winner01:
And because God did not make man in the state in which we feel man should be made, then it makes God non-existent. Great logic.

Great assumption there but i am quite sure no where on this thread did i conclude therefore God did not exist, this thread wasn't about the existence of God it only questioned the feasibility of heaven/paradise/eternal bliss and sinless existence.

Maybe you should not have assumed to know the premise of the thread without really understanding the premise of the thread - again this thread does not argue that God does not exist as a matter of fact the whole argument is centered on the assumption that God actually exist.

Or maybe you should point out where the article states God doesn't exist or concludes thus, i'd like to see that.

Martinez19:
Why christians skip faith shaking thread is something I don't understand. Atheists don't run from challenges or contests.

To what end?
I mean, why should they bother?
We're all supposed to die, never to have any significant meaning in this meaningless accidental inconsequential world.
Why should it matter if some religious persons, skip a thread on the internet or masturbate on it?
What real meaning would it give?

Live your worldview man, you're demonstrating it to be unacheivable.

johnydon22:


Great assumption there but i am quite sure no where on this thread did i conclude therefore God did not exist, this thread wasn't about the existence of God it only questioned the feasibility of heaven/paradise/eternal bliss and sinless existence.

Maybe you should not have assumed to know the premise of the thread without really understanding the premise of the thread - again this thread does not argue that God does not exist as a matter of fact the whole argument is centered on the assumption that God actually exist.

Or maybe you should point pit where the article states God doesn't exist or concludes thus, i'd like to see that.

oh my bad. Pardon me. It's usually the end game of all atheist gimmicks.

If someone told me the following "If a teacher existed, with the ability to teach us all subjects effectively without the exception of any subject, we would have heard of such teacher".
I wouldn't have much to conclude either

winner01:
oh my bad. Pardon me. It's usually the end game of all atheist gimmicks.

with this type of assumption at the back of your head, how do you then understand a post before replying?

I have noticed here on Nairaland, everyone is in a box, they don't read the post to really understand the underlying points of the matter but just to reply and argue based on their preconceived assumption of the point you must have.

it is sad because i don't see any growth in that, it's an intellectual landlock, DoctorAlien replied without making such assumptions.

If someone told me the following "If a teacher existed, with the ability to teach us all subjects effectively without the exception of any subject, we would have heard of such teacher".
I wouldn't have much to conclude either

Well it makes me wonder what exactly your first reply here was about since you already made a mistake by assuming the premise of the thread which turned out to be wrong.

Anyway forgive me brother for not replying it, it's much too bulky plus the pictures and all.

Have a good one and assume less

winner01:
To what end?
I mean, why should they bother?
We're all supposed to die, never to have any significant meaning in this meaningless accidental inconsequential world.
Why should it matter if some religious persons, skip a thread on the internet or masturbate on it?
What real meaning would it give?

Live your worldview man, you're demonstrating it to be unacheivable.

Do you think we are going to use our Phd in heaven ?

Mind if i ask what you are studying or studied in school?

johnydon22:


Do you think we are going to use our Phd in heaven ?

Mind if i ask what you are studying or studied in school?

not really but it arguably should make no difference to someone with a naturalistic worldview if I have a PHD or want to be an armed robber.

As a Christian, I believe life is meaningful and valueable and not some cosmic incident. I do the best I can to help humanity and flow the life of God to others.

Over to you. What does it matter to you if I'm a highly paid assasin?

johnydon22:
with this type of assumption at the back of your head, how do you then understand a post before replying?

I have noticed here on Nairaland, everyone is in a box, they don't read the post to really understand the underlying points of the matter but just to reply and argue based on their preconceived assumption of the point you must have.

it is sad because i don't see any growth in that, it's an intellectual landlock, DoctorAlien replied without making such assumptions.



Well it makes me wonder what exactly your first reply here was about since you already made a mistake by assuming the premise of the thread which turned out to be wrong.

Anyway forgive me brother for not replying it, it's much too bulky plus the pictures and all.

Have a good one and assume less

Boo""

winner01:
not really but it arguably should make no difference to someone with a naturalistic worldview if I have a PHD or want to be an armed robber.

On a human scale, it would mean something to someone with naturalistic view but on a more cosmic scale, it wouldn't. It depends on what angle it is judged from and from scale of importance is.

As a Christian, I believe life is meaningful and valueable and not some cosmic incident.

Well yes i agree you believe so and that is quite profound, though being accidental doesn't really reduce the value.

Penicillin was accidental but still one of the most valuable and important leap in human medical science.

I do the best I can to help humanity and flow the life of God to others.

I like this reply, you see this reply. You divided your reply into two perspective, the heavenly perspective and the earthly perspective.

On the first instance above, you replied "not really" when i asked if we are going to use a Phd in heaven, which means from your heavenly perspective, a Phd is useless, its not useable in heaven, doesn't matter.

But now from your earthly perspective, what you do here can only be used to help humanity etc..

A naturalistic world view can also be divided thus.

a cosmic scale where a Phd is useless because you die and it ends and a smaller scale (earthly scale) where it is meaningful since it directly influences the world as it is this very moment.

Over to you. What does it matter to you if I'm a highly paid assasin?

From a human perspective, let me give a reply as Carl Sagan would " The evolutionary lesson is clear, humans are rare and they are young and vulnerable, if a human disagrees with you let him live because if you transverse the entirety of the cosmos, you will never find another.

Simply put: I live in the here and now, so whatever you do now and here matters to me sorely because of it's implications on now and here not here after

winner01:
Boo""

Hahahahahahahahaha i hope you have been alright, it's being a while you know?

how are you fairing?

Winner01,
The statement here is yours

"It’s interesting we get to pick what our Creator can/should or can not/should not do. Makes me wonder who the creator is here".

You have a point here, but this very idea is the reason I always fault religious doctrines.
The bible says/picks hundreds of things God did, could do and will do, things God likes and dislikes.

So I wonder, how the hell is all that correct? Last time I checked, men write books not God.

johnydon22:


On a human scale, it would mean something to someone with naturalistic view but on a more cosmic scale, it wouldn't. It depends on what angle it is judged from and from scale of importance is.
.

Lol. Why in Gods name would i care about what's happens on a cosmic scale when I can use my abilities to the fullest in the only chance I got got.

many atheists believe that the universe care should nothing about us, wouldn't it be fair enough to reciprocate the gesture? Tit for tat

johnydon22:

Well yes i agree you believe so and that is quite profound, though being accidental doesn't really reduce the value.

Penicillin was accidental but still one of the most valuable and important leap in human medical science.

So are x-ray images, stainless steel, plastic and many other things we enjoy.
Ultimate meaning is what these don't have. Why should I want to hold on to ultimate meaninglessness?

johnydon22:

I like this reply, you see this reply. You divided your reply into two perspective, the heavenly perspective and the earthly perspective
.

Which one is earthly perspective and heavenly perspective?
Have you ever gone through the following scriptures?

Philippians 2:4
Act 20:24
Romans 12:9-10
Amongst others.

johnydon22:

From a human perspective, let me give a reply as Carl Sagan would " The evolutionary lesson is clear, humans are rare and they are young and vulnerable, if a human disagrees with you let him live because if you transverse the entirety of the cosmos, you will never find another.

Still does not matter. I have a right as much as you or carl Sagan did not to give a damn about what you care for the universe or what the universe cares for you.

johnydon22:


Hahahahahahahahaha i hope you have been alright, it's being a while you know?

how are you fairing?

Doing great. Just wish I could spend more time here.

winner01:
Lol. Why in Gods name would i care about what's happens on a cosmic scale when I can use my abilities to the fullest in the only chance I got got.

cosmic perspective - Grand scale spanning through time

earthly perspective - here and now

many atheists believe that the universe care should nothing about us, wouldn't it be fair enough to reciprocate the gesture? Tit for tat

the universe is billions of years old (If you buy that), humans we live for say 100 years that is not even up to the fraction of a second in contrast to the universal timeline.

You may be indifferent to the universe since it spans more than your reach, the here and now, humans around you are just as fleeting as you are therefore matters more since the implications of your actions rests in the here and now.

If you give alms to a homeless man, it doesnt distort the orbit of mars neither will it help reverse the expansion of the universe rather it's implication can only be felt by the man who received the help -in here and now, right here on earth, at that very point, at that very moment in your lives.

So are x-ray images, stainless steel, plastic and many other things we enjoy.
Ultimate meaning is what these don't have. Why should I want to hold on to ultimate meaninglessness?

Well my point has been passed across apparently, accidental doesn't equate meaningless, ultimate meaning and non-ultimate meaning becomes another subject.

Which one is earthly perspective and heavenly perspective?

I'm quite certain i explained above boss

Have you ever gone through the following scriptures?
Philippians 2:4
Act 20:24
Romans 12:9-10
Amongst others.

i wouldn't know if i have, i will check them out when i am free and read more about them

Still does not matter. I have a right as much as you or carl Sagan did not to give a damn about what you care for the universe or what the universe cares for you.

Oh you do and also have a choice to consider the implications of your actions in the here and now not about the universal implications, the earthly implication, the societal implication, the human implication is just enough for you as a human in a human society living on earth.

winner01:
Doing great. Just wish I could spend more time here.

we all do but at some point we have more important things doing, money must be made you know

winner01:


According to the Christian worldview, God created a perfect world (earth), but did not create man in a perfect world (earth). The space between genesis 1:1 and 1:2 explains this clearly. The earlier verse speaks of God creating a perfect earth, the latter verse speaks of “tohu” which means wasteness and “bohu” which means emptiness. Today, it is generally referred to as “formless” and “void”. What would make the Almighty God’s perfect creation this way, we are not told but thankfully it is briefly mentioned in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28:12-19.

according to the Christian story, after the luciferian war or flood, the earth was fixed.. and therefore should have been perfect.. and even if the rest of the world wasn't, the garden of Eden was created to be a perfect environment.. please correct me if I'm wrong

A place called paradise seems to be unique to almost every generation of humanity, and why wouldn’t it be? Every soul seems to longs for eternity even if a few deny it. Here’s what the ex-atheist writer C. S. Lewis had to say on this topic. It’s popularly called “the argument from joy”.
www.nairaland.com/attachments/5777292_img7054_jpegfbb49b0f3da99592ae42ab0a4a00026b www.nairaland.com/attachments/5777293_img7053_jpegf5c998b3ce120689f66a6eb53adcdebe

i disagree that humans in general have the desire to live forever.. people have varying views.. many people would love to live longer.. not forever.. this is a test on quora asking people if they'd want to live forever.. generally.. we can agree that majority of humans fear death.. many would love to extend their life a couple hundred years maybe.. buy not forever.. death gives meaning to life.. humans generally fear death for different reasons.. some.. due to unachieved goals.. some due to the threat of the afterlife from their respective religions.. some is simply because of the fear of the unknown.. some because of their family or loved ones.. but its the fact that things don't last forever that makes us cherish them... so i disagree that man has the natural desire to be immortal..

The only strange I see here is the assertion above, especially with respect to the Christian worldview.
"I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have complete boldness, so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know..." - Apostle Paul

It seems to me that every Christian hopes to live and die in Christ. This is why death is usually referred to by Christians as a transition into glory. We do not have to wait till death to qualify. Elijah didn’t have to wait for instance.

Elijah wasn't a Christian.. contrary to Paul, although most Christians want to live and die in Christ, many Christians still fear death because of the different natures of the afterlife across many denominations.. the Christian view is that after death is judgement.. judgement determines if they'll transit to glory or anguish.. and the basis of judgement is what causes the uncertainty or fear.. again.. correct me if I'm wrong

According to the Christian worldview, this is inaccurate.

1. The preexistence of the human soul is well argued in many christian circles

the preexistence is not believed to be in a state of consciousness.. except you're talking of reincarnation

2. As earlier explained, God created a perfect world but humans were not created into a world that still retained this initially perfect state(to humans, perfect would mean all good).
A dictionary defines per·fect-ˈpərfikt/
having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.

was the garden of eden perfect? when God fixed the world.. after Genesis 1:2 .. was the world perfect, if yes, then man was created into a perfect world.. if no, then why was the world fixed after genesis 1:2 and why did God see that “it was good

4. The fall of man spelt destruction but God would later find a way to redeem man.

redeem man from what?

Man’s action did not ruin God’s perfect world, but rather God’s will for man.
Man is not tiny to God. That little spec of dust has a special place in God a while we are told in Psalm 8:4-8.
Regrettably, man can choose to accept or reject God’s love.

agreed

As earlier explained, Man could not ruin a perfect world.
As far as I know, a few things will change in heaven.

[quote]1. Revelation 21:4 reveals that there is unlikely to be evil in heaven. Man will live as robots, knowing only good.
2. Revelation 12:8 concedes that is no place for evil in heaven.
3. There will be neither freewill nor the abuse of it.

if there is no freewill nor abuse of it.. and man will live as robots as you've said.. then why not just do that in the first place.. why not initially create man as robots without freewill if man would still lack freewill there in heaven.. why the stress of hell? or maybe i misunderstood your comment..

That humans have an innate desire to live forever is quite an untrue assumption, humans more like fear death is truer than the former statement.

Insightful post, quite like the way you present your arguments.

johnydon22:
At a point here on nairaland i had a signature on which states; If a perfect God with the ability to create a perfect world exists and wants you to be in a perfect world, you would have been in a perfect world, there wouldn't be a need for such bizarre cruel test results determined by virtue of all knowledge

I would like you to mull over this and my proceeding points in this write-up, i aim to invoke deep thoughts about our beliefs and hopes.

In very many religions of the world there are concepts of paradise, heaven, valhalla. A supposedly perfect world of eternal bliss, sinless and without any atom of corruption where you may end up to live an infinite life of joy, happiness and plenty.


But there is a bizarre twist to this idea, this is where it gets strange.

"You must live and die first before it can be determined if you are qualified to gain this eternal bliss"

If we run our thoughts backwards in time, try to picture the state we were before birth then one can be exposed the bizarreness and cruelty of such unnecessary tests.

We didn't exist -

There were two choices before God, create these beings into a perfect world or create them into an imperfect world to test them over nothing.

If there is a perfect God with the ability to make a perfect world and this perfect God wants you to be in a perfect world, he would have pulled you directly from in-existence into this perfect world.

You didn't exist, so what exactly was the need for the test when you could be created exactly where God wills?

So if heaven is perfect at last, and everyone in heaven will turn out perfect then this means God is fully capable of creating a perfect world with perfect beings in it, which now begs the question "Why didn't God create that perfect world in the first place?"

Some persons that i know and talked about this issue with gave the answer that God initially created this world to be perfect but man's action ruined God's perfect plan.

It is amazing how the perfect plan of an all knowing and all powerful being can be thwarted by tiny man.

This answer calls into question the very purity of heaven, if man could ruin God's perfect world, what would change when man is now in heaven?

won't man also be able to ruin that too?

If you say that man cannot ruin heaven, the next question becomes - Why was man able to ruin this world but will be unable to ruin the next?

Take again as a second instance the story of Lucifer in Christian mythology, he was once an angel of God, one of Gods sons and was the bringer of light, a high ranked angel but became corrupt of his own essence, envied God's position and rebelled against God thus culminating to heavenly civil war that led to him being cast out of heaven alongside his followers.

Even heavenly beings in as this story goes are not immune to corruption, they are just as man still vulnerable to impurity and sin.

What will God do differently in paradise to avoid the whole saga repeating itself all over again and thus it keeps going?

cc. hahn, uyildredi, coolusername, plaetton, frank317

the very questions I have asked and not gotten an answer to. The very reason why I am so confident heaven can't exist.

HardMirror:

the very questions I have asked and not gotten an answer to. The very reason why I am so confident heaven can't exist.

there cannot be such a thing as perfection when there is freewill

johnydon22:


there cannot be such a thing as perfection when there is freewill

I have given up on nairaland. honestly u can't have sane and intellectual arguement here. I begin to agree with hahn, it makes more sense to take advantage of the gullibility of Nigerians than trying to enlighten them.

www.nairaland.com/3136664/embrace-death-atheist-time-what
all to what end? The idiiots still find it difficult to understand

HardMirror:

I have given up on nairaland. honestly u can't have sane and intellectual arguement here. I begin to agree with hahn, it makes more sense to take advantage of the gullibility of Nigerians than trying to enlighten them.

At some point in my journey (That is now) i no longer claim to be perfectly or absolutely correct on my opinions, i am beginning to enjoy paying attention to other people's points and perspective too, willing to also learn from them and let them enlighten me not about me doing the teaching and enlightenment but still i air my honest opinions about the subject being argued.

Maybe that is the reason i began to enjoy it once more

johnydon22:


At some point in my journey (That is now) i no longer claim to be perfectly or absolutely correct on my opinions, i am beginning to enjoy paying attention to other people's points and perspective too, willing to also learn from them and let them enlighten me not about me doing the teaching and enlightenment but still i air my honest opinions about the subject being argued.

Maybe that is the reason i began to enjoy it once more

where is the honesty? what have u learned from people who can't be honest with themselves? it is not about who is right, but honesty

HardMirror:

I have given up on nairaland. honestly u can't have sane and intellectual arguement here. I begin to agree with hahn, it makes more sense to take advantage of the gullibility of Nigerians than trying to enlighten them.

I don't think you can have a sane and intellectual argument anywhere. The only place I enjoy discussions these days in on Thinker's Lodge, a whatsapp group for nairaland atheists, but that place is not for the faint of heart. People who are emotional like ifeness, who has left the group 3 times, cannot seem to handle the emotional stress of having a discussion with people who criticize everything

But I love it!

johnydon22:


At some point in my journey (That is now) i no longer claim to be perfectly or absolutely correct on my opinions, i am beginning to enjoy paying attention to other people's points and perspective too, willing to also learn from them and let them enlighten me not about me doing the teaching and enlightenment but still i air my honest opinions about the subject being argued.

Maybe that is the reason i began to enjoy it once more

Having a discussion is only fun when it is had with people who are ready to have their opinions criticized and also ready to admit when they wrong. Otherwise it is a waste of time. There are a million better ways to make use of one's time

hahn:


Having a discussion is only fun when it is had with people who are ready to have their opinions criticized and also ready to admit when they wrong.

It works two ways brother, are you also ready to admit when you are wrong?

Otherwise it is a waste of time. There are a million better ways to make use of one's time

There are million better ways to use our time i agree but one can still chose to use it this way when he/she is free. it's a choice

johnydon22:


It works two ways brother, are you also ready to admit when you are wrong?

Always

There are million better ways to use our time i agree but one can still chose to use it this way when he/she is free. it's a choice

Sure. Always

johnydon22:


It works two ways brother, are you also ready to admit when you are wrong?



There are million better ways to use our time i agree but one can still chose to use it this way when he/she is free. it's a choice

yes like me admitting I am wrong about God right? and where have u gotten an honest reply from the religious folk ? how have they honestly replied u r thread? lol.
let us just be honest with ourselves here. I got no time for tongues in cheeks. I will spell it out. There is simply no HONESTY here.

HardMirror:

yes like me admitting I am wrong about God right? and where have u gotten an honest reply from the religious folk ? how have they honestly replied u r thread? lol.
let us just be honest with ourselves here. I got no time for tongues in cheeks. I will spell it out. There is simply no HONESTY here.

Na Johnny way bro

At least I can get to read something interesting when he debates

HardMirror:

yes like me admitting I am wrong about God right?

Not necessarily about God actually but you may also, opinions change so if yours does you may well agree.

and where have u gotten an honest reply from the religious folk ? how have they honestly replied u r thread? lol.

There is no need for argument if people do not defend their positions and opinions, basically i enjoy the arguments

let us just be honest with ourselves here. I got no time for tongues in cheeks. I will spell it out. There is simply no HONESTY here.

You are probably right, we all are biased in some way even without realizing so i wouldn't argue that statement.

i have argued with the likes of Dorox who is theistic and i can tell you he is one of a kind, our discussions is like butter in oil, i will try and find the links ..

DoctorAlien:


In heaven we would still be men, okay?(Rev. 21:3).

GOD actually values man more than angels(Jn. 3:16). Jesus Christ will, throughout eternity, bear the form of man. That's a privilege. GOD created man in His own image, but He did not create angels in His own image. It's a privilege to be a man. And I would rather be a man, than be an angel. Man is the crown of GOD's creation. Heaven would simply be a place of restoring man to his original position, and only then can we begin to know the glorious destiny which GOD prepared for man.

bravo! bravo!!
very veli intellijoint analysis

johnydon22:
Not necessarily about God actually but you may also, opinions change so if yours does you may well agree.



There is no need for argument if people do not defend their positions and opinions, basically i enjoy the arguments



You are probably right, we all are biased in some way even without realizing so i wouldn't argue that statement.

i have argued with the likes of Dorox who is theistic and i can tell you he is one of a kind, our discussions is like butter in oil, i will try and find the links ..

oh cool
I am interested