lexiconkabir:


I'll teach you how to quote(the way i do) if you like dont say thank you this time.....kidding

Highlight on the particular statement you want to comment on, click on that sticker symbol before the first smiley, and that's it! Comment after the "" then after commenting, go on to the next statement, highlight it and do same, until you get to the last statement, simple!

Empiree:
You see, the problem is to even imagine @underlined. Qur'an says some muslims know better than the other. @underlined is the argument used to silent them. It doesn't make sense to me bcus those true Alfas dont claim such.

There are duas in the hadith with counts tags on them. Usually some of the hadith would mention the benefits. Sometimes they dont. These types of ahadith are usually not found in the Sahih Bukhari and Muslims. This is very simple sister. Hadith is collection. Prophet (saw) did not say to follow Sahih Bukhari. He said "follow my sunnah". There are clearly some ahadith with mention of reciting shahada xyz amounts. As for me, if someone recommends me to recite shahada 100x day for xyz result, i dont pay attention to xyz result. I pay attention to shahada itself. Why is that difficult?. Allah gives rewards he wants. If someone says it brings xyz benefits, I simply discount that and move on. [b]It doesnt mean bid'ah. Nothing is bid'ah if it has isnad in the Qur'an. There are duas in the hadith mentioned with benefits

Again, this goes back to just names. So far, you have not tell me exactly what "Alu ifa are doing. You said earlier they do shirk. Now you seems to divert a little. Whats going on? If they prescribe recitation of certain ayah for number of counts, that's not bid'ah. Counts have isnad in Hadith, The ayah they prescribed has isnad in the Qur'an. There is huge difference btw reading texting and practising what the text says. You only experience the reality (Hakiqah) through practicing not by reading text.

lexiconkabir:


Empiree whats the definition of bid'ah? Pls i need a straightforward answer.

Contact17:


I am not diverting anything. I am confident in my claims.
I know first hand Alfas that say putting salt at your door step will prevent evil from happening. Will that prevent something Allah has decreed from happening?
I know first hand Alfas that claim things that aren't from the Qur'an or sunnah. For example, is from the sunnah to cut people using razor and rubbing a black powder to offer protection, saying that it would offer protection?
We know from the sunnah of the prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) that specific verses from the Quran that may be recited[b] to seek protection from Allah. [/b]

I know first hand Alfas who claim to know the unseen, predicting other people's affairs when they know not about theirs.

I will leave you with this- The best talk (speech) is Allah's Book 'Qur'an), and the best way is the way of Muhammad, [b]and the worst matters are the heresies (those new things which are introduced into the religion); [/b]and whatever you have been promised will surely come to pass, and you cannot escape (it)(Sahih al-Bukhari 7277).

Ma salam.

Contact17:
"they make us rely on kufar system. When you go to modern hospitals, most of which are non-muslims, you have no idea whats contained in the pills they prescribed to you.Yet you believe them and take the medicines. But you have problems with muslims doing the same even if it is local way?. Understand that those pills and soaps you use contain animal product. This can be pork as well. But we trust them anyways bcus it is "modern",

Modern medicine isn't a Kufar system or do you have evidence that suggests otherwise? There are many Muslims and Muslim countries working hard out there is ensure that they are producing safe medication without using pigs. Usually if a medication contains pork- it will be labelled.
If by using local way you mean herbs, herbs is a form of medication and whoever practices using that should be learned in it.
[size=14pt]Lastly if someone is using herbs to cure then they shouldn't bear the title of an Alfa[/size][size=8pt] because that is something completely different.

Emp.iree

Contact17:
[size=2pt]It was narrated from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The best of the people are my generation, then those who come after them, then those who come after them.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (2652) and Muslim (2533).

It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not revile my companions, for by the One in Whose hand is my soul, if one of you were to spend the equivalent of Uhud in gold, it would not amount to a mudd of one of them, or half of that.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (3673) and Muslim (2540).


It is very important to watch what we say about the companions of the prophet (peace and blessing be upon him). There were among the best people whose level of Iman we will NEVER be able to reach. These were the people who saw the prophet( peace and blessing be upon him) with their eyes, believes his message, were oppreseed for accepting Islam, and fought to have the Islam that we enjoy today.[/size]

For those who care to know.

[size=18pt]herbalist -a dealer in medicinal herbs

Alfa- word for a Muslim scholar (and occasionally any Muslim) not just in Yorubaland but in Nupeland, Borgu, Igalaland, Ebiraland,

Therefore going from that, if someone specializes in using herbs to cure illness, shouldnt be using the title of an Alfa. Alfas aren’t specific to curing illnesses.[/size]

Empiree:
Hahahahaha there you go my brother. I have been there done that. Do you know what gave birth to Aliyu Jabata and his likes? It is the same ideology of those people screaming "Qur'an and Sunnah". When they realized the people are going overboard, they now cooled off to properly give definition of Bid'ah. But before, they said Bidah is bidah, its all going to hell. Now they backtracked. I see that clearly in their lectures lately. Bid'ah is a misunderstood concept that is widely thrown around and exaggerated by every Tom, Dick and Harry.

For short, Bid'ah is any practices that have NO isnad in the Quran(Sharia) or that which is in CLEAR conflict with statement coming out of the prophet. Also, for FIXED RITUALS, that is, our obligatory practices, Salat, Ramadan for example, we cant change their prescribed times. We cant make Fajr 1 rakah or 3 rakat. We cant make zhr, asr and isha 3 or 5 rakat. We cant make Maghrib 2 or 4 rakat. That would be BID"AH.

But your approach however places islam in a cage. This is why muslims rely heavily on foreign medicines while we have ours right there in the Sunnah. Those people claim Sunnah Sunnah Sunnah but got lost when it comes to practical.

Empiree:
see the problem?. Doesnt Quran mentions herbs?. You think herbs is restricted to Babalawo?. That's the mentality you need to cure. But you do take the pills, correct?. What are they made of?. Dont they contain herbs?. We are deceiving ourselves. I work in the medical field. Herbs are for ALL human regardless of professions. What Muslims dont do is to use haram things, like human parts. I think you brothers need broad understanding of the deen.

And you misunderstood "kufar system".I am simply saying they took advantage of what we have abandoned. I thought you would grab that. If we support the locals and build them up rather than condemning them, Nigeria would have got lots more standard medical facilities under islam by now and all alfas on stray part would have been properly coordinated. Condemning the whole thing altogether is not the way to go. What do they achieved by that now?

Empiree:
See the last part?. You dont get it at all and you make me very sad. It is OUR mentality in AFRICA that portrays "herbalists" as the ONLY ones ENTITLED to use herbs. Whereas Qur'an talks about herbs for cure. Hadith talks about herbs for cure. I thought you follow Quran and Sunnah?. A medical practitioner who specializes in urology is referred to as DOCTOR. Another medical practitioner who specializes in heart surgery is also called DOCTOR. It doesn't make difference. Difference btw Alfa & herbalist using herbs for cure is this:

Please be sure to read and digest this carefully before you reply. Thank you

Here Qur'an talks about herbs. Herbs are means or provision provided by Allah. Allah is the only Healer with all the herbal medicines that He created for us. Ever since Adam and children of Adam and after them, the ones whom carried with Noah and then Children of Israel, up to our grand parents, and our parents, Allah was the only source of healing for them. when a person would get sick, would use herbs created by Allah in order to get cure or use Cool Wash treatment as Allah prescribed for Job in the Scientifically proven Arabic Ghor-on, based on mathematics, the exact science.

Sura 38:41-44, Allah tells Job how to cure himself with Cool wash and Herbs.

"And remember Our servant Job, when he called upon his Lord, indeed Satan has afflicted me with hardship and pain.
Hit the ground with your foot. This is a Cool Wash as well as a source of drink.
And We granted him his family and doubled them as a mercy from Us as well as a reminder for those who possess Intelligence.
this Herb in your hand and apply it and do not go wrong. We indeed found him steadfast. He was surely a good servant, he was obedient."


In the hadith:

Prophet Muhammad's (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) firm belief in the existence of a cause and a cure for every disease is described in many ahadith:

"There is no disease that Allah has created, except that He also has created its treatment."



"Make use of medical treatment, for Allah has not made a disease without appointing a remedy for it, with the exception of one disease, name was old age."



"Allah has sent down both the disease and the cure, and He has appointed a cure for every disease, so treat yourselves medically."


"The one who sent down the disease sent down the remedy."


This belief encouraged early Muslims to engage in medical research and seek out cures for diseases known to them.




The Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is believed to have said: “In the black seed is healing for every disease except death.” (Sahih Bukhari)


Within Islam there are many herbs, plants and fruits that are believed to have medicinal and healing properties. Olive, pomegranate, dates and figs are amongst those that are directly mentioned in the Qur’an as blessed foods. However, there is only one that can stake a claim as a super food and that is Black cumin or ‘Habbat ul Sawda’ as it is known in Arabic. According to hadith, the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is believed to have said:


“In the black seed is healing for every disease except death.” (Sahih Bukhari)



These are just tips of iceberg. There are bunch of herbs in the hadith but you said ONLY herbalists should use that. SubhanAllah!. I know it is not your fault. I have liberated myself from such thinking. Herb is herb mentioned in the Quran and any human can use them. It has nothing to do with Herbalists. Try and google many pills that you take and see what they are made of - HERBS, sister HERBS



I LOVE THE SUFIS or the people of tassawuf as they are called. THEY UNDERSTOOD ISLAM IN ITS BROAD CONTEXT and exploit every means. Look throughout the history, they are the ones who embarked on medicinal researche. But today, Ulama put our brain in cage and we can't think outside of that in the name of SHIRK. This has nothing to do with knowing better than Sahaba, subhannaAllah!. I cant believe you would say that. No Muslim, not even waliy of our time have said such.


Now, here is the basic difference between Muslims and herbalists. Say for instance, an herbalist goes to farm to pick up leafs, before he picks them, he may say "eyin Iya mi....e je ko ju mi she o". And after he prepares the "ipese", he says again "eyin iya, e ba mi she bi won she n she ko le ri bo she n ri" bla bla bla.


But a true muslim in this same line would go to the farm, before he picks the leafs, he says "La awla wala kuwata ila billah". And after he prepares the food with leafs (ofcourse the meat or whatever MUST be halal. NOT human parts etc). Then, he prays normal prayer and eat. Thereafter he/she replies on tawakul. He/she MUST belie that it is Allah who cure. Very simple. Why are you brother and sister complicating it?. Or you looking for hadith that specifically describes how to cook it, how to prepare it, how to do this and that?. That's a shame.


Here again, the prophet said


“In the black seed is healing for every disease except death.”

but he did not describe how to. This is where our aql must be put to work. The doctors in modern medical facilities used their brain to do research. That's why they came up with Panadol that you use. Did the prophet give them order?. They simply used their ijtihad which Sahaba used. Why are you people restricting in islam for crying out LOUD?


Let me remind you for the last time that you have been pretty much UNABLE to prove SHIRK those Alu Ifa did. I know of some who brag about charm but that doesn't make them kafir. All you said here was they put salt at the door to prevent this and that. That can only be superstition. You can always discount that. I was expecting you to say "me and my friend went to Alfa and he had a statue he bows to before he attends to us". Or he calls on other than Allah when we got there". That would have been clear cut SHIRK. You better liberate yourself from this. Islam gives use FREEDOM to exploit means by any means necessary SO LONG AS WE DO NOT VIOLATE LA ILAHA ILA ALLAH

lexiconkabir:


No, jabata and his likes says the words of "scholars shouldnt be taken, go to the Quran and sunnah all by yourself", so there is a difference.

Good, now these Alfas say read yasin x200, now reading yasin isnt the problem, but if you have the aqeedah that, reading it x200 is du'a, then that's bid'ah, because bid'ah is ibadah, and any ibadah that do not have isnad to the Quran or sunnah is bid'ah.

Empi.ree, any practice we dont see our pious salafs doing in the past, is pure nonsense, do you understand Islam more than the salafs? The best generation?

Empiree:
He said it before he was Salafi saliheen. Anyways, the whole salafi thing is a joke to me. There are differences within. It is all joke. Saing I am salafi does not automatically make me like the sahaba. Thats the trend now.

Shaking my head,. This is not even a matter of aqeeda. No one said so. No one is under obligation to recite it. Wallahi, you people have a long way to go including myself. You only believe in what you see. XYZ counts have isnad in the Sunna but it is up to individual to or not to. I dont think you have came across hadith which talks about this?. I am not saying this exact 200x but there is a hadith that talks about this. I dont know why you people having trouble with this very simple thing. But do you believe in saying istgfar 3x after every salah?

This is rigidity. Those Ulama who did medical research long after the prophet. And they base their resxearch on ahadith but the hadith does not elaborate. Did the Sahaba did what those Ulama did?. I am talking about way after kulafa rashidun.



Here is homework for you


i - “In the black seed is healing for every disease except death.” (Sahih Bukhari)

Note: dont cheat. it may be easy for you to google procedure because it is already breakdown. But pretend you are seeing this hadith for the first time, how would you utilize the hadith including base on understanding of the sahaba?. Or would you just read it and proud that "prophet said black seed is heeling as many of us just said ?


ii - "There is no disease that Allah has created, except that He also has created its treatment."

Note: How would you know the treatment


iii - "Make use of medical treatment, for Allah has not made a disease without appointing a remedy for it, with the exception of one disease, name was old age."

Note: pretend there is no modern medicine, how would you know how to make use of medical treatment?

lexiconkabir:


Empiree, in time of the prophet, weren't there herbs? Why havent we seen one single account were the prophet goes to the bush, pick leafs and say "la hawla wa la kuwata illa billaah" on it to cure? So are you saying these people know the Quran more than the prophet?

Note, i am not saying using herbs to cure is bad, but what caught my attention is the "la hawla....." Part, who gave them the go ahead to sau this thing on the herb for curing purposes? If you mix herbs normally and it cures people, fine! As far as it is not harmful, we don't have problem with that, but you trying to tie it to Islam is what we wont accept, khalas!

Contact17:
Honestly I stopped discussing the issue with him/her any longer since I raised questions and he/she couldn't answer, but rather started focusing on something else. Then he indirectly started accusing the sahabas of having weak Iman.Then the focus turned to using herbs. I have always stated that if healing is based on the Qur'an and sunnah, then it should be accepted.


"Anyways, theoretical and spiritual approach in islam leads to Jannah. Extremism on both sides are the problems. Read this, I do not expect Rosululah(saw) to enjoin his companions to recite Yasin 200x. If that was the case, they would not embrace islam or they would leave it. We cant compare our weak iman, weak spiritual insight with theirs. A very simple dua of the prophet could solve their problems. But now, in this day and age with atrocities around us, someone comes to you for dua and you tell him to to read Sahih bukhari and recite istighfar 10x and that's?. You kidding. The person wont feel anything at all."

I stopped taking him/her serious after that. I posted hadiths about the status of the sahabas and didn't quote him/her expecting him/her to take it off but it's still there.

Contact17:
Honestly I stopped discussing the issue with him/her any longer since I raised questions and he/she couldn't answer, but rather started focusing on something else. Then he indirectly started accusing the sahabas of having weak Iman.Then the focus turned to using herbs. I have always stated that if healing is based on the Qur'an and sunnah, then it should be accepted.


"Anyways, theoretical and spiritual approach in islam leads to Jannah. Extremism on both sides are the problems. Read this, I do not expect Rosululah(saw) to enjoin his companions to recite Yasin 200x. If that was the case, they would not embrace islam or they would leave it. We cant compare our weak iman, weak spiritual insight with theirs. A very simple dua of the prophet could solve their problems. But now, in this day and age with atrocities around us, someone comes to you for dua and you tell him to to read Sahih bukhari and recite istighfar 10x and that's?. You kidding. The person wont feel anything at all."

I stopped taking him/her serious after that. I posted hadiths about the status of the sahabas and didn't quote him/her expecting him/her to take it off but it's still there.

Empiree:
Subhannalah. I think i have to give up now. Your understanding is now getting ridiculous. Even before you throw out hot water you should "auzubillah". My brother, i think I have to call it over and just watch this thread now. Your understanding of islam, am sorry is very elementary. I can't believe you would say before i touch leaf i why do i have to say la haula walakuwata?. It is over. Any reasonable muslim should know where what I am talking about. And you compare the prophet to us?. That's just too funny.

La haula wakuwata i mentioned earlier was just example and as a form of respect for the leaf itself. Allah knows your intention of the leaf and by saying lahaula walakuwata, you are negating that the leaf itself has no power to solve the problem except by Allah. Brother, this is getting ridiculous I swear. Even before i enter garbage area, if i am a conscious muslim, I must say "auzubillah mina shaytani rojim". Now i see your level and i need to stop talking right away. I will frustrating myself if i go further

Walaikum salaam

Empiree:
Subhannalah. I think i have to give up now. Your understanding is now getting ridiculous. Even before you throw out hot water you should "auzubillah". My brother, i think I have to call it over and just watch this thread now. Your understanding of islam, am sorry is very elementary. I can't believe you would say before i touch leaf i why do i have to say la haula walakuwata?. It is over. Any reasonable muslim should know where what I am talking about. And you compare the prophet to us?. That's just too funny.

La haula wakuwata i mentioned earlier was just example and as a form of respect for the leaf itself. Allah knows your intention of the leaf and by saying lahaula walakuwata, you are negating that the leaf itself has no power to solve the problem except by Allah. Brother, this is getting ridiculous I swear. Even before i enter garbage area, if i am a conscious muslim, I must say "auzubillah mina shaytani rojim". Now i see your level and i need to stop talking right away. I will frustrating myself if i go further

Walaikum salaam

lexiconkabir:


My understanding of your statement, "But a true muslim in this same line would go to the farm, before he picks the leafs, he says "La awla wala kuwata ila billah" is, you are saying these things because you feel saying it brings some sort of cure and i was speaking in that context.

Empiree:
+

lexiconkabir:
And where did i say there is no more ijtihad? You have to read carefully, cuz i noticed you dont, you read my reply with the aim of refuting? Really its not fair.

.

lexiconkabir:



That case ia different, the prophet was around to authenticate what they did, as we know ijtihad is done in cases where we have no ruling from Quran or sunnah, but once there is clear evidence, [size=16pt]no more ijtihad[/size], follow the clear evidence, now in the case of the sahabas the prophet was still receiving wahy, so we cant compare it with today, where the religion is complete.

Empiree:
+

lexiconkabir:


Stop being mischievous, what's the sentence before that? I said once there is a clear evidence, no more ijtihad