dolphinheart:


Haba!, do you still not get it, do you still not understand that if we follow what you said(which incidentally cannot be proved using the bible) it means that there has been a ressurection of those who will go to heaven prior to jesus resurrection ,does this not negate jesus as firstfruit of those to be ressurected?
That it also means that they have already been judged ? If so, who will later be righteous and unrighteous that are ressurected in the last day?
Who will hades and the sea give up later, when they are not there any longer.?
Are you saying there are two judgements, one immediately after death and the other later ?

@paulGrundy, after you addressed that;

paulGrundy: This notion is incorrect because some persons have been raised from the dead before Jesus' ressurection:
Elisha raised the son of the
shunaminite woman 2kings
4:32-55.
Elishas dead bones raised a
man from the dead 2kings
13:20-21.
Jesus himself raised a widows
son luke 7:11-15

dolphinbrain got to dead end, and changed his stance;

dolphinheart: Why is Jesus the first,firstfruit and firstborn of this those who are to be resurrected? The answer lies in the form of those who are to be ressurected . All other resurrections prior to the resurrection of Jesus was done in the flesh/perishable/physical body . But Jesus is the first , followed later by his disciples and followers to be resurrected with a spirit/inperishable body

this is actually the first time i've seen changed his stance in an argument, boy that was tough. never knew you had a deep knowledge of the scriptures. thumbs up.

Yooguyz:


@paulGrundy, after you addressed that;



dolphinbrain got to dead end, and changed his stance;




this is actually the first time i've seen changed his stance in an argument, boy that was tough. never knew you had a deep knowledge of the scriptures. thumbs up.

mtcheew dont mind the guy, he knows what he's doing. he's was probably having a hard laugh while replying my posts.

dolhinheart, captivator, jozzy and co,

i have another scripture for you to twist.

if the saints of old and present have not gone to heaven as you claim, was jesus lieing when he told the theif on the cross that he would be in paradise that day?

luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, [size=20pt]today[/size] you will be with me in paradise."

lemme entertain myself with comedic responses.

paulGrundy:
dolhinheart, captivator, jozzy and co,
if the saints of old and present have not gone to heaven as you claim,

Jesus claim so , not Jessicha . " no MAN has ascended into heaven " john 3:13 plain and direct .

Apostle paul also claim so . "" and yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith , did not obtain the fulfilment of the promise "" Hebrew 11:39 .

Apostle peter also declared about David : " David did not ascend to heaven" Act 2:34 . He made this claim after Jesus had been resurected to heaven !

was jesus lieing when he told the theif on the cross that he would be in paradise that day?
luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, [size=20pt]today[/size] you will be with me in paradise."
Lemme entertain myself with comedic responses.

Put the comma at d right place - and meditate " I have not yet ascend to my Father"

Jessicha:


Jesus claim so , not Jessicha . " no MAN has ascended into heaven " john 3:13 plain and direct .

Apostle paul also claim so . "" and yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith , did not obtain the fulfilment of the promise "" Hebrew 11:39 .

Apostle peter also declared about David : " David did not ascend to heaven" Act 2:34 . He made this claim after Jesus had been resurected to heaven !


Put the comma at d right place - and meditate " I have not yet ascend to my Father"

Paulgrundy come and see oh! They said where the bible put the comma is not correct!

That the comma is supposed to be after "today".

. Ok na, na really comedic responses.

Dolphinheart, captivator entertain us small.

Yooguyz:




Paulgrundy come and see oh! They said where the bible put the comma is not correct!

That the comma is supposed to be after "today".

. Ok na, na really comedic responses.

Dolphinheart, captivator entertain us small.

GBAM ! @ bold You err again , the scripture didnt put the comma , its the work of the translators .

Meditate on this conversation with Mary 3 days after :

" stop clinging to me , for I have NOT YET ascend to the Father . " John 20:17

Jessicha:
GBAM! @bold You err again, the scripture didnt put the comma, its the work of the translators .
Meditate on this conversation with Mary 3 days after :
"stop clinging to me , for I have NOT YET ascend to the Father " John 20:17

Bravo! You're on form.
- the scalp collection must be growing
I am never ceased to be amazed that to some extent and in certain areas,
you come across, as biblically knowing more than most of your opponents do

.........

Yooguyz:


@paulGrundy, after you addressed that;



dolphinbrain got to dead end, and changed his stance;




this is actually the first time i've seen changed his stance in an argument, boy that was tough. never knew you had a deep knowledge of the scriptures. thumbs up.

Hello youguyz( the gay oriented pastor)

I read ur post and wondered how I changed my stance. will like you to reply on that.

The issue was not about ressurection, the issue was about ressurection to heaven . Trying to defend firstfruits with ressurection before kesus is false and bad knowledge about the scriptures. Hence I asked him several questions.

There are several questions posed to paulgrundy in my post which you quoted.
The one about being ressurected with inperishable body was not answered by him.
You defend him, can you help him answer those questions ?

The questions are :
1.That it also means that they
have already been judged ?
2.If so, who will later be righteous and unrighteous that are ressurected in the last day?
3. Who will hades and the sea
give up later, when they are
not there any longer.?
4.Are you saying there are two
judgements, one immediately
after death and the other
later ?


Youguyz, Jesus is the first to be resurrected with an in perishable body.
All others ressurected before jesus, died !.
Non who died and where ressurected before jesus came is said to have ascended to heaven after they where resurrected.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

The facts above are from the bible . I did not suggest them.

So the manner at which jesus was ressurected is different from the temporary ressurection of those before him , that is why the bible said jesus is the first , firstborn, firstfruit of those to be ressurected.
And other faithful disciples of his hope to be ressurected in such manner so as to also have a divine nature, an imortal being.

paulGrundy:


mtcheew dont mind the guy, he knows what he's doing. he's was probably having a hard laugh while replying my posts.

I asked you several questions which I numbered . You have refused to answer them. If you know the truth , answer those questions with scriptural proof.

Jessicha:

GBAM ! @ bold You err again , the scripture didnt put the comma , its the work of the translators

ALL TRANSLATIONS except nwt (jehova witness bible) placed their comma before "today". If you think the translators were wrong, then prove that they are wrong if not JW's are vendoring that scripture to promote their preconcieved ideology. Pls don't quote cut and join, unrelated, trumped up scriptures to justify the manipulation of that scripture.

dolphinheart:
.........
Hello youguyz ( the gay oriented pastor)


I read ur post and wondered how I changed my stance. will like you to reply on that.

The issue was not about ressurection, the issue was about ressurection to heaven . Trying to defend firstfruits with ressurection before kesus is false and bad knowledge about the scriptures. Hence I asked him severa

There are several questions posed to paulgrundy in my post which you quoted.
The one about being ressurected with inperishable body was not answered by him.
You defend him, can you help him answer those questions ?

The questions are :
1.That it also means that they
Have already been judged ?
2.If so, who will later be righteous and unrighteous that are ressurected in the last day?
3. Who will hades and the sea
give up later, when they are
not there any longer.?

Gud deepthought questions that they cant answer ! Meanwhile , do you mean the underlined ?

paulGrundy:
dolhinheart, captivator, jozzy and co,

i have another scripture for you to twist.

if the saints of old and present have not gone to heaven as you claim, was jesus lieing when he told the theif on the cross that he would be in paradise that day?

luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, [size=20pt]today[/size] you will be with me in paradise."

lemme entertain myself with comedic responses.

You have refused to answer questions posed to you.
You have refused to explain bible scriptures read out to you.
You keep on bringing different bibles verses while refusing to explain previous verses in which you found urself hooked and ur views contradictory.

Now you bring on this verse, thinking it will save you. Readers are not gullible, they follow the thread, they know who views are like a house made of cards. Ill encourage you to address the numerous questions you have been asked.

Read this culled from a website)
Most Bible versions translate
Christ's words to the convicted
criminal being crucified with Him similar to the New King James Version: “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise” (Luke 23:43). Many people think Jesus assured the man he would go to heaven with
Him that very day. But is this
really what He meant?

Although it is a strong supporting factor, the fundamental understanding of this passage does not rest solely on the misplacement of a comma in English translations. Certainly the true meaning would be better
understood if the comma were
correctly placed after the word
today . However, other rules of
sound Bible study also help us to understand Luke 23:43.

We need to first understand that original texts of the Bible (Greek for the New Testament and Hebrew and some Aramaic for the Old Testament) used
no punctuation.

As Dr. E.W. Bullinger explains in The Companion Bible: “None of our modern marks of punctuation are found [in Bible texts] until the ninth century . . . The punctuation
of all modern editions of the
Greek text, and of all versions
made from it, rests entirely on
human authority, and has no
weight whatever in determining or even influencing the interpretation of a single passage” (1990, Appendix 94, p. 136, emphasis in original).

In most cases translators and
publishers of the Bible have done an admirable job using
punctuation to clarify the
meaning of the Scriptures, but
this is one case where their
doctrinal bias has regrettably
obscured the meaning of Christ's words. By placing a comma before “today” in Christ's statement to the dying man rather than after it, they have Jesus saying something He never intended.

We know this because the Bible clearly says Jesus Himself did not go to paradise or heaven on the day He died! Instead He died and was buried in the grave.

Notice the apostle Paul's clear
statement in 1 Corinthians
15:3-4: “For I delivered to you
first of all that which I also
received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the
Scriptures” (emphasis
added throughout).

Notice what Christ told Mary
soon after He had been
resurrected: “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father” ( John 20:17). A full three days after His death, Jesus Himself clearly said that He had not yet ascended to heaven!
Jesus had earlier plainly said
that He would lay in the grave for three days and three nights
( Matthew 12:40). The Scriptures nowhere say that His body was buried but His soul went elsewhere. Jesus died and was buried. He went only to the grave. Therefore the dying criminal could not have been with Jesus in heaven that day, because Jesus Himself did not go there then.

If Jesus was not telling the man he would be in heaven or
paradise on that day, what was
He telling him?

A fundamental principle for
sound Bible study is to carefully check the context. Notice thespecific wording of the man's request: “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom” (Luke 23:42). Notice that the thief expressed no expectation of immediately going to heaven with Jesus at the moment they died.

You urself , paulgrundy said jesus went to hell.

Ur contradictions are mounting with the scriptures you urself posted , yet ur aim is to entertain urself and not to face the truth.

Jessicha:


Gud deepthought questions that they cant answer ! Meanwhile , do you mean the underlined ?

Yep, I do mean the bold.
All these post they are posting is an attempt to take one away from the questions asked. They did not realise that they will hook themselves further with their scripture quotes.

Imagine, they both want to be entertained, or probably its just one person that wants to be entertained on two different monikers.
Paulgrundy had at one time posted he was paul grundy and he owns the website. Only for him to start speaking pidgin.

He put a picture of someone else(an oyinbo ) with a child that is not his. putting someone else picture in ur moniker shows you have no character .

He also will not tell you his religious affliation or church he attends.


Modified: I've given then an explanation, its now left for them to proove that jesus went to heaven that day!. Just wait for there answer on these and compare it to what paulgrundy has been saying since.

dolphinheart:
.........

Hello youguyz( the gay oriented pastor)

Jessicha:
Gud deepthought questions that they cant answer ! Meanwhile, do you mean the underlined?

dolphinheart:
Yep, I do mean the bold.
All these post they are posting is an attempt to take one away from the questions asked. They did not realise that they will hook themselves further with their scripture quotes.

Imagine, they both want to be entertained, or probably its just one person that wants to be entertained on two different monikers.
Paulgrundy had at one time posted he was paul grundy and he owns the website. Only for him to start speaking pidgin.

He put a picture of someone else(an oyinbo ) with a child that is not his. putting someone else picture in ur moniker shows you have no character .

He also will not tell you his religious affliation or church he attends.

dolphinheart I still have your hand, though you slipped a bit in my hands,
the ad hominem on paulGrundy/Yooguyz was unnecessary & uncalled for
You shouldnt have needed to stoop so low to pick up such ammunition to score cheap points
or tried to temporarily disorient paulGrundy/Yooguyz senses with such cheap distractive tactics
Stick to the theme of the thread and leave individuals character or sexual orientation out of it

MuttleyLaff:


dolphinheart I still have your hand, though you slipped a bit in my hands,
the ad hominem on paulGrundy was unnecessary & uncalled for
You shouldnt have needed to stoop so low to pick up such ammunition to score cheap points
or tried to temporarily disorient paulGrundy senses with such cheap distractive tactics
Stick to the theme of the thread and leave individuals character or sexual orientation out of it

I apologise , to paulgrundy, youguyz, muttleylaff and everyone else. I'm totally sorry for that post. It was unnessssary. I admit , I stooped low .

@yooguyz na really dead end. I wonder why it took dolphinheart/muttylaff so long to pour in the false accusations and equate our monikers as one, as he always does. I was expecting it, its no suprise.

@dolphinheart/muttylaff all that drama was unnecessary, I created my signature just because of you.

paulGrundy:
dolhinheart, captivator, jozzy and co,

i have another scripture for you to twist.

if the saints of old and present have not gone to heaven as you claim, was jesus lieing when he told the theif on the cross that he would be in paradise that day?

luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, [size=20pt]today[/size] you will be with me in paradise."

lemme entertain myself with comedic responses.

Dude stop throwing scriptures like this haba! You first dis-orient the guy, you con turn am to English proffesor, omo later the guy had double personality syndrome.

Maybe the next one he will run mad.

Jozzy4:


BIG Lie , Am a regular subsriber of the watchtower and Awake magazine , its bible based and it encourage independent thinking. Dont be suprised that many pastors read them too .

No, it is not a BIG Lie that those who call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses, but are not, and do lie, are antichrists
For just one thing, they change in the Bible where it is said: "the Word (Jesus Christ) is God"
to: "the Word (Jesus Christ) is "a god"
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God(theos), and the Word was God(theos).


1Jn_2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
2Jn_1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

John said the Word is God
antichrist jw deny the Son, and hath not the Father also.

dolphinheart:


I apologise , to paulgrundy, youguyz, muttleylaff and everyone else. I'm totally sorry for that post. It was unnessssary. I admit , I stooped low .

Bull, you are happy you did, you have been demonizing him often of this forum with other jw's joining in
you and other jw's love it
look how Jessicha jumped in

Jessicha:

Gud deepthought questions that they cant answer ! Meanwhile, do you mean the underlined? shocked

Those who call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses, but are not, and do lie, are self righteous pharacee hypocrites.

.

MuttleyLaff:
Bravo! You're on form.
- the scalp collection must be growing
I am never ceased to be amazed that to some extent and in certain areas,
you come across, as biblically knowing more than most of your opponents do

God own such honour not a dust like me .

Q- if the saints of old and present have not gone to heaven as you claim, was Jesus lieing when he told the theif on the cross that he would be in paradise that day?

luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Answer: there is no justification whatsoever for alterations or insertions in the bible, if the original greek text wasn't punctuated or spaced, then its only wise not to use punctuation as basis to justify a doctrine. This calls to question the disrespect sects have for the bible.
The funny thing about those promoting "punctuated interpretation" is that they teach that salvation is gotten through both faith and works. But the theif on the cross did not “work out his salvation“ he only had faith. Hence pointing out a flaw and contradicting a very fundamental doctrine of theirs. Which ever way the comma is placed still contradicts it anyway.

The bible talks about more than one heaven. Apostle paul talked about a 3rd heaven:

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago – whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows – such a one was caught up in the third heaven. And I know such a man – whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows – how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.” (II Corinthians 12:2-4).

Revelation talked about a first heaven.
Revelation 21:1 - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Gen 1;1, 2:1 talked about heaven in plural form. Hence we know there are 3 heavens.

In luke 16 when Jesus talked about Lazarus and the richman, he made mention of Abrahams bosom- which greek and hebrew is translated place of bliss- the same meaning with paradise. Hence there are strong indictations he went there. How can else can his absence from the tomb be explained on the first day of the week mary came there. Jesus obviously was with the right hand theif in abrahams bosom/paradise/second heaven.

paulGrundy
Q- if the saints of old and present have not gone to
Heaven as you claim,

Correction: as Jesus Claim - Joh 3:13

was Jesus lieing when he told the
theif on the cross that he would be in paradise that day?
luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be
with me in paradise."
Answer: there is no justification whatsoever for
alterations or insertions in the bible, if the original greek
text wasn't punctuated or spaced, then its only wise not
To use punctuation as basis to justify a doctrine. This
calls to question the disrespect sects have for the bible.
The funny thing about those promoting "punctuated
interpretation" is that they teach that salvation is gotten
through both faith and works. But the theif on the cross
did not “work out his salvation“ he only had faith. Hence
pointing out a flaw and contradicting a very fundamental
doctrine of theirs. Which ever way the comma is placed
still contradicts it anyway.
The bible talks about more than one heaven. Apostle
paul talked about a 3rd heaven:
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago –
whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the
body I do not know, God knows – such a one was
caught up in the third heaven. And I know such a man –
whether in the body or out of the body I do not know,
God knows – how he was caught up into Paradise and
Heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a
Man to utter.” (II Corinthians 12:2-4).
Revelation talked about a first heaven.
Revelation 21:1 - And I saw a new heaven and a new
Earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed
Away; and there was no more sea.
Gen 1;1, 2:1 talked about heaven in plural form. Hence
we know there are 3 heavens.
In luke 16 when Jesus talked about Lazarus and the
Richman, he made mention of Abrahams bosom- which
Greek and hebrew is translated place of bliss- the same
meaning with paradise.
Hence there are strong
indictations he went there. How can else can his
absence from the tomb be explained on the first day of
the week mary came there. Jesus obviously was with the
right hand theif in abrahams bosom/paradise/second
Heaven.

@ green ... Its a " Vision" 2Cor 12:1

__________
@ purple ... Thats a lie , Abraham's bossom simply means Abrahams chest . Or are you telling us that Hagar went to paradise

" at this Sarai said to Abram : ' the injury done to me is your fault , I was the one who put my servant in YOUR [Abraham] BOSSOM'" Gen 16:5 .

Sarah's servant is in paradise ryt ?
...............

@ bold .... Another lie , show me one scripture that said Jesus went to Abraham bossom/paradise/second heaven , when he died ? Or shut your mouth forever .

Jessicha:
Correction: as Jesus Claim - Joh 3:13

Jessicha:
@green ... Its a " Vision" 2 Cor 12:1

... and that third heaven, he Paul, saw isnt Abraham's bosom or Paradise. He saw the real McCoy not paradise

Jessicha:
@ purple ... Thats a lie , Abraham's bossom simply means Abrahams chest.

Erm, it isnt a lie actually. Bosom in the Bible has more meanings than literal chest

Jessicha:
Or are you telling us that Hagar went to paradise

No, as because in that particular context, she wasnt in Paradise
she was in that particular instance given to be personally and intimately on Abraham's side

Jessicha:
" at this Sarai said to Abram:
' the injury done to me is your fault, I was the one who put my servant in YOUR [Abraham] BOSSOM'"
- Gen 16:5 .

Sarah's servant is in paradise ryt ?

As shared above, no, she in this instance, isnt or wasnt in paradise because she, Hagar was placed to be on Abraham's side by Sarah or ordered by Sarah to go on Abraham's side

Jessicha:
@ bold .... Another lie , show me one scripture that said Jesus went to Abraham bossom/paradise/second heaven, when he died ?

Jesus told his disciples about a side in Sheol, which is the side Abraham is in (i.e. Abraham's bossom)

In the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, the poor man was taken by the Angels to Abraham's side or part of Sheol (i.e. aka Paradise)
He wasnt taken to the Rich man's side or part of Sheol (i.e. aka Hades)
- Sheol has two parts: Hades where the Rich man was & Paradise or Abraham's side or Abraham's bosom, where Abraham and the Poor man was

Jessicha:
... Or shut your mouth forever

Coolu temper ooo
Now sheathe the sword and stop scaring the fair ladies with shut the mouth forever ultimatum else learning opportunities will be lost

MuttleyLaff:


... and that third heaven, he Paul, saw isnt Abraham's bosom or Paradise. He saw the real McCoy not paradise

Erm, it isnt a lie actually. []Bosom in the Bible has more meanings than literal chest[/b

No, as because in that particular context, she wasnt in Paradise
she was in that particular instance given to be personally and intimately on Abraham's side

As shared above, no, she in this instance, isnt or wasnt in paradise because she, Hagar was placed to be on Abraham's side by Sarah or ordered by Sarah to go on Abraham's side

Jesus told his disciples about a side in Sheol, which is the side Abraham is in (i.e. Abraham's bossom)

In the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, the poor man was taken by the Angels to Abraham's side or part of Sheol (i.e. aka Paradise)
He wasnt taken to the Rich man's side or part of Sheol (i.e. aka Hades)

- Sheol has two parts: Hades where the Rich man was & Paradise or Abraham's side or Abraham's bosom, where Abraham and the Poor man was

Coolu temper ooo
Now sheathe the sword and stop scaring the fair ladies with shut the mouth forever ultimatum else learning opportunities will be lost

Relax , hades is a part of sheol ?? OMG @ bold .

--- what is Hades ?

Jessicha:
Relax, hades is a part of sheol?? shocked OMG @ bold

Am relaxed,
and as cool as a cucumber whilst sipping my mango daiquiri mix

If you would keep at bay all your English and Naija misconceptions about what Sheol is
- this because they are based on faulty thinking about Sheol's composition or faulty understanding of what Sheol really is
Also if you accept that the Bible is Jewish/Aramaic in origin
and that Jesus was a Jew, who preached and taught in Jewish/Aramaic
then hearing that Hades is part of Sheol shouldnt shock, talkess of rattle you

This is talking of Sheol from a Jewish point of view, and not from an English, a Naija or any others' point of view
Sheol is a Jewish concept through and through, nothing more, nothing less. Capisce

Jessicha:
--- what is Hades?

what is Hades? - Here we go again

Hades is the abode of the dead and it is located in Sheol
- it's like saying Lagos is in Naija

Hell which has become synonymous with Hades, is neither Hebrew or Greek in origin

Sheol is, what you'll find in the original Hebrew text for any word for Hell
In other words, Hades or Hell was the Greek substitution for the part of Sheol where the Rich man is from the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus

As a matter of fact, Hell actually finds it roots in the classic Greek mythology, Hades

where Hades interestingly and actually, was the ancient Greek god of the underworld.
This god's name (i.e. Hades) later turned to mean the place or abode of the dead, which actually is exactly what Sheol is, what is signifies or represents.

Talking about Gehenna, well it is a valley, a valley in Jerusalem, used as a dumping refuse site and so was used by Jesus to depict the Lake of fire
(i.e. it is a place of destruction, as in, via incineration, a place for destroying things)

As earlier mentioned, Gehenna was the incinerating refuse dump in Jerusalem
Hades however, historically and originally is the name of a Greek god until it got turned to meaning the place or abode of the dead
It later got interchanged with hell, which is from a German word root
It was bible translators who were substituing the original Hebrew word Sheol (i.e. the part where the dead of the Rich man sort are), with Greek counterparts Hades/Hell that made hell stick with us today

I can draw you further in with unadulterated info on Sheol,
but these small and sliced up bits, so far should suffice
else you'll throw up or choke on the chunkier others

Day after day my faith in christianity is contested like a raging wildfire.

So many fallacies,misconceptions,inexplicable theories and illogical portions of the bible that christian fanatics spew out of their mouth.

I just believe the human needs something to belive in,a sense of spirituality,hence the blind followership of religion here in Nigeria.

MuttleyLaff:


... and that third heaven, he Paul, saw isnt Abraham's bosom or Paradise. He saw the real McCoy not paradise

Erm, it isnt a lie actually. Bosom in the Bible has more meanings than literal chest

No, as because in that particular context, she wasnt in Paradise
she was in that particular instance given to be personally and intimately on Abraham's side

As shared above, no, she in this instance, isnt or wasnt in paradise because she, Hagar was placed to be on Abraham's side by Sarah or ordered by Sarah to go on Abraham's side

Jesus told his disciples about a side in Sheol, which is the side Abraham is in (i.e. Abraham's bossom)

In the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, the poor man was taken by the Angels to Abraham's side or part of Sheol (i.e. aka Paradise)
He wasnt taken to the Rich man's side or part of Sheol (i.e. aka Hades)
- Sheol has two parts: Hades where the Rich man was & Paradise or Abraham's side or Abraham's bosom, where Abraham and the Poor man was

Coolu temper ooo
Now sheathe the sword and stop scaring the fair ladies with shut the mouth forever ultimatum else learning opportunities will be lost

Hades and Sheol simply means, grave.
Read: Gen 42:38b, Psalm 89:48, and 1 Cor 15:55.

EnigmAries:
Hades and Sheol simply means, grave.
Read: Gen 42:38b, Psalm 89:48/

Yes, simply grave
but not grave in the sense of a hole dug in the ground to receive a coffin or corpse
There is more to Sheol than ordinarily just a 6-feet hole in the ground
but at an elementary or entry level, simply referring Sheol as grave could do

EnigmAries:
and 1 Cor 15:55.

Not sure how 1 Cor 15:55 fits into all this

@paulgrundy

Q- if the saints of old and present have not gone to heaven as you claim, was Jesus lieing when he told the theif on the cross that he
would be in paradise that day?
luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

It would have been good if you have answered the questions as asked instead of fomulating one you think you can answer.
The Answers to those questions would have gone a long way in answering what happens to man when he dies and after he dies.
your question is flawed cus its based on what you think the verse you quoted says. Stop fomulating questions for urself and answer the ones others asked you.

Answer: there is no justification
whatsoever for alterations or
insertions in the bible, if the
original greek text wasn't
punctuated or spaced, then its
only wise not to use punctuation as basis to justify a doctrine. This calls to question the disrespect
sects have for the bible.
The funny thing about those
promoting "punctuated
interpretation" is that they teach that salvation is gotten through both faith and works. But the theif on the cross did not “work out his salvation“ he only had faith.
Hence pointing out a flaw and
contradicting a very fundamental doctrine of theirs. Which ever way the comma is placed still contradicts it anyway.

1. Did you read ur statement above on punctuation.?
Their is no comma in the Greek text of the bible verse you quoted, but the translation you quoted from did put "comma" in that verse. Therefore if you accuse someone of putting "comma" in a verse, can you not also be accused of putting comma in that verse.
You stated : "if the original greek text wasn't punctuated or spaced, then its only wise not to use punctuation as basis to justify a doctrine."

I will ask you these question, if you like don't answer, but others can draw conclusions from examining the question below :
What is the basis for putting comma before the word "today" as found in ur own translation. Remember, the comma is not in the original text. So why is the comma there if it is not there due to doctrinal beliefs. What grammatical proof do you have.

2. You err when you use ur own understanding to prove that some beliefs are contradictory. If I where you I would first Ask for their understanding of that verse , check if there explanations are true or not before using my own view to state that they where wrong.

3. Some vital question arises from these ur statement: "But the theif on the cross did not “work out his salvation“ he only had faith." , when we look at the thief, his words and jesus reply and what it really means.
The questions are:
(A). did the thief repent?

(B). Was the thief born again ?
(remember jesus explanation of born again to nicodemus)

(C)Do or can you gain salvation by faith alone.?

(D)Is there any example in the scriptures of anyone who had gained imortality or evalasting life just by faith alone?

(E)What does the bible mean when it said the following "faith without works is dead"
James 2: 14-20: What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if
someone claims to have faith
but has no deeds? Can such
faith save them? 15 Suppose a
brother or a sister is without
clothes and daily food. 16 If
one of you says to them, “Go
in peace; keep warm and well
fed,” but does nothing about
their physical needs, what
good is it? 17 In the same way,
faith by itself, if it is not
accompanied by action, is
dead.
18 But someone will say,
“You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without
deeds, and I will show you my
faith by my deeds. 19 You
believe that there is one God.
Good! Even the demons
believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish person, do
you want evidence that faith
without deeds is useless ?
(some translations use "action" good works".

(F) what happens to those who did not have the oppurtunity to do the will of God because they do not know the will they are to do. They do not know gods commands.

the answers to these questions by you will let others know if what you are saying is true.

Remember Matt 12:50 "whoever does the will of my father". "Does" an action word.

The bible talks about more than one heaven. Apostle paul talked about a 3rd heaven:
I know a man in Christ who
fourteen years ago – whether in the body I do not know, or
whether out of the body I do not know, God knows – such a one was caught up in the third
heaven. And I know such a man – whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows – how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.” (II Corinthians 12:2-4).

You did not give explanation on the important parts of the verses you quoted above.

Let's say there are different heavens,
(G)is paradise located in the third heaven or in all the heavens.?
(H)Now if paradise is located in all the heavens, which of the heavens did enoch go to , the first, second or third ?pls add scripture to surpport ur views.

(I) If paradise is located in the third heaven, those in the third heaven, are they resurrected, pls add scriptural proof ?

(J) was it the third heaven that jesus ascended to?

(K) is that paradise that paul made mention of, in heaven where God and other spirit creatures reside?

Your refusal to answer these questions show you have been trying to feed us with false beliefs. Beliefs that cannot stand when being questioned.

It is one thing to quote and mumble scriptures together , it is another thing to use those scriptures to answer questions, expecially when those questions are based on ur views.

You, seeing that you can't explain the scriptures you quoted before, now try to split the heavens into three parts and choose one as the heaven you are trying to refer to.
You do this without explaining where or what that heaven is.
You know that doing so will affect ur explanation of where enoch and faithful men of old went to when they died.

Revelation talked about a first heaven.
Revelation 21:1 - And I saw a
new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

When quoting the scriptures, one needs to add explanation or personal understanding of what the scriptures is saying. The words in the scriptures are not there for us to formulate a theory. They are there for us to understand Gods purpose, ways ,directive and commands.
Tell us what the new heaven and new earth is?. Does it in anyway have a link to ressurection and where we go when we die?

Tell us, what is the first heaven and first earth. If you say there are other heavens because there is a first heaven, can we rightly say there are other earths cus there is a first earth and those earths where 3 in number.

Furthermore, which of the 3 heavens is the new heaven. Or is it a fourth one?

Gen 1;1, 2:1 talked about heaven in plural form. Hence we know there are 3 heavens.

So there are 3 heavens, which is the first ,second and third,? what are they and how do people go to each when they die?.
Do they go to the whole 3 , or go to only one. Pls add scripture to proof these o.

In luke 16 when Jesus talked about Lazarus and the richman, he made mention of Abrahams bosom- which greek and hebrew is translated place of bliss- the same meaning with paradise.
Hence there are strong
indictations he went there. How can else can his absence from the tomb be explained on the first day of the week mary came there. Jesus obviously was with the right hand theif in abrahams bosom/paradise/second heaven.

So the paradise is the second heaven now, its no longer the third heaven as you claim apostle paul said.continu!.


Let's even follow ur explanation , did those who go to abrahams bossom die before going there? The answer is yes ! . Why do you then find it hard to accept what paul said in Hebrews, that all the faithful ones of old died! Including enoch. For if you claim they went to abraham bossom, they must die before going there.

Pls show us how "abrahams bossom is translated to "place of bliss" in Greek and hebrew.
Pls tell us , what the Greek and hebrew word for "abraham bossom is" so that we can translate it with you.

The word found in the Greek
text for "bosom" is kolpos ,
meaning "lap" "bay".[1] This
relates to the Second Temple
period practice of reclining and
eating meals in proximity to
other guests, the closest of
whom physically was said to lie on the bosom (chest) of the
host.

The kolpos (Greek: κόλποις
κόλπον κόλπῳ, a gulf, bay or
creek) is the blousing[1] of a
peplos, chiton or tunic in
Ancient Greek clothing,
whereby excess length of the
material hangs folded over a
zone (a narrow girdle).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolpos

kolpos: the bosom
Original Word: κόλπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun,
Masculine
Transliteration: kolpos
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-pos)
Short Definition: bosom,
bosom of a garment, a bay,
gulf
Definition: (a) sing. and plur:
bosom; (sinus) the
overhanging fold of the
garment used as a pocket, (b)
a bay, gulf.

HELPS Word-studies
2859 kólpos – properly, the
upper part of the chest where
a garment naturally folded to
form a "pocket" – called the
"bosom," the position
synonymous with intimacy
(union).

http://biblehub.com/greek/2859.htm.

Note : some translation did not say "abrahams bossom",they said "abrahams side", "bossom of abraham" , "to be with abraham". Therefore ur attempt to say "abrahams bosom " means "place of bliss" is wrong




Paradise:
Strong's Concordance
paradeisos: a park, a
garden, a paradise
Original Word: παράδεισος,
ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun,
Masculine
Transliteration: paradeisos
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ad'-i-
sos)
Short Definition: Paradise
Definition: Paradise.
HELPS Word-studies
3857 parádeisos – an ancient
Persian word meaning
"enclosure, garden, park.

http://biblehub.com/greek/3857.htm

You can see that ur attempt to link paradise, abrahams bosom and second or third heaven(depending on which one you finally arrive at) is false, wrong and full of holes.

You said jesus went to hell.
You said enoch and old saints went to heaven .
Where or what is the heaven that enoch went to?. Do you die before you go to that heaven.?
Are you ressurected before you go to that heaven?
Are you saying that heaven is in hell?

You urself keep showing that ur beliefs are wrong . Look at what you have been saying since and see if they are in harmony. And pls when posting , dnt use ur speculations as facts

@dolphinheart @paulgrundy
The bottom half of the above post is so muddled up one doesnt even know anymore who actually said what or didnt say what

MuttleyLaff:
@dolphinheart @paulgrundy
The bottom half of the above post is so muddled up one doesnt even know anymore who actually said what or didnt say what

Your response to Jessicha is a pure trash , why is it that those who died in the sea never go to sheol/hades ?