Syncan:



hahahahaha, Without answering any of the questions he now says I "have a lot to learn"...He suddenly leaves the scriptures that he said I don't read, which he should teach me, to talk about "art worship as directed by the spirit". Then he assumes that I'm in Nigeria where ("there are not much spirit filled churches" ), while insinuating that he is in U.S, Lol. Finally he gives me an advice to be free from religion and doctrines of men. Hahahahahaha, arrogance in Ignorance!

Shallom dear, Shallom.

U JOKE TOO MUCH

KingEbukasBlog:


Have the Catholics now shifted mediation and intercession from Mary to the Angels ?

Its my first time hearing that angels intercede for man though .

Ive known these wonderful beings to be God's messengers and to protect man against different kinds of evil

Psalm 91:11-12

11 For He shall give His angels charge over you,
To keep you in all your ways.
12 In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.

Luke 4:10

10 For it is written:

‘He shall give His angels charge over you,
To keep you,’

Catholics have shifted nothing, they have always held that all who are in Christ can interceed, both d saints and angels in heaven, d saints on earth, they all interceed.

Ubenedictus:
Catholics have shifted nothing, they have always held that all who are in Christ can interceed, [size=16pt]both d saints and angels in heaven, d saints on earth, they all interceed.[/size]

Please provide bible verses for this claim

[quote author=ayoku777 post=41158343]

The intercessory role of angels under the old covenant was in their capacity as the mediators (disposers and ordainers) of that covenant.

Acts 7v53 - Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Gal 3v19 -Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

But according to the new testament epistles, Jesus is now the only one mediator between God and man

1Tim 2v5 -For there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

To mediate between God and men, is to stand in the gap before God on behalf of men in whatever capacity (advocate, intercessor, righteousness).[\QUOTE] IT SEEM IN UR ZEAL TO TEACH D UNIQUE MEDIATORSHIP OF JESUS U HAVE UNKNOWINGLY DENIED THAT CHRISTIANS ARE INTERCESSORS.

AYOKU77 it seem u have defined 'intercession' so narrowly so as to prove that Jesus is sole mediator. somehow u forgot that it will be biblically unsound to narrow down the definition since xtains are intercessors too.

KingEbukasBlog:


Please provide bible verses for this claim

I didnt make a claim that needs a bible verse. you said it seems catholics shifted from mary to angels, i simply noted that no shifting was done, catholic have always held dat d angel and saints may interceed. i simply corrected ur misunderstanding of catholic beliefs.

Ubenedictus:
I didnt make a claim that needs a bible verse. you said it seems catholics shifted from mary to angels, i simply noted that no shifting was done, catholic have always held dat d angel and saints may interceed. i simply corrected ur misunderstanding of catholic beliefs.

Lol ... it was a joke

Ubenedictus:
AYOKU77 it seem u have defined 'intercession' so narrowly so as to prove that Jesus is sole mediator. somehow u forgot that it will be biblically unsound to narrow down the definition since xtains are intercessors too.

I never denied a human being can pray for another human. If you have read the posts you will see all the scriptures I used to show that saints on earth can pray for eachother

Ephesians 6v18 - Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

2Cor 1v11 - Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.

Phillipians 1v19 -For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

But do we appear before the presence of God in heaven to do the intercession? Because that is what the mediator of the new covenant does.

The mediator of the covenant appears before God in heaven to behold the face of God on behalf of men.

The way angels did under the old covenant, according to Jesus;

Matthew 18v10 -Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

And the way Jesus now does under the new covenant.

Hebrews 9v24 -For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God FOR US:

No human being, angel or heavenly saint appears before the presence of God in heaven to pray, behold the face of God or mediate in whatever capacity for any man under the new covenant -EXCEPT JESUS CHRIST.

But the epistles did admonish saints on earth to interceed for one another, not saints in heaven. Even so, that doesn't make us mediators of the covenant. And we don't appear in God's presence for anyone.

Shalom.

ayoku777:


Nawa o! So Jesus is the angel of the Lord that said "O Lord of hosts, How long..."?

Yessir, that is Jesus interceding.
One thing you need to learn is that in the OT, angel means more than just that class of beings

Study closely who is this angel who appeared to Hagar. She called Him God
Genesis 16:13 (KJV)
And she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

Study closely the dialogue at the burning bush and tell me whether that was not YHWH Himself yet He is referred to as an angel.
Exodus 3:2-4 (KJV)
And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I

And you think the angels of the kids beholding the face of God doesn't mean they are beholding it on behalf of the children?

I don't make unnecessary and unwarranted wild inferences. All the angels in Revelation before the throne, on whose behalf are they be holding the face of God?

How exactly do you interprete scripture?

By dropping all presumptions and allowing scriptures to speak to me. This is exegesis. You on the other hand are reading your own ideas INTO the text. They call this Eisegesis.

I keep showing you scriptures of where looking unto God means for help and deliverance, and you say it doesn't mean the angels were beseeching God.

This is because we have countless accounts of angels appearing before God and they were not seeking for deliverance from nothing! Brings to mind Job and the sons of God appearing before the LORD.

To mediate means to appear before the presence of God on behalf of a person or a place.

And to intercede is to pray to God on behalf of somebody else something you have yet to show no angel doing

And that is what the angels do when they behold the face of the Father on behalf of the kids.

No sir, that is what you THINK

And that is what the angel that interceeded for Jerusalem and Judah in Zechariah did.

This is Jesus Christ not an angelic being

I don't know how you came up with the fact that Jesus was the angel praying there.

Because of John 17

I can endure ignorance, but not arrogance. Twisting God's word over what is so obvious.

I can endure ignorance and arrogance but not obtuseness, and Eisegesis

In the case of the angel that jesus sent to John, the angel was sent on an errand as a ministering spirit. That doesn't mean the angel appears before God's presence on behalf of John or any person, which is what mediation means.

Please demonstrate from OT how the Law was received by 'disposition of angels' as per Acts 7:3. Did the angels pray to Gof to deliver the Law to Moses? You are funny. Disposition means AGENCY and WITNESS and not MEDIATION not INTERCESSION. And a perfect example of this is the book of Revelation.

They don't do that anymore, only Jesus does now.

Wrong. They have never mediated nothing.

That angels worship before God doesn't mean they appear before Him on behalf of any person or any place anymore. They are not worthy of that role anymore under the new covenant.

But it means appearing before God does not mean seeking help or deliverance from trouble. You claim that the angels of the kids appear before God on behalf of the kids praying that the kids be kept away from trouble. That is Ayoku777 embellishment!

Disagree all you want, you can't give this verses another meaning other than the obvious.

To behold the face of the Father is to behold it for help and deliverance. And the angel in Zechariah prayed to God for mercy over Jerusalem and Judah. And please, please, that angel is not Jesus.

This angel is Jesus Christ just as the angel at the burning bush is God! This is a christophany

The scriptures cannot be broken. Let the word of God be true. Remove sentiments from its interpretation.

Shalom!

Very true, may the fiction scales fall off your eyes in Jesus name!

ayoku777:


I never denied a human being can pray for another human. If you have read the posts you will see all the scriptures I used to show that saints on earth can pray for eachother

Ephesians 6v18 - Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

2Cor 1v11 - Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.

Phillipians 1v19 -For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

But do we appear before the presence of God in heaven to do the intercession? Because that is what the mediator of the new covenant does.

The mediator of the covenant appears before God in heaven to behold the face of God on behalf of men.

The way angels did under the old covenant, according to Jesus;

Matthew 18v10 -Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

And the way Jesus now does under the new covenant.

Hebrews 9v24 -For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God FOR US:

No human being, angel or heavenly saint appears before the presence of God in heaven to pray, behold the face of God or mediate in whatever capacity for any man under the new covenant -EXCEPT JESUS CHRIST.

But the epistles did admonish saints on earth to interceed for one another, not saints in heaven. Even so, that doesn't make us mediators of the covenant. And we don't appear in God's presence for anyone.

Shalom.

So this passage of the scripture : Matthew 18v10 -Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. , has it expired? Are you saying that Jesus statement there is no longer true, that the children's angels no longer behold the face of God?

Syncan:



So this passage of the scripture : Matthew 18v10 -Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. , has it expired? Are you saying that Jesus statement there is no longer true, that the children's angels no longer behold the face of God?

Didn't you see the explanation I gave you about that same question? I answered you.

In capacity as mediators, which is to appear before the presence of God in heaven in whatever role on behalf of men; angels don't do that anymore.

Because that would null the scripture that says Jesus is now the ONE MEDIATOR between God and man.

ayoku777:


Didn't you see the explanation I gave you about that same question? I answered you.

In capacity as mediators, which is to appear before the presence of God in heaven in whatever capacity on behalf of men; angels don't do that anymore.

Because that would null the scripture that says Jesus is the ONE MEDIATOR between God and man.

At bold: Now I see that your problem is your fear of contradicting Jesus as the One Mediator, yet for that purpose; you are willing to go out of scripture and claim that Jesus saying in Matt.18:10 is no longer true. That's contradictory on itself. I however praise you for being bold enough to proclaim the intercessory roles of angels as seen all over scripture, but to allay your fears and to explain to you why the intercessory roles of angels and saints(on earth or beyond) does not diminish nor contradict the One mediator-ship of Christ, I will say this which I have written somewhere before:



(1Tim 2:5) “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.”

The Catholic Church actually do acknowledge Christ to be our one and absolutely unique mediator who alone can reconcile us to the Father in a strict sense. Thus Christ qualification as our mediator is exhibited in two ways:
1) By his very existence on earth- In taking flesh, Christ united God and Man in His person, for He alone is both God and man.
2) By his ministry,suffering and eventual death on the cross, He paid the debt owed by man and conferred grace on sinful man. In this regards, Christ is our sole mediator.

However, if we take a look at the first verse of that chapter, it says:

(1Tim 2:1) "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men".

Here St. Paul calls us to intercession, yet we know that Christ continues to intercede, since (Heb 7:24-25) says: "But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them". St Paul knows this eternal Intercessory role of Christ, yet he exhorts the faithful to "Intercessions for all men" without fear of contradiction, it therefore means that we can participate in these aspect of Christ's ministry according to the level of "bonding" between us and Jesus without anyone feeling that recognition is taking away from Christ. It is like Jesus saying in (Matt 23:8 ) "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master(teacher), even Christ; and all ye are brethren". Yet we see (James 3:1) telling us there are authentically,many masters(teachers) in the church.In deed,(Eph 4:11) says:"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers". St. Paul calls himself same thing, even in that same chapter of 1Tim 2 in verse 7. The Issue here is to understand that members of the body of Christ(The Church) who participate in teaching and mediating/interceding do not take away from Christ as One Teacher and Mediator, for they are in a sense Christ, and serve to establish His offices of Teacher and mediator in Him.

vooks:


The Angels of the then kids were told to busy themselves with something else after Calvary. Thats funny

Let's think through this; why would God need an angel standing before Him to remind him of a child on earth? Isn't it more plausible to see the Angels as simply guardians lookin over the kids to protect them from harm? How would you call this INTERCESSION?

Oga vooks, you simply ignored all the passages he (ayoku777) brought to your attention, just to stick to your claim. That's not how you seek truth.

Syncan:



Oga vooks, you simply ignored all the passages he (ayoku777) brought to your attention, just to stick to your claim. That's not how you seek truth.

My broda,
The claim Ayoku777 makes is, appearing before God=seeking deliverance from trouble. This has effectively been debunked

Syncan:


At bold: Now I see that your problem is your fear of contradicting Jesus as the One Mediator, yet for that purpose; you are willing to go out of scripture and claim that Jesus saying in Matt.18:10 is no longer true. That's contradictory on itself. I however praise you for being bold enough to proclaim the intercessory roles of angels as seen all over scripture, but to allay your fears and to explain to you why the intercessory roles of angels and saints(on earth or beyond) does not diminish nor contradict the One mediator-ship of Christ, I will say this which I have written somewhere before:



(1Tim 2:5) “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.”

The Catholic Church actually do acknowledge Christ to be our one and absolutely unique mediator who alone can reconcile us to the Father in a strict sense. Thus Christ qualification as our mediator is exhibited in two ways:
1) By his very existence on earth- In taking flesh, Christ united God and Man in His person, for He alone is both God and man.
2) By his ministry,suffering and eventual death on the cross, He paid the debt owed by man and conferred grace on sinful man. In this regards, Christ is our sole mediator.

However, if we take a look at the first verse of that chapter, it says:

(1Tim 2:1) "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men".

Here St. Paul calls us to intercession, yet we know that Christ continues to intercede, since (Heb 7:24-25) says: "But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them". St Paul knows this eternal Intercessory role of Christ, yet he exhorts the faithful to "Intercessions for all men" without fear of contradiction, it therefore means that we can participate in these aspect of Christ's ministry according to the level of "bonding" between us and Jesus without anyone feeling that recognition is taking away from Christ. It is like Jesus saying in (Matt 23:8 ) "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master(teacher), even Christ; and all ye are brethren". Yet we see (James 3:1) telling us there are authentically,many masters(teachers) in the church.In deed,(Eph 4:11) says:"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers". St. Paul calls himself same thing, even in that same chapter of 1Tim 2 in verse 7. The Issue here is to understand that members of the body of Christ(The Church) who participate in teaching and mediating/interceding do not take away from Christ as One Teacher and Mediator, for they are in a sense Christ, and serve to establish His offices of Teacher and mediator in Him.

Sir you are a wise man
Paul calls for intercession and we know Jesus intercedes for us. We can reconcile this by acknowledging that human intercession is way different from the unique Jesus and Holy Spirit intercession.

The point where I differ with Cattholicism is he claim that Angels pray for humans and that dead men/saints pray for sinners.

Asking dead men to pray for you is no different from contacting dead men which is forbidden in the scriptures. So while I may pray for you now, once I depart this is just about it.

The subject of this thread is not dead men/saints interceding but Angels. Ayoku777 went off tangent by claiming angelic intercession ceased with Christ. I insist it was never there in the first place.

vooks:


Sir you are a wise man
Paul calls for intercession and we know Jesus intercedes for us. We can reconcile this by acknowledging that human intercession is way different from the unique Jesus and Holy Spirit intercession.

The point where I differ with Catholicism is he claim that Angels pray for humans and that dead men/saints pray for sinners.

Asking dead men to pray for you is no different from contacting dead men which is forbidden in the scriptures. So while I may pray for you now, once I depart this is just about it.

The subject of this thread is not dead men/saints interceding but Angels. Ayoku777 went off tangent by claiming angelic intercession ceased with Christ. I insist it was never there in the first place.

Now let me summarize things thus:

Vooks (Non Catholic): Angels have never prayed to God for men

ayoku777(Non catholic): Angels did pray to God for men, but stopped after Jesus became the One mediator.

Catholic Church teaching: Angels did pray and still do pray for men.

I agree with ayoku that angels did intercede for men, his examples are apt and solid. You dismiss Zech.1:12 were an angel interceeded for men by claiming that Jesus is the angel, but that's not what scripture says, for scripture never mentioned anything of such, rather we see in Zech.2:3-4 were another angel came to the first angel and told him "Run, speak to this young man, saying...". It cannot be an angel giving Jesus command like that to speak to the young man na haba. They were both angels and it clearly shows that the first angel prayed for men. Again the meaning of what Jesus meant in Matt 18:10 is simply as ayoku777 posited, he has used several examples to support that stand and I agree with him. However he failed it where he brought in an anti-scriptural claim that they have ceased to be before God, for nowhere in the entire scripture did you ever hear that angels of little children stopped being before God. Rather you even see them more as recorded in Rev. 8:3-4 : "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God".

As per your problem with dead humans, all I can tell you is, if you believe Jesus when he said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are living, then you'll believe that Mary, Peter, Paul, the Martyrs and other saints who died in Him are living. The living pray, and the effectiveness of the prayer of the living depends on how close you are to God. The prayer of the righteous avails much James 5:16, who is sure to be more righteous than those who have won the crown of glory already? In Christ we all relate, we that are here and those who have gone to meet him. This is different from necromancy, even a mere check on the meaning of the word will tell you.

Syncan:


Now let me summarize things thus:

Vooks (Non Catholic): Angels have never prayed to God for men

ayoku777(Non catholic): Angels did pray to God for men, but stopped after Jesus became the One mediator.

Catholic Church teaching: Angels did pray and still do pray for men.

I agree with ayoku that angels did intercede for men, his examples are apt and solid. You dismiss Zech.1:12 were an angel interceeded for men by claiming that Jesus is the angel, but that's not what scripture says, for scripture never mentioned anything of such, rather we see in Zech.2:3-4 were another angel came to the first angel and told him "Run, speak to this young man, saying...". It cannot be an angel giving Jesus command like that to speak to the young man na haba. They were both angels and it clearly shows that the first angel prayed for men. Again the meaning of what Jesus meant in Matt 18:10 is simply as ayoku777 posited, he has used several examples to support that stand and I agree with him. However he failed it where he brought in an anti-scriptural claim that they have ceased to be before God, for nowhere in the entire scripture did you ever hear that angels of little children stopped being before God. Rather you even see them more as recorded in Rev. 8:3-4 : "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God".

As per your problem with dead humans, all I can tell you is, if you believe Jesus when he said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are living, then you'll believe that Mary, Peter, Paul, the Martyrs and other saints who died in Him are living. The living pray, and the effectiveness of the prayer of the living depends on how close you are to God. The prayer of the righteous avails much James 5:16, who is sure to be more righteous than those who have won the crown of glory already? In Christ we all relate, we that are here and those who have gone to meet him. This is different from necromancy, even a mere check on the meaning of the word will tell you.

Nothing gives me great joy than when Catholicism runs to Revelation to support angels intercession.

Let's look at it in detail.
The angel offers incense
Incense rises up TOGETHER with prayers
Incense =/= prayers or at the very least they are not in this verse.

What happens NEXT?

Revelation 8:5 (KJV)
And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Did the angel cast down to earth the prayers?

And finally, has it occurred to you that the prayers are already in heaven before the very throne of God?
There are two instances of prayer and incense in Revelation and am ever amazed at how Catholicism cherry picks which if the two to prop their doctrine. Let's look at the other one;

Revelation 5:8 (ESV)
8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Why won't you touch this with a 12ft pole? Because the prayers are offered by the 24 Elders who are simply a figure for the body of Christ. I hope you don't imagine they are some special creatures in heaven


Oh the argument about dead and the living! You are predictable.
Would you share your wife with another man?
Supposing you committed sepukku and your wife remarried. Would she be married to two men, one in purgatory and the other in Lagos?

vooks:


Nothing gives me great joy than when Catholicism runs to Revelation to support angels intercession.

Let's look at it in detail.
The angel offers incense
Incense rises up TOGETHER with prayers
Incense =/= prayers or at the very least they are not in this verse.

What happens NEXT?


Did the angel cast down to earth the prayers?

And finally, has it occurred to you that the prayers are already in heaven before the very throne of God?
There are two instances of prayer and incense in Revelation and am ever amazed at how Catholicism cherry picks which if the two to prop their doctrine. Let's look at the other one;

Revelation 5:8 (ESV)
8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Why won't you touch this with a 12ft pole? Because the prayers are offered by the 24 Elders who are simply a figure for the body of Christ. I hope you don't imagine they are some special creatures in heaven


Oh the argument about dead and the living! You are predictable.
Would you share your wife with another man?
Supposing you committed sepukku and your wife remarried. Would she be married to two men, one in purgatory and the other in Lagos?

I am not moved by taunts or off point insinuations. I simply showed you clearly with Zechariah 1:12, and 2:3-4 that angels do pray for men and that the angel you erroneously claimed was Jesus; was not Jesus, but an angel as scripture said. Again I went further to use another passage of scripture Rev.8:3-4 to show you that angels still do intercede. Since you had nothing to say on Zechariah; you went to revelations to play around. Why I didn't touch it with a 12ft pole ? I didn't come to this passage because you requested I concentrate on angels intercession and not human saints, so it's a passage I'm pleased to associate with as with all parts of scripture. In that passage Rev 5:8 that you brought out, you are actually showing the twenty four elders, who are depicted as the leaders of the people of God in heaven, interceding for men on earth, the people of God in heaven were once on earth weren't they? However I see you got confused on prayers and incense, maybe you can tell me what the prayers looked like different from the incense. Take a look again at the passage you quoted "Revelation 5:8 (ESV)"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Can you see the bold in red? what is described as the prayers of the saints? While you're at it, also take a look at Psalm 141:2 "Let my prayer be like incense offered before you...", it says let the prayers be like incense, it means let it be so sweet and acceptable, a prayer which is like incense before God is a prayer which is pleasing to God, an effective prayer, hence must have come from the humble or righteous as I have mentioned earlier. James 5:6. What is intercession or mediation in terms of prayers, isn't it the presentation of the prayers before God? I have told you earlier how Jesus is the one Mediator between God and Man, and here in the revelations, you've seen angels and you've seen human saints sharing in proportions; that intercessory role of Jesus, by presenting prayers before the Lamb of God.

Let me ignore the last part of your post, since i do not understand what you're driving at, It seems you want to prove Jesus wrong. The essence isn't to try and win a debate by ignoring scriptures,it is to open your heart to accept truth when it's brought before you...yes, even and especially by a Catholic.

Ubenedictus:
U JOKE TOO MUCH

I am still a "children" sir, we play a lot with our fellow kids.

Syncan:



I am not moved by taunts or off point insinuations. I simply showed you clearly with Zechariah 1:12, and 2:3-4 that angels do pray for men and that the angel you erroneously claimed was Jesus; was not Jesus, but an angel as scripture said.

Could you please walk me through what part of these verses is intercession?
Zechariah 2:3-4 (ESV)
3 And behold, the angel who talked with me came forward, and another angel came forward to meet him 4 and said to him, “Run, say to that young man, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as villages without walls, because of the multitude of people and livestock in it. 5 And I will be to her a wall of fire all around, declares the Lord, and I will be the glory in her midst.’”

About Zechariah 1:12, I said this eerily reminds me of John 17 Jesus praying and is it a prayer anyway?

Again I went further to use another passage of scripture Rev.8:3-4 to show you that angels still do intercede.

This is not intercession my broda, if you are determined to read your own things, this is fine with me. You have prayers and you have incense. The prayers are before God already.

Since you had nothing to say on Zechariah; you went to revelations to play around.

I have touched on Xechariah. Stop lying

Why I didn't touch it with a 12ft pole ? I didn't come to this passage because you requested I concentrate on angels intercession and not human saints, so it's a passage I'm pleased to associate with as with all parts of scripture. In that passage Rev 5:8 that you brought out, you are actually showing the twenty four elders, who are depicted as the leaders of the people of God in heaven, interceding for men on earth, the people of God in heaven were once on earth weren't they? However I see you got confused on prayers and incense, maybe you can tell me what the prayers looked like different from the incense. Take a look again at the passage you quoted "Revelation 5:8 (ESV)"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. Can you see the bold in red? what is described as the prayers of the saints? While you're at it, also take a look at Psalm 141:2 "Let my prayer be like incense offered before you...", it says let the prayers be like incense, it means let it be so sweet and acceptable, a prayer which is like incense before God is a prayer which is pleasing to God, an effective prayer, hence must have come from the humble or righteous as I have mentioned earlier. James 5:6. What is intercession or mediation in terms of prayers, isn't it the presentation of the prayers before God?

I need evidence of dead men praying for the living or angels. So far, you have zilch.

I have told you earlier how Jesus is the one Mediator between God and Man, and here in the revelations, you've seen angels and you've seen human saints sharing in proportions; that intercessory role of Jesus, by presenting prayers before the Lamb of God.

Prayers of the saints in Revelation are exactly that; prayers by the saints.

I noticed you ignored the bit about the angel casting the incense on earth. What comes to your mind when you read that? I need to pick your theology on that.

Let me ignore the last part of your post, since i do not understand what you're driving at, It seems you want to prove Jesus wrong. The essence isn't to try and win a debate by ignoring scriptures,it is to open your heart to accept truth when it's brought before you...yes, even and especially by a Catholic.

Why are you ignoring it? You are a married man if not a eunuch. You die. Since there 'communion of saints' bla de bla then your wife's still married to you. She has remarried. So she now has two husbands, one in spirit and another in flesh. Is this so because God is God of the living and not dead?

vooks:


Could you please walk me through what part of these verses is intercession?
Zechariah 2:3-4 (ESV)
3 And behold, the angel who talked with me came forward, and another angel came forward to meet him 4 and said to him, “Run, say to that young man, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as villages without walls, because of the multitude of people and livestock in it. 5 And I will be to her a wall of fire all around, declares the Lord, and I will be the glory in her midst.’”

About Zechariah 1:12, I said this eerily reminds me of John 17 Jesus praying and is it a prayer anyway?


This is not intercession my broda, if you are determined to read your own things, this is fine with me. You have prayers and you have incense. The prayers are before God already.


I have touched on Xechariah. Stop lying


I need evidence of dead men praying for the living or angels. So far, you have zilch.



Prayers of the saints in Revelation are exactly that; prayers by the saints.

I noticed you ignored the bit about the angel casting the incense on earth. What comes to your mind when you read that? I need to pick your theology on that.



Why are you ignoring it? You are a married man if not a eunuch. You die. Since there 'communion of saints' bla de bla then your wife's still married to you. She has remarried. So she now has two husbands, one in spirit and another in flesh. Is this so because God is God of the living and not dead?

Personally I do not like breaking my posts into bits as you just did, that's an easy way for mischief and is tiresome for me. But I will oblige you this once.

1. Zechariah 2:3-4 was to show you that the angel in Zechariah.1:12 is not Jesus. If he were Jesus, the second angel will not address him like this “Run, say to that young man..." No angel can address Jesus in that manner. So if he wasn't Jesus, then an angel prayed for men in Zechariah 1:12. Now I see you don't even read my posts, you're clouded by what you have already learnt.

2. I cannot help you if you're quarreling with scriptures, all I do is point them out to you.

3. You want to know my theology on "angels casting incense on earth"? Please I need you to show me which part of scripture this happened, or is that a lie against scripture?

4.On your wild imaginations concerning marriage, wife and husbands, all I can do is refer you to Jesus words in Matt.22:28-33.

Syncan:



Personally I do not like breaking my posts into bits as you just did, that's an easy way for mischief and is tiresome for me. But I will oblige you this once.

1. Zechariah 2:3-4 was to show you that the angel in Zechariah.1:12 is not Jesus. If he were Jesus, the second angel will not address him like this “Run, say to that young man..." No angel can address Jesus in that manner. So if he wasn't Jesus, then an angel prayed for men in Zechariah 1:12. Now I see you don't even read my posts, you're clouded by what you have already learnt.

2. I cannot help you if you're quarreling with scriptures, all I do is point them out to you.

3. You want to know my theology on "angels casting incense on earth"? Please I need you to show me which part of scripture this happened, or is that a lie against scripture?

4.On your wild imaginations concerning marriage, wife and husbands, all I can do is refer you to Jesus words in Matt.22:28-33.

Go back to Revelation and tell me what happens when the angel is given incense.

About Zechariah, I said this looks like Jesus praying in John 17 but I wonder whether it is a prayer or any sort in the first place.

On marriage, It is not wild imagination sir, Catholicism would like to imagine there is no death and dead men are as good as the living seeing God is a God of the living. Following this thought, it goes without saying you still retain dead spouses still retain 'fellowship' with the living. If you can invoke this to justify praying to demons and calling them saints, why not apply the same to marriage?

vooks:


Go back to Revelation and tell me what happens when the angel is given incense.

About Zechariah, I said this looks like Jesus praying in John 17 but I wonder whether it is a prayer or any sort in the first place.

On marriage, It is not wild imagination sir, Catholicism would like to imagine there is no death and dead men are as good as the living seeing God is a God of the living. Following this thought, it goes without saying you still retain dead spouses still retain 'fellowship' with the living. If you can invoke this to justify praying to demons and calling them saints, why not apply the same to marriage?

This is what my bible said happened to the incense "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand". Please show me where yours talked about "angel casting the incense on earth". I'll like to see that to be sure you're not importing your imaginations in the name of scriptures.

Again on Zechariah you continue to stand by what you imagine and not what scripture shows.You're no longer sure it was Jesus since I have shown you why it isn't Jesus. Now you say it "looks like" Jesus praying in John 17, yet again you have suddenly start to "wonder if it was a prayer of any sort" Smh. Only the truth shall set you free.

I really don't know how to help you on the matter of marriage, you seem to be asking me same questions that Jesus was asked, let me direct you to scriptures once again : "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living"Matt.22:28-32. Just to help you, Jesus gives us two truths here: 1. The saints gone before us do not marry. 2. The saints gone before us are living. The problem is not Catholicism, It is either you believe Jesus or you doubt him, please make up your mind.

Syncan:



This is what my bible said happened to the incense "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand". Please show me where yours talked about "angel casting the incense on earth". I'll like to see that to be sure you're not importing your imaginations in the name of scriptures.

Walk me through Revelation 8. What did the angel cast on earth?

Revelation 8:5 (AMP)
5 So the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and cast it upon the earth. Then there followed peals of thunder and loud rumblings and blasts and noises, and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

Again on Zechariah you continue to stand by what you imagine and not what scripture shows.You're no longer sure it was Jesus since I have shown you why it isn't Jesus. Now you say it "looks like" Jesus praying in John 17, yet again you have suddenly start to "wonder if it was a prayer of any sort" Smh. Only the truth shall set you free.

Zechariah is an extremely tenous scripture to prop angel worship. I stand by my assertion that Zechariah mirrors John 17 and if it indeed was intercession, it was from Jesus Christ but it is not necessarily intercession.


The truth that worship of Angels is sin and worship of saints is necromancy. In fact those are not saints you contact but demons.

I really don't know how to help you on the matter of marriage, you seem to be asking me same questions that Jesus was asked, let me direct you to scriptures once again : "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living"Matt.22:28-32. Just to help you, Jesus gives us two truths here: 1. The saints gone before us do not marry. 2. The saints gone before us are living. The problem is not Catholicism, It is either you believe Jesus or you doubt him, please make up your mind.

Catholicism claims to have 'fellowship' or 'communion' of saints either in heaven or earth. This means saints here can intercede just as saints in heaven,as there are really no dead saints seeing God is God of the living. Why not stretch this further to marriage? Why is it that death dissolves a marriage if there is zero distinction between the living and the dead?

In fact since we have communion of saints, we really don't have widows and widowers. Such asinine and depraved philosophy is nauseating

What is the difference between Negroes who visit cemeteries to talk to their deceased relations and a Catholic chatting with Mary or Mother Teresa?

vooks:

Walk me through Revelation 8. What did the angel cast on earth?

Revelation 8:5 (AMP)
5 So the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and cast it upon the earth. Then there followed peals of thunder and loud rumblings and blasts and noises, and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.



Zechariah is an extremely tenous scripture to prop angel worship. I stand by my assertion that Zechariah mirrors John 17 and if it indeed was intercession, it was from Jesus Christ but it is not necessarily intercession.


The truth that worship of Angels is sin and worship of saints is necromancy. In fact those are not saints you contact but demons.




Catholicism claims to have 'fellowship' or 'communion' of saints either in heaven or earth. This means saints here can intercede just as saints in heaven,as there are really no dead saints seeing God is God of the living. Why not stretch this further to marriage? Why is it that death dissolves a marriage if there is zero distinction between the living and the dead?

In fact since we have communion of saints, we really don't have widows and widowers. Such asinine and depraved philosophy is nauseating

What is the difference between Negroes who visit cemeteries to talk to their deceased relations and a Catholic chatting with Mary or Mother Teresa?

Despite the fact that I already told you that breaking my posts in such fashion helps you be mischievous, you went ahead and did it again because you actually want to be mischievous and hide the fact that you're lying against scripture. You talked about "angel casting the incense on earth" when I asked you to show me from scripture you quoted this: Revelation 8:5 (AMP) "So the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and cast it upon the earth. Then there followed peals of thunder and loud rumblings and blasts and noises, and flashes of lightning and an earthquake". Please where in this scripture did the angel cast incense on earth? You just put on your robe of accusations and come facing the brethren, yet in Ignorance you pontificate and make a mess of yourself. Scripture is right that only the truth shall set you free and so it is. I have made bold in red font; what the angel cast on earth, since you no longer can read your own scriptural quotes. What the angel cast on earth in verse 5; was "fire taken from the alter of God", this was after the smoke of the incense had "ascended up before God out of the hand of the angel" as seen in verse 4. Please say the truth always, that's how you'll come closer to Christ.

On the rest, I have nothing to say about you quarreling with scripture, and your wild imaginations in attempting to divert attention from your lies against scripture, It's entirely your problem not mine.

Syncan:


Despite the fact that I already told you that breaking my posts in such fashion helps you be mischievous, you went ahead and did it again because you actually want to be mischievous and hide the fact that you're lying against scripture. You talked about "angel casting the incense on earth" when I asked you to show me from scripture you quoted this: Revelation 8:5 (AMP) "So the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and cast it upon the earth. Then there followed peals of thunder and loud rumblings and blasts and noises, and flashes of lightning and an earthquake". Please where in this scripture did the angel cast incense on earth? You just put on your robe of accusations and come facing the brethren, yet in Ignorance you pontificate and make a mess of yourself. Scripture is right that only the truth shall set you free and so it is. I have made bold in red font; what the angel cast on earth, since you no longer can read your own scriptural quotes. What the angel cast on earth in verse 5; was "fire taken from the alter of God", this was after the smoke of the incense had "ascended up before God out of the hand of the angel" as seen in verse 4. Please say the truth always, that's how you'll come closer to Christ.

The incense is not blown like dust, it is put in a censer with burning fire. The censer is cast down to earth. If the Angel was mediating and interceding as Carholicism would imagine he was, that effectively stops the moment the censer is cast to earth.

On the rest, I have nothing to say about you quarrel with scripture and your wild imaginations, attempting to divert attention from your lies against scripture, It's entirely your problem not mine.

The reason you have NOTHING on the wisdom dispensed above is because it exposes the foolishness of excusing necromancy in the name of 'God is a God of the living so dead saints are not dead really'. If you were consistent in in applying your 'fellowship of saints' you'd be telling widows that they have superb fellowship with their hubbies from purgatory. This is Nonsense Incarnate.

Praise be to God for the valiant reformers who tore through Catholicism rot

KingEbukasBlog:

Lol ... it was a joke

It wasnt really funny

Ubenedictus:
It wasnt really funny

quality jokes are not appreciated these days tho

ayoku777:


I never denied a human being can pray for another human. If you have read the posts you will see all the scriptures I used to show that saints on earth can pray for eachother

Ephesians 6v18 - Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

2Cor 1v11 - Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.

Phillipians 1v19 -For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

But do we appear before the presence of God in heaven to do the intercession?

YOU are now spilting hairs, before whose presence do u appear when u interceed? d devil?

ayoku777:


Didn't you see the explanation I gave you about that same question? I answered you.

In capacity as mediators, which is to appear before the presence of God in heaven in whatever role on behalf of men; angels don't do that anymore.

Because that would null the scripture that says Jesus is now the ONE MEDIATOR between God and man.

U have managed to confuse the issue. Jesus is d sole mediator of d new convenant, does that anul intercesion?

vooks:


Sir you are a wise man
Paul calls for intercession and we know Jesus intercedes for us. We can reconcile this by acknowledging that human intercession is way different from the unique Jesus and Holy Spirit intercession.

The point where I differ with Cattholicism is he claim that Angels pray for humans and that dead men/saints pray for sinners.

Asking dead men to pray for you is no different from contacting dead men which is forbidden in the scriptures. So while I may pray for you now, once I depart this is just about it.

The subject of this thread is not dead men/saints interceding but Angels. Ayoku777 went off tangent by claiming angelic intercession ceased with Christ. I insist it was never there in the first place.

U are shifting d topic from angels to saints. i have seen dis b4 when sum1 cant defend a point he shift d topic. d topic is angel zac 1 is d passage. ur work is to prove d angel is Jesus.

vooks:


Could you please walk me through what part of these verses is intercession?
Zechariah 2:3-4 (ESV)
3 And behold, the angel who talked with me came forward, and another angel came forward to meet him 4 and said to him, “Run, say to that young man, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as villages without walls, because of the multitude of people and livestock in it. 5 And I will be to her a wall of fire all around, declares the Lord, and I will be the glory in her midst.’”

About Zechariah 1:12, I said this eerily reminds me of John 17 Jesus praying and is it a prayer anyway?

so u think an angel commanded Jesus on what to do and say, simply because u want to deny dat angels interceed?