italo:


Please wait...it seems smeago007 uses his brain. Let me wait for his reply.

I will answer blockheads later. If I'm chanced.

Smeago007:


So what's it?
I was mentioned

italo:


1. Do you know the difference between bowing to and bowing before.

2. Did Joshua worship idol in Joshua 7:6?

3. Do you think this lady below is kneeling to the bible...or kneeling before it?

Themandator:



Everything written was written for our learning ....We didn't learn from the new covenant that images were used for prayers. ....

Good day , I have work to do

Any practice you can't find in the bible , old testament and reaffirmed in the new covenant, for the purpose of godly relationship with Jehovah God is demonic.

The bible is a rigid 'constitution' for the believer

Themandator:

I am of the opinion that we have left the middle of road for the ditch .....Our core disagreement is having images in the church and worshipping them or praying through them or gazing at them while praying. ....While you supported their use with the issue of Joshua kneeling before the tabernacle, I stated that it was so because it was the home of God in the old testament but for the new covenant saints the home has moved into us and therefore we have no need for imgaes. We are now the express image and temple of the almighty God for any kind of his stay on the earth.

Themandator:

You brought up handkerchiefs and I stated that they were used to demonstrate his power and not for purpose of praying or prostration or intent staring at in the form of meditation.


The point is what you do with the image ...... Handkerchiefs are not image but materials items ....images are solid objects designed to be a copy of wither humans or animals or objects

Themandator:

Now you have brought up image or pictures of Winners founder ......Still the departing point is whether the person you saw the picture in his or her house told you that she prays in front of it ... Kneels before it .... Ask the image to for him or her .


I have Bishop oyedepo nooks and I know Winners are too well grounded to believe this nonsense you stated as their reasons for having his picture .........If you had stated that they told you it is for easy with identification with their church it would have made sense .

In One of of Oyedepo books , he told a story of a man who came to meet him for spiritual issues and he was not around and he opted to wait .... When he came and he was told that this man had been waiting , even though he received the man , he however told him that if he had invested the time he spent waiting on him to opening the book, the holy spirit would have given him direction on his challenge. That is not a man who crave idolization and Now that you have brought his picture matter to my attention, I am going to get one framed for my parlour because I respect his anointing and understanding of the scripture. He teaches Joe to attract the blessing and having his picture is not one of the ..How to in his books. ...I have so many of his books ....it is them that receives Him that he gave the power to become the sons of God ......Your making is in your following ....Follow me and I will make you ......


If you go out and buy an image of a woman with long bead dropping from a clasp hands and you add two candles by the sides on a table covered with white cloth and then knel, there to pray you have idolised the image ......It is satanic

Themandator:

As for the other persons you mentioned and sperm I have nothing to say because I have never read about him and I would not want to lie to defend him or not just to score cheap points

Izonpikin:
which Jewish rabbis?...can you quote a scripture on that..

italo:

False! False! False! Worshipping images or praying through images is your own position which you are arguing against. The rest of us have been watching you argue against yourself like a mad man.


Nobody said images were objects. Another example of you arguing against yourself like a mad man.


Ok. When members of winners use images, I should ask them what they are doing with the image, but when Catholics use images, you will conclude for us what we are doing.

Then you will argue against your own conclusions, not against what we do, like a mad man.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2979585/Nigerian-pastor-arrested-impregnating-20-women-church-claims-God-commanded-sex-daughters.html

http://www.pilotafrica.com/2013/02/17/pastor-who-claims-his-penis-contains-holy-milk-arrested-and-jailed-for-abuse/

So what do you have to say about these your Church members who say God used their semen to bring higher grace to baby christians like you

and where did the bible say if something is not written in the bible, Christians should not do it?

italo:

False! False! False! Worshipping images or praying through images is your own position which you are arguing against. The rest of us have been watching you argue against yourself like a mad man.


Nobody said images were objects. Another example of you arguing against yourself like a mad man.


Ok. When members of winners use images, I should ask them what they are doing with the image, but when Catholics use images, you will conclude for us what we are doing.

Then you will argue against your own conclusions, not against what we do, like a mad man.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2979585/Nigerian-pastor-arrested-impregnating-20-women-church-claims-God-commanded-sex-daughters.html

http://www.pilotafrica.com/2013/02/17/pastor-who-claims-his-penis-contains-holy-milk-arrested-and-jailed-for-abuse/

So what do you have to say about these your Church members who say God used their semen to bring higher grace to baby christians like you

and where did the bible say if something is not written in the bible, Christians should not do it?

Themandator:



That statues of a woman in your church contains the spirit of Diana of the Ephesus she plays mind game with you guys by shedding tears ....Acts 19:26-28

Themandator:



Your are italo, I suppose the screenshot display should help you remember who is in support of image and who is against


Acts 17:23-24 .....For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands

easymancfc:


How do you know that Did you put it there?

P.S acts 19:26-28 doesn't mention any Diana, IT DOES MENTION THE GREEK GODDESS ARTEMIS AND THE CRAFTMEN WHO WERE SCARED OF LOSING MONEY IN MAKING "gods" FOR PEOPLE WHO USED TO WORSHIP ARTEMIS IN ALL OF ASIA..

ATLEAST TRY TO GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT..

Anti Catholics would want to draw Diana as the Roman equivalent of the Greek goddess just to "ROMANIZE" it and draw false similarities, Some People have compared Mary to Ishtar, now its Diana abi na Artemis. The temple in Ephesus was a Greek temple.

1. Catholics dont refer to Mary as a goddess.

2. Those images are not meant to be worshipped...

3. MARY IS NOT "DIANA" NOR ARTEMIS

easymancfc:


AMEN TO THAT...

GOD IS EVERYWHERE
BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THERE ARE NO LONGER GOING TO BE PLACES OF WORSHIP OR "CHURCHES".

OR THAT THOSE CHURCHES DO NOT HAVE A SPECIAL PRESENCE OF GOD IN THEM

Themandator:


New Jerusalem Bible as well as the King James gives the name as Diana ...I know some other Bible versions uses Artemis but what is important is that a goddess that worshipped and prayed to was recorded the Acts 19-26-28

Themandator:



Are you one and same as Italo? And ube something

easymancfc:


No sir, I am a separate independent person, why do you ask?

easymancfc:


and you think just because a greek goddess was worshipped in Ephesus that means it must be Mary?

Can you provide proof of that statement?

i mean good proof.. not the opinion of one anti catholic writer, direct bible proof? early christian writing or encyclopaedia brittanica maybe?

Themandator:



Sir, I am not interested in which goddess was worshipped and where ..... I stated that the spirit that has gained entrance into those statues is that of Diana ..,the spirit ....That is what the prince of the air has dispatched to deal with the respect those statues do earn amongst your members ...I know for sure that people kneel in front of them to pray , they make supplications while kneeling in front of those images and Apostle Paul has told you that God doesnt dwell in temples made of human hand. The only suitable temple is us ....... Therefore, if images are not the dwelling place of God and his spirit , it can't be empty and be crying blood in some of your parishes ...Something must be inside or you people faked the blood cry scene

easymancfc:


i ask again?
Can you provide proof of Your claim?

those images dont contain God and the Church never taught that they do.. Neither do they contain any spirits, as for bleeding or crying tears, i am as skeptical as you.. and the church encourages us to be skeptical also until proper investigation has been carried out, then the message behind such is revealed..
but if in fact they do, God can work through material things.. going back to the bronze serpent, Peter's shadow, Paul's apron and handkerchief, elisha's bones etc which did not contain God or "Diana" or Zeus or Hermes or Poseidon's spirit but also manifested signs and wonders.

Themandator:



Your opinion that those images don't contain God is, if put to a referendum amongst your devotees, will be minority opinion. If you know the holy ghost cathedral in Enugu you would know that there is an image of a woman that is decoratdd and kept in a secure glass casing where people go to pray while kneeling in f don't of the image
People actually go there to cry out their hearts just ,like you see amongst Hindu worshippers.

The difference between your handkerchiefs and Peter image is that whereas those items were used to demonstrate the power , these images are prayed to or knelt in front of while purporting to pray to God .....They pray hail o holy queen , we fly to your patronage before those images


It is time you do away with the image which can be traced to the first sets of missionaries that went out after the biblical times ...They were largely commissioned by government and they came not with apostolic anoinitngs to bind the works of Satan amongst their converts but as teachers of new cultures , language and way of life which included Christianity as a new culture to replace the old heathen ways of the people ....They discovered that after all the suit wearing in the day time the people Usually returned to what they knew and could see aN effective god

A compromise brought the idol and image culture into catholism.


Don't kid yourself , there is no image that receives reverence as those ones in your church that is free of spirit habitation and the spirit is not that if God because he gave it to Christians on Pentecost

easymancfc:



THE IMAGES DONT CONTAIN GOD AND ITS NOT MY OPINION NEITHER IS IT A MINORITY. THAT IS WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES.. this i can actually prove.. IF YOU CONFUSE VENERATION OR INTERCESSION FOR WORSHIP THEN THATS YOUR ISSUE..
Veneration of those images because because of who they represent is not worship even if someone kneels in front of it to pray... the hail holy queen prayer if you take it in its proper context as catholics do doesnt take away anything from Christ,
THE PRAYERS ARE NOT DIRECTED TOWARDS THE STATUE, THEY ARE DIRECTED TO GOD, OR WHOEVER'S INTERCESSION IS BEING SOUGHT WHO WILL TAKE THE PRAYERS TO CHRIST..

i still ask for proof of your claim that the images contain sprits..

Themandator:



I ask because[b] italo is yet to reply me[/b] even though I mentioned him or her. Do you always check the thread for new entries?

Themandator:



If they don't contain spirit why do they cry blood.
God is a spirit and those who worship him just do so in spirit and Satan is also a spirit and if God says he doesn't dwell in handmade temples and you continue to pray and venerate one that you have made , clearly only one spirit can be there and it can only be that of the devil since God doesnt live in such statues and if the contest between heaven and hell is for human worship Satan is duty bound to invade such images and receive every supplications made there as well as the veneration.

He will then perform such strange acts like releasing blood through the images to amuse and awe the venerators

NB: Venerate means to honour , worship , regard with great respect

easymancfc:


there are several faults with your assumption.. You emphasize that God doesnt live in temple made by human hands which the church affirms when taken in its proper context, it does not mean that God isnt specially present in places of worship,

The statues dont have to contain any spirits, that just your faulty logic, going by that logic every statue whether of Major Fajuyi in Ekiti or that of other great men will be inhabited by spirits to receive honour given to them..

Spirits cannot intercept prayers not made to them.. i cannot direct my request for intercession to Mary or any other Saint in heaven and a "Diana" will intercept it,
Most prayers directed to the saints have elements of it directed to God and Jesus also and are ended most often with biblical wordings so no evil spirit will or even can intercept prayers not directed towards them...

Lastly not all catholic statues bleed, those that do, which is a very small percentage are investigated and the message behind it is determined.. which is actually gospel centered, either of repentance or forgiveness and conversion to Jesus Christ which no evil spirit would want to propagate , it doesnt contradict Orthodox christian belief.. as for the bleeding itself, it is a sign from God and God can manifest through material things, going back to bronze serpent, Peter's shadow, Paul's apron, Elisha's bones just like they didnt contain God, and they didnt contain evil spirits but God used them, so too are the bleeding statues, UNLESS YOU THINK GOD DOESNT HAVE THE POWER TO MAKE STATUES BLEED

P.S Venerate in the sense meant by catholics is to treat with respect we ADORE AND WORSHIP GOD ALONE, BUT WE GIVE RESPECT AND HONOUR TO WHOM IT IS DUE..

italo:
Because I noticed you are arguing against your own ideas.

Themandator:



Where two or three are gathered he says he is there if the gathering is in his name ...This is different from statues which Apostle Paul told you in acts 17 is not the home of the almighty God.


Sir no religious status is free of spirit habitation .....Nobody, unless a mentally deranged person, has ever prayed to the imagesmornstaues of those nationalist you mentioned. ..Nobody has ever used their names to ask God for anything and certainly no body goes to kneel and revere those statues ...The word of God says he doesn't live in man made images or temple but that our Jody is his temple , his habitation


If Diana can't intercepted prayer made directly to God not through status but could intercept the answer ....See Daniel ....Then logically using images gives them the legal right to kidnap the prayer and answer them since the accident the brethren can point out the inconsistencies if God not living in images and then used of image to rep God .


Your apron and shadow analogy: his eyes cannot behold sin. He says he doesn't live in images ...If you create one you sin and offend him by That action ..,the difference is in what you do with them: you respect a milder block of cement ,the works of your hand while the shadow demonstrated God s power and proof the powerlessness if Satan against even the shadow of one who carries the presence of God in them ..lit is different from kneeling to pray before the shadow or handkerchiefs.


How many mediator does the scripture says we have in heaven? Who is the way , the truth and the life and without which no one can come to the father?


There is no assistant God anywhere , Jo assistant Jesus Christ in heaven ..We are sewted together with him in the heavenly places therefore can't be asking any other fellow to talk to God on our behalf

It doesn't make sense to have the spirit of God on and in you and be praying to Mary to pray to the spirit that is in you ...Only lack of scriptural understanding can make that happen

Themandator:


I have replied you with screenshots of your Joshua theory that you mainly tried to use as support for your image practices ..L I am emphatically stating that the statues of that woman in church contains the spirit of Diana ...See Acts 19

easymancfc:


You are arguing with you own idea as italo says indeed...

Religious images are free of spirit habitation unless you can prove otherwise...

There were many statues in the old testament temple. two 15 feet tall cherubims, at the holy of holies, many carvings on the doors and walls see 1 kings 6, not to mention the cherubims on the ark, and the bronze serpent, by your logic since people prayed around temple statues or looked at the bronze serpent to be healed then it must contain a spirit...

according to Daniel, the prince of Persia didnt intercept the prayer offered to God, but neither did he answer it, he only delayed the angel carrying the answer to Daniel, let's say for the sake of argument that the prayer a catholic prays is intercepted by Diana, if the request is granted, the glory goes to God, not to the Diana, so Diana would be working for God indirectly..


On your last point intercession is what we ask for, and all Christians, even you ask for intercession and intercession for one another is pleasing to God, (2 tim 1:4), in heaven Others make intercession for us through Christ to God, Angels do, Other saints do, the holy spirit does, (heb 12:21-24, rev 5:8, 8:3, Romans 8:26-27, matt 18:10)

you made a claim and you still haven't proved it, give a scripture quote where it says religious statues must contain a spirit...

italo:


That's because you're not using your brain.

Themandator:




Which of the religious images in the old testament was free of spirit ..The arks and tabernacle contained carried the presence of God and in all of the battles of the old testament God expressly ordered the utter destruction of the gods and their images and altar.... There is no image in the scripture that was being prayed to , knelt in from of like Joshua that was free of the presence of a spirit ....Draw your conclusion whether if it so then why it won't be same now. Apostle Paul in the book of Acts 17 told the that they ought to know that no temple made of human hands is the home of God ...This is Paul felling them that it doesn't contain God and I don't think he was referring to God in human flesh but his spirit

Stop flying the kite from the old testament, this was the era of visitation when God did not dwell in human beings. After Pentecost humans became the dwelling place of for here on the earth ..Old testament believers had visitation, God coming into tabernacle and ark but the new testament believers are blessed to be the ark and tabernacle of God ....We are now first spirit dwelling in human bodies with souls that connects connects the spirit and the human being in a continuous interaction.

Then coming to intercession , I want you to know that it is biblical to the extent that it is done by the living for the living ... Never was if stated anywhere in the bible that the dead and heavenly beings did intercession for those on the earth .The rich fool requested for it and was turned down ...The only person making intercession on our behalf is the holy spirit with groaning which cannot be ulterred ...Jesus Christ is our only mediator.. he is the only enthroned in heaven


As for italo ,he or she has gone round shopping for scripture to back up his argument.. he brought Joshua and I stated that if as so then because of the visitation but not so in our time. He even went as far as inputting that Jesus was prostrate and I asked him to who or when.

Then he moved into handkerchiefs and aprons just like you and I stated that they were for demonstration and not prayer purpose ..I am yet to see anyone praying to handkerchiefs and aprons. They were only used to convey the power of God to where it was needed by those in satans captivity.

Since then both Jim and you have being trying to convince Me that they are for memorial .It didn't carry the presence of God even though you regard them and have respect for them both of you have travelled the same rout Pe of bringing our nationalist into the equation even though nobody ever prays before them and not one person has held them to be mediators between man and God

My position has remained the same: images have no place in the new testament believers relationship with Jehovah God.

Ubenedictus:
like this abi?

6 Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell facedown to the ground before the ark of the LORD, remaining there till evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and sprinkled dust on their heads.

samuelezekiel:


That's not worshipping, he and the elders were remorseful, did you see the part where they tore their cloth and sprinkled dust on their heads?

Ubenedictus:
you have helped Catholics to make there point, not all prostration denote worship.

samuelezekiel:


Maybe that's the intention, we Yorubas prostrate to greet our elders to show respect just like saluting and the rest of its like that doesn't mean we are worshipping them... The point is bowing down to a carved image,, take note of the word carved a d image. The ark is not an image, it is said to even contain the tablet for the ten commandments, the rod of Aaron and the manna they ate in the desert.