@Tiarabubu:

by tiarabubu: 10:08am
^^^^^

Egbon, you are leaving the main issue and skirting around innuendos!

Apart from the structural breakdown of the word "Allah" in its constituent part as done in (i) of my post, where else was "Allah" spelt with a small "a".

Focus on the main issue, please.

How is Alif Laam which makes "The" {Al] in english the lower case when it will be part of what Forms Allah with Alif Laam Laam Haa of God {Illah], but when the christians are going to write the same word for their God, the Al suddenly is Capital Alif with the Laaam and Illah suddenly acquires Capital letter for the Alif that begins Illah?

If I write queen elizabeth some english have the right to correct me that it should be written as Queen Elizabeth. Those who are not muslims dubiously analyzing God Who is worshiped by the Muslims as lower god/idol [fake God] need to ask the muslims if when the stand to make the daily salah, do the have a god in their Imagination of Who they are about to worship? The answer will be no. Who I am ready to worship is not human, angel, jinn or anything created but the Creator Who is beyond imagination and human mind can not conceptualize Him.


There is no baby Allah as you may have baby Jesus son of Mary in a diaper. Allah is not spirit like the Holy Ghost who no one can give us his name. And all is not a tiring God that He will need to refresh Himself.

I simply will like any to explain their "God" to me instead of me giving them my opinion of their God. I may ask about clarification of whatever is unclear, like in the Trinity which is 3 distinct PERSONS but still 1 or why not accept that God created Jesus in a special way as He has been able to create Adam [as] and Even in 2 distinct special ways before and these were proofs that the special way does not make any of these men and woman God of his/her own. And in view of this, if you do not accept that Jesus was created, you will have to accept that Mary may have to be a consort because God will provide us information that will confuse and we can explain it.

After all we are humans and God is addressing as humans, so their is no reason to give us something our mind can accept. I know its "off topic", but it does provide some sense about how man can recognize The Unique Position and Quality of God that no other entity can have or share.

tpia@:



alright then.

i dont know if you're muslim or christian btw, since i havent checked your previous posts.

i do know you comment in muslim section.

i cant remember doing that!

Sweetnecta: @Tiarabubu: How is Alif Laam which makes "The" {Al] in english the lower case when it will be part of what Forms Allah with Alif Laam Laam Haa of God {Illah], but when the christians are going to write the same word for their God, the Al suddenly is Capital Alif with the Laaam and Illah suddenly acquires Capital letter for the Alif that begins Illah?

If I write queen elizabeth some english have the right to correct me that it should be written as Queen Elizabeth. Those who are not muslims dubiously analyzing God Who is worshiped by the Muslims as lower god/idol [fake God] need to ask the muslims if when the stand to make the daily salah, do the have a god in their Imagination of Who they are about to worship? The answer will be no. Who I am ready to worship is not human, angel, jinn or anything created but the Creator Who is beyond imagination and human mind can not conceptualize Him.


There is no baby Allah as you may have baby Jesus son of Mary in a diaper. Allah is not spirit like the Holy Ghost who no one can give us his name. And all is not a tiring God that He will need to refresh Himself.

I simply will like any to explain their "God" to me instead of me giving them my opinion of their God. I may ask about clarification of whatever is unclear, like in the Trinity which is 3 distinct PERSONS but still 1 or why not accept that God created Jesus in a special way as He has been able to create Adam [as] and Even in 2 distinct special ways before and these were proofs that the special way does not make any of these men and woman God of his/her own. And in view of this, if you do not accept that Jesus was created, you will have to accept that Mary may have to be a consort because God will provide us information that will confuse and we can explain it.

After all we are humans and God is addressing as humans, so their is no reason to give us something our mind can accept. I know its "off topic", but it does provide some sense about how man can recognize The Unique Position and Quality of God that no other entity can have or share.

tiarabubu:


^^^^

Have you considered that if the topic in view is linguistic based then of course they may be wrong. However, if the issue at hand is not, then maybe their point is that the God they know is not the same as Allah as understood by Muslims. For the Arabs, Allah (understood as God) is a neutral term only enhanced by its use within the context of faith. Eg when a Muslim says Allah (SWT) he means the Supreme God as defined by the Koran. If a non Muslim says Allah al Ab or Allah Uba he means Supreme God as defined by his faith.

While not holding brief for anybody, what I understand some to mean is that the concept of God in their belief is not the same as the concept of God (Allah) in Islam. Look at it this way; if the word Allah was used in pre-Islamic pagan Arabia, was their concept of "Allah" the same as that expressed in the Koran? No, I don't think so. They may have meant supreme deity; but of what kind? I don't think it tallies with the attributes of Allah as defined in the Koran.


If they (Christians) say Allah doesn't mean God, then they may be linguistically incorrect. But what naturally follows is, what are the attributes of this Supreme Being they want to refer to?

Many would argue that the attributes Christians and Muslims claim for God are different hence we cannot be referring to the same thing. Another school of thought will say that we all refer to the same God but go to him through different routes. It will be an endless debate which will be highlighted and fueled by the so many things we see around us today.

Christians are different from Atheist for only one reason, they believe in the Supreme Being. Where we religious people differ is on what the attributes of these Supreme Being are and what he expects of us as his creatures? Having said that, it is stupidity for you to say Allah is not the same as God in English within the context of my points in this post.

It's like we Muslims trying to say because the Qur'an was revealed in Arabic, God is not Allah in the Qur'an. Of course He is- the only question we should entertain from anyone on the subject is: What are the attributes of God according to Islam? And what does he want from us?

Many Nigerian Christians are hopelessly ignorant of their religion- let's be honest. I have never seen a Nigerian Christian bearing the name Jesus- why? The answer is simple, they think that would be the equivalent of naming their child "God". However, go to the Latin World, you will find so many "Jesuses" that you would laugh at our own Christians here.

It is the same warped reasoning that prevents them from accepting that Allah is God in Arabic.

maclatunji: Hello my dear friends. Would you be kind enough to answer me question?

I have repented otherwise i would have abused you to a great lenght since you have no power to ban me here.

Mcdondayan:
I have repented otherwise i would have abused you to a great lenght since you have no power to ban me here.

There is no need for that. You know Islam is very intolerant of criticism or indept study that asks fundamental questions. Insulting him will not do any good. It will only muddle issues. Besides that ain't the way to go no matter what. cool tempa ejor

tiarabubu:

There is no need for that. You know Islam is very intolerant of criticism or indept study that asks fundamental questions. Insulting him will not do any good. It will only muddle issues. Besides that ain't the way to go no matter what. cool tempa ejor

Thanks. I appretiate

maclatunji:

Christians are different from Atheist for only one reason, they believe in the Supreme Being. Where we religious people differ is on what the attributes of these Supreme Being are and what he expects of us as his creatures? Having said that, it is stupidity for you to say Allah is not the same as God in English within the context of my points in this post.

Unfortunately, you didnt understand me. What I said is hardly stupidity if you spent a couple of minutes to read it. May be this time slowly. Of course Allah is God to you within your Islamic belief. But is Allah referring to the God Christians believe in? this is what I wrote;

what I understand some to mean is that the concept of God in their belief is not the same as the concept of God (Allah) in Islam.

We are talking about contextual issues here. To put it bluntly; for some what is God to you, aint God to them.

It's like we Muslims trying to say because the Qur'an was revealed in Arabic, God is not Allah in the Qur'an. Of course He is- the only question we should entertain from anyone on the subject is: What are the attributes of God according to Islam? And what does he want from us?

Again read my posts. Allah is God to you based on your Islamic beliefs. But is Allah the SAME GOD to the Arab Non-Muslims? While the generic term Allah means the supreme being, each religion treats the term differently. For most people, you are not talking of the same God with them even if you meant the supreme deity.

Many Nigerian Christians are hopelessly ignorant of their religion- let's be honest. I have never seen a Nigerian Christian bearing the name Jesus- why? The answer is simple, they think that would be the equivalent of naming their child "God". However, go to the Latin World, you will find so many "Jesuses" that you would laugh at our own Christians here.

what has bearing the name Jesu' and Isa got to with the term Allah and God? And what has that got to do with ignorance? Did I miss something?

It is the same warped reasoning that prevents them from accepting that Allah is God in Arabic.

Nobody denies that the term "Allah" refers to God (Or the Supreme Deity) in pre Islamic Arabia, then in Islam (as defined in the Koran). Allah IS the term for God. However, God as refered to in Christianity (as a Father) is not God referred to in Islam (as a task Master).

Some feel strongly that Allah is not what they consider God. For example, in Christianity, its not allowed to fight for God. But as we can see in my first post, some Malaysians took it upon themselves to firebomb Churches over the use of the name of GOD! If Allah is God, why are they so bitter to resort to arson when Christians use the same name - Allah? So is Allah the same God as that of the Christians? How can it be the same God when some Muslims are willing to resort to violence over the name? Do you see where those guys are coming from?

It takes a little more effort of reasoning to see where they are coming from. And I think that you can do that.

Mcdondayan:
Thanks. I appretiate

You are welcome sir.

maclatunji:

Christians are different from Atheist for only one reason, they believe in the Supreme Being. Where we religious people differ is on what the attributes of these Supreme Being are and what he expects of us as his creatures? Having said that, it is stupidity for you to say Allah is not the same as God in English within the context of my points in this post.

It's like we Muslims trying to say because the Qur'an was revealed in Arabic, God is not Allah in the Qur'an. Of course He is- the only question we should entertain from anyone on the subject is: What are the attributes of God according to Islam? And what does he want from us?

Many Nigerian Christians are hopelessly ignorant of their religion- let's be honest. I have never seen a Nigerian Christian bearing the name Jesus- why? The answer is simple, they think that would be the equivalent of naming their child "God". However, go to the Latin World, you will find so many "Jesuses" that you would laugh at our own Christians here.

It is the same warped reasoning that prevents them from accepting that Allah is God in Arabic.

If Allah is God in Arabic, why this?

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1952497,00.html

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/asia-pacific/malay-churches-firebombed-in-riots-over-non-muslim-use-of-allah

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8447450.stm

http://asiancorrespondent.com/27290/malaysia-church-firebombed-over-allah-issue/

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/01/08/malaysian-church-firebombed-amid-039allah039-dispute.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/01/08/malaysia.churches.attacked/index.html


Maclatunji, your brothers in Malaysia disagree with you - by force by fire!

i tot God used to be called ilah in arabic before d muslims called theirs Allah.

Mcdondayan:
I have repented otherwise i would have abused you to a great lenght since you have no power to ban me here.

And prove my point in banning you beyond doubt. Let me know when you grow up.

@Tiarabubu:

by tiarabubu: 5:09pm

If Allah is God in Arabic, why this?

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1952497,00.html

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/asia-pacific/malay-churches-firebombed-in-riots-over-non-muslim-use-of-allah

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8447450.stm

http://asiancorrespondent.com/27290/malaysia-church-firebombed-over-allah-issue/

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/01/08/malaysian-church-firebombed-amid-039allah039-dispute.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/01/08/malaysia.churches.attacked/index.html


Maclatunji, your brothers in Malaysia disagree with you - by force by fire! shocked

i believe that malaysians do have a name for God Almighty in their language[s]. Or is arabic their native tongue instead of Malays [their native language]? They could have picked from this many: Yahweh, Jehovah, Adonia, etc, but leave Allah Alone for the Muslims and Ellah for the Jesus son of Mary.

For christians who are not arabs to choose to call their God Allah or hold a debate about it, alone or with or aganst the muslims proves that Allah is to them is the Personal Name of God. I am certain that no muslim will write Yahweh or others that you will not find within Quran and Hadith as Name of THE CREATOR.


Do christians in Nigeria take the same position as the Malaysian christians? Why would a malaysian church choose Allah to represent their God if these christians are not Arabs? Or do the yoruba christians call their Baba to wa lorun Allah, too?

tiarabubu:


If Allah is God in Arabic, why this?

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1952497,00.html

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/asia-pacific/malay-churches-firebombed-in-riots-over-non-muslim-use-of-allah

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8447450.stm

http://asiancorrespondent.com/27290/malaysia-church-firebombed-over-allah-issue/

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/01/08/malaysian-church-firebombed-amid-039allah039-dispute.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/01/08/malaysia.churches.attacked/index.html


Maclatunji, your brothers in Malaysia disagree with you - by force by fire!

It simple, they simply don't understand just like you don't understand. Your last two posts are missing the point. Which is: the Supreme Being exists in both religions, the only difference is in how each religion sees him and his requirements for we his creatures to please him. This is simple enough for anyone to grasp without need for long arguments. I gave you the example of Jesus just to show you how the perception of God is different even within Christianity with those in Nigeria considering Jesus to be absolutely divine and those in other places not nearly so.

Your hanging on to your articles just shows you lack Islamic knowledge. It doesn't matter if a million Muslims do something, the first thing we ask ourselves is: does it have basis in the primary sources of Sharia? If not, we reject it. It's not about numbers at all because the majority could be wrong as proven several times in Islamic history.

Your point is like saying Adolph Hitler is no longer a human being because different people see him differently- some as a great person and others as evil. He is a human being but perception differs.

Allah is God. What you can argue about is your perception of him. Your insecurity is being exposed here with simple language translation. This thread has more than achieved its purpose. Although, your line of argument here is quite laughable.

Let me just add again, Islam predates Prophet Muhammad (SAW). The fact that you refuse to accept this is one of the reasons you argue confusedly.

Bye!

From the saying that Allah (SWT) is an idol in Arabia to Allah (SWT) is a Supreme Deity of the Arabs.
To the point that those who used to refer to Him as an idol now uses His name to mean God.
Finally, you will agree with the Qur'an even with the current level of cultural hypocrisy
fulled by 'centricism'.

Traditionally, Yoruba worship idols however, they recognize the presence of The Supreme Being
called 'Olodumare' or 'Adeda' (The creator).

Jesus spoke Aramaic. This can guide in knowing the true name of The Almighty.
Happy googleing.

These will help.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_of_Jesus

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Elah/elah.html

maclatunji:

Many Nigerian Christians are hopelessly ignorant of their religion- let's be honest. I have never seen a Nigerian Christian bearing the name Jesus- why? The answer is simple, they think that would be the equivalent of naming their child "God". However, go to the Latin World, you will find so many "Jesuses" that you would laugh at our own Christians here.

It is the same warped reasoning that prevents them from accepting that Allah is God in Arabic.

I would just point out that "Joshua" is the same as "Jesus". Jesus himself would have pronounced his name "Yeshua". Thus anyone named Joshua is named Jesus just in a different language. I have enjoyed pointing this out for years.

onetrack:

I would just point out that "Joshua" is the same as "Jesus". Jesus himself would have pronounced his name "Yeshua". Thus anyone named Joshua is named Jesus just in a different language. I have enjoyed pointing this out for years.

Nice attempt but guy 'Joshua' is not 'Jesus' obviously and Muslims bear Yushau (Joshua) and Jesus (Isa). Please, try something else.

maclatunji:

Nice attempt but guy 'Joshua' is not 'Jesus' obviously and Muslims bear Yushau (Joshua) and Jesus (Isa). Please, try something else.

Epic fail


Isa is from Yeshua!


Yeshua and Joshua are from the same roots!

"Jesus" is a transliteration, occurring in a number of languages and based on the Latin Iesus, of the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs), itself a hellenization of the Aramaic/Hebrew ישוע‎ (Yēšûă‘) which is a post-Exilic modification of the Hebrew יְהוֹשֻׁעַ‎ (Yĕhōšuă‘, Joshua) under influence from Aramaic.[34] In the Quran, it is عيسى‎ (‘Īsa).[35][36]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#Etymology_of_name




Maclatunji? you were destroyed by my fellow atheist, One track.

Just like the name "John" in other languages is Johann, Iohannes, Juan, Sean, Ian, Ivan, Yaya, Giovanni, Jean, Joao. Still the same name and same origin. Pronunciation of names can change because of language limitations.

Logicboy: Yes I am an atheist, however I am glad I had a religious brainwashing education earlier in life to help me argue my case for atheism!

onetrack: Just like the name "John" in other languages is Johann, Iohannes, Juan, Sean, Ian, Ivan, Yaya, Giovanni, Jean, Joao. Still the same name and same origin. Pronunciation of names can change because of language limitations.

Logicboy: Yes I am an atheist, however I am glad I had a religious brainwashing education earlier in life to help me argue my case for atheism!

I expected this sort of argument. It's like when we Muslims say Ahmed is the same as Muhammad. We Muslims call our children both and don't discriminate between them. The difference between Joshua and Jesus becomes evident when you guys name your children Joshua and not Jesus. Why reserve Jesus? Busy right Now, will be back.

maclatunji:

It simple, they simply don't understand just like you don't understand. Your last two posts are missing the point. Which is: the Supreme Being exists in both religions, the only difference is in how each religion sees him and his requirements for we his creatures to please him. This is simple enough for anyone to grasp without need for long arguments. I gave you the example of Jesus just to show you how the perception of God is different even within Christianity with those in Nigeria considering Jesus to be absolutely divine and those in other places not nearly so.

Are you blind Maclatunji? go back to my post and read carefully. It looks like you just want to argue for arguing sake. Here is a snippet of what i wrote which has been the central theme since joining this thread.

For the Arabs, Allah (understood as God) is a neutral term only enhanced by its use within the context of faith. Eg when a Muslim says Allah (SWT) he means the Supreme God as defined by the Koran. If a non Muslim says Allah al Ab or Allah Uba he means Supreme God as defined by his faith.


and

Again read my posts. . . .While the generic term Allah means the supreme being, each religion treats the term differently.


I am saying the same thing but at the same time presenting the perception of other people. I am trying to be balanced.

Please spare us your ramblings. You will join the league of Sweetnecta and his incoherent rambling. (Sorry Sweetnecta!)

Your hanging on to your articles just shows you lack Islamic knowledge. It doesn't matter if a million Muslims do something, the first thing we ask ourselves is: does it have basis in the primary sources of Sharia? If not, we reject it. It's not about numbers at all because the majority could be wrong as proven several times in Islamic history. Your point is like saying Adolph Hitler is no longer a human being because different people see him differently- some as a great person and others as evil. He is a human being but perception differs.

It matters oh my friend. How do we know you know better than them? Sheiks and Mullahs have made pronouncements and you want us to discountenance them and listen to YOU? Puhleaseeeeee!!!!!!!!!!

Also,(and turning the tables on you) why should it matter that millions of latin American Christians name themselves jesu' and Nigerians don't? Shouldn't we look at what the primary source - the Bible - says? Your hypocrisy is becoming unbearable.

Allah is God. What you can argue about is your perception of him. Your insecurity is being exposed here with simple language translation. This thread has more than achieved its purpose. Although, your line of argument here is quite laughable.

Confusion! Sweetnecta doesn't agree with you, the Malaysian Government & Ummah don't agree with you, those who bombed the Churches in protest don't agree with you, the Malaysian Mullahs don't agree with you, many lay and learned men don't agree with you. You have an uphill task, my friend.

Let me just add again, Islam predates Prophet Muhammad (SAW). The fact that you refuse to accept this is one of the reasons you argue confusedly.

Islam didn't predate Muhammad. It came with him. How come NO historical document/artifacts/monuments that were found to have existed BEFORE 650 AD have EVER mentioned the term "Islam"? Food for thought.

Another hint; there was no term like "Muslim" before the Prophet. Only the term Hanif to describe monotheism. Monotheist in Arabia at the time were mainly Abrahimic faiths. During the first 60 years after the death of the Prophet and the conquests of Syria,Iran etc, historians recorded the details of the battles that the invaders fought. Guess what? NONE of them recorded the invaders as Muslims! Even though they knew of the rising religion and its Prophet.

If you want, I could get scholars (including Muslim Scholars) who have studied history and have reach startling conclusions to the origins of Islam. But that is not the direction of the thread. I argue on historical facts not what Mullahs say. Counter me on this basis if you can.

Bye!

Bye Ore mi. Happy Sallah in advance. And, hey keep my Ram meat for me oh!

^ Your arguments are so boring that they literally want to send me to sleep. However, let me ask you a question: What is your definition of Islam?

maclatunji:

I expected this sort of argument. It's like when we Muslims say Ahmed is the same as Muhammad. We Muslims call our children both and don't discriminate between them. The difference between Joshua and Jesus becomes evident when you guys name your children Joshua and not Jesus. Why reserve Jesus? Busy right Now, will be back.

Yawn, you were debunked, clean and clear!

Logicboy03:


Yawn, you were debunked, clean and clear!

Then move on.

maclatunji:

Then move on.

You're so direct!

Nice one

maclatunji: ^ Your arguments are so boring that they literally want to send me to sleep. However, let me ask you a question: What is your definition of Islam?

Please, you were so spoiling for a fight that you just had to open a thread. Along comes someone to provide clear insight as to the perception of various people and you can't stand the truth.

Another thing about you muslims is your funny behaviour when people ask for clarification. Tiarabubu pointed out quite clearly that no historical document mentions islam or muslims before 650AD, instead of you to show how you come to know islam predates the prophet, you go on attack. Yet you folks will say we don't understand. How shall we if you can not speak without taking offense on every little thing?

Simple thing: show how islam predated Mohammed.

@tiarabubu
Well done, nicely done job

Lord_Reed:

Please, you were so spoiling for a fight that you just had to open a thread. Along comes someone to provide clear insight as to the perception of various people and you can't stand the truth.

Another thing about you muslims is your funny behaviour when people ask for clarification. Tiarabubu pointed out quite clearly that no historical document mentions islam or muslims before 650AD, instead of you to show how you come to know islam predates the prophet, you go on attack. Yet you folks will say we don't understand. How shall we if you can not speak without taking offense on every little thing?

Simple thing: show how islam predated Mohammed.

@tiarabubu
Well done, nicely done job

I am not surprised.


Maclatunji and his ilk have a hard time defending their religion and thats why they hardly stray into this section.


Maclatrunji, even christians are serving your behind on a platter

Op should perhaps provide a link to the thread which gave rise to this one, so people can view his perspective.

I dont recall any recent discussion about the subject matter.

maclatunji:

I expected this sort of argument. It's like when we Muslims say Ahmed is the same as Muhammad. We Muslims call our children both and don't discriminate between them. The difference between Joshua and Jesus becomes evident when you guys name your children Joshua and not Jesus. Why reserve Jesus? Busy right Now, will be back.

"you guys"? I'm an atheist, I'm certainly not going to defend Christian rationales for whatever customs they have. I was just stating a fact. However, maybe I should name my child Jesus H. Christ and see how he is treated!

Lord_Reed:

Please, you were so spoiling for a fight that you just had to open a thread. Along comes someone to provide clear insight as to the perception of various people and you can't stand the truth.

Another thing about you muslims is your funny behaviour when people ask for clarification. Tiarabubu pointed out quite clearly that no historical document mentions islam or muslims before 650AD, instead of you to show how you come to know islam predates the prophet, you go on attack. Yet you folks will say we don't understand. How shall we if you can not speak without taking offense on every little thing?

Simple thing: show how islam predated Mohammed.

@tiarabubu
Well done, nicely done job

LOL. But...but I and tiarabubu have chemistry, didn't you see where I asked for her definition of Islam? You guys are like rabbits- much too hoppy. If you show patience, you will understand. The fact that I opened this thread doesn't mean I will attend to every issue raised. Haba! What about real life?

onetrack:

"you guys"? I'm an atheist, I'm certainly not going to defend Christian rationales for whatever customs they have. I was just stating a fact. However, maybe I should name my child Jesus H. Christ and see how he is treated!

It would be called a sacrilege in Nigeria. Just name him Jesus.You would learn there's a difference between Jesus and Joshua.