This thread isn't for someone that has concluded that he's seen the ultimate truth. It is for someone that is ready to open his mind and see beyond the wall of his indoctrinated mind.

Happy reading

I'll park ready either ways, if only to see if the op himself is the indoctrinated one.

You can't be a believer in any abrahamic religion unless you submit your rational mind.

Immidiately you begin to use your brain adequately, you begin to deviate from your religion.

Xmuslim

It is the religious people who always live in a cage, bound tightly to dogmatic faith.

Pranith aditya

As an ex muslim, I choose to talk about Islam because I wasted my whole life on this MAN-MADE nonsense.

I want muslims to RESEARCH Islam for themselves honestly and rationally. Only THEN come to a conclusion if Islam is from God or is it man-made.

Mick Bustin

It's important to enlighten Muslims about their silly scriptures and the harm it is causing the world. If they can do Dawah so can we !

Starlord

If you are the most powerful mafia BOSS in the world that is more powerful than the government. If a member of your gang quits and start exposing your mafia gang. What will you do?
A. Sit down and watch the traitor bring down your powerful mafia?
B. Make the traitor disappear? Remember you are more powerful than the government. Sooner you might become less powerful if the traitor keeps talking.

Ishaq Ibrahim

Xmuslim:

If you are the most powerful mafia BOSS in the world that is more powerful than the government. If a member of your gang quits and start exposing your mafia gang. What will you do?
A. Sit down and watch the traitor bring down your powerful mafia?
B. Make the traitor disappear? Remember you are more powerful than the government. Sooner you might become less powerful if the traitor keeps talking.

Ishaq Ibrahim

Killing of apostate

Ofcourse you want to spread your message after you've learned that everything you were told is one big fat lie. This is why we have; internet (access/knowledge/service).

Most 3pic

Xmuslim:
You can't be a believer in any abrahamic religion unless you submit your rational mind.

I agree. Believing by its nature means not knowing with one's own mind. In Christianity, its called emulating demons.

Xmuslim:
Immediately you begin to use your brain adequately, you begin to deviate from your religion.

I disagree. It would be more accurate to say one deviates from religion as understood by the majority. An example is Jesus Christ. In his time, he deviated so far from accepted religion that they strung him up on a cross and called him God in remorse.

What I've found is immediately you begin to use your brain, you stop believing and begin to seek understanding or you abandon the effort completely.

Xmuslim:

As an ex muslim, I choose to talk about Islam because I wasted my whole life on this MAN-MADE nonsense.

I want muslims to RESEARCH Islam for themselves honestly and rationally. Only THEN come to a conclusion if Islam is from God or is it man-made.

Mick Bustin

All religions are human understandings, but that doesn't make them all bad.

Take your religion here, though I'm certain you'd disagree its a religion, so lets call it an ideology. The fact that you are human does not in any way make it less worthy of consideration.

Intelligent people will judge it on its merit alone and not on you being human.

Xmuslim:

If you are the most powerful mafia BOSS in the world that is more powerful than the government. If a member of your gang quits and start exposing your mafia gang. What will you do?
A. Sit down and watch the traitor bring down your powerful mafia?
B. Make the traitor disappear? Remember you are more powerful than the government. Sooner you might become less powerful if the traitor keeps talking.

Ishaq Ibrahim

B. We learn this in the story of the Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve were lied to that they would die but didn't and the Mafia Boss kicked them out of his slave farm.

budaatum:

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I disagree. It would be more accurate to say one deviates from religion as understood by the majority. An example is Jesus Christ. In his time, he deviated so far from accepted religion that they strung him up on a cross and called him God in remorse.

What I've found is immediately you begin to use your brain, you stop believing and begin to seek understanding or you abandon the effort completely.

you may be right too.

Although what I meant is similar. Once you stopped believing and start criticising/questioning even your own religion scripture without biase, you start deviating. Either you cherry pick or abandon the religion completely

Xmuslim:
It's important to enlighten Muslims about their silly scriptures and the harm it is causing the world. If they can do Dawah so can we !

Starlord

I might take a break after this one.

You should be grateful you live in a post-Dawad world and not in the pre-Dawah world.

In the pre-dawah world, you would have no texts to read to dawah your mind and would have had to believe the little you know, but in the post-dawah world see yourself with something to dawah on.

Dawah means, teaching a proper understanding of Islam. Many have a misunderstanding.

budaatum:

All religions are human understandings, but that doesn't make them all bad.

Take your religion here, though I'm certain you'd disagree its a religion, so lets call it an ideology. The fact that you are human does not in any way make it less worthy of consideration.

Intelligent people will judge it on its merit alone and not on you being human.

Of course not all religions are bad. For example I love Sikhism because of the peace they preach. However, it does not mean the religion is authentic.

Most Muslims are good people too, but their scripture preach a mixture of peace and violence.

Xmuslim:
you may be right too.

Although what I meant is similar. Once you stopped believing and start criticising/questioning even your own religion scripture without biase, you start deviating. Either you cherry pick or abandon the religion completely

Cherry pick is what I am constantly accused of.
I call it understanding, which is very different to merely believing. It did not make me abandon religion but embrace it by turning me from the atheist I was into the understander I now am.

By the way, religion is one of the things that tends to limit most to only two option like good or bad, God or satan, and "cherry pick or abandon" as you have here. A deeper understanding of things tends to show that there are usually more than two options.

Xmuslim:


Of course not all religions are bad. For example I love Sikhism because of the peace they preach. However, it does not mean the religion is authentic.

Most Muslims are good people too, but their scripture preach a mixture of peace and violence.

You might love Sikhism because you know much less about it than you know about Islam, because Sikhism too has been subject to the exact same criticism you have against Islam.

Thing is Scripture does not preach, as you allege. All scripture is words in a book, and to be honest, no one exactly literally obeys what they read in it or no scripture reader would steal or lie or covet their neighbours wife or goods, yet, here you are talking as if if it is written in scripture that "go and kill", it literally means, go and kill.

Surely, only believers think that way, so might I be right in calling you a believer instead of an understander?

Xmuslim:
You can't be a believer in any abrahamic religion unless you submit your rational mind.

Immidiately you begin to use your brain adequately, you begin to deviate from your religion.

Xmuslim

This I would disagree with.
People are contradictory creatures.

There are super rational religious people and these people can continue living with this contradiction, unconscious of it as long as no one points it out for them.

Xmuslim:
It is the religious people who always live in a cage, bound tightly to dogmatic faith.

Pranith aditya

This as well.
I'd say it's something characteristic to any ideology, religious or areligious.
Something like the communist ideology seemed to had a similar thing going on.

IMAliyu:

This as well.
I'd say it's something characteristic to any ideology, religious or areligious.
Something like the communist ideology seemed to had a similar thing going on.

Basically, he is wrongly blaming religion for ignorance that predates it.

I hope he sees.

I found out too much about Islam forcing me to leave it, while you are an ignorant follower. Example below

Self Serving Verses of Muhammad in the Quran

1. Al-Ahzab 53:O you who have believed, do not enter the houses of the Prophet except when you are permitted for a meal, without awaiting its readiness. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have eaten, disperse without seeking to remain for conversation. Indeed, that [behavior] was troubling the Prophet, and he is shy of [dismissing] you. But Allah is not shy of the truth...

2. Baqarah 144: We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased...

3. Ahzab 50: O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses from what Allah has returned to you [of captives]....and a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet [and] if the Prophet wishes to marry her, [this is] only for you, excluding the [other] believers. We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess, [but this is for you] in order that there will be upon you no discomfort. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

4. Ahzab 37: ....So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah accomplished.

By: pot head

Continuation..

5. Ahzab 51: You, [O Muhammad], may put aside whom you will of them or take to yourself whom you will. And any that you desire of those [wives] from whom you had [temporarily] separated - there is no blame upon you [in returning her]. That is more suitable that they should be content and not grieve and that they should be satisfied with what you have given them - all of them. And Allah knows what is in your hearts. And ever is Allah Knowing and Forbearing.

6. Hujurat 2: O you who have believed, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet or be loud to him in speech like the loudness of some of you to others, lest your deeds become worthless while you perceive not.

Last part

7. Thahrim 5: Perhaps his Lord, if he divorced you [all], would substitute for him wives better than you - submitting [to Allah ], believing, devoutly obedient, repentant, worshipping, and traveling - [ones] previously married and virgins.

8. Nisa 65: But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muhammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission.

9. Thahrim 1: O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. 2. Allah has already ordained for you [Muslims] the dissolution of your oaths. And Allah is your protector, and He is the knowing, the wise.

IMAliyu:

This I would disagree with.
People are contradictory creatures.

There are super rational religious people and these people can continue living with this contradiction, unconscious of it as long as no one points it out for them.

yes. Those rational among them are not rational when it comes to their religion.

They keep their rational mind in order to continue to believe in their religion

budaatum:

You might love Sikhism because you know much less about it than you know about Islam, because Sikhism too has been subject to the exact same criticism you have against Islam.

Thing is Scripture does not preach, as you allege. All scripture is words in a book, and to be honest, no one exactly literally obeys what they read in it or no scripture reader would steal or lie or covet their neighbours wife or goods, yet, here you are talking as if if it is written in scripture that "go and kill", it literally means, go and kill.

Surely, only believers think that way, so might I be right in calling you a believer instead of an understander?

Here we go again.

IMAliyu:

This as well.
I'd say it's something characteristic to any ideology, religious or areligious.
Something like the communist ideology seemed to had a similar thing going on.

True.

The communists ideology(especially the past) can be categorize under Religion. They have the quality of religion, a cult.

budaatum:

Basically, he is wrongly blaming religion for ignorance that predates it.

I hope he sees.

No, he's not wrong blaming Religion. We can't deny Religion isn't part of the disasters in the world history.

tintingz:
No, he's not wrong blaming Religion. We can't deny Religion isn't part of the disasters in the world history.

Care telling me the disasters in the world that you blame on religion?

budaatum:

Care telling me the disasters in the world that you blame on religion?

1. Slavery
2. Apostates execution
3. Witch killing
4. Invades and conquest
5. Subdued Women
6. Terrorism
7. LGBT killings
Etc

tintingz:


1. Slavery
2. Apostates execution
3. Witch killing
4. Invades and conquest
5. Subdued Women
6. Terrorism
7. LGBT killings
Etc

Could you point to any of these that did not happen before people took on religion? For instance, was there pre-religion slavery or not, was there pre-apostate killing or not and so on.

As an aside. There really was never a time when people did not have a religion. Reference is here.

budaatum:

Could you point to any of these that did not happen before people took on religion? For instance, was there pre-religion slavery or not, was there pre-apostate killing or not and so on.

As an aside. There really was never a time when people did not have a religion. Reference is here.

1. If there was no religion before people took it up, religion still did the above listed and not discouraged it.

2. If there has always been a religion(i dont think it is the case as there would be a TIME religion started), this still support what i said.

Religion(no all) did bad things in the past and we are still seeing some effect till date.

Some people were made to believe that Muhammad came with the supposed Islamic months. NO. He met Arabs on it. Just like we Yorubas have our own traditional months. If Muhammad was a Yoruba, Muslims would be counting months and days in the Yoruba ways.

Nothing is special about Arab's month. Snap out of it.

By the way, hajj and eid that follows it predate Islam. Muhammad only adopted it from the pegans. Ibrahim never travelled to makkah. Ask any Jew about the story of Abraham.

Note: I don't support any abrahamic religion, but the story of Abraham from the Jews is more reliable than the one Muhammad formulated

Xmuslim