When I first came to Nairaland I have a plan. It was that I would conduct my conversations without reference to any Bible verses. I would take as my basis and starting point the common experiences that I share with my fellow conversationalist. And then build arguments from there.

My plan did not get very far because after a while at every turn I started getting accused of no using the bible. I tried to remain staunch and I admitted that I didn't and I explained why. But to no avail. it was always, 'which kind of pastor is this that never quotes from the bible'.

It got so bad that I realised that I couldn't get anywhere with a lot of people here unless I started quoting bible. And so I did. I quoted copious amounts of bible verses. I think I left many people quite discombobulated. The point of accusation shifted. I was told that I was quoting out of context. etc etc.

Many people here still use that excuse when you show them clear bible verses in support of an argument. The problem was not bible verse, or lack of, but rather one's understanding of the bible verse.

I thought this was all quite sad but nothing, and I mean NOTHING that I've seen so far has prepared me for what I am seeing now.

As the storm has been brewing over this Daddy Freeze's criticism of the unbiblical practice of Tithing in nigeria as found in threads such as this:

https://www.nairaland.com/4169532/daddy-freeze-replies-apostle-suleman

A new phenomenon has occurred. Now these so called Bible Based Christians are arguing at such incredible lengths without even so much as referring to a single bible verse on the matter of Tithing. The verses that Daddy Freeze has been firing at them are so deftly dodged it is almost as the verses and their mention are non existent. Not a single bible verse in response, yet they can keep up the dialogue extending to 13 pages at the time of writing this.

I am flummoxed.

PastorAIO:
When I first came to Nairaland I have a plan. It was that I would conduct my conversations without reference to any Bible verses. I would take as my basis and starting point the common experiences that I share with my fellow conversationalist. And then build arguments from there.

My plan did not get very far because after a while at every turn I started getting accused of no using the bible. I tried to remain staunch and I admitted that I didn't and I explained why. But to no avail. it was always, 'which kind of pastor is this that never quotes from the bible'.

It got so bad that I realised that I couldn't get anywhere with a lot of people here unless I started quoting bible. And so I did. I quoted copious amounts of bible verses. I think I left many people quite discombobulated. The point of accusation shifted. I was told that I was quoting out of context. etc etc.

Many people here still use that excuse when you show them clear bible verses in support of an argument.
The problem was not bible verse, or lack of, but rather one's understanding of the bible verse.

I can relate to the entirety

PastorAIO:
I thought this was all quite sad but nothing,
and I mean NOTHING that I've seen so far has prepared me for what I am seeing now.

As the storm has been brewing over this Daddy Freeze's criticism of the unbiblical practice of Tithing in nigeria as found in threads such as this:

h t tp://www.nairaland.com/4169532/daddy-freeze-replies-apostle-suleman

A new phenomenon has occurred.
Now these so called Bible Based Christians are arguing at such incredible lengths without even so much as referring to a single bible verse on the matter of Tithing.
The verses that Daddy Freeze has been firing at them are so deftly dodged it is almost as the verses and their mention are non existent.
Not a single bible verse in response, yet they can keep up the dialogue extending to 13 pages at the time of writing this.

I am flummoxed.

No bi today yansh tay dey for back nau.
Freeze wouldnt had bat an eyelid over the goose, otherwise known as tithe, that lays the golden egg,
if there were no Luke 11:42 21st century flourishing and spreading unchecked situations of injustice, unfairness and life devoid of the love of God

An Interesting school...following.

I Tried To Join The Illuminati and Got Scammed
Mack Lamoureux

The first message the Twitter user named Johnson Larry sent to me was pretty innocuous—the second one, not so much.

“Hello,” he initially wrote me before taking a brief pause. “Do you want to join Illuminati where we will be paying you the sum of $100,000 usd if yes get back to us now for more information.”

I, like we all would, responded in the affirmative that, hell yes, I would love to join the Illuminati.

I mean, who wouldn’t want to join the Illuminati? On top of joining the illustrious club of heavy hitters who run the world—like Beyoncé, Henry Kissinger, and the Queen—I would apparently be getting $100,000—in American dollars nonetheless!!! (Look, just getting paid in American dollars is a big deal for a Canadian.)

This was my ticket out of this hellhole, baby!

As our chat went on, I learned that Mr. Larry was the “Grand Master,” that it was his job to recruit people into the Illuminati, and that he had been in the group for 19 years or so. However, he wanted to take this conversation to WhatsApp—the official app of the secretive underworld.

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/a3jgj8/i-tried-to-join-the-illuminati-and-got-scammed


I read this and something rang a bell. I believe I've seen some offers like this here on Nairaland.

The biggest joke is that these guys actually score successes. There are even threads on NL of people requesting for lodges that they can join.

It's like Fela said: "See as african man life dey roll/ Suffer don dabaru him sense"

<< Matthew 6 >>
1 Take heed that ye do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them: else ye have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

A persona, in the word everyday usage, is a social role or a character played by an actor. This is an Italian word that derives from the Latin for "mask" or "character", derived from the Etruscan word "phersu", with the same meaning. Popular etymology derives the word from Latin "per" meaning "through" and "sonare" meaning "to sound", meaning something in the vein of "that through which the actor speaks", i.e. a mask (early Greek actors wore masks).

The persona is also the mask or appearance one presents to the world.[1] It may appear in dreams under various guises (see Carl Jung and his psychology). Importantly, the persona, used in this sense, is not a pose or some other intentional misrepresentation of the self to others. Rather, it is the self as self-construed, and may change according to situation and context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona

the persona


The persona is a complicated system of relations between individual consciousness and society, fittingly enough a kind of mask, designed on the one hand to make a definite impression upon others, and, on the other, to conceal the true nature of the individual.
"The Relations between the Ego and the Unconscious" (1928). In CW 7: Two Essays on Analytical Psychology. P.305

Every calling or profession has its own characteristic persona. It is easy to study these things nowadays, when the photographs of public personalities so frequently appear in the press. A certain kind of behaviour is forced on them by the world, and professional people endeavour to come up to these expectations. Only, the danger is that they become identical with their personas-the professor with his text-book, the tenor with his voice. Then the damage is done; henceforth he lives exclusively against the background of his own biography. . . . The garment of Deianeira has grown fast to his skin, and a desperate decision like that of Heracles is needed if he is to tear this Nessus shirt from his body and step into the consuming fire of the flame of immortality, in order to transform himself into what he really is. One could say, with a little exaggeration, that the persona is that which in reality one is not, but which oneself as well as others think one is.
"Concerning Rebirth" (1940). In CW 9, Part I: The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious. P.221

I once made the acquaintance of a very venerable personage - in fact, one might easily call him a saint. I stalked round him for three whole days, but never a mortal failing did I find in him. My feeling of inferiority grew ominous, and I was beginning to think seriously of how I might better myself. Then, on the fourth day, his wife came to consult me, Well, nothing of the sort has ever happened to me since. But this I did learn: that any man who becomes one with his persona can cheerfully let all disturbances manifest themselves through his wife without her noticing it, though she pays for her self-sacrifice with a bad neurosis.
"The Relations between the Ego and the Unconscious" (1928). In CW 7: Two Essays on Analytical Psychology. P.306

PR: We all have our pr. We invest so much of our energy and resources into maintaining it. By pr I mean the image that we present to the world. This is a fundamental aspect of our psychological make up, the need to be seen in a certain way by society. The awful truth is that no one is like their pr. There is so much more to the human being than the way he presents himself. In fact I can say with almost total certainty that the the truth about someone involves the diametric opposite of the manner in which they have presented themselves.

But what has all this got to do with Religion? Well I believe that the mask and all the investment and energy that we put into it is a major stumbling block to spiritual growth.

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From here: https://www.nairaland.com/320733/back-track-jack#4505079

PastorAIO:







http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona




PR: We all have our pr. We invest so much of our energy and resources into maintaining it. By pr I mean the image that we present to the world. This is a fundamental aspect of our psychological make up, the need to be seen in a certain way by society. The awful truth is that no one is like their pr. There is so much more to the human being than the way he presents himself. In fact I can say with almost total certainty that the the truth about someone involves the diametric opposite of the manner in which they have presented themselves.

But what has all this got to do with Religion? Well I believe that the mask and all the investment and energy that we put into it is a major stumbling block to spiritual growth.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From here: https://www.nairaland.com/320733/back-track-jack#4505079

please can you shed more light on the difference between the intentional misrepresentation of self to others and the self as self construed. Also how does investing in ones persona prove a stumbling block to spiritual growth. Shouldn't everyone have a persona and a good persona at that? Wouldn't that require some level of investment? I sense this might have to do with the level of investment one puts in and if so how does one know the level that would be deemed dangerous to spiritual growth?

Geist:
please can you shed more light on the difference between the intentional misrepresentation of self to others and the self as self construed. Also how does investing in ones persona prove a stumbling block to spiritual growth. Shouldn't everyone have a persona and a good persona at that? Wouldn't that require some level of investment? I sense this might have to do with the level of investment one puts in and if so how does one know the level that would be deemed dangerous to spiritual growth?

First, what is the difference between 'intentional misrepresentation' and the 'self as self construed'.

With intentional misrepresentation you know full well that you have qualities unlike the image you are projecting. If people see you as honest and uncovetuous yet deep down you know that you are well capable of stealing, and yet still you purposely promote and project the self image of not being a thief.... Then that is an intentional misrepresentation.

On the other hand we are also quite capable of lying to ourselves and in fact our self image, the way we see ourselves consciously, is necessarily based on a lie. The self image you have of yourself is created by an often subconscious process that involves suppressing certain elements of your Self and highlighting certain others. By the time it emerges as a conscious self image the lie has already set in and you don't even know yourself that you are nothing like the way you see yourself. At this point if your self image can be demonstrated to be false to you the effect can even be quite Traumatic.

Much has been made of the human ability for Cognitive Dissonance. This is when two contradictory positions can be held simultaneously without any feeling of disturbance. Or when one can hold a position and yet be fully aware of facts that contradict that position, without any feeling of disturbance.


Secondly, How does cultivating a persona detract from spiritual growth? Isn't cultivating a good persona a good thing?


I don't want to present my opinions as a strictly christian position. However I make reference to the teachings of Jesus in Matthew 6.

1“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.


4so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.


5“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.




The reward gained by ostentation is the social acclaim. That is where the benefit stops. There is no inner or spiritual advantage.

True spiritual growth will require a more astute self appraisal than is done in cultivating public image. Spiritual growth requires quite the opposite. A regular confession of true inner sentiments and deeds.
I'll explain why in a subsequent post..

Practice vs Profession

Once upon a time there was a King of a mighty Kingdom. He was so powerful that no one was brave enough to contradict him anymore. He was very recalcitrant. And he always got what he wanted.

Some people feared that he might be mad for his recalcitrance knew no bounds. He would not hear 'no' from anybody, would not even accept physical impossibilities. He could get angry at a tree that fell across his path blocking it. Before you knew it he would have ordered the execution of the tree... by hanging.

One day, the king awoke and prepared for the day's business. He looked in the mirror to admire his fine form before he stepped out only to receive a shock. The figure staring back at him was not the slim fit good looker that he remembered. One fat unhealthy looking figure was staring back at him.

He went to another mirror and another and it was the same result. He was livid. He called his prime minister, who was a very wise man. " what is going on, why do I look so unhealthy?", he yelled.
The Prime minister had to think fast. Sharp sharp his mouth came out with an answer that he felt would pacify the King and save himself from a great deal of wahala. You see, he couldn't tell the king that he was fat.
"Your majesty, sire, The Mirror has been jazzed. An evil witch has cast a spell on all the mirrors in the kingdom, so any mirror you gaze at will show you this nasty image".

"Hmmm", the king grunted satisfied with his prime ministers diagnoses. " So what do we do?".

"Well, your highness, I've heard that there is one true mirror hidden in the hills that her magic couldn't affect. If you can find that mirror then you'll once again see your true form, and it will break the spell on all the other mirrors".

"Then we must begin seeking for this mirror right away", the King ordered.

So it ensued that everyday the king and his prime minister would walk up and down the hills every morning before the start of business and every evening before the sun went down. This went on for a little while. A few weeks, then a few months. Then one day when the prime minister noticed that the king had lost significant weight due to all the walking up and down the hills everyday, he stole out very early in the morning before the King's arose and he planted a mirror under a rock where he knew the king would find it.

Sure enough that morning the King found the mirror and when he looked into it he was delighted to see a splendidly slim figured guy looking back at him.
The spell had been Broken!!

Since it has been established that we find ourselves at the mercy of numerous urges for which we seek gratification, I would also like to add that all human activity is an attempt to achieve gratification of them.

I mean that all cultural artifacts, all individual behaviour, everything human can be traced back to the need to satisfy some urge or the other. Including Religion and Religious cults.

In fact I believe that nothing can tell you more about the inner emotional state of a person than the religious beliefs he adopts.

These cultural artifacts and institutions such as Religious Cults serve as nothing other than Vehicles through which we can achieve Gratification of our various Urges.

For instance we know that we all have a strong urge for Social Recognition. We have developed a lorra lorra institutions to cater to this. For instance many countries have an honour system. In the UK you can be MBE or OBE or CBE and then everybody will call you Sir or Dame, or even higher you can get Lordship or Ladyship etc etc etc.

Or you can join a religious cult that has much paraphernalia and titles etc etc
Jesus has strong words for those who delight in such cults:
Matt 23

5“They do everything to be seen by people. They increase the size of their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. 6They love to have the places of honor at festivals, the best seats in the synagogues, 7to be greeted in the marketplaces, and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by people.

There are many human institutions that cater to our need for social recognition but what if that urge is a stumbling block to spiritual growth?

What I'm trying to do is break human behaviour down to the nitty gritty and see what makes us tick. And I find that most so called religious activity actually has it's source from the most un-evolved and basest of human urges. I find above all, Christianity to be the worst culprit. An affair that is really just Human, All Too Pathetically Human.

If God did not exist, humans would still create religious cults because of it's usefulness to our basest instincts. It is a vehicle to serve our most unrefined urges.

What is said to matter is the Profession of a Religious doctrine and the membership of a religious cult. Once you are recognised as a this or that religious member than you can be given your due respect.

What about the man whose way of life demonstrates a 'higher' state of being? Let's say, a man who practices a way of life as Jesus taught. Yet this man was not a christian and not a member of any religious cult. Did not have any friends in high society, was not recognised by anyone?

In other words, a man that does not Profess christian, yet practices the teachings of Jesus. Does not seek social recognition to the detriment of his spiritual life, Does not fuel his ego et etc.

I say his case is like that of the King who goes on long daily walks without realising that he is exercising. Even though he may be deceived to thinking that he is looking for a magic mirror, in actual fact the end result is what actually matters.

The way I see Religion in Nigeria is as follows.

We have a people suffering considerable Angst causing a very hateful nature to evolve in them.

They need a vehicle via which to express this Hatefulness.

They find that Abrahamic religions are well suited to their need because they contain doctrines of being special and chosen above non cult members. And They are very combative, and the belief is that all will end with those that they hate so much burning in hell fire.

In my perception this is the beginning and ending of the use of these Religious cults in Nigeria.

PastorAIO:
Practice vs Profession

I must say I enjoyed this story and pondered on it.

Edit: The next posts answered my question.

PastorAIO:
The way I see Religion in Nigeria is as follows.

We have a people suffering considerable Angst causing a very hateful nature to evolve in them.

They need a vehicle via which to express this Hatefulness.

They find that Abrahamic religions are well suited to their need because they contain doctrines of being special and chosen above non cult members. And They are very combative, and the belief is that all will end with those that they hate so much burning in hell fire.

In my perception this is the beginning and ending of the use of Religious cults in Nigeria.

Interesting.

Are you not afraid of making a generalization mistake?

I mean, I do agree that a cult/religion is attractive to people who usually have certain common traits, especially inner urges, and there are general similar tendencies within a religion. Still, I think there could be other factors not to neglect.

First off within a religion/culture there are other sub cultures and sometimes there are great differences from one sub culture to another. For instance Jehovah witnesses could be quite different from Opus Dei adherents.

Second sometimes a religion is not chosen but ascribed, due to ridiculous things like place of birth.

LoJ:

Interesting.

Are you not afraid of making a generalization mistake?

I mean, I do agree that a cult/religion is attractive to people who usually have certain common traits, especially inner urges, and there are general similar tendencies within a religion. Still, I think there could be other factors not to neglect.

First off within a religion/culture there are other sub cultures and sometimes there are great differences from one sub culture to another. For instance Jehovah witnesses could be quite different from Opus Dei adherents.

Second sometimes a religion is not chosen but ascribed, due to ridiculous things like place of birth.

Actually no, I had no fear of making a generalization mistake, but now I think about it perhaps I should have.

However, I am fully aware that there are exceptions to the scenario I described. yet the basic idea remains intact. Not every christian is a hateful person, but then Abrahamic religions are so broad. The kinder, more genteel, personality will find plenty in the bible to support her sentimental disposition. but it would involved ignoring a lot that does not serve as a vehicle for what she needs to express.
Similarly the hateful christian will ignore such doctrines in the religious cult that call for Love. They could read it point blank and it still wouldn't register.

cults and subcultures are still vehicles for expressing sentiments, and there can be quite a variety of them, even contradicting variety, under the umbrella of one religion.


Religions can be ascribed to due to place of birth in which case it is well suited to serve feelings of nationalistic pride, sense of belonging etc etc.
Have you ever heard the argument that one shouldn't 'forsake the religion of your fathers'.
The issue is not whether the religion is true or not. The issue is that there is a family tradition and out of filial loyalty one ought to adhere to that religion.

PastorAIO:
However, I am fully aware that there are exceptions to the scenario I described. yet the basic idea remains intact. Not every christian is a hateful person, but then Abrahamic religions are so broad. The kinder, more genteel, personality will find plenty in the bible to support her sentimental disposition. but it would involved ignoring a lot that does not serve as a vehicle for what she needs to express.
Similarly the hateful christian will ignore such doctrines in the religious cult that call for Love. They could read it point blank and it still wouldn't register.

I quite agree with that.

Matthew 21

28 “What do you think? A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 29 And he answered, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he changed his mind and went. 30 And he went to the other son and said the same. And he answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but did not go. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you.


It is often believed by many christians that professing with the mouth is what will save someone. I've always argued against this. It is actions and the way your life is conducted that will save you.

Those that have convinced you that you can be saved with mouth alone are dragging you into perdition.

PastorAIO:
Matthew 21

28 “What do you think? A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’
29 And he answered, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he changed his mind and went.
30 And he went to the other son and said the same. And he answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but did not go.
31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you

It is often believed by many christians that professing with the mouth is what will save someone.
I've always argued against this.
It is actions and the way your life is conducted that will save you.

Those that have convinced you that you can be saved with mouth alone are dragging you into perdition.

Parable

²⁵ On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus.
“Teacher,” he asked,
“what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
²⁶“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
²⁷He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.

²⁸“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

²⁹But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

³⁰In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead.
³¹A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side.
³²So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
³³But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him.
³⁴He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him.
³⁵The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
³⁶“Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
³⁷The expert in the law replied,
“The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise”
- Luke 10:25-37

Christians mostly never question and so usually are dogmatic

d:
but why is it bad? Did your DNA tell you that?

May I divulge some biblical knowledge to you.

It is believed according to the bible that the sense of Morality (knowledge of Good and Evil) is ingrained in Man due to the fact that Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

The writers of the bible know that the sense of Morality is ingrained in all Humans. You don't have to join any religious doctrine to have a moral code. You don't need to believe in God either. It's congenital from the time of Adam to this very day.

The bible goes Further. It's says that acquiring a Sense of Morality will turn you in to a God.

There is a instinctive responsibility ingrained along with the Moral sense. Every human being tries to maximise what he believes is Good and tries to minimize what he believes is Bad.
We strive in every second of our lives to make things Better rather than worse. The only time you can see someone willingly making things worse is when their perspective is different from yours. To you they are making things worse but for them they are striving to make things better.

The instinct to Strive to reshape the world according to our Moral inclination makes us partakers of the creation process. It makes us Gods.

PastorAIO:


May I divulge some biblical knowledge to you.

It is believed according to the bible that the sense of Morality (knowledge of Good and Evil) is ingrained in Man due to the fact that Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

The writers of the bible know that the sense of Morality is ingrained in all Humans. You don't have to join any religious doctrine to have a moral code. You don't need to believe in God either. It's congenital from the time of Adam to this very day.

The bible goes Further. It's says that acquiring a Sense of Morality will turn you in to a God.

There is a instinctive responsibility ingrained along with the Moral sense. Every human being tries to maximise what he believes is Good and tries to minimize what he believes is Bad.
We strive in every second of our lives to make things Better rather than worse. The only time you can see someone willingly making things worse is when their perspective is different from yours. To you they are making things worse but for them they are striving to make things better.

The instinct to Strive to reshape the world according to our Moral inclination makes us partakers of the creation process. It makes us Gods.

Pastor please, when and how did the bible say acquiring a Sense of Morality will turn us into a God and how do we partake in the creation process by shaping the world the world according to our Moral inclination?

Geist:
Pastor please, when and how did the bible say acquiring a Sense of Morality will turn us into a God and how do we partake in the creation process by shaping the world the world according to our Moral inclination?

Genesis Chapter 3

5For God (elohim) knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God (elohim), knowing good and evil.”


22Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.



Imagine what would have happened if Adam and Eve hadn't the knowledge of Good and evil.... They would not have the responsibility of making moral decisions. Whatever they did would be done by pure impulse without moral considerations. When hungry they would seize the first source of food, when Hot they would have impulsively grabbed the first sexual partner etc etc.

When you become a moral creature you now have a responsibility to strive for the Good. When you see an unfair situation you will feel compelled to mend it. When you look around the world you judge it, and after judging it, you try to execute judgement, ie right the wrongs.

These are divine duties.


Psalm 82

1God (elohim) has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods (elohim) he holds judgment:
2“How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

5They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6I said, “You are gods (elohim),
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”a

8Arise, O gods (elohim), judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!

Geist:
Pastor please, when and how did the bible say acquiring a Sense of Morality will turn us into a God and how do we partake in the creation process by shaping the world the world according to our Moral inclination?

I just realise that I'm unhappy about the answer I gave above. I feel reluctant to base any arguments I make on this thread on bible passages.

The post which started this line of inquiry was copy-and-pasted from another Thread actually.

I would like to continue to talk about morality but without quoting from the bible.

PastorAIO:


I just realise that I'm unhappy about the answer I gave above. I feel reluctant to base any arguments I make on this thread on bible passages.

The post which started this line of inquiry was copy-and-pasted from another Thread actually.

I would like to continue to talk about morality but without quoting from the bible.

I am more than happy basing arguments on anything other than the bible so long as it makes sense and it's true. But I have noticed like I'm sure you have also noticed, many people base arguments on the bible with little or no knowledge of it. From my perspective, it helps if one can counter untrue claims of what the bible says with what the bible actually says. Which is why I asked specifically for bible passages. I value logical reason above all.

PastorAIO:
I just realise that I'm unhappy about the answer I gave above. I feel reluctant to base any arguments I make on this thread on bible passages.

The post which started this line of inquiry was copy-and-pasted from another Thread actually.

I would like to continue to talk about morality but without quoting from the bible.

Geist:
I am more than happy basing arguments on anything other than the bible so long as it makes sense and it's true.

Basing arguments on bible makes sense and it's true so long as whoever quotes from it understands what he/her quotes(d)

Geist:
But I have noticed like I'm sure you have also noticed,
many people base arguments on the bible with little or no knowledge of it
From my perspective, it helps if one can counter untrue claims of what the bible says with what the bible actually says

A classic one is purporting that the bible says acquiring a Sense of Morality will turn us into a God.
and trying to back it up with quoting Genesis 3:5 and particularly Genesis 3:22

Geist:
Which is why I asked specifically for bible passages. I value logical reason above all.

Genesis 3:22 begs the question, did they at all, like the serpent pretended, become God?
Not a chance of ice in hell, hence the pftt sarcasm in Genesis 3:22

If I may PastorAIO, I would like to hear your thoughts on why humans end up having difference in moral judgement. Since this Apple ought to have made us like God( that is becoming a judge of what is right and wrong), shouldn't we all be having the same moral judgement? or do you believe God also has this different contradicting morals like humans do. Of course all these questions become useless if don't believe what the bible says as it says it. I would also like to hear your reasons for not wanting to base arguments on the bible

PastorAIO:
The way I see Religion in Nigeria is as follows.

We have a people suffering considerable Angst causing a very hateful nature to evolve in them.

They need a vehicle via which to express this Hatefulness.

They find that Abrahamic religions are well suited to their need because they contain doctrines of being special and chosen above non cult members. And They are very combative, and the belief is that all will end with those that they hate so much burning in hell fire.

In my perception this is the beginning and ending of the use of these Religious cults in Nigeria.

Why bother with religion at all?

Geist:
If I may PastorAIO, I would like to hear your thoughts on why humans end up having difference in moral judgement. Since this Apple ought to have made us like God( that is becoming a judge of what is right and wrong), shouldn't we all be having the same moral judgement? or do you believe God also has this different contradicting morals like humans do. Of course all these questions become useless if don't believe what the bible says as it says it. I would also like to hear your reasons for not wanting to base arguments on the bible

Thanks for the question. I've actually addressed it on the thread that I copy and pasted my initial post from. I'll just copy and post that one too if you don't mind. It is tackled more from a darwinian evolutionary perspective.






What I didn't say, but quite clearly implied in the post is that our Sense-Of-Morality is part of the mechanism that gives us our Social Instinct.

Then why do different people have different moral views? Is it evolving in only some places

This is actually a very good question. Well Done!!

Going back to Darwin. As a species we are best served by organising ourselves into societies. These societies are based on some moral code or the other. What would be the best way to survive the vicissitudes of history, ranging from natural disasters, to wars, to whatever ....

Ans: A good diversity of societies. Some challenges that certain societies may not be able to survive, others will because of their unique characteristics. While one society might exploit it's environment up to a point that the environment will no longer be able to sustain the society, another society (even in the same environment) will be able to survive due to it's own unique characteristic. Some people live on water and fish for Livelihood. If Lagos were to suffer a 20 year flooding today which society do you think will survive in Lagos. The Land based one or the water based one.


Morality gives us a basis to form all sorts of societies. Forming Societies is a evolutionary advantage for our species.


https://www.nairaland.com/4305346/why-atheists-love-bashing-religion/4#64562827

Emmanystone:

Why bother with religion at all?

Good question. can I come back to this tomorrow? I've got to dash now.

Geist:
If I may PastorAIO, I would like to hear your thoughts on why humans end up having difference in moral judgement.

Degeneration

Geist:
Since this Apple

Let's get this straight first.
It wasnt an apple. OK?

Geist:
ought to have made us like God

Something else mentioned without discussing at length
that eating the fruit will make Adam and Eve be like God

Geist:
(that is becoming a judge

You swapped in judge for Elohim, I like you for taking the risk
but it is unneccesary because judge doesnt gel with the context

Geist:
of what is right and wrong)

No, it didn't and/or doesn't mean of what is right and wrong

Geist:
shouldn't we all be having the same moral judgement?

We will

Geist:
or do you believe God also has this different contradicting morals like humans do.

No

Geist:
Of course all these questions become useless if don't believe what the bible says as it says it.

You said it!

Geist:
I would also like to hear your reasons for not wanting to base arguments on the bible

Anti-bible subconscious bias?

PastorAIO:


Good question. can I come back to this tomorrow? I've got to dash now.

Now is the tomorrow, so, yeah.

Emmanystone:

Now is the tomorrow, so, yeah.

Emmanystone:

Now is the tomorrow, so, yeah.

Emmanystone:

Why bother with religion at all?

Thank you for the wonderful question.

I'll answer in in a number of stages:

1)What is religion?

2)What are the methods of religion?

3)How do we best manage the use of Cults in religion?


1- What is religion? Ans: In a world where Mankind finds himself alienated and at odds with his state of reality, fractured from Divinity and from his environment, Religion is a means to Re-ligere, that is to re-bind, to reconnect him to his environment and to his Divinity.

2- There are many methods used in Religion, e.g sacrifices, fasting, observance of calendar days etc. But for the issue of this topic the most important is the formation and cultivation of Cults.
What is the religious use of Cults? There is a saying that birds of a feather flock together. There is a characteristic that is shared amongst all members of a cult. It is often not obvious at all, but over time even the newest members will become like the rest of the cult in that particular.

There is also a saying, sorry to quote bible again, that a little Leaven leaveneth a whole lump. What does this mean?
Leaven is yeast combination that you put into Bread dough. Just a little in a lump of dough will turn the whole dough into Leaven because of course yeast grows and as it grows into the dough the dough too will become Leaven.

So when you see human beings as Leaven that means that when you come into contact with other human beings, you will slowly become like them. Even if you have no leaven in you at all after a few interactions their leaven will enter you and you will become 'en-leavened'. Thus you will also become capable of passing on that leaven to other people you meet.
This is why it is important to distance oneself from Wicked people. You will slowly become infected with their attitude. By the same token one should seek out associations with people with qualities that you wish to cultivate in yourself. over time you will become leavened with their leaven.



3)[/b]How do we best manage the use of Cults in religion


So going back to cults. If a church is filled to the rimmed with nasty devilish, demonic, desperate, mendacious, thieving reprobates and you go there every week and join with them in fellowship, sometimes even 3 times a week or more, Imagine the kind of damage you are doing to yourself. Don't listen to that Lie from the pit of Hell that you are not there for the other people, it's just between you and God. Their leaven will infect you.

[b]1 Cor 5

1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife. 2And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

3For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.a

6Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the churchb whom you are to judge? 13God judgesc those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”


So what do you do when the entire church is as this man Paul writes about, not just in sexual immorality but in all other forms of vice too? Since you cannot kick everybody out of the cult and remain the only person inside, is it not better to leave it?

This is actually a very deep teaching that encompasses more than just religious devotion. If I want be a good mathematician I am best advised to cultivate associations with other mathematician, especially those much better than me in order to imbibe their leaven. If I want to be a musician I have a better chance to develop by cultivating the company of other superior musicians so that it rubs off on me. Those that delight in being a big fish in a small pond, or being a local champion often end up getting disgraced in the end. Go out and seek the friendship of people who embody qualities that you admire and would like to develop in yourself. If you seek to be humble, run away when you see arrogant people. Any interaction with them whatsoever is a detriment to you. Even if you have the upper hand in the interaction you are a million times more better off ignoring them as if they don't exist.

So you see Cults are very important and very powerful vehicle for spiritual growth however we need to be very careful which one's we are getting involved in.

PastorAIO:

What is religion? Ans: In a world where Mankind finds himself alienated and at odds with his state of reality, fractured from Divinity and from his environment, Religion is a means to Re-ligere, that is to re-bind, to reconnect him to his environment and to his Divinity.

I'm quite sure this does not refer to me, as i do not, and have never attempted to reconnect to any divinity. I never even knew i was disconnected in the first place. This is what separates me from the dome of the world's religion you so desperately try to robe me in.

See, i am a Christian, and in Christianity, Christ calls us into a Love relationship. We fall in Love with each other, so, NO, i do not reconnect to divinity, Divinity sort me out and drew me into His, arms in Love.

Jesus is my bridegroom, i am his bride.

In all these religions you keep talking about, making mine seem like theirs, pls tell me one of which their object of worship says to them, "You are mine, and i have loved you with an everlasting Love". Jesus is personal to me. He never gave me a religion, He gave me Himself, Love.

PastorAIO:

2- There are many methods used in Religion, e.g sacrifices, fasting, observance of calendar days etc.

And, what sacrifice does Christians do? And pls give me your answer with a scripture to back this up.

PastorAIO:

But for the issue of this topic the most important is the formation and cultivation of Cults.
What is the religious use of Cults? There is a saying that birds of a feather flock together. There is a characteristic that is shared amongst all members of a cult. It is often not obvious at all, but over time even the newest members will become like the rest of the cult in that particular.

Whatever you say man. If calling Christianity a cult will abate that Constipation, why not? Get on with it.

PastorAIO:

There is also a saying, sorry to quote bible again, that a little Leaven leaveneth a whole lump. What does this mean?
Leaven is yeast combination that you put into Bread dough. Just a little in a lump of dough will turn the whole dough into Leaven because of course yeast grows and as it grows into the dough the dough too will become Leaven.
So when you see human beings as Leaven that means that when you come into contact with other human beings, you will slowly become like them. Even if you have no leaven in you at all after a few interactions their leaven will enter you and you will become 'en-leavened'.

Is this why you can't break free from the hatred you have for Christianity? You have to keep talking against her to distance yourself from her?

Wait! Are you scared of being leavened?

See enh, guy. Following you closely here, i know which camp you belong to, but, it never occurs to me to think of you influencing me to become what you are or open a thread to talk about you. To me, What you believe in, is your choice. And, i believe you are grown up enough to count the cost of your actions. Your leaven can not come close to affecting me, i think it shd be so with you also.

PastorAIO:

Thus you will also become capable of passing on that leaven to other people you meet.
This is why it is important to distance oneself from Wicked people. You will slowly become infected with their attitude. By the same token one should seek out associations with people with qualities that you wish to cultivate in yourself. over time you will become leavened with their leaven.

Yeah. That is the same thing as saying "Bad company corrupts good maaners".
That is why the Bible enjoins us Christians to stick to each other, and come out from amongst the Seeds of darkness, for what has light got to do with darkness?

'As water answereth to the face, so the deep Calleth to the deep'. Right here in this pit, we see how people of like passions naturally blend and fuse together. If you check the threads, you'd see those with the same spirits tilting towards each other. Like attracks like. It's natural.

PastorAIO:

b]3)[/b]How do we best manage the use of Cults in religion

Is religion/Christianity a cult or you mean men have introduced cult into her?

PastorAIO:

So going back to cults. If a church is filled to the rimmed with nasty devilish, demonic, desperate, mendacious, thieving reprobates and you go there every week and join with them in fellowship, sometimes even 3 times a week or more, Imagine the kind of damage you are doing to yourself. Don't listen to that Lie from the pit of Hell that you are not there for the other people, it's just between you and God. Their leaven will infect you. [color=#770077]

Hmmmm. So, How will you call a nasty, devilish, demonic, desperate, mandacious, reprobatic thieving gathering a Church? Can you sincerely say that is the assembly Jesus called together before going to Heaven? Or, are we now confused to call every gathering where people gather a Church?

The Last time a check, satan also has his people gathering as a Church. They even went as far as calling themselves 'Church of Satan'.

Jesus is coming for a sinless Church, without any wrinkle or blemish. He is not coming for Goats and wolves who pretend to be sheep in the midst of the sheep. When He comes, He'll seperate the Sheep from the goat.
Good News Translation Malachi 3:18
Once again my people will see the difference between what happens to the righteous and to the wicked, to the person who serves me and the one who does not.”

Here is what the Holy Spirit says about the people you mentioned.
Romans 1:28-31.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Good News Translation 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Surely you know that the wicked will not possess God's Kingdom.
Do not fool yourselves; people who are immoral or who worship idols or are adulterers or homosexual perverts or who steal or are greedy or are drunkards or who slander others or are thieves—none of these will possess God's Kingdom.

Here, you have seen that the people you mentioned are not Christians. Going to Church makes no one a Christian, just like spending time in a garage makes no one a Car.

PastorAIO:

1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife. 2And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

Now, you have concurred that evil doers are not Christians, although they pretend to preach the gospel. For the Master shall say to them 'depart from me you workers of iniquity, for i know you not'.

PastorAIO:

So what do you do when the entire church is as this man Paul writes about, not just in sexual immorality but in all other forms of vice too? Since you cannot kick everybody out of the cult and remain the only person inside, is it not better to leave it?

Yes, the best thing to do will be to leave the place because they do not represent Christ there. But, leaving a place like that, doesn't mean you should leave Christ, because, none of those men are you model, Christ is. And, as long as you didn't see any of their trait in Christ, you follow He who called you to everladting life. That's why we have a Bible. You don't throw in the Towel and say, 'Christianity is a Farce', because Men have become senseless.

PastorAIO:

This is actually a very deep teaching that encompasses more than just religious devotion. If I want be a good mathematician I am best advised to cultivate associations with other mathematician, especially those much better than me in order to imbibe their leaven. If I want to be a musician I have a better chance to develop by cultivating the company of other superior musicians so that it rubs off on me. Those that delight in being a big fish in a small pond, or being a local champion often end up getting disgraced in the end. Go out and seek the friendship of people who embody qualities that you admire and would like to develop in yourself. If you seek to be humble, run away when you see arrogant people. Any interaction with them whatsoever is a detriment to you. Even if you have the upper hand in the interaction you are a million times more better off ignoring them as if they don't exist.

So, so, true. And, If i didn't know you, i'd ve said, you are joining me to preach Christ. Oh Well, Paul says Which ever way, Christ is preached.

PastorAIO:

So you see Cults are very important and very powerful vehicle for spiritual growth however we need to be very careful which one's we are getting involved in.

Also true.

But......, You still did not answer my question. Knowing you as an irreligious person, you opened this thread on religion, hence; i asked 'Why even bother with religion?'. What i meant was, Why not just pretend the religious don't exist and enjoy your beautiful life?

Anyways. I really enjoyed reading you. Thank you for the exhortation.

Emmanystone:

I'm quite sure this does not refer to me, as i do not, and have never attempted to reconnect to any divinity. I never even knew i was disconnected in the first place. This is what separates me from the dome of the world's religion you so desperately try to robe me in.

See, i am a Christian, and in Christianity, Christ calls us into a Love relationship. We fall in Love with each other, so, NO, i do not reconnect to divinity, Divinity sort me out and drew me into His, arms in Love.

Abeg please don't come and litter this thread with your nonsense. I have not read past the part that I've quoted. I'm not trying to rope you into anything and as you are sure it does not refer to you then just leave it.

The Christ that you are claiming there put it best:

And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Mark 2: 17

So since you are so confident that you have no need of a physician and you are not even aware that you have a problem then no wahala. Go on your way.

Religion is for people who have problems and need them resolved. Bye bye

PastorAIO:


Abeg please don't come and litter this thread with your nonsense. I have not read past the part that I've quoted. I'm not trying to rope you into anything and as you are sure it does not refer to you then just leave it.

The Christ that you are claiming there put it best:

And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Mark 2: 17

So since you are so confident that you have no need of a physician and you are not even aware that you have a problem then no wahala. Go on your way.

Religion is for people who have problems and need them resolved. Bye bye

Ah, It seems PastorAIO has become a religious person who has a problem needing the help of Christ. What am i not seeing?

You who attack Christisns for their beliefs in Christ is now acting like a fanatic? Hahahahahahahahaha. Okokobioko.