@ ndu chucks

Can you provide a quote from the section of the constitution of Nigeria which states that the selling or possession of alcoholic beverages by non-Muslims is prohibited in a state where Sharia law is applicable?

PhysicsQED: @ ndu chucks

Can you provide a quote from the section of the constitution of Nigeria which states that the selling or possession of alcoholic beverages by non-Muslims is prohibited in a state where Sharia law is applicable?

BTW, you will not find any constitution in the world which would state that the selling of alcoholic beverages is prohibited or allowed under any circumstance. Neither will not find it in the Nigerian constitution.

What you'll find in Chapter IV of our constitution, is a list of Fundamental rights of Nigerians which cannot be violated by the federal government, state government, or any other entity. Look it up. The list includes:

(1)Right to freedom of movement.
(2)Right to freedom from discrimination.
(3)Right to life.

There are 11 more fundamental rights which I have not listed. Ogun state's action violates the rights of the herdsmen to freedom of movement - its that simple.

Which of the fundamental rights listed in Chapter IV was violated by the Kano law? If you can find any, take Kano state to court and the law you are concerned about will be overturned. You should find it interesting that no one has filed a single lawsuit challenging the Kano law.

Ogun state will be challenged in court and elsewhere upon its first attempt to enforce this sad law/rule.

ndu_chucks:

BTW, you will not find any constitution in the world which would be state that the selling of alcoholic beverages is prohibited or allowed under any circumstance. Neither will not find it in the Nigerian constitution.

What you'll find in Chapter IV of our constitution, is a list of Fundamental rights of Nigerians which cannot be violated by the federal government, state government, or any other entity. Look it up. The list includes:

(1)Right to freedom of movement.
(2)Right to freedom from discrimination.
(3)Right to life.

There are 11 more fundamental rights which I have not listed. Ogun state's action violates the rights of the herdsmen to freedom of movement - its that simple.

Which of the fundamental rights listed in Chapter IV was violated by the Kano law? If you can find any, take Kano state to court and the law you are concerned about will be overturned. You should find it interesting that no one has filed a single lawsuit challenging the Kano law.

Ogun state will be challenged in court and elsewhere upon its first attempt to enforce this sad law/rule.

Ogun state is within their rights to restrict their movement. The namds are free to move, just not with their cows openly - dirtying the environment, spreading diseases and destroying crops. Ogun State and any other state is allowed to stop practices that might endanger the health of the populace or bring conflicts.

ndu_chucks:

BTW, you will not find any constitution in the world which would state that the selling of alcoholic beverages is prohibited or allowed under any circumstance. Neither will not find it in the Nigerian constitution.

Actually, in the U.S.A. there was something called the eighteenth amendment to the U.S. constitution, i.e. Prohibition. Look it up. The law of the land did have to be changed to make selling alcohol illegal. Then there was the 21st amendment to the constitution which served as a correction to the previous ban on alcohol in terms of how any kind of bans on alcohol could be carried out.

What you'll find in Chapter IV of our constitution, is a list of Fundamental rights of Nigerians which cannot be violated by the federal government, state government, or any other entity. Look it up. The list includes:

(1)Right to freedom of movement.
(2)Right to freedom from discrimination.
(3)Right to life.

There are 11 more fundamental rights which I have not listed. Ogun state's action violates the rights of the herdsmen to freedom of movement - its that simple.

Which of the fundamental rights listed in Chapter IV was violated by the Kano law? If you can find any, take Kano state to court and the law you are concerned about will be overturned. You should find it interesting that no one has filed a single lawsuit challenging the Kano law.

Ogun state will be challenged in court and elsewhere upon its first attempt to enforce this sad law/rule.

And what's your interpretation of the following:

""44. (1) No moveable property or any interest in an immovable property shall be taken possession of compulsorily and no right over or interest in any such property shall be acquired compulsorily in any part of Nigeria except in the manner and for the purposes prescribed by a law that, among other things -

(a) requires the prompt payment of compensation therefore and

(b) gives to any person claiming such compensation a right of access for the determination of his interest in the property and the amount of compensation to a court of law or tribunal or body having jurisdiction in that part of Nigeria."


Are you telling me that the Sharia laws in Kano require anyone possessing and/or selling alcohol to be compensated in accordance with the amount they think is appropriate and that this has been carried out and is still carried out in Kano?

PhysicsQED:
Actually, in the U.S.A. there was something called the eighteenth amendment to the U.S. constitution, i.e. Prohibition. Look it up. The law of the land did have to be changed to make selling alcohol illegal. Then there was the 21st amendment to the constitution which served as a correction to the previous ban on alcohol.

I should have known that you would dig up the only such reference one can find on the issue. My point remains valid.

PhysicsQED:
And what's your interpretation of the following:

""44. (1) No moveable property or any interest in an immovable property shall be taken possession of compulsorily and no right over or interest in any such property shall be acquired compulsorily in any part of Nigeria except in the manner and for the purposes prescribed by a law that, among other things -

(a) requires the prompt payment of compensation therefore and

(b) gives to any person claiming such compensation a right of access for the determination of his interest in the property and the amount of compensation to a court of law or tribunal or body having jurisdiction in that part of Nigeria."


Are you telling me that the Sharia laws in Kano require anyone possessing and/or selling alcohol to be compensated in accordance with the amount they think is appropriate and that this has been carried out and is still carried out in Kano?

No, that's not what I am saying at all. I repeat : If you can find any constitutional provision violated by the Kano law, take Kano state to court and the law you are concerned about will be overturned.

If Ogun state attempts to enforce this crazy law, the state will be challenged in court and elsewhere. Shi kena

Ndu chucks, I know about the fines (rather than compensation) that come with possession of alcohol in Kano and my point is that it is definitely in violation of the constitution of Nigeria. If that law can be put in place in clear and obvious violation of the constitution's protection of property rights because of the Islamic culture of the state of Kano, then I don't see how the migration of herdsmen cannot also be fully or partially blocked in a southern state just because it apparently violates freedom of movement. The lifestyle of the nomadic herdsmen is a threat to the lifestyle and property of farmers and other sedentary people in the south and the lifestyle and property of these people should be respected. If you have the funds, time and expertise, take the Ogun state government to court and see what happens. I'd be interested in knowing the outcome.

PhysicsQED: Ndu chucks, I know about the fines (rather than compensation) that come with possession of alcohol in Kano and my point is that it is definitely in violation of the constitution of Nigeria. If that law can be put in place in clear and obvious violation of the constitution's protection of property rights because of the Islamic culture of the state of Kano, then I don't see how the migration of herdsmen cannot also be fully or partially blocked in a southern state just because it apparently violates freedom of movement. The lifestyle of the nomadic herdsmen is a threat to the lifestyle and property of farmers and other sedentary people in the south and the lifestyle and property of these people should be respected. If you have the funds, time and expertise, take the Ogun state government to court and see what happens. I'd be interested in knowing the outcome.

Frankly, if folks believe that the Kano law is unconstitutional, then they should take the state to court. I do not agree with the notion that "because one state has a law which violates the constitution" then another state, such as Ogun can perpetrate its own criminal violation of the constitution. For now, the Kano state law has not been tested in court or overturned by any court, so it remains the law of the land in Kano. Frankly, I don't believe Ogun state officials will or can enforce this new law/rule of theirs.

ndu_chucks: Frankly, if folks believe that the Kano law is unconstitutional, then they should take the state to court. I do not agree with the notion that "because one state has a law which violates the constitution" then another state, such as Ogun can perpetrate its own criminal violation of the constitution. For now, the Kano state law has not been tested in court or overturned by any court, so it remains the law of the land in Kano. Frankly, I don't believe Ogun state officials will or can enforce this new law/rule of theirs.

Are you reading the same thing I'm reading? Or are you starting to see things that aren't there just because the topic pertains to Fulani herdsmen?

Olubori added that issues concerning grazing land, cattle routes, registration and the signing of agreement by the nomads would be resolved at another meeting.

He, however, directed the chairmen of Imeko-Afon, Yewa North and Abeokuta North local governments to convene a meeting of traditional rulers, youths, Fulani herdsmen, farmers and community leaders in their areas to inform them about the government’s efforts aimed at forestalling a recurrence of the crises.

The commissioner said, “Fulani herdsmen who are bringing their cattle into the state for grazing should suspend their coming until proper arrangements have been made to ensure that the crises that usually occur between them and farmers do not happen again.

“Government is working to ensure that farmers and herdsmen can cohabit peacefully without a breakdown of law and order and we will not tolerate a recurrence of what was witnessed last year.”

Where in there do you see some attempt to infringe upon the rights of freedom of movement of the Fulani herdsmen? Their current behavior is troublesome and the state is working to fix it by setting some standards and requirements for them to adhere to. Letting them continue that current behavior unchecked even knowing that it would lead to violent clashes would not make sense.

Kano state is in clear violation of the constitution, whereas Ogun state has not passed any law permanently prohibiting the freedom of movement of the herdsmen but is instead trying to suspend their activities so deaths can be avoided while they come up with a way that the herdsmen can avoid causing problems for the farmers.

Although it doesn't look like the Ogun state government actually plans to ban Fulani herdsmen from their state permanently, I personally feel that nomadic herdsmen in general should be banned from places where they are not wanted and their activities can lead to disputes and clashes.

PhysicsQED:

Although it doesn't look like the Ogun state government actually plans to ban Fulani herdsmen from their state permanently, I personally feel that nomadic herdsmen in general should be banned from places where they are not wanted and where their activities can lead to disputes and clashes.

Even if the ban was temporary, it is still a ban which restricts the free movement of the herdsmen in violation of the constitution. Not all these herdsmen are trouble makers or commit crimes in Ogun state.

Why can't Ogun officials enforce existing laws against trespassing and arrest anyone who breaks the laws? Why can't they educate their farmers on how to use barbed wires to protect their farms?

This is like saying, because a couple of Agberos stabbed passengers and others, as usually happens every so often at motor parks, then we will ban travelling by road which requires going to motor parks, until we find a way to reduce the criminal acts by a handful of agberos. SMH

ndu_chucks: Even if the ban was temporary, it is still a ban which restricts the free movement of the herdsmen in violation of the constitution. Not all these herdsmen are trouble makers or commit crimes in Ogun state.

So when a ban is made until requirements of the herdsmen and standards can be put in place to avoid clashes and deaths, your biggest concern is the temporary suspension of freedom of movement, not the deaths that will be prevented by the government taking the time out to address the problem? There is something very wrong with your way of thinking. Like I said, sue the Ogun state government. Take them to court and see if the courts will rule against them for trying to prevent violence and deaths. I want to see the outcome.

Why can't Ogun officials enforce existing laws against trespassing and arrest anyone who breaks the laws?

I don't know whether they don't actually enforce such laws to some degree at the present, but this is a good suggestion. By enforcing such laws, many nomadic herdsmen can just be arrested outright the minute they step on anyone else's land, long before any crops are damaged. The only issue is whether the police will respond quickly enough before the trespasser grazes and moves on in search of the next piece of land to trespass on.

Why can't they educate their farmers on how to use barbed wires to protect their farms?

Farmers that want to use barbed wire will pay for barbed wire, and those that don't like it will do without it. They don't have to be forced to get barbed wire if they don't want it.

PhysicsQED:

So when a ban is made until requirements for the herdsmen can be put in place to avoid clashes and deaths, your biggest concern is the temporary suspension of freedom of movement, not the deaths that will be prevented by the government taking the time out to address the problem? There is something very wrong with your way of thinking. Like I said, sue the Ogun state government. Take them to court and see if the courts will rule against them for trying to prevent violence and deaths. I want to see the outcome.

Since your main concern is the avoidance of clashes and deaths, let me state here that there has been less than 14 such clashes and hardly any death in Ogun state in 2012. It seems to me as if Ogun state should focus on repairing their roads and enforcing traffic laws of the state since those roads and lawless drivers have been responsible for the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of Ogun residents this year alone. This new law/ban by Ogun state is an overkill by any estimation. The overkill may not be unconnected with unfounded phobia and outright racism/tribalism.

I don't know whether they don't actually enforce such laws to some degree at the present, but this is a good suggestion. By enforcing such laws, many nomadic herdsmen can just be arrested outright the minute they step on anyone else's land, long before any crops are damaged. The only issue is whether the police will respond quickly enough before the trespasser grazes and moves on in search of the next piece of land to trespass on.

I agree with this but the herdsmen should not be singled out and punished because of the inadequacies of the police.

Farmers that want to use barbed wire will pay for barbed wire, and those that don't like it will do without it. They don't have to be forced to get barbed wire if they don't want it.

I also agree that farmers should not be forced to fence their properties, common sense should guide them towards protecting their products as civilized people do.

Nice. At least they have guts unlike the SE state governments.Oops!

Ndu_chucks,

The bottom line is these cows are market goods. Herd them, ship them, truck them, rail them.....whichever way you choose they will get to the market. There are open alternatives for fulani to get his goods to market.

The farmer also has to get his produce to market. He will not have any produce for market after fulani has herded his cows through the farm.

Ogun state must protect productivity and protect ways of life for the farmers. Ogun state also have laws that guide shipment and haulage of goods and must enforce them.

The burden of proof is on the Federal Govt to come out and say by protecting farmers and productivity Ogun state has violated rights of fulani herders by blocking cattle from grazing on farms.

Tell GEJ or Arewa Consultative Forum or miyetti Allah to get their lawyers to take action against Ogun state.

Dudu_Negro: Ndu_chucks,

The bottom line is these cows are market goods. Herd them, ship them, truck them, rail them.....whichever way you choose they will get to the market. There are open alternatives for fulani to get his goods to market.

The farmer also has to get his produce to market. He will not have any produce for market after fulani has herded his cows through the farm.

Ogun state must protect productivity and protect ways of life for the farmers. Ogun state also have laws that guide shipment and haulage of goods and must enforce them.

The burden of proof is on the Federal Govt to come out and say by protecting farmers and productivity Ogun state has violated rights of fulani herders by blocking cattle from grazing on farms.

Tell GEJ or Arewa Consultative Forum or miyetti Allah to get their lawyers to take action against Ogun state.

You, of all people, should know that there is a clear distinction between settled Fulanis and the nomads. The settled Fulanis and other cattle traders, ship their cattle, truck them, rail them.....whichever way they choose to get them to the market. These traders are not the victims of the discrimination in question.

No court will classify nomadic herdsmen as big time traders with the option of transporting their goods to the market through conventional means. You people will pay dearly if you illegally mess with the herdsmen.

Dede1: I guess state governments in Nigeria are as useless as the federal government. Fulani herdsmen should raise and graze their cattle in their respective states of origin and move their products through road or rail transportation to markets in the southern states of Nigeria. Any herds of cattle found roaming freely in state with such laws forbidding such activity should be confiscated. In Kano, Kaduna, Zamafra and other states in northern Nigeria where Sharia Law takes center stage, beer and alcoholic beverages have been confiscated and destroyed by the state government agencies.

@ dede1 u ar really DEDE1, dede is a yoruba slag dat means foool, do u tink d fulani herdsmen ar as poor as u ar dat dey cant afford 2 transport der cows wit truck? Do u pass through secondary or primary school @all? Pls go and read ur agricultural text book again, it will help u kw more abt cattle grazing. U ar more useless dan d government.

ndu_chucks:

You, of all people, should know that there is a clear distinction between settled Fulanis and the nomads. The settled Fulanis and other cattle traders, ship their cattle, truck them, rail them.....whichever way they choose to get them to the market. These traders are not the victims of the discrimination in question.

No court will classify nomadic herdsmen as big time traders with the option of transporting their goods to the market through conventional means. You people will pay dearly if you illegally mess with the herdsmen.

Lol! That distinction that exists between the settled and nomadic fulani is an interesting point to use in support of why the cjange is necessary to protect markets.....both the cattle market and the farm produce.

100 heads of cow stampeding through farmsteads is a disaster to farmlands and a hindrance to way of life of the farmers. The settled fulanis that truck cattle on roads are successful models for the path forward to rehabilitate nomads.......theirs is a success story . By trucking their cattle instead of herding them throuhh farmlands and village settlements they have taken a path that removes them from confrontation with farmers and locals and thereby improving relationships and harmony in Ogun state and elseqhere in which cow herding disrupts and destroy livelihoods.

The settled and the nomad fulanis are both under the same organization, miyetti Allah. Miyetti need to approach Gej for rehabilitation assistance to nomads. Ogun state is not responsible for their rehabilitation.

We'll never develop as a nation until we do the right things. Once state governments invest in mechanized agriculture and animal husbandry, nomadic cattle rearing will no longer be lucrative. Lives will no longer be lost from clashes between cattle rearers and farmers.

ndu_chucks: You intellectuals and elitists should be ashamed of yourselves for promoting the violation of human rights of fellow Nigerians instead of spending energy to prevent same.

This action by Ogun state cannot be enforced and will be resisted by force. The state official who made this announcement is irresponsible and just playing for cheap publicity - I await his enforcement of this rule.

I'll probably work to organize herdsmen to dare authorities to enforce this rule. Nonesense!!!

MUMU like u. Which violation of human right. U no WELL.

ndu-chucks,

You want Ogun farmers to be busy chasing around cows, in addition to tending to their subsistent farms, while the owners smile to banks sitting pretty comfortably hundreds of kms away?

ko?

sokera:

@ dede1 u ar really DEDE1, dede is a yoruba slag dat means foool, do u tink d fulani herdsmen ar as poor as u ar dat dey cant afford 2 transport der cows wit truck? Do u pass through secondary or primary school @all? Pls go and read ur agricultural text book again, it will help u kw more abt cattle grazing. U ar more useless dan d government.

The postulation in the above post is the reason I said Nigeria is running out of space for fools. Actually, Fulani herdsmen are not searching for grazing land in southern Nigeria. The problem ensues when certain Fulani herdsmen decide to drive their cattle, on foot through farmlands, en-route to markets in southern Nigeria. If you are not a basement fool as you have demonstrated on the aforementioned post, a numbskull who knew nothing about rearing cattle, you could have readily noticed the deadly risk associated with grazing cattle in tropical climate, olodo.

Dede1:


The postulation in the above post is the reason I said Nigeria is running out of space for fools. Actually, Fulani herdsmen are not searching for grazing land in southern Nigeria. The problem ensues when certain Fulani herdsmen decide to drive their cattle, on foot through farmlands, en-route to markets in southern Nigeria. If you are not a basement fool as you have demonstrated on the aforementioned post, a numbskull who knew nothing about rearing cattle, you could have readily noticed the deadly risk associated with grazing cattle in tropical climate, olodo.

@dede1 I can see u are really dede @ number 1 level of foolishness, like I told u go back and read ur secondary school agricultural text book , don't u kw only Nigeria hausa rear cattles on regular location but fulani herdsmen move their cattles from one location to another location seeking greener pasture,dat is d essence of grazing... Dede1 d fooll

sashbaby: MUMU like u. Which violation of human right. U no WELL.

hey sashbabe, let me viiolate your own personal human rights na. I promise it will be harmless.

ndu_chucks: You intellectuals and elitists should be ashamed of yourselves for promoting the violation of human rights of fellow Nigerians instead of spending energy to prevent same.

This action by Ogun state cannot be enforced and will be resisted by force. The state official who made this announcement is irresponsible and just playing for cheap publicity - I await his enforcement of this rule.

I'll probably work to organize herdsmen to dare authorities to enforce this rule. Nonesense!!!

what are you talking about mr...is the law made for the people or the people for the law?...if an existing law is bn abused to commit atrocities as is the case with the fulani herdsmen all over the country, what law says it's bad to enact other law to strengthen the weak one?