...same thing applies to christianity,they say jesus was the incarnate of God,that God came down to die for their sins,the one that ADam allegedly committed,so we ask them the same logical question "did jesus say he was God,or did he say I will come and die for ur sins",and there's no where in their records where this man say such a thing,so there religion becomes automatically invalid...now we ask the muslims,who do u worship,they say God,we ask them"did this God say u should worship him"they say yes,so we ask another logical question,"have u seen this God before"they say no,so we ask again,"then who told u to worship this God"so they say God always said messengers to mankind telling him wat was required of him,so it is this messenger coming with the same message that told them they should worship only God,that their God is one...that is logical reasoning,so now all we have to do is to ask this muslims,if this God is really the creator,then he must be able to logically tell us why he created us,how he created the world,and wat happens wen we die and why we even die....