Gbola5:


Imagine this; Have you ever wondered why a piece of paper, has so much value, why people crave for it, when confidence in money falls, it loses its value. Justice, mercy, duty...power, people have got to believe them or what's the point. Its a trick, a shadow on the wall.

Great! But you see, in real life (as GOT tries to depict) power changes hands and the people who weild it change due to factors. Allegiance, justice, mercy, duty all come with power (pls note that power includes influence when discussed holistically).

And about you saying she'd be allowed to rule if she knows her stuff. Seriously? In kings landing? Who knows if she knows her stuff? She would have supporters but she'd def have as many questioning her every move. Hell, some don't even care if she knows her stuff, they just want to elevate themselves( high septon) or retain the throne(tywin) or simply selfishly accrue more power( baelish).

semitunde:


I agree with you that maturity isn't restricted to age, even though you have to agree that this holds true only from some agreed age forward. What is that age? 10? 15? Open to debate.

But beyond this, wielding power and allegiance is depend end on so many other factors apart from age and maturity, and even more so when such age is on the low side ( see joffery and tommen); now like I said, its dependent on many factors hence an old man like Ned and the baratheons can fall while trying to weild same power. This I think is the essence of varys words- that you cannot actually determines who and what wields power at a particular point, its the end that justifies and gives legitimacy to the means.

Like cersei said after threatening someone ( can't remember who now) "power is power". Its regardless of who wields it or how.

Even dany without her dragons won't have lasted this long, and you bet she's more mature than the little lady.

She threatened Baelish.

goxx:
The day a girl curves me like Sansa Stark did to little finger is the day i turn gay.
Moreover, with all your arguments, how comes no one is seeing that Tyrion is beginning to have feelings for Queen Danny?

Tyrion?...Feelings?...For Dany? How did you come to this conclusion?

For you guys questioning nihilist's prognosis; can any of you picture lady Mormon and battle of widlfire? Will she be with the imp motivating people ( and ultimately fighting), or with her mother, couched up under her, right before tywin opened the palace doors?

Would she even be allowed to go negotiations ala battle of bastereds ( she wasn't in the real fight).

What role would she have played had she been a queen in westeros during the battle of wildfire?

Also, consider the situation when tywin held a meeting of the small council in his office instead of the council chamber and didn't invite joffery the king; in spite of joffery's protestations and weyrey; he was still made to understand- in more eaye than one that he's also just the grandson, and probably a foolish one at that.

If Lady Mormont was in this situation, what would have happened differently?

Cc.blackjack21, gbola5

oyetpel:

Guy you need to think, nobody said they should be putting 3 months later. GoT manage time frame and time travel from season 1 to 5. Season 6 was just were writers intend to put characters wherever they like and also put in some elements of surprise, like Arya serving at the twins. Arya's journey to Braavos for example, we all saw how she boarded a ship to braavos. Ned and King Robert entourage we all saw as they went through king's road and how dramas ensued. Transportation of Tyrion in a box to pentos. But season 6 some characters were just placed wherever they want them to be without accounting for time travel. Please if you no get wetin i dey talk just shut up and dont quote with your shiit that do i expect them to write 3 months later.

There is no need to result to petty insults. Its a discussion. All he is saying is that some character's journey don't need much emphasis. When GOT elaborates on a journey, its because there is a dialog or event in that journey that is crucial to the story. What would Sam and Gilly's conversations be like. We all say what it was on the ship. So I don't think showing the journey was crucial. The same can be said of Varys'

JhyMedex:

U got D ryt of it man...
D way he kept looking at her b4 she gave him dt pin sha...
Come y every male in D show gaz fall in luv wit khaleesi?...

This is why we get rejected by most o the girls we woo. Because we misread looks. Don't think it was love bro.

Nihilist:


Most definitely.

It makes absolutely no sense at all, that the fighting men of Bear island, and their captain should entrust their lives into the hands of a 10 year old who doesn't even know what battle is....regardless of any obligations to honour, creed etc.

Like I keep pointing out to people, her decision to back Jon snow was a disaster..and I don't believe it's a coincidence that it was a child who sent her men to their death while the older mature Lords wisely abstained.

The older Lords were all very specific about their motives: which was to preserve the lives of their men.

Whereas this child put some bullshit ideology over the lives of 62 men who had no say in the matter.

I think thar people are so happy to have Jon Snow in the driving seat for S7 that they failed to ask several questions.

1. What leverage does Jon Snow have? He's still a bastard(his true parentage has not been revealed to the North), he's known to be tactically inept in military battles, and more importantly....HE HAS PRACTICALLY NO MEN LEFT.

2. How is it that when that gobby child was going on and on about the king in the north, blah blah, nobody pointed out the points raised in Q1 to her?

3. More pertinently, how did no one point out that it was the Knights of the Vale who won the battle against the boltons, and thus them who should be at the heart of trophies new Nothern coalition ?

That scene made zero sense to me. I cannot pledge my fighting men to a general who has no rank, no men, and no tactical acumen...and this was why I expected at least one lord to rise up and educate that loudmouthed girl and her no-nothing oga.

1. He was lord commander of the nights watch which is not a small honor..Lord mormont had d same and he was a known man...He has Stark blood as d good lady Mormont later pointed out. He is a highly skilled swordfighter as Ramsey himself attested to it, from the words of both his friends and enemies, and he might not be such a good tactician his emotions failed him at d battle of the bastards and datz just it.

2.They all swore alliegance to house stark and still refused d call, she didnt honor makes them lesser men, before her till they redeem themselves, sense also cos her specific words to them about what d boltons did to them still they didnt rise up above them is enough to make dem meek.

3.Jon said it all and i quote " Freefolk, the Northerners and the knights of the vale fought bravely, fought together and we won...my father used to say we find our true friends at the battle field" what more do u want songs will be sung of that battle in years to come everybody knows they swung the winning sword.....the rest of the northerners dont need that knowledge rubbed on their faces.....

siempere:

1. He was lord commander of the nights watch which is not a small honor..Lord mormont had d same and he was a known man...He has Stark blood as d good lady Mormont later pointed out. He is a highly skilled swordfighter as Ramsey himself attested to it, from the words of both his friends and enemies, and he might not be such a good tactician his emotions failed him at d battle of the bastards and datz just it.
2.They all swore alliegance to house stark and still refused d call, she didnt honor makes them lesser men, before her till they redeem themselves, sense also cos her specific words to them about what d boltons did to them still they didnt rise up above them is enough to make dem meek.
3.Jon said it all and i quote " Freefolk, the Northerners and the knights of the vale fought bravely, fought together and we won...my father used to say we find our true friends at the battle field" what more do u want songs will be sung of that battle in years to come everybody knows they swung the winning sword.....the rest of the northerners dont need that knowledge rubbed on their faces.....

Thank you

Endy10:


There is no need to result to petty insults. Its a discussion. All he is saying is that some character's journey don't need much emphasis. When GOT elaborates on a journey, its because there is a dialog or event in that journey that is crucial to the story. What would Sam and Gilly's conversations be like. We all say what it was on the ship. So I don't think showing the journey was crucial. The same can be said of Varys'

Was frustrated when the guy said should they write 3 months later like naija movies, and another one saying some people want GoT to be showing them when Dany wakes in the morning, eat breakfast and other sh!t to i got to replied that in their face. But my point is even if there is no dialog during road travel or characters going to other places, they should just depict it somehow. Can you imagine someone here even said the Iron Island (Pyke) is not far from Meeren, and that's how Yara and Theon got to Meeren so fast. Another thing is if you watch closely lack of reportage in time travel started in season 6. So maybe its because they didn't have G.R.R.M book 6 and they were also twisting and doing hollywood on characters

oyetpel:

Was frustrated when the guy said should they write 3 months later like naija movies, and another one saying some people want GoT to be showing them when Dany wakes in the morning, eat breakfast and other sh!t to i got to replied that in their face. But my point is even if there is no dialog during road travel or characters going to other places, they should just depict it somehow. Can you imagine someone here even said the Iron Island (Pyke) is not far from Meeren, and that's how Yara and Theon got to Meeren so fast. Another thing is if you watch closely lack of reportage in time travel started in season 6. So maybe its because they didn't have G.R.R.M book 6 and they were also twisting and doing hollywood on characters

I concur @bolded

Nihilist:


Most definitely.

It makes absolutely no sense at all, that the fighting men of Bear island, and their captain should entrust their lives into the hands of a 10 year old who doesn't even know what battle is....regardless of any obligations to honour, creed etc.

Like I keep pointing out to people, her decision to back Jon snow was a disaster..and I don't believe it's a coincidence that it was a child who sent her men to their death while the older mature Lords wisely abstained.

The older Lords were all very specific about their motives: which was to preserve the lives of their men.

Whereas this child put some bullshit ideology over the lives of 62 men who had no say in the matter.

I think thar people are so happy to have Jon Snow in the driving seat for S7 that they failed to ask several questions.

1. What leverage does Jon Snow have? He's still a bastard(his true parentage has not been revealed to the North), he's known to be tactically inept in military battles, and more importantly....HE HAS PRACTICALLY NO MEN LEFT.

2. How is it that when that gobby child was going on and on about the king in the north, blah blah, nobody pointed out the points raised in Q1 to her?

3. More pertinently, how did no one point out that it was the Knights of the Vale who won the battle against the boltons, and thus them who should be at the heart of trophies new Nothern coalition ?

That scene made zero sense to me. I cannot pledge my fighting men to a general who has no rank, no men, and no tactical acumen...and this was why I expected at least one lord to rise up and educate that loudmouthed girl and her no-nothing oga.

We are used to GOT being so realistic in its art as in is attention to details that we sometimes forget its fiction written by a brilliant mind. And for which now has to be written by less brilliant minds. The artistry covers up for these detects re though.

siempere:

1. He was lord commander of the nights watch which is not a small honor..Lord mormont had d same and he was a known man...He has Stark blood as d good lady Mormont later pointed out. He is a highly skilled swordfighter as Ramsey himself attested to it, from the words of both his friends and enemies, and he might not be such a good tactician his emotions failed him at d battle of the bastards and datz just it.

2.They all swore alliegance to house stark and still refused d call, she didnt honor makes them lesser men, before her till they redeem themselves, sense also cos her specific words to them about what d boltons did to them still they didnt rise up above them is enough to make dem meek.

3.Jon said it all and i quote " Freefolk, the Northerners and the knights of the vale fought bravely, fought together and we won...my father used to say we find our true friends at the battle field" what more do u want songs will be sung of that battle in years to come everybody knows they swung the winning sword.....the rest of the northerners dont need that knowledge rubbed on their faces.....

Nihilist, this gentleman has answered you correctly.

siempere:

1. He was lord commander of the nights watch which is not a small honor..Lord mormont had d same and he was a known man...He has Stark blood as d good lady Mormont later pointed out. He is a highly skilled swordfighter as Ramsey himself attested to it, from the words of both his friends and enemies, and he might not be such a good tactician his emotions failed him at d battle of the bastards and datz just it.

2.They all swore alliegance to house stark and still refused d call, she didnt honor makes them lesser men, before her till they redeem themselves, sense also cos her specific words to them about what d boltons did to them still they didnt rise up above them is enough to make dem meek.

3.Jon said it all and i quote " Freefolk, the Northerners and the knights of the vale fought bravely, fought together and we won...my father used to say we find our true friends at the battle field" what more do u want songs will be sung of that battle in years to come everybody knows they swung the winning sword.....the rest of the northerners dont need that knowledge rubbed on their faces.....

Good points. But you also have to admit that was the direction of the writters. Margery probably had a better plan than Jon but we'll never know...

The writer hinged Jon's win of the bastard battle on one thing, luck.

semitunde:


Good points. But you also have to admit that was the direction of the writters. Margery probably had a better plan than Jon but we'll never know...

The writer hinged Jon's win of the bastard battle on one thing, luck.

...Yeah...but thats why this is a great show....they try their best to make it realistic.....people make great plans and die before accomplishing them.....if u dont put it down in writing or pass it on to a second.....it becomes lost and useless...About Jon snow...wheda luck or destiny.....i can't point to the north of it...even GRRM once gave an indication he was his wife's best character in d books....

semitunde:
For you guys questioning nihilist's prognosis; can any of you picture lady Mormon and battle of widlfire? Will she be with the imp motivating people ( and ultimately fighting), or with her mother, couched up under her, right before tywin opened the palace doors?

Would she even be allowed to go negotiations ala battle of bastereds ( she wasn't in the real fight).

What role would she have played had she been a queen in westeros during the battle of wildfire?

Also, consider the situation when tywin held a meeting of the small council in his office instead of the council chamber and didn't invite joffery the king; in spite of joffery's protestations and weyrey; he was still made to understand- in more eaye than one that he's also just the grandson, and probably a foolish one at that.
If Lady Mormont was in this situation, what would have happened differently?
Cc.blackjack21, gbola5

Joffrey didn't attend council meetings because he never felt the need too. If he wanted no one would stop him. Well she's to young to be in the real fight, but that doesn't equal crouching behind her mother's
skirts. If you can come up with a scenerio in which she was queen, would there be a Battle of Blackwater ? The events that lead up to it would be changed in that scenrio.

oyetpel:
If you don't know something don't jump into it. Mumu.

I didn't know what I said wrong that makes you resort to insults.
Rise your arguments.

siempere:

1. He was lord commander of the nights watch which is not a small honor..Lord mormont had d same and he was a known man...He has Stark blood as d good lady Mormont later pointed out. He is a highly skilled swordfighter as Ramsey himself attested to it, from the words of both his friends and enemies, and he might not be such a good tactician his emotions failed him at d battle of the bastards and datz just it.

2.They all swore alliegance to house stark and still refused d call, she didnt honor makes them lesser men, before her till they redeem themselves, sense also cos her specific words to them about what d boltons did to them still they didnt rise up above them is enough to make dem meek.

3.Jon said it all and i quote " Freefolk, the Northerners and the knights of the vale fought bravely, fought together and we won...my father used to say we find our true friends at the battle field" what more do u want songs will be sung of that battle in years to come everybody knows they swung the winning sword.....the rest of the northerners dont need that knowledge rubbed on their faces.....

Jon didnt win the battle, Vale knights did.
Jon has no men, the Vale boys do.

It makes no sense that the lords of the north would trust their men to a reckless commander who had to be rescued by another house.

I mean, if even Sansa can't trust the dullard, how on earth are the nothern lords so eager to trust him...especially after a disastrous battle?

Surely, this point I'm making is pretty obvious no?

blackjack21:

I didn't know what I said wrong that makes you resort to insults.
Rise your arguments.

"Like seriously, some people want all scene to be shown, like what Danny ate in the morning, who prepared the breakfast, how the went to market and bought things. What ship lord Vary traveling in, who was the captain, did vary eat in his cabin or on deck? if thing went that way, will still be in S01E01 :\ na waw for some feefu." Si i put it in your fu¢king face.

Nihilist:


Jon didnt win the battle, Vale knights did.
Jon has no men, the Vale boys do.

It makes no sense that the lords of the north would trust their men to a reckless commander who had to be rescued by another house.

I mean, if even Sansa can't trust the dullard, how on earth are the nothern lords so eager to trust him...especially after a disastrous battle?

Surely, this point I'm making is pretty obvious no?

Yoi are making sh!t up actually.

oyetpel:

Yoi are making sh!t up actually.

I won't tolerate any kind of passive aggresive shade thrown my way.

Keep the talk strictly on GOT or dont quote me. final warning

Nihilist:

I won't tolerate any kind of passive aggresive shade thrown my way.
Keep the talk strictly on GOT or dont quote me. final warning

loooool, sorry.

oyetpel:
Really? Abeg forward the line there, pls.

What line ?

Nihilist:


Jon didnt win the battle, Vale knights did.
Jon has no men, the Vale boys do.

It makes no sense that the lords of the north would trust their men to a reckless commander who had to be rescued by another house.

I mean, if even Sansa can't trust the dullard, how on earth are the nothern lords so eager to trust him...especially after a disastrous battle?

Surely, this point I'm making is pretty obvious no?

Capital NO ur point is not obvious to me at all....but i can't argue further tnks...

Gbola5:


What line ?

I mean where you read it in the books or conversations that Jon and Sansa have witnessed a winter before, but it was short.

semitunde:


I agree with you that maturity isn't restricted to age, even though you have to agree that this holds true only from some agreed age forward. What is that age? 10? 15? Open to debate.

But beyond this, wielding power and allegiance is depend end on so many other factors apart from age and maturity, and even more so when such age is on the low side ( see joffery and tommen); now like I said, its dependent on many factors hence an old man like Ned and the baratheons can fall while trying to weild same power. This I think is the essence of varys words- that you cannot actually determines who and what wields power at a particular point, its the end that justifies and gives legitimacy to the means.

Like cersei said after threatening someone ( can't remember who now) "power is power". Its regardless of who wields it or how.

Even dany without her dragons won't have lasted this long, and you bet she's more mature than the little lady.

Cersei was wrong. Power is not power

Nihilist:


Most definitely.

It makes absolutely no sense at all, that the fighting men of Bear island, and their captain should entrust their lives into the hands of a 10 year old who doesn't even know what battle is....regardless of any obligations to honour, creed etc.

Like I keep pointing out to people, her decision to back Jon snow was a disaster..and I don't believe it's a coincidence that it was a child who sent her men to their death while the older mature Lords wisely abstained.

The older Lords were all very specific about their motives: which was to preserve the lives of their men.

Whereas this child put some bullshit ideology over the lives of 62 men who had no say in the matter.

I think thar people are so happy to have Jon Snow in the driving seat for S7 that they failed to ask several questions.

1. What leverage does Jon Snow have? He's still a bastard(his true parentage has not been revealed to the North), he's known to be tactically inept in military battles, and more importantly....HE HAS PRACTICALLY NO MEN LEFT.

2. How is it that when that gobby child was going on and on about the king in the north, blah blah, nobody pointed out the points raised in Q1 to her?

3. More pertinently, how did no one point out that it was the Knights of the Vale who won the battle against the boltons, and thus them who should be at the heart of trophies new Nothern coalition ?

That scene made zero sense to me. I cannot pledge my fighting men to a general who has no rank, no men, and no tactical acumen...and this was why I expected at least one lord to rise up and educate that loudmouthed girl and her no-nothing oga.

You seem to be saying the same thing, and based on hindsight. You're no longer asking why they follow young leaders, but why they followed Jon. It was a gamble.

semitunde:
For you guys questioning nihilist's prognosis; can any of you picture lady Mormon and battle of widlfire? Will she be with the imp motivating people ( and ultimately fighting), or with her mother, couched up under her, right before tywin opened the palace doors?

Would she even be allowed to go negotiations ala battle of bastereds ( she wasn't in the real fight).

What role would she have played had she been a queen in westeros during the battle of wildfire?

Also, consider the situation when tywin held a meeting of the small council in his office instead of the council chamber and didn't invite joffery the king; in spite of joffery's protestations and weyrey; he was still made to understand- in more eaye than one that he's also just the grandson, and probably a foolish one at that.

If Lady Mormont was in this situation, what would have happened differently?

Cc.blackjack21, gbola5

I honestly don't know, and neither do you. i can only assume so can you, and our assumption might be right or wrong. since we can't be sure then, we can't use our assumption to judge the situations.

all the questions you asked there are paradoxes.
we cant know for sure what, but certainly lady Mormont isn't of military age for her to be able to lead her forces into battles, but certainly she can lead them in battles just like the way little finger, who can barely wield a sword led the Vale' knights.

Aye, wars are won by fighting men, but they need the leadership, they need that speech that will give them a tumncent glow: and they have lady Mormont.

Guys i don't think Sansa is even considering LFs offer, oh not at all..she knows first hand what an evil crook that snake is, y'all heard her " only a fool would trust little finger". LF hasnt succeeded in planting any seed of doubt anywhere around Sansa. The safest place for her to be right now is with Jon, she also told Brienne Jon is the ONLY PERSON she trusts, she also apologised for not letting Jon in on her arrangement with LF.

Jon never campaigned for any position he's got, people love his leadership style even though some of us consider him too emotional...he's still a Stark, the Starks are in charge of the North. All Jon wants is a United North, his intentions are clear but Lady Fierce aka Lyanna wants him to lead because he's the only surviving male member of house Stark. Jon just needs to put his shiiit together and stop making more mistakes like Ser Davos advised..lol

Gbola5:

Cersei was wrong. Power is not power

Power is what men makes it to be, power is an illusion. thus power can be anything.
you said you that a while ago.

blackjack21:


Power is what men makes it to be, power is an illusion.
thus power can be anything.

you said you that a while ago.

Yes, its an illusion. So how can power be power. What is power in the first place ?

siempere:
...Yeah...but thats why this is a great show....they try their best to make it realistic.....people make great plans and die before accomplishing them.....if u dont put it down in writing or pass it on to a second.....it becomes lost and useless...About Jon snow...wheda luck or destiny.....i can't point to the north of it...even GRRM once gave an indication he was his wife's best character in d books....

True. His wife's favorite character is Arya though.

Feeling this babe ✅