shadeyinka:


Why now?

Jezyfreezman:
.
Talkin Demons and Bigwords

shadeyinka:


Trust me, nothing special. Demons are more common than you think. Casting most of them out require no manifestation.

Even, young Christians under tutelage /guidance can cast out demons. Its just about your little faith of cause don't willingly go into sins. Sometimes demons desgrace a sinning christian publicly.

shadeyinka:
I believe you love your Parents and Siblings?
If this is True, what's your Proof?
If Physical Proof is impossible, is the conclusion that "You don't love your Parent"

Think! What could be a sufficient evidence or proof of your love for your beautiful Girlfriend?

[s] God is LOVE! He is NOT subject to Physical laws [/s]

shadeyinka:


I believe that I have not singled out a deliverance and called it false. I am only saying that there are men in suits parading as men of God who claim to be used by God! I would be a hypocritical bigot if I just blindly defend the church without pointing out this flaw. I even pointed out that the fact that things are happening does not mean that God is at work.

Does this not invariably mean it is false @ bold text

LOL. Let's say many are just psychological phenomenon, how do we explain the few realistic but bizire ones?

I am sorry, no offence intended to living faith members: Bishop Oyedepo is not known for deliverance. I have never once seen anyone manifest demons in his ministrations. He is a man of God, I don't doubt that to the limit of my human understanding. His major area of "expertees" is faith and knowledge of the Word.

Every Minister of God have their own calling. He is doing the work of God to the best of his ability.

dblackninja:


You still haven't given me your proof. All you're saying is that there are no proofs for something this huge, then how did you know they're real?? Faith? Smh!

An entity/demon jumping into someone & taking control over their body & all you got as proof are claims

I won't go around again with this again so I will only give you one practical to perform:

dblackninja:

I believe you're a Christian & hold the idea that demons travel from one medium to another.
Next time you go to those deliverances or meet that demonic possessed beautiful girl, willingly tell the demon to possess you & see the results.

Don't fear for this expt. is a win win
- If you're possessed, your pastor will cast it out & you have gotten your proof
-If not, then you have gained some enlightenment & dropped one absurdity.

dblackninja:

& just so you know, if you love your parents, there're physical proofs that can show that love. Same with if that god loves you.
Shalom!

ValentineMary:

Does this not invariably mean it is false @ bold text

ValentineMary:

That's the point. I am yet to see real ones that's why I said many of them. I can't just generalize about everything. And pls don't show me that you tube video up there, I have seen better ones and I am still not convinced. My mother, aunts and sister also used to do those things, but they are nothing out of the ordinary

ValentineMary:

But the members who saw it that day would believe it is real and might also come to open threads just like this to prove a point to the atheist.

shadeyinka:


How can I make such a grandiose claim! However, I think it is you who makes such a claim..that natural laws can explain EVERYTHING. You know that nature can do everthing and can explain everything! I nearly claim that nature can't explain everything.

shadeyinka:


Of course, there are so many things. Example
A. Instinct in Animals:
How does a chicken know it should brood on her eggs?
How does a baby know it should suck
Mating behaviours in animals
Foraging in insects
Social segregation and duties of bees
Birds building nests
Sexual behaviours among birds etc

B. Intuition:
Intuition is the ability to acquire knowledge without proof, evidence, or conscious reasoning, or without understanding how the knowledge was acquired.

shadeyinka:

Everyone is constrained by the laws of nature. If I were on the moon, I would be able to jump higher than 8feet off the ground. If I eat only fruits and berries, I might live to be 130 years old. If cells do not age..I would be stronger at 99 than a young man of 20.

So many things constrain our lives. Even, Demons constrain some peoples lives through limitating their natural capacities..

donnffd:


Lol, I doubt being skeptical can be regarded as having infinite knowledge. I dont know the full length of Natural laws and when something is out of the ordinary, i dont claim it to be Natural neither do i claim it is Supernatural.

"I don't know" would be the term but i am very weary of terming it Supernatural due to the fact that previously, many events that we ddnt understand and termed supernatural were found to have Naturalistic explanations, so out of inference, i resist the temptation to call things i dont understand "Supernatural".

donnffd:

Just because some things are not fully understood, doesnt make them evidence for the supernatural, i am sure you would agree!

donnffd:

Ok, so if we are all constrained by the laws of nature, how can we be sure that we can infer what is supernatural or not?

shadeyinka:


Dictionary definition of Made:



Does not apply to humans as you seem to want it used.



Who says God is a loving God?
God is LOVE!
God is JUSTICE!
God is ABSOLUTE!

GOD doesn't condone sin even with those who love Him not to talk of those who dont Love Him.

He is a CONSUMING FIRE!!

CeoMYN:

A God who is love can't be a consuming fire.

shadeyinka:


Gods love compels Him to serve justice to enemies of His children

shadeyinka:


If you found some counterfeit N1000 notes in the market, is that a sufficient proof that ALL money in circulation are Fake?

Not really but u would at that point agree that the particular note is fake would u not so the truth is that u are invariably calling some deliverance fake.

I understand you, you are yet to see one case that convince you. No problem!

Can you please describe what you consider as a typical evidence of a demonized person. It may help my research you know!

It is very possible our definition of "demonization" is different. I've explained mine, what of yours?

Some deliverances take place without any visible outward manifestation but You know I was talking about manifestations in deliverance ministrations. And so, the example of Bishop Oyedepo may not be suitable.

shadeyinka:


LOL. You know, this is always my confusion with Agnostic Atheists. They argue and speak like Gnostic Atheists then suddenly they rember that they are supposed to be " sitting on the fence" and suddenly change course.

Of course your believe is that EVERYTHING has natural explanations including the seemingly elusive ones with the claim that over time, knowledge and Science will unravel such mysteries.

I think Theists are more balance in this respect. We do not say that ALL unexplained events are spiritual, but we acknowledge that there are some things the Physical laws cannot explain.

shadeyinka:

I agree...but the converse too is true. The fact that something's are not understood by science is an evidence that science or the physical laws may not be able to explain everything. The failure of classical Physics led to the quantum physics.

shadeyinka:

From all the knowledge we have, some things still do not add up. There is no physical explanation for instinct for instance....evolution cannot explain it. To the theists, it is an evidence for a designer who put "the booting sequence" as part of the OS of living beings.

Like in quantum physics, nothing is exact!
Being sure (aside Faith) needs objective reproducable evidences. The spiritual doesn't operate in such fashion.

Faith is Just like Love: it doesn't have physical quantifying elements.

CeoMYN:

so God has his own separate children.

ValentineMary:
Not really but u would at that point agree that the particular note is fake would u not so the truth is that u are invariably calling some deliverance fake.

ValentineMary:

When during the deliverance section, a light like substance is emited from the mouth, or the person changes into something else and back, or they tell me things about my life only me knows.

ValentineMary:

Okay.

shadeyinka:


I would never call a persons deliverance fake unless his character proves otherwise. My point was that not all pastors do deliverance and some manifestations you see are not from God. These are valid truths..its just like saying that some politicians are irresponsible. Its a generic statement we know to be true.

LOL!
You have mixed up two things
1. Deliverance and
2. Word of knowledge.

In deliverance, because demons are spirits you cannot she light or fire proceeding from the demonized. Demons usually affect the personality ofba person. Look at the deliverances done by Jesus, its like what we have now.

There are a few ministers gifted in the word of knowledge. They can tell you your inner secrets in direct unambiguous manner but you have to find one for your self.

shadeyinka:



If you ask me: my personal view of Benny Hinn, I would say he doesn't do deliverance! I understand the power of mass hypnotism usually, it predesposes one to follow the hypnotist with a form of unnatural awe.

People like Hitler convinced a whole nation to follow him to their death. The same with Jim Jones in the Guyana Tragedy. Even though these are realities as you pointed out, they do not fall under the class of demonic manifestations.

Falling under the guise of anything is NOT deliverance.

I perceive that you are Catholic, so I am going to use examples from Exorcism performed by certified exorcist. The Priest sometimes use Holy Water and sprinkle just a little on the demonized and you know the reaction? The demonized feel burning sensations which may result into screams from the demonized. Some time, the cross of the Lord Jesus is held in front of the demonized and it has the effect as if blinding lights are coming out of the cross into the demonized eyes.

I don't believe that this reactions are due to heightened anticipation, demonized being in a suggestive state and environment.

However, in a non regulated environment the observation is that every Christian has dominion over demons.

I understand your point and I think the reason why this is so is because the Bible commands us to cast out demons without explaining how to. Most of what we know about demons are from first hand experience in casting out demons.

The place of adequate training is important but I have not found one yet. This is why many ministers cause more harm especially when a deliverance is partially completed.

donnffd:


I would speak for myself in this scenario, i don't believe i am sitting on the fence because i say "i don't know", No, i believe what i am doing is giving a room for skepticism even with my beliefs(which by the way most theists bluntly refuse to do).

Let me clarify, Given the Large Number of planets and stars out there and given the abundant nature of the ingredients of life, it is really absurd to claim that life only exists here on earth, but i would not out-rightly call that claim wrong or impossible, because we don't have enough evidence for it(even though we would later in the future).

So my stance on alien life is that it is very very very unlikely that we are alone in the universe but i might be wrong since i don't have enough evidence yet to be sure.

So likewise this, it is very very very unlikely that many "yet to be understood" claims are the workings of the supernatural but i might be wrong since i don't have enough evidence to be sure also.
.

donnffd:

The failure of classical Physics led to the standard model of quantum physics yes, but the standard model is still "Nature", it just was not familiar to us, but it is very much Natural and any other Natural laws[b]. No supernatural explanations was invoked for it.[/b]
.

donnffd:

There is no physical explanation for instinct yet, and moreover there are reasons to believe it might not be as complicated as it sounds given the structure of neurons, synapse and the overall connections of the brain but that is a story for another time.

Having Faith is awesome, when you know there is a probability of it happening, but faith without any probability whatsoever is pretty much "wishful thinking" in my honest opinion.

ValentineMary:

Okay.




Let me tell you a deliverance story I learnt as a catholic about st Dominic.

One day while Dominic was preaching about the rosary, a man made fun of him and the virgin Mary cast thousands of demons into him. The man family members came to beg Dominic to interceed, so he Dominic began to say the rosary for the man. And at every hail Mary, demons left him like burning coal.

Sarassin:


We are in agreement with respect to Benny Hinn although I think you missed the wider point with regards my Hitler analogy. The point I am making is that once a group of persons or person is already placed in a suggestive state it is then easy to manipulate such person(s). Therefore in the boiler room environment of high pressure Charismatic churches it is not unusual that a person who has been screeched at and repeatedly told that he is the recipient of a demonic infestation will then begin to exhibit characteristics that he/she believes a possessed person exhibits, it is a fait accompli.

Sarassin:

I am not Catholic but yes I am aware that specialised priests carry out exorcisms that are strictly controlled in order to expel demons. I am sure you are not about to tell me that what goes on in the Charismatic churches are exorcisms.

Sarassin:

If we equate the casting out of demons with an exorcism then I cannot take the above statement of yours at face value because I know from experience that not every Christian can perform one.

Sarassin:

I think it is so because so called “deliverance” is now performed as a self-indulgence, anyone with any form of malady or unhappiness heads off to a “deliverance” generally performed by a grand-standing self-aggrandising un-ordained cleric, even you have to take recourse in making a judgement as to which minister is carrying out a true deliverance and which one is given to a theatrical performance, as you rightly pointed out, there is no regulation, not even self-regulation, nothing to protect the sanctity of the human psyche from the onslaught of voracious charismatic leaders.

Sarassin:

Adequate training places abound, but Charismatic ministers lack the basic fundamentals to access these places, and there is no such thing as a partially completed deliverance. Either the victim is totally relieved or not. Last of all, if you are performing a deliverance from a demonic infestation then it is in fact a possession.

shadeyinka:


To those who believe on His name He gave the Power to become "Sons of God".
The criteria is humans who will Love God unconditionally and love their neighbor as themselves. The prove of love is obedience in pleasing God

shadeyinka:


The bottom line is still why be an Agnostic Atheist rather than Agnostic Theist? In both cases, there is the notion of "I don't know". Even though either of the 2 positions is not "christianly".

Of course, we are not likely alone in the universe statistically speaking.
Life shouldn't be possible with Carbon-Nitrogen complex if we look strictly at non creation possibilities.

On this second issue is, can their exist " atoms" not made up from our normal proton- neutron- electron basic building blocks...This too is a possibility that may be finite.

I guess the problem had always been, how dare theists without a scientificly elucidated theory arrive at a possibility that is statistically feasible.

My import was not to make a 1:1 comparison of classical: quantum phenomenon but to show that limitation of the classical laws got scientists to think out of the box. Just as limitations of the physical laws should prompt a higher critical thinking for the existence of non physical laws. I guess theists jumped the gun by naming it spiritual.

Faith isn't about probability! Faith is an intrinsic unexplainable knowing! Faith is like Love (maybe that's why they say love is blind).

I doubt if there will ever be a physical explanation for instinct. To me, it is a kind of programming by one who preemptively put in reactions that will guarantee the survival of life. It is easier to believe that this is a design than a product of chance.

GoodMuyis:
Demon Possession is real, I have never witness any deliverer session in a Church. But in the North here ....
Even Muslim Hausa Girls are being possessed by a demon that will turn the girls to men in nature, they voice like men, so strong that it is difficult for 3 men to hold down a girl.

There is a case of a girl my Apprentice told me, his school mate. This girl manifest in class up to three times in the school before she was withdrawn. This girl can only be calm by a talisman given to the brother from home.

The case of demon possession are much among the Northern Hausa Girls

donnffd:


I am an Agnostic Atheist because the default position is Atheism, Theism is the special and incredible case or claim which if true, would be very extraordinary and amazing.
.

donnffd:

Theists producing theories is not a sin, infact a belgium priest was the originator of the big-bang theory. This goes for everyone both theist and atheist alike, if you bring forth a very incredible claim, you should have an incredible evidence to back it up if not no-one would take you seriously.
.

donnffd:

yes, the facts made them to change their thinking but note,"The Facts". If we were also presented with facts of demons and ghosts, i am sure the scientific community might change their thinking also but no such facts has been presented.
.

donnffd:

The first bolded sentence is the reason science dreads religion, it shuts you off from inquiry and pre-supposes the answers even though those answers are not sufficient. What if you are wrong, and in the near-future we do find an explanation for it, what would you do then?, would you push design backwards to things you dont understand then?
.

donnffd:

I did mention earlier that theist claim infinite knowledge but you tried to turn the argument around, but please be sincere,doesn't the idea that you know that there is a God and he made all things sounds like infinite knowledge to you?
.

donnffd:

The second bolded sentence rests on the fact of easy thinking; It was easier for ancient humans to believe that the sun revolved around the earth and so they did, it was easier for them to think that the gods were the causes of thunder and lightning and they did, it was easier for them to believe that diseases were caused by demons and so they did.

In modern times, it is easier to believe that someone designed everything and so many of us do, without thinking critically and using past human mistakes as a lesson guide.

shadeyinka:
Sorry for late reply. The religion Bots of Nairaland banned me for no apparent reason. Guess what? Over this same thread.

I created a post just to highlight this but Seun removed it! So, I still don't know why I was banned. Check out what I posted after this post.

OK.

shadeyinka:

But its not a theory. It is an experience and experience may not be physically provable. If an Angel walked into my room and spoke to me for 30 minutes about issues, the only way I can prove it is to bring the angel to the public for all to see. However, things don't work like that. An angel decides when to be seen or not and he can't be controlled.

Now, Is the experience true? YES
Is is physically provable? NO
Since it is not Physically provable, it that the final conclusion that the experience is false? NO!

LOL. You know that is not True. Theists don't shut down at making inquiry about nature. Am I not a scientist like you? Theists study of Science, Science displays the wisdom of God in design and making of matter. The difference with atheists see probabilistic "accident" as the cause while theists see "God" as the source.

Both positions physically scientifically speaking is impossible.

Theists are certain "God" made all things
Atheists are certain "probabilistic chance" made all things.
Both positions are equally scientifically fantastic. None of the positions claim infinite knowledge. Both push the limit of their understanding to God for the Theists and Scienctific Progress for Atheists.

That doesn't mean that every ancient idea is flawed or false.

donnffd:


So sorry about that...

donnffd:

This brings two scenarios in mind;

1. Your experience was real but only in your head, maybe hallucinating, or dreaming. Either ways no way to prove it.

2. Your experience was actually real, and angels do infact exists and they live outside the physical realm in which case you still can't prove physical.

So in both ways, science would not be able to affirm your claim because it deals with repeatable and testable facts. Then you really cant blame the scientific community for not accepting such things if thats the case.

donnffd:

Not all theists though but majority...

Impossible is a strong word, i doubt they are impossible(even God being the source), i just feel its is far more plausible for the universe to be random and follow natural laws than for it to be designed by a super intelligent designer.

donnffd:

Atheists are not certain of anything and that is why they demand evidence.

Right now, i am an atheist grounded in science, but some atheists are not science people at all and dont even accept evolution or even know what the big bang theory is, they just know logically that supernatural claims need evidence.

donnffd:

Not every idea but most of them and those who got it right were just lucky enough to stumble on the right answer and not because they actually worked it out to the solution.

What history is teaching us is that the easiest answers to us isnt necessarily the right one. The universe doesnt care if it is simple enough for humans to comprehend.

donnffd:
Interesting thread...

I did try to watch the videos, but i am in holdup right now and i cant hear well enough, but i would give a few personal opinions on the matter.

My atheism is based on one single premise, and its not science or hypocrisy of religion, or hate of God, or a tragedy. No, none of that, it is based on one simple fact:-

- There has been no single evidence for all supernatural claims.

Infact in anicent times, the supernatural was a term used by we humans to describe phenomenon that we ddnt understand, but has we grew wiser and more scientific, the realm of supernatural things grew smaller and smaller.

Today, we still hear of ghosts, and demon possession but no single concrete evidence as sufficed for even one.

I do not doubt the intentions of some of those in deliverance, many are dubious but some are really sincere and truly believe that they have been possessed by the devil or by demons, and when the brain believes something that strongly, it becomes hard to not see otherwise. I do remember telling you about my mom being a deliverance minister shadeyinka, and she believes it so firmly, she really believes in demons and spirits and believes she has casted those things out of alot folks. So I understand perfectly.

But believing something because its convenient or because it has been constantly repeated to you is a very wrong reason to believe and so i require evidence for any belief to take place.

So as i man who doesn't believe in the supernatural, i first look for Naturalistic explanation to events i feel are absurd and out of the ordinary and even if i cant find one, it still doesn't mean its supernatural, it just means there is a Natural cause in which we are not familiar with.

Sarassin:


I am no atheist but in my view a fundamental dishonesty takes place in these charismatic churches in the name of “deliverance” and both deliverer and congregation are complicit in the macabre dance, I see auto-suggestive and mesmeric techniques reminiscent of live traveling hypnotists shows I witnessed decades ago living in the boonies in Canada, the unwary are brought up on stage, induced to hypnotism and made to produce all manner of ridiculous antics under auto-suggestion with no memory or recollection of their actions afterwards.

A congregant who is pre-disposed to the idea of demonic possession (and it is usually women or defence-less children) with preconceptions of the standard of behavior of one supposedly possessed will generally act accordingly under subtle manipulation. I promise you that there are no limits to the suggestibility of the human mind in the hands of a skilled operator.

This is not to say that demonic possession does not exist, it does but it is not the purview of the charlatan. I would add that with the exception of highly specialised and dedicated priests, with dispensation from "sanctum sanctorum" anyone attempting to expel a true demonic presence would likely be shattered by the mere emanations of such an entity, I know because I have seen the results of such fo.ol-hardiness first hand.

In my view what obtains in a lot of charismatic churches touting "deliverance" is little more than badly orchestrated psychological manifestations induced by sometimes well meaning but utterly deluded self-styled men of God. It amounts to a fraud perpetrated in the name of God.

ScienceWatch:

You are right when you say, "anyone attempting to expel a true demonic presence would likely be shattered by the mere emanations of such an entity."

Yes, demons are powerful and dangerous.