paschu:


Okay, I think we are getting somewhere ( though I noticed the variatio in both titles of your two mentions of God).

From your above axplaination, you have not seen any evidence that's rational enough to make you believe in the existence of God, but AT THE SAME TIME, you are not yet absolutely CERTAIN (in other words, you also have not yet found enough rational evidence to prove) that God does not exist.

This brings us to the second question:

2. Was there ever a time in your life at which you absolutely believed there was God?

Answer to question 2 is yes, up till say, 10 yrs ago, I was an agnostic theist.

But you have to remember that belief in the existence of is shoved down our little minds during early childhood, long before we could articulate our own thoughts.

KingEbukasBlog:
I've always maintained that God is an embodiment of moral good and is not subject to his own laws . If we study the bible closely , it appears that God "disobeys" His own laws . The argument has been God makes laws for us, but seems to disobey those laws Himself. If this is true, so it is argued, God demands more of us than He does of Himself. Let’s explore this argument to test its validity.

Basic Elements of Law


1. Authority.

Law, by its very nature, requires a few basic elements. First, there must be an established authority to make the law. In the case of federal law, the United States consists of branches of duly elected representatives of the people who pass and enforce laws. When it comes to natural law, there are no written ordinances, but the authority that established the principles that govern nature (i.e. God) put them in place by virtue of the fact that He created nature and so has the right to order it as He pleases (cf. Jer. 33:25). Divine Law that is given by revelation is higher than any human law. It is not set by man although many laws of man derive their authority from divine law—and thus from God Himself. Just as God made the elements of the natural world with the laws that govern them, God made man as a spiritual being and He alone holds the ultimate authority to regulate his behavior (Ps. 119:105).

2. Rules.

A second element common to all law is some type of rules or regulations. All laws mandate certain things that must operate a certain way. A system without rules is said to be lawless. Any system that is governed by law operates within set rules and guidelines. It could be a speed limit. The law mandates “70 miles per hour” as the maximum speed at which a vehicle can travel on a certain road. It could be behavior. It is a crime to steal. Law BooksThe nature of the rules depends upon the nature of the thing regulated. In some cases the authority that enforces the rule is understood to stand outside of the rule. The highway patrolman who exceeds 70 miles per hour is not guilty if he does this to catch a driver who is speeding. The policeman that confiscates stolen property is not a thief. Part of their authority exempts them from some measure of accountability to the very laws they must enforce.

3. Jurisdiction.

A third element of all law is jurisdiction. For law to have meaning there must be some realm over which a given law has dominion. The ancient laws of the Hittite empire may be curious relics of antiquity but they no longer hold any power because there is no longer a Hittite empire. The realm and the region over which these laws once held power no longer exists. In regional governments the issue of jurisdiction is paramount. The authority of one state cannot enforce its laws on the citizens of another because it does not have jurisdiction. By the same token, if I violate a practice that is considered criminal in another jurisdiction, but is permitted within the county, state, or country where I live I am not guilty. A good example of this is the burka worn by Muslim women. A woman in the United States is not a criminal if she refuses to wear a burka even though it is required by law in countries such as Saudi Arabia.

4. Subjects.

Finally, in a very similar way, all law must involve subjects—that is, those who are under obligation to that law. We as Nigerians are obligated to obey the laws of our nation because we are properly subjects of the government which holds authority over us, and thus subject to its laws.


God’s Relationship to His Own Laws

1. Laws of Nature.

As we all know God is the authority who established these laws. There are set rules that define these laws. Laws of gravity demand that a rock falls to the ground—it doesn’t float up into the sky. Is God within the jurisdiction of natural law? A key difference between the picture of the God of the Bible and the concepts of pagan false religions is what is called transcendence. Greek GodsThe God of the Bible exists outside of the natural realm that He created. In other words, while Zeus, or Anubis, or Odin were themselves subject to certain laws of nature, the God of the Bible stands outside of the jurisdiction of natural laws. He is the “unmoved Mover.” He is the First Cause of all things! That means He can make an ax-head float (2 Kings 6:5-6). He can make time stand still (Josh. 10:12-13). He can make the shadow of the sundial go backwards (2 Kings 20:10-11). He is not under the jurisdiction of natural law, but very atom within this present universe, together with every soul made in His image is. They are subjects of the natural laws that God established over His creation. Because God transcends the natural universe, He is not a subject of His own creation, and is therefore not subject to the laws that govern it.

2. Moral or Religious Law.

What about moral or religious laws? There is an interesting example that concerns the Sabbath commandment. The rules required that no ordinary work was to be done on the seventh day (Exod. 20:10). This was a law that was not given until the Law of Moses was revealed (Neh. 9:14). It was a law that was not restated under the Law of Christ (Col. 2:16). That means that those who worked on the seventh day before the Law of Moses, as well as those who now live under Christ, and even those who were not a part of the Mosaic covenant during the time of the Israelite commonwealth were outside of its jurisdiction and were not, therefore, subject to its regulation. What about God? This law was drawn from what was said about God’s creation (Exod. 20:11). The present universe was made in six days, but Scripture tells us that after this was done, God “rested on the seventh day from all the work which He had done” (Gen. 2:2). Even before this was given as a law to the Israelites, God is said to have “blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it” (Gen. 2:3). The Hebrew writer, in one sense speaks of God’s works being “finished from the foundation of the world” (Heb. 4:3-4), but Jesus, when criticized for healing on the Sabbath said, “My Father has been working until now, and I have being working” (John 5:16-17). Did God violate His own Sabbath law? No. He stood outside of its jurisdiction and like those before and after the Law of Moses, He was not subject to its regulation.


3. Genocide.

This may seem reasonable when we are talking about things like the Sabbath law, but what is most frequently criticized is God’s treatment of His creation. That is, He commands us not to murder, but then He has commanded the extermination of the Canaanites, and Amalekites. Or, He commands us not to harm one another but He promises to punish the wicked throughout all eternity. Is He breaking His own laws in these examples? What are the basic elements of law in these examples? God is, once again, the established authority and He has set the rules that govern appropriate behavior. Yet, has God defined all taking of life as wrong? No! It is true that man is not to avenge himself (Rom. 12:19), and God condemns murder (Exod. 20:13), but He grants to the civil authority the right to punish even to the point of death those guilty of certain laws (Rom. 13:4). Is the executioner a murderer? No. Like the policeman who speeds to catch someone speeding, the executioner in his authority to carry out punishment is (to a measure) exempt from accountability to the law he is enforcing (cf. Num. 35:27). God on some specific occasions commanded Israel (in essence) to act as His executioner (Deut. 7:1-5; 25:17-19; 1 Sam. 15:1-5). The Canaanites and Amalekites were among some of the most wicked people that history has every known (Deut. 9:4; Ps. 106:34-37). God bore with their wickedness for a time in order to give them time to repent (cf. Gen. 15:16). When the time came, He used Israel as the vehicle by which He ended their ability to do any more wickedness. Did He violate His own law? No. First, because He was never under the jurisdiction of this law, nor a subject to obey it, but also because the people whom He used to carry out His punishment were not violating any divine law themselves. They were carrying out lawful punishment—in this case in the form of warfare.

4. Eternal Punishment.

What about eternal punishment? The issue of jurisdiction is applicable to this question as well. God is not under the jurisdiction of the laws He has set for His creation. When Judgment Day comes the nature of the present jurisdiction will be changed. What rules will govern the age to come? The jurisdiction of the realm of the saved will not be the same as the jurisdiction of the realm of the condemned. For example, to some measure, in that age the present laws of nature will be changed. In the jurisdiction of the saved there will be no more death, nor sorrow, nor pain because for them “the former things have passed away” (Rev. 21:4). On the other hand, some of these things will exist for the lost—“the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever” (Rev. 14:11). Is it cruel for God to punish the wicked eternally? Let’s consider this from another angle. If I create something—a piece of pottery, a bird house, a painting, or a machine—what rights do I have over that thing I have created? Am I cruel to the pottery if I reshape it into another vessel? (cf. Jer. 18:5-6). Have I sinned against the bird house if I decide to use it for something else? If the machine turns out to be dangerous, am I a monster if I make certain it is kept away from ever causing any harm to anyone ever again? No.

In our creation it is God that formed the molecules and synaptic responses that form our physical bodies (Ps. 139:13-16). We are His creation—He can do with us as He pleases. God asked Judah, “can I not do to you as this potter?” (Jer. 18:6). Above all other creatures in this universe, He has blessed us by placing within us a spirit that is said to be in His image (Gen. 1:26-27)—we are from this point onward eternal creatures (Eccl. 3:11). That is a blessing! But it is a blessing that demands responsibility. The nature and demands of God are such that all creatures that bear His likeness must conform to His law. For those who fail in this (which is to say all who are morally accountable in age and ability) He has made provision for this failure by the atonement of Christ. What is God to do with those of His creation whom He has made eternal who remain in rebellion to His authority and refuse His regulation? Since He is not a subject of His own law, and therefore not under the jurisdiction of His own authority we cannot even compare any action He takes to punish wrong with committing wrong—remember the executioner is not a murderer. Confiscation is not theft. Those who reject the gospel of Christ establish themselves as a type of eternally dangerous machine that must be forever put where it can never harm the subjects of God’s kingdom ever again—that is essentially what hell is. Is this cruel on God’s part? No, it is His right as Creator and the transcendent authority over His creation.

Reference : http://focusmagazine.org/does-god-violate-his-own-laws.php

cc : winner01 , Joshthefirst , bxcode , MrPresident1, gatiano , unphilaz , Muafrika2, mykohayz Richirich713, MrsPhyno, sukkot, OLAADEGBU , vooks, UyiIredia , Scholar8200, Jeromejnr , plaetton, DeepSight , malvisguy212 Kay17 , PastorAIO , Rawblings , Ayomikun37

Nice Read. I have never really given this some thought.

This is my view point. I also do not think God violates his laws.

Every law has its sphere of influence. A natural law can be suspended by a higher law as seen in the case of airplanes which use the law of lift to overcome gravity. There was a time everyone thought flying was impossible due gravity but with an improvement in knowledge it is a present-day reality. The more knowledgeable man gets, the less the limitations he has. So it shouldn’t come as a surprise that the all-knowing God has the knowledge to apply supernatural laws that suspend existing natural laws when he deems fit.

When it comes to moral laws, He doesn’t go around violating them. Jesus said, “be ye perfect as your father in Heaven is perfect”. If God carries out an act, there’s a legal backing for it. One law says the soul that sinneth shall die; another says without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sin. The Israelites had an understanding of the latter which allowed mercy to prevail over judgment. When they sinned and they offered sacrifices unto God and their sins were covered. The other nations didn’t. Hence, judgment was meted out on them. Recall, there was a time Isreal had a battle with Moab. Isreal was advancing and destroying everything on her way until the King of Moab offered a precious sacrifice (2 Kings 3:27) and the Bible records the tide turned and Isreal withdrew. In the case of the flood, God sent out a warning well ahead of time and asked them to relocate to the ark. They didn’t heed. (The same way the government could ask traders to relocate and some would refuse. If their goods are destroyed who is to blame?).

Finally, we need to remember it’s not a democracy. It’s a kingdom. A king and a president do not operate with the same set of rules.


P.S. Today, Jesus is the sin sacrifice and that ark.

If God can violate his own laws, why has he forsaken Africa?

Should we pray more?

KingEbukasBlog:
I've always maintained that God is an embodiment of moral good and is not subject to his own laws . If we study the bible closely , it appears that God "disobeys" His own laws . The argument has been God makes laws for us, but seems to disobey those laws Himself. If this is true, so it is argued, God demands more of us than He does of Himself. Let’s explore this argument to test its validity.

Basic Elements of Law


1. Authority.

Law, by its very nature, requires a few basic elements. First, there must be an established authority to make the law. In the case of federal law, the United States consists of branches of duly elected representatives of the people who pass and enforce laws. When it comes to natural law, there are no written ordinances, but the authority that established the principles that govern nature (i.e. God) put them in place by virtue of the fact that He created nature and so has the right to order it as He pleases (cf. Jer. 33:25). Divine Law that is given by revelation is higher than any human law. It is not set by man although many laws of man derive their authority from divine law—and thus from God Himself. Just as God made the elements of the natural world with the laws that govern them, God made man as a spiritual being and He alone holds the ultimate authority to regulate his behavior (Ps. 119:105).

2. Rules.

A second element common to all law is some type of rules or regulations. All laws mandate certain things that must operate a certain way. A system without rules is said to be lawless. Any system that is governed by law operates within set rules and guidelines. It could be a speed limit. The law mandates “70 miles per hour” as the maximum speed at which a vehicle can travel on a certain road. It could be behavior. It is a crime to steal. Law BooksThe nature of the rules depends upon the nature of the thing regulated. In some cases the authority that enforces the rule is understood to stand outside of the rule. The highway patrolman who exceeds 70 miles per hour is not guilty if he does this to catch a driver who is speeding. The policeman that confiscates stolen property is not a thief. Part of their authority exempts them from some measure of accountability to the very laws they must enforce.

3. Jurisdiction.

A third element of all law is jurisdiction. For law to have meaning there must be some realm over which a given law has dominion. The ancient laws of the Hittite empire may be curious relics of antiquity but they no longer hold any power because there is no longer a Hittite empire. The realm and the region over which these laws once held power no longer exists. In regional governments the issue of jurisdiction is paramount. The authority of one state cannot enforce its laws on the citizens of another because it does not have jurisdiction. By the same token, if I violate a practice that is considered criminal in another jurisdiction, but is permitted within the county, state, or country where I live I am not guilty. A good example of this is the burka worn by Muslim women. A woman in the United States is not a criminal if she refuses to wear a burka even though it is required by law in countries such as Saudi Arabia.

4. Subjects.

Finally, in a very similar way, all law must involve subjects—that is, those who are under obligation to that law. We as Nigerians are obligated to obey the laws of our nation because we are properly subjects of the government which holds authority over us, and thus subject to its laws.


God’s Relationship to His Own Laws

1. Laws of Nature.

As we all know God is the authority who established these laws. There are set rules that define these laws. Laws of gravity demand that a rock falls to the ground—it doesn’t float up into the sky. Is God within the jurisdiction of natural law? A key difference between the picture of the God of the Bible and the concepts of pagan false religions is what is called transcendence. Greek GodsThe God of the Bible exists outside of the natural realm that He created. In other words, while Zeus, or Anubis, or Odin were themselves subject to certain laws of nature, the God of the Bible stands outside of the jurisdiction of natural laws. He is the “unmoved Mover.” He is the First Cause of all things! That means He can make an ax-head float (2 Kings 6:5-6). He can make time stand still (Josh. 10:12-13). He can make the shadow of the sundial go backwards (2 Kings 20:10-11). He is not under the jurisdiction of natural law, but very atom within this present universe, together with every soul made in His image is. They are subjects of the natural laws that God established over His creation. Because God transcends the natural universe, He is not a subject of His own creation, and is therefore not subject to the laws that govern it.

2. Moral or Religious Law.

What about moral or religious laws? There is an interesting example that concerns the Sabbath commandment. The rules required that no ordinary work was to be done on the seventh day (Exod. 20:10). This was a law that was not given until the Law of Moses was revealed (Neh. 9:14). It was a law that was not restated under the Law of Christ (Col. 2:16). That means that those who worked on the seventh day before the Law of Moses, as well as those who now live under Christ, and even those who were not a part of the Mosaic covenant during the time of the Israelite commonwealth were outside of its jurisdiction and were not, therefore, subject to its regulation. What about God? This law was drawn from what was said about God’s creation (Exod. 20:11). The present universe was made in six days, but Scripture tells us that after this was done, God “rested on the seventh day from all the work which He had done” (Gen. 2:2). Even before this was given as a law to the Israelites, God is said to have “blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it” (Gen. 2:3). The Hebrew writer, in one sense speaks of God’s works being “finished from the foundation of the world” (Heb. 4:3-4), but Jesus, when criticized for healing on the Sabbath said, “My Father has been working until now, and I have being working” (John 5:16-17). Did God violate His own Sabbath law? No. He stood outside of its jurisdiction and like those before and after the Law of Moses, He was not subject to its regulation.


3. Genocide.

This may seem reasonable when we are talking about things like the Sabbath law, but what is most frequently criticized is God’s treatment of His creation. That is, He commands us not to murder, but then He has commanded the extermination of the Canaanites, and Amalekites. Or, He commands us not to harm one another but He promises to punish the wicked throughout all eternity. Is He breaking His own laws in these examples? What are the basic elements of law in these examples? God is, once again, the established authority and He has set the rules that govern appropriate behavior. Yet, has God defined all taking of life as wrong? No! It is true that man is not to avenge himself (Rom. 12:19), and God condemns murder (Exod. 20:13), but He grants to the civil authority the right to punish even to the point of death those guilty of certain laws (Rom. 13:4). Is the executioner a murderer? No. Like the policeman who speeds to catch someone speeding, the executioner in his authority to carry out punishment is (to a measure) exempt from accountability to the law he is enforcing (cf. Num. 35:27). God on some specific occasions commanded Israel (in essence) to act as His executioner (Deut. 7:1-5; 25:17-19; 1 Sam. 15:1-5). The Canaanites and Amalekites were among some of the most wicked people that history has every known (Deut. 9:4; Ps. 106:34-37). God bore with their wickedness for a time in order to give them time to repent (cf. Gen. 15:16). When the time came, He used Israel as the vehicle by which He ended their ability to do any more wickedness. Did He violate His own law? No. First, because He was never under the jurisdiction of this law, nor a subject to obey it, but also because the people whom He used to carry out His punishment were not violating any divine law themselves. They were carrying out lawful punishment—in this case in the form of warfare.

4. Eternal Punishment.

What about eternal punishment? The issue of jurisdiction is applicable to this question as well. God is not under the jurisdiction of the laws He has set for His creation. When Judgment Day comes the nature of the present jurisdiction will be changed. What rules will govern the age to come? The jurisdiction of the realm of the saved will not be the same as the jurisdiction of the realm of the condemned. For example, to some measure, in that age the present laws of nature will be changed. In the jurisdiction of the saved there will be no more death, nor sorrow, nor pain because for them “the former things have passed away” (Rev. 21:4). On the other hand, some of these things will exist for the lost—“the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever” (Rev. 14:11). Is it cruel for God to punish the wicked eternally? Let’s consider this from another angle. If I create something—a piece of pottery, a bird house, a painting, or a machine—what rights do I have over that thing I have created? Am I cruel to the pottery if I reshape it into another vessel? (cf. Jer. 18:5-6). Have I sinned against the bird house if I decide to use it for something else? If the machine turns out to be dangerous, am I a monster if I make certain it is kept away from ever causing any harm to anyone ever again? No.

In our creation it is God that formed the molecules and synaptic responses that form our physical bodies (Ps. 139:13-16). We are His creation—He can do with us as He pleases. God asked Judah, “can I not do to you as this potter?” (Jer. 18:6). Above all other creatures in this universe, He has blessed us by placing within us a spirit that is said to be in His image (Gen. 1:26-27)—we are from this point onward eternal creatures (Eccl. 3:11). That is a blessing! But it is a blessing that demands responsibility. The nature and demands of God are such that all creatures that bear His likeness must conform to His law. For those who fail in this (which is to say all who are morally accountable in age and ability) He has made provision for this failure by the atonement of Christ. What is God to do with those of His creation whom He has made eternal who remain in rebellion to His authority and refuse His regulation? Since He is not a subject of His own law, and therefore not under the jurisdiction of His own authority we cannot even compare any action He takes to punish wrong with committing wrong—remember the executioner is not a murderer. Confiscation is not theft. Those who reject the gospel of Christ establish themselves as a type of eternally dangerous machine that must be forever put where it can never harm the subjects of God’s kingdom ever again—that is essentially what hell is. Is this cruel on God’s part? No, it is His right as Creator and the transcendent authority over His creation.

Reference : http://focusmagazine.org/does-god-violate-his-own-laws.php

cc : winner01 , Joshthefirst , bxcode , MrPresident1, gatiano , unphilaz , Muafrika2, mykohayz Richirich713, MrsPhyno, sukkot, OLAADEGBU , vooks, UyiIredia , Scholar8200, Jeromejnr , plaetton, DeepSight , malvisguy212 Kay17 , PastorAIO , Rawblings , Ayomikun37

great read, many poignant points raised and discussed and explained and accounted for. nothing more I can add to it that would do it more justice than you already gave it. The ' MAN ' can do whatever he likes with his creation and fortunately for us all, he deals objectively with us all. thats all we can ever ask for. galatians 6 vs 7 >> whatever you put in is what you will receive and he is no respecter of persons. kudos

PastorAIO:
On what do you base your confidence on all the promises of your religious doctrines?

You claim that they were given to you by a being that is not bound by any moral boundaries. How then can you have trust in him?

How many times does he have to repeat that he is an embodiment of moral good. That he is not bound by any moral boundaries doesn't invalidate the character of his person.

PastorAIO:
PastorAIO:
On what do you base your confidence on all the promises of your religious doctrines?

You claim that they were given to you by a being that is not bound by any moral boundaries. How then can you have trust in him?

why did you quote yourself na?

plaetton:


Lol@ sovereign law giver and very supreme judge of the entire universe.

THOR's father, Odin, comes to mind.

So, can we agree that Odin is that perfect and supreme law giver and judge of the universe ?

If no, kindly give your reasons.

lol. I thought you were above these kind of tactics. This is what I'll still expect from a naivé militant, not one of your eloquence and experience.

When an atheist is backed into a corner on the logical character of supreme deity he pulls the multi-religion multi-deity red herring from his dogmatic innards. It looks like they never outgrow this programmed reaction to superior logic, as even father plaetton is displaying it.

OLAADEGBU:


Succintly written. It is true that God is outside His creation. He is outside time, He created time and thus cannot be subject to its laws. God has no beginning since He is beyond time. God is not bound by the laws of the universe He created and He is not part of the chain of effects within time.

God does not require a cause since He has always existed, He is beyond time and is not part of the physical universe. It should be known that God is a Spirit, and that He is not a sequence of energetic reactions therefore, the laws of thermodynamics do not apply to Him.

God deserves the right to set the rules for our behaviour because He created us in His own image and we are thereby subject to Him.

I wonder why people like uncle plaetton would contravene this beautiful piece .

plaetton:


Answer to question 2 is yes, up till say, 10 yrs ago, I was an agnostic theist.

But you have to remember that belief in the existence of is shoved down our little minds during early childhood, long before we could articulate our own thoughts.

And now we could articulate our own thoughts ? Why are we still theists . Even the smartest minds amongst us . Its more than the religion you know . And you talk like there is sanity in not having any belief in the existence of eternal conscious creator/intelligent designer .

https://www.nairaland.com/3031778/met-god-well-known-blasphemer

Joshthefirst:
lol. I thought you were above these kind of tactics. This is what I'll still expect from a naivé militant, not one of your eloquence and experience.

When an atheist is backed into a corner on the logical character of supreme deity he pulls [b]the multi-religion multi-deity red herring [/b]from his dogmatic innards. It looks like they never outgrow this programmed reaction to superior logic, as even father plaetton is displaying it.

Anytime an atheist resorts to mentioning that there are similar beliefs from other religions , just know that the argument has been won .

plaetton:

.

If the belief in a God can and do make people better citizens of humanity, then sure , by all means, believe.

But, history has shown the opposite to be true.

An outlandish lie.

Very recent history has shown us the atrocities atheistic beliefs can rain on society. From the horrors of the atheist soviet state to the Nazi philosophy that resulted in the death of millions and suffering and psychological torture of millions more.


It is very noted that your strategy of mockery and ridicule and offense of religious people/beliefs was the same employed by stalin and his soviets in their militant communist atheism.

Unfortunately history proves that you can never truly win people to your side by persecution, both in the form of violence, or mockery and ridicule.

KingEbukasBlog:


And now we could articulate our own thoughts ? Why are we still theists . Even the smartest minds amongst us . Its more than the religion you know . And you talk like there is sanity in not having any belief in the existence of eternal conscious creator/intelligent designer .

https://www.nairaland.com/3031778/met-god-well-known-blasphemer

Unfortunately for him and his fancy bio, true non-belief only leads to insanity, meaninglessness, suicide, hopeless self gratification, militant violence.

plaetton:


If the belief in a God can and do make people better citizens of humanity, then sure , by all means, believe.

But, history has shown the opposite to be true.

Awkward !

https://www.nairaland.com/2988881/atheism-terrorism-annihilation-grasp-atheistic

KingEbukasBlog:


Do you realise that Hitler departed from his faith and became a tyrant , a killer , exuding wickedness and evil . Who was he again ? An atheist . Mao killed close to 40 million people as he imposed (k9blunt take note ) The Great Leap Forward on the people of China . Who was he ?an atheist .

Kim Jong-un of North Korea feeds people to dogs , builds nuclear bombs - a clear intention to obliterate or subjugate mankind , who is he ? An atheist . Communist countries caused/cause so much pain and sorrow to the religious , no tolerance of their own personal beliefs and meted inhumane punishments to anyone who contravenes . In fact , Communist regimes killed 60 million in the 20th century through genocide . It is also estimated that in the past 100 years, governments under the banner of atheistic communism have caused the death of somewhere between 40,472,000 to 259,432,000 human lives

And somehow just somehow you , inside your puny mind , think Christians have the worst moral values

Anyway , just know that people who adhere to the teachings of Christ live in peace and love with one another . Thank God for Jesus

Joshthefirst:
lol. I thought you were above these kind of tactics. This is what I'll still expect from a naivé militant, not one of your eloquence and experience.

When an atheist is backed into a corner on the logical character of supreme deity he pulls the multi-religion multi-deity red herring from his dogmatic innards. It looks like they never outgrow this programmed reaction to superior logic, as even father plaetton is displaying it.

Next His next tactics are going to be insults and mocking, after that comes the deliberate lies to add emotion to his claims.

Then maybe start quoting bible verses out of context, giving a interpretation no bible scholar gives, run with, add emotional words(rape, murder) ,repeat the same things over and over, then afterwards go back to the multiple gods argument.

Conclusion, it's very unlikely you going to have a intelligent discussion with an atheist on nairaland, since most of them have the same bag of tactics.

Richirich713:


Next His next tactics are going to be insults and mocking, after that comes the deliberate lies to add emotion to his claims.

Then maybe start quoting bible verses out of context, giving a interpretation no bible scholar gives, run with, add emotional words(rape, murder) ,repeat the same things over and over, then afterwards go back to the multiple gods argument.

Conclusion, it's very unlikely you going to have a intelligent discussion with an atheist on nairaland, since most of them have the same bag of tactics.

Thank you !

Dalaman comes to mind . Where the heck is he by the way I hope he did not drown in a pool of beer .

KingEbukasBlog:
I've always maintained that God is an embodiment of moral good and is not subject to his own laws . If we study the bible closely , it appears that God "disobeys" His own laws . The argument has been God makes laws for us, but seems to disobey those laws Himself. If this is true, so it is argued, God demands more of us than He does of Himself. Let’s explore this argument to test its validity.

Basic Elements of Law


1. Authority.

Law, by its very nature, requires a few basic elements. First, there must be an established authority to make the law. In the case of federal law, the United States consists of branches of duly elected representatives of the people who pass and enforce laws. When it comes to natural law, there are no written ordinances, but the authority that established the principles that govern nature (i.e. God) put them in place by virtue of the fact that He created nature and so has the right to order it as He pleases (cf. Jer. 33:25). Divine Law that is given by revelation is higher than any human law. It is not set by man although many laws of man derive their authority from divine law—and thus from God Himself. Just as God made the elements of the natural world with the laws that govern them, God made man as a spiritual being and He alone holds the ultimate authority to regulate his behavior (Ps. 119:105).

2. Rules.

A second element common to all law is some type of rules or regulations. All laws mandate certain things that must operate a certain way. A system without rules is said to be lawless. Any system that is governed by law operates within set rules and guidelines. It could be a speed limit. The law mandates “70 miles per hour” as the maximum speed at which a vehicle can travel on a certain road. It could be behavior. It is a crime to steal. Law BooksThe nature of the rules depends upon the nature of the thing regulated. In some cases the authority that enforces the rule is understood to stand outside of the rule. The highway patrolman who exceeds 70 miles per hour is not guilty if he does this to catch a driver who is speeding. The policeman that confiscates stolen property is not a thief. Part of their authority exempts them from some measure of accountability to the very laws they must enforce.

3. Jurisdiction.

A third element of all law is jurisdiction. For law to have meaning there must be some realm over which a given law has dominion. The ancient laws of the Hittite empire may be curious relics of antiquity but they no longer hold any power because there is no longer a Hittite empire. The realm and the region over which these laws once held power no longer exists. In regional governments the issue of jurisdiction is paramount. The authority of one state cannot enforce its laws on the citizens of another because it does not have jurisdiction. By the same token, if I violate a practice that is considered criminal in another jurisdiction, but is permitted within the county, state, or country where I live I am not guilty. A good example of this is the burka worn by Muslim women. A woman in the United States is not a criminal if she refuses to wear a burka even though it is required by law in countries such as Saudi Arabia.

4. Subjects.

Finally, in a very similar way, all law must involve subjects—that is, those who are under obligation to that law. We as Nigerians are obligated to obey the laws of our nation because we are properly subjects of the government which holds authority over us, and thus subject to its laws.


God’s Relationship to His Own Laws

1. Laws of Nature.

As we all know God is the authority who established these laws. There are set rules that define these laws. Laws of gravity demand that a rock falls to the ground—it doesn’t float up into the sky. Is God within the jurisdiction of natural law? A key difference between the picture of the God of the Bible and the concepts of pagan false religions is what is called transcendence. Greek GodsThe God of the Bible exists outside of the natural realm that He created. In other words, while Zeus, or Anubis, or Odin were themselves subject to certain laws of nature, the God of the Bible stands outside of the jurisdiction of natural laws. He is the “unmoved Mover.” He is the First Cause of all things! That means He can make an ax-head float (2 Kings 6:5-6). He can make time stand still (Josh. 10:12-13). He can make the shadow of the sundial go backwards (2 Kings 20:10-11). He is not under the jurisdiction of natural law, but very atom within this present universe, together with every soul made in His image is. They are subjects of the natural laws that God established over His creation. Because God transcends the natural universe, He is not a subject of His own creation, and is therefore not subject to the laws that govern it.

2. Moral or Religious Law.

What about moral or religious laws? There is an interesting example that concerns the Sabbath commandment. The rules required that no ordinary work was to be done on the seventh day (Exod. 20:10). This was a law that was not given until the Law of Moses was revealed (Neh. 9:14). It was a law that was not restated under the Law of Christ (Col. 2:16). That means that those who worked on the seventh day before the Law of Moses, as well as those who now live under Christ, and even those who were not a part of the Mosaic covenant during the time of the Israelite commonwealth were outside of its jurisdiction and were not, therefore, subject to its regulation. What about God? This law was drawn from what was said about God’s creation (Exod. 20:11). The present universe was made in six days, but Scripture tells us that after this was done, God “rested on the seventh day from all the work which He had done” (Gen. 2:2). Even before this was given as a law to the Israelites, God is said to have “blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it” (Gen. 2:3). The Hebrew writer, in one sense speaks of God’s works being “finished from the foundation of the world” (Heb. 4:3-4), but Jesus, when criticized for healing on the Sabbath said, “My Father has been working until now, and I have being working” (John 5:16-17). Did God violate His own Sabbath law? No. He stood outside of its jurisdiction and like those before and after the Law of Moses, He was not subject to its regulation.


3. Genocide.

This may seem reasonable when we are talking about things like the Sabbath law, but what is most frequently criticized is God’s treatment of His creation. That is, He commands us not to murder, but then He has commanded the extermination of the Canaanites, and Amalekites. Or, He commands us not to harm one another but He promises to punish the wicked throughout all eternity. Is He breaking His own laws in these examples? What are the basic elements of law in these examples? God is, once again, the established authority and He has set the rules that govern appropriate behavior. Yet, has God defined all taking of life as wrong? No! It is true that man is not to avenge himself (Rom. 12:19), and God condemns murder (Exod. 20:13), but He grants to the civil authority the right to punish even to the point of death those guilty of certain laws (Rom. 13:4). Is the executioner a murderer? No. Like the policeman who speeds to catch someone speeding, the executioner in his authority to carry out punishment is (to a measure) exempt from accountability to the law he is enforcing (cf. Num. 35:27). God on some specific occasions commanded Israel (in essence) to act as His executioner (Deut. 7:1-5; 25:17-19; 1 Sam. 15:1-5). The Canaanites and Amalekites were among some of the most wicked people that history has every known (Deut. 9:4; Ps. 106:34-37). God bore with their wickedness for a time in order to give them time to repent (cf. Gen. 15:16). When the time came, He used Israel as the vehicle by which He ended their ability to do any more wickedness. Did He violate His own law? No. First, because He was never under the jurisdiction of this law, nor a subject to obey it, but also because the people whom He used to carry out His punishment were not violating any divine law themselves. They were carrying out lawful punishment—in this case in the form of warfare.

4. Eternal Punishment.

What about eternal punishment? The issue of jurisdiction is applicable to this question as well. God is not under the jurisdiction of the laws He has set for His creation. When Judgment Day comes the nature of the present jurisdiction will be changed. What rules will govern the age to come? The jurisdiction of the realm of the saved will not be the same as the jurisdiction of the realm of the condemned. For example, to some measure, in that age the present laws of nature will be changed. In the jurisdiction of the saved there will be no more death, nor sorrow, nor pain because for them “the former things have passed away” (Rev. 21:4). On the other hand, some of these things will exist for the lost—“the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever” (Rev. 14:11). Is it cruel for God to punish the wicked eternally? Let’s consider this from another angle. If I create something—a piece of pottery, a bird house, a painting, or a machine—what rights do I have over that thing I have created? Am I cruel to the pottery if I reshape it into another vessel? (cf. Jer. 18:5-6). Have I sinned against the bird house if I decide to use it for something else? If the machine turns out to be dangerous, am I a monster if I make certain it is kept away from ever causing any harm to anyone ever again? No.

In our creation it is God that formed the molecules and synaptic responses that form our physical bodies (Ps. 139:13-16). We are His creation—He can do with us as He pleases. God asked Judah, “can I not do to you as this potter?” (Jer. 18:6). Above all other creatures in this universe, He has blessed us by placing within us a spirit that is said to be in His image (Gen. 1:26-27)—we are from this point onward eternal creatures (Eccl. 3:11). That is a blessing! But it is a blessing that demands responsibility. The nature and demands of God are such that all creatures that bear His likeness must conform to His law. For those who fail in this (which is to say all who are morally accountable in age and ability) He has made provision for this failure by the atonement of Christ. What is God to do with those of His creation whom He has made eternal who remain in rebellion to His authority and refuse His regulation? Since He is not a subject of His own law, and therefore not under the jurisdiction of His own authority we cannot even compare any action He takes to punish wrong with committing wrong—remember the executioner is not a murderer. Confiscation is not theft. Those who reject the gospel of Christ establish themselves as a type of eternally dangerous machine that must be forever put where it can never harm the subjects of God’s kingdom ever again—that is essentially what hell is. Is this cruel on God’s part? No, it is His right as Creator and the transcendent authority over His creation.

Reference : http://focusmagazine.org/does-god-violate-his-own-laws.php

cc : winner01 , Joshthefirst , bxcode , MrPresident1, gatiano , unphilaz , Muafrika2, mykohayz Richirich713, MrsPhyno, sukkot, OLAADEGBU , vooks, UyiIredia , Scholar8200, Jeromejnr , plaetton, DeepSight , malvisguy212 Kay17 , PastorAIO , Rawblings , Ayomikun37

I love this bro. God bless you.

Logicbwoy:
Do you know what we call people who make laws for others but different laws for themselves?


HYPOCRITES

before you post this comment, you should've ask yourself, what is the purpose of Law.

KingEbukasBlog:


This is a blatant non sequitur ( sonofLucifer you started using this after I used it first , you are indeed a good student ) , are you PastorAIO in disguise ?

Smh.

malvisguy212:
before you post this comment, you should've ask yourself, what is the purpose of Law.

The law was made for man and not man made for the law

hifaif1:


Is Satan not a child of God?

No. Neither are the children of satan. All those who don't believe in Jesus are not the children of God.

"You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, you believe me not" (John 8:44-45).

MrPresident1:


Scholar8200 and KingEbukasBlog, please explain to me why Jesus Christ (God) had to come and die.

You guys are just unbelievable!

This is preposterous!

jesus being born under the law is a choice, the bible say "although He is God He humble himself as a servant". When jesus say in Matthew 5:19 the righteousness of those entering the kingdom must surpass that of the teachers of the Law, do you believe jesus is under the Law ?

Logicbwoy:

The law was made for man and not man made for the law

so...?

MrPresident1:


You tell your son not to drink, yet you are a chronic drunkard.
You tell your son not to beat his sister, yet your wife is your punching bag.
You tell junior not to keep late nights, yet you are a night crawler.
You tell your child not to steal, yet you live above your means, he knows you are one of the treasury looters.


OLAADEGBU, is your middle name HYPOCRISY?

God's moral standard is perfection. He has the absolute morality that anyone and everyone should look up to so get off your moral high throne. When it comes to morality it is true that we have to be good examples to our children but that is different from parents setting house rules. The fact that parents set rules for their children's bedtime at 8 doesn't mean the parents should be subject to the same rule. Don't you get it?

PastorAIO:


You started with the metaphor of God as a parent and humanity as kids.

Who said that God is the parent of the children of satan? You must be confusing yourself. I said we as parents set house rules for our children, I don't know about you.

PastorAIO:


Now you come with this stupidity. Are the so called moral laws not meant for all humans or are they only meant for 'his children'? If you know you have no answers for his questions then it's better to just shut up.

Meanwhile….

God's moral laws are meant for humanity but it is only by becoming children of God that you will obtain the grace to live by them. But the fool always says in his heart that 'there is no God'.

To become a child of God visit this site: www.NeedGod.com

KingEbukasBlog:


I wonder why people like uncle plaetton would contravene this beautiful piece .

The main reason why they would like to contravene reality is because they like to persist in their sinful lifestyle.

Can someone please make an attempt to answer this question?

PastorAIO:
On what do you base your confidence on all the promises of your religious doctrines?
You claim that they were given to you by a being that is not bound by any moral boundaries. How then can you have trust in him?

Joshthefirst:
How many times does he have to repeat that he is an embodiment of moral good. That he is not bound by any moral boundaries doesn't invalidate the character of his person.

This is oxymoronic.

You are saying it isn't bound by it's character. If it isn't bound by it's character and does something outside that character then it is no longer of that character.

To not be bound by moral boundaries means you are not an embodiment of those moral boundaries.

OLAADEGBU:


No. Neither are the children of satan. All those who don't believe in Jesus are not the children of God.

"You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, you believe me not" (John 8:44-45).

But I don't believe in Jesus and Satan. That makes me the son of who?

KingEbukasBlog:
I've always maintained that God is an embodiment of moral good and is not subject to his own laws . If we study the bible closely , it appears that God "disobeys" His own laws .

Please can you give us an example of where it appears that 'God "disobeys" His own laws', yet does not actually disobey them.

KingEbukasBlog:


Greek GodsThe God of the Bible exists outside of the natural realm that He created. In other words, while Zeus, or Anubis, or Odin were themselves subject to certain laws of nature, the God of the Bible stands outside of the jurisdiction of natural laws.

Please what laws was Odin subject to? Or even Zeus?

Then also what about the law that says that those with inferior weaponry cannot prevail against those with superior weaponry in war.


And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
Judges 1 : 19

hifaif1:


But I don't believe in Jesus and Satan. That makes me the son of who?

By not believing in Jesus Christ you make yourself a child of the devil, whether you believe in satan or not.

whytetyre:

By not believing in Jesus Christ you make yourself a child of the devil, whether you believe in satan or not.

Not believing in Jesus makes me a child of Satan whether I believe in him or not? That sounds absurd!!! Why must I believe in Jesus!!! I don't know him from anywhere. He is not from my hometown. He is not even from my country. I have never seen him before just as I have never seen Aladdin or Zeus. If he wants me to believe in him, why can't he show himself to me? If Thomas could doubt him why can't I? Same goes to Satan. I don't know him.