Empiree:
This is the article albaqir was trying to post before anti-spam bot activated

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15532739.2016.1250239

Whoever wants to read can go ahead. I have and gave my opioid on it.

ikupakuti:


What albaqir failed or refused to grasp here is that abnormality or deformity in nature @ birth is an entirely different issue from the act of sodomy. Once he agrees that there is no excuse under the shari‘a for a man to penetrate a man/woman through the anus then this issue would be solved.
#Whatever therapy (out of necessity) you want to seek for those whose nature are epicene in either sexes must incline towards the type of sex organ they came with or that which is paramount in the case of those hermaphroditic. There is no harm to seek hormonal treatment for a man with a male sex organ who feels less manly in order to feel more manly.

In sofar whatever is responsible for your confused mentality didnt deem it fit to provide you, as a man, with a v-jay, then your fate is already sealed with the sex organ you came with.

Empiree:
I don't tell am now. Me and him don discussed this on another platform. I cited examples too. This aint gay thing. Homosexual is something they invented for themselves and voluntarily engage in.

Fortunately though, albaqir recognized homosexual, gay, sodomy and whatever it is called to be haram. That's seals it.

ikupakuti:


What albaqir failed or refused to grasp here is that abnormality or deformity in nature @ birth is an entirely different issue from the act of sodomy. Once he agrees that there is no excuse under the shari‘a for a man to penetrate a man/woman through the anus then this issue would be solved.
.

AlBaqir:


# First, it seem to me that when we say “homosexual”, your first understanding has always been “the sex.ual act” itself. My points has always been centered on those people itself. The act of homosexuality is 100% forbidden in Islam and in fact the severest punishment for it in Shi’a fiqh is burning alive. However, throughout my campaign here, I see these people (of lost or hidden or misunderstood identity) as people that need help ranging from medical, psychological and spiritual help.

ikupakuti:


I dont know whether you are deliberately mixing this up or is it that you dont get it.

#The QURAN/GOD isnt againt those men who lack the quiddity of manliness or men whose nature are epicene coz thats the work of nature as willed by GOD.

#What GOD/QURAN is against is SODOMY.

Empiree:
this describes me growing up. I had baby face, soft spoken, soft skin, shy like women, women level of thinking and pop once called me "dense". Yet i am 100% a man. People this category simply need exposure to break it off. Now I am a freaking dude bold voice, masculine statue but unfortunately, skin remains soft and thats pissing me off

Kaytixy:
Those responding to tintiz should stop. He is a fool and shouldn't be given attention.

ikupakuti:


but Albaqir is pushing for therapeutic measures for convicted homos & abolition of the capital punishment. He said he used to believe in stoning/beheading but not anymore & thats whats putting him @ loggerheads with people here.
Ask him or go through his posts.

ikupakuti:

#What those who practice this despicable act are oblivious is that, the devils who animate & psych them into this base act do not indulge in it themselves due to how destructive & fast it is in incuring the wrath of GOD. We hear cases of humans having encounters with ASEQ(lover jinns) of opposite sex in dream, I‘m yet to hear a man/woman dream of being penetrated from the rear.

ikupakuti:


but Albaqir is pushing for therapeutic measures for convicted homos & abolition of the capital punishment. He said he used to believe in stoning/beheading but not anymore & thats whats putting him @ loggerheads with people here.
Ask him or go through his posts.

Demmzy15:
Under the Shirk involves supplicating to others besides Allaah like Aliyy, Fateemah, Hussain, Aboo Fadhl, Muhammad Al Mahdi.

Also making Takfir of wives and companions!

I'm in my house, come and beat me!

Empiree:
well, he needs to understand that homosexual is fasad and we know punishment for fasad in the Quran even though there is no direct punishment for gay.

AlBaqir:



# You are the one that need to reread my comments. As per what we labeled homos (I am not talking about their sexual acts), I grouped them thus:

* Those with genetic disorder (if truly the scientific findings are true). Here Empiree insisted its all lies. Then, I challenge his evidence? Then I asked where were Muslim scientists to counter those findings.

* Those that developed being "homo" via habits

* Those that were initiated into it for rituals.

I focused specifically on the first group.


# Yeah, I don't believe in stoning to death and beheading. Wherever you find it in the Qur'an, kindly bring it out. Today, countries like Jordan, Kuwait, Iran etc have modified their stoning to death law to imprisonment. In Kuwait, a woman who committed adultery was sentenced to prison instead of the traditional stoning (I can't remember how many years per se). This woman became repentant in prison after years she was in there. She memorised the whole of Qur'an, and through her many inmates became better Muslim.

AlBaqir:


# Its unfortunate you are not consistent. If you say, "he needs to understand that homosexual is fasad", obviously you are saying I am campaigning it is not.

Please try to be consistent.

tintingz:

Empiree is yet to answer why there are homos in Saudi Arabia and among animals.

Empiree:
Read a report yesterday published in 2015 says there is no "homo gene". Another one came up this yr said there is homo gene and it complicated their findings and research by given irrational explainations to covington folks.

I repeat that it is a scam and am attempt to make us believe that gay were born gay. I don't even want to give them excuses. If there are truly Pele born with such defect but have no sodom tendency, one of the solutions to their problem is to lock them up with opposite sex to call their brains to order

Weer should be able to make clear difference from people born with the defect from those taking advantage of it. Those taking advantage are most common today. You heat them say " I have always have this feelings that I'm attracted to same sex for yrs but I'm afraid to say this in the open".

tintingz:
Go and know what science and experiments means. Science update, evolve in research, in 2015-2016 the only psychiatrists going about that there is no gay gene is Dr. Paul R. McHugh a fanatic Christian crusader who is know to be anti-LGBT, he has been debunked by other scientists.

tintingz:
This another question Muslims and Christians failed to answer.

Why did God created the devil, Satan, demon, jin etc?

Sometimes when I try to put all these together it just not making any f*cking sense.

Empiree:
I already told albaqir this on another platform and thank God, I see someone who shares same view. So clearly, most homos in Saudi are as a result of extreme separation from both sexes not gene.

I don't believe in extreme separations of males and females.. there should be some levels of moderation. I also gave albaqir example of a friend''s friends in America whose parents were too strict. She was not allowed to see males and they are not even muslim. The lady becomes gay bcus of this. Nothing like gene

Empiree:
that was a response to his claim that u prefer therapeutic measures for convicted gay. Maybe I should ask, in a country where homo sexual is outlawed, if a gay man or woman is cut by law, tried and convicted, what should punishment be?

AlBaqir:
Empiree, you should by now know the likes of MrOlai, Demmzy15 are who they are in their mentality. Sometimes they don't f.ucking care about your point. They simply want to distort to make a cheap point and present you as the bad guy. That's how desperate they could be. If you don't know that of Demmzy15, you should know that of MrOlai. Unfortunately, the person that started the campaign was sino before all of them went into stup.id orgy. Anyway, I don't bother my head about them.


# First, it seem to me that when we say “homosexual”, your first understanding has always been “the sex.ual act” itself. My points has always been centered on those people itself. The act of homosexuality is 100% forbidden in Islam and in fact the severest punishment for it in Shi’a fiqh is burning alive. However, throughout my campaign here, I see these people (of lost or hidden or misunderstood identity) as people that need help ranging from medical, psychological and spiritual help.


THE AYAH: (men who do not have sex.ual desire
# Like I said, the ayah is open to interpretations for there is no direct interpretation of it from Nabi. Let's start from Ibn Kathir:

(Tabi`in among men who do not have desire,) such as hired servants and followers who are not at the same level as the woman and are feeble-minded and have no interest in or desire for women.

Ibn `Abbas said, "This is the kind of person who has no desire.'' `Ikrimah said, "This is the hermaphrodite, who does not experience erections.'' This was also the view of others among the Salaf. It was narrated in the Sahih from `A'ishah that a hermaphrodite, used to enter upon the family of the Messenger of Allah and they used to consider him as one of those who do not have desire, but then the Messenger of Allah came in when he was describing a woman with four rolls of fat in front and eight behind. The Messenger of Allah said,

(Lo! I think this person knows what is they are; he should never enter upon you.) He expelled him, and he stayed in Al-Bayda' and only came on Fridays to get food.
www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2430&Itemid=79


# Now, I have initially exposed through a hadith in sahih Bukhari that the Muslim community then have effeminates among them, in their houses. So, let's take a look at the meaning of the Effeminates:

The mukhannath, according to later Muslim lexicographers, mostly identify “as a man who resembles or imitates a woman in the languidness of his limbs or the softness of his voice” (Rowson, , p. 673). Mukhannaths, therefore, are people who are born with male sex organs. This was also the understanding of the term held by the early Muslim lexicographers who believed that the term mukhannath was derived from khanatha, which means "to fold back the mouth of a waterskin for drinking.” Therefore, “mukhannathun were so called on account of their languidness … while a languid woman was called khunuth .” (Rowson, , pp. 672–673). Though this meaning of mukhannath somehow concurs with prophetic traditions (hadiths ), it is not the same as hadith's description of the term. Therefore, some other Muslim lexicographers, such as al-Khalil b. Ahmad (d.c.170/786) in Kitab al-Ayn, believe mukhannath derives from khuntha , or hermaphrodite/intersex, on the basis of parallel gender ambiguity (Al-Khalil, , No. 4, p. 248; Rowson, , p. 673). According to the latter, a mukhannath is a hermaphrodite/intersex person and, therefore, would be categorized in that group. But, according to the former meaning of the term, mukhannath is a male with effeminate behavior. Therefore, it “does not explicitly describe sexual organs, sexual behaviours, or sexual orientation” (Kugle, , p. 241). Later on, in medieval times, mukhanath also came to be used for those persons who took on a passive role in same-sex acts (Rowson, 1991, p. 693).


# So, in one word, EFFEMINATES are men in their physical identity as “man” but mentally, psychologically, feeling-wise and touching-wise etc they are “women”. This is not habit they develop over the course of time rather they were born as such. These people do not have sex.ual desires for women (because they are one of them, batini (inner) wise). They are only attracted to men, as male-female natural attraction/affections. This, society generalized it “homosexuals” together with those that developed it as an habit, or involved in it due to the so-called free society, or involve in it for ritual purposes etc. I think that generalization is cruel. The one I have explained via effeminates deserve to be look into for it is a medical problem per se.


# Sheik al-Tantawi (al-shafi'i) former Mufti of al-Azhar, Egypt and Imam Ruhullah Khomeini, both passed fatawa on the sex-transgender surgery on people with such case (effeminates). The point however is that you can never appreciate their fatwas except you read what actually lead to the fatawa. Then, how did both derive their judgement and approval going by the fact that there is no direct rulings in the Quran and hadith?



I implore you guys, sino, Demmzy15, MrOlai, ikupakuti and whoever wish to read this comprehensive report (below). It is written by M. Alipour in the International Journal of Transgenderism, 2017.
www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15532739.2016.1250239

AlBaqir:



# Second, I wonder how you come back to the bold because you have never centre any of your comment there. All what you've been commenting on is the sex.ual act of homosexuality.

# Is it Allah that made those effeminates or Hermaphrodites like that? Please don't let us go there. That's gonna be another hell of a debate and probably chain of misunderstanding.

AlBaqir:


# Islam don't apply law like you guys and ISIS et al are. That is "once caught, kill, stone, behead". There are conditions to it, one of which is " why did the criminal committed the crime". Unfortunately, you have an hadith which says "once you caught them, kill them".

Empiree:
this describes me growing up. I had baby face, soft spoken, soft skin, shy like women, women level of thinking and pop once called me "dense". Yet i am 100% a man. People this category simply need exposure to break it off. Now I am a freaking dude bold voice, masculine statue but unfortunately, skin remains soft and thats pissing me off

sino:

Nobody has passed fatwa on killing effeminates, and it seems we are all overlooking that we have lesbians too. Anyways, if you were not trying to smuggle homosexuals into the Qur'an, what then are you trying to interpret the verse in question to mean?! I asked you for clarification, but you didn't respond. You keep saying it is open to interpretation. And it is even good you had done some research, at least you can see what interpretation that was given and said to be what the salafs to understood the verse to mean.

Empiree:
You make it sound like this. In western world, dont they have law in place where it says something like "anyone caught with mortgage fraud would face wrath of law". Does that mean they dont go through due process?

Empiree:
I already told albaqir this on another platform and thank God, I see someone who shares same view. So clearly, most homos in Saudi are as a result of extreme separation from both sexes not gene.

I don't believe in extreme separations of males and females.. there should be some levels of moderation. I also gave albaqir example of a friend''s friends in America whose parents were too strict. She was not allowed to see males and they are not even muslim. The lady becomes gay bcus of this. Nothing like gene

If that's the case, all Saudi men should be gays then!

AlBaqir:



# In fact at the beginning of this chain of dialogue, I made it clear that I am more concern about those with "these genetic disorder" (here I meant effeminates) because it is never their wish they get attracted to "same sex", not those that develop being "gay" by whatever means.

Empiree:
Answering tintingz, with respect to gays in saudi. Writer says further.

So clearly, they don't even talk about "homogene" bcus it doesn't seem to exist. Homosexual in Arabia is caused as a result of EXTREME SEPARATION. Got this? .

Empiree:
I already told albaqir this on another platform and thank God, I see someone who shares same view. So clearly, most homos in Saudi are as a result of extreme separation from both sexes not gene.

I don't believe in extreme separations of males and females.. there should be some levels of moderation. I also gave albaqir example of a friend''s friends in America whose parents were too strict. She was not allowed to see males and they are not even muslim. The lady becomes gay bcus of this. Nothing like gene