vickyO: Una just wan dey ignorant. Berniemoore explain this thing wella so te me sef don get more back up to condemn the catholic mode of worship. Why don't you just accept the truth in humility and make ammends instead of sprouting baseless argument. Reason along with ya heads no let sentiments interfere..

Bernimoore just dey bring to light many things and that means more trouble to image worshipers, those who have chosen to leave the path Christ followed.

italo:

I have never bowed to an image or idol...and I don't know any Catholic who has.

So you admit that you are an idol worshipper since you have or had images on your phone or laptop? Yes or No?

frosbel posted a picture of Pope john Paul kneeling and bowing before a woman's image. What you want is just to see it and bring more ridicule to your catholic church.

Do you think God will be happy with an Israelite who did this:

if one of them secretly go to where Moses kept the bronze snake and kneel before it saying "O! Great serpent, bring me and household healing from god."

Do you think God will be happy with the person?

just imagine heretical JWs responsible for 90% of the false propecies in the world running their mouth here.

@bookmark

So you actually believe all imagges are idolatorous.Y is it then that you have chosen to ignore images produced by various churches and peoples and chosen to focus on catholics alone? Don't I smell hypocrisy,envy and sheer hatred here?

@benimoore

Yes we ask mary to pray for us to Jesus and we have no apology for that.The bible says Jesus is the only madiator between God and man and not between man and Jesus.so there is nothing wrong in going to Jesus through Mary just like most of you hypocrites go through your pastors and brethren to Jesus

Boomark:

frosbel posted a picture of Pope john Paul kneeling and bowing before a woman's image. What you want is just to see it and bring more ridicule to your catholic church.

Do you think God will be happy with an Israelite who did this:

if one of them secretly go to where Moses kept the bronze snake and kneel before it saying "O! Great serpent, bring me and household healing from god."

Do you think God will be happy with the person?

Joshua did worse than kneeling down by prostrating before the ark yet God was pleased wit him

BERNIMOORE: having exposed the baseless reason for mary's statue in the church or shrines, lets see the motive behind the statue,tagged 'modern idolatory! pagan culture,why must holy things be shared with pagan,thats the mess catholics are dragging xtianity to!

picture A below


picture B below

Posting thrash from an anticatholic website will not help your argument.Everything contained there are all fallacies

vickyO: Una just wan dey ignorant. Berniemoore explain this thing wella so te me sef don get more back up to condemn the catholic mode of worship. Why don't you just accept the truth in humility and make ammends instead of sprouting baseless argument. Reason along with ya heads no let sentiments interfere..

Na who be dis one!! Are you now begging us to recant our faith!! I never imagined fundamentalists would resort to emotions how pathetic!!

Even since I came on nl I am yet to ear of anyone who was made to apostatise here.

@bookmark

You are yet to condemn bennimoore for posting images here which you claim violates Gods commandments

chukwudi44: just imagine heretical JWs responsible for 90% of the false propecies in the world running their mouth here.

@bookmark

So you actually believe all imagges are idolatorous.Y is it then that you have chosen to ignore images produced by various churches and peoples and chosen to focus on catholics alone? Don't I smell hypocrisy,envy and sheer hatred here?

@benimoore

Yes we ask mary to pray for us to Jesus and we have no apology for that.The bible says Jesus is the only madiator between God and man and not between man and Jesus.so there is nothing wrong in going to Jesus through Mary just like most of you hypocrites go through your pastors and brethren to Jesus

This is heresy, so where in the bibile does God or Jesus pointed out that the only mediator between Jesus and man is Mary? PLease and please have you forgotten when Jesus said in his own words that come to me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest not come to mary and she will come to me to give you rest.

This are man made tradition from the devil that had impeded the focus on God and Christ, and people are ready to keep the tradition more that keeping the faith in God through Holiness and righteousness.

Definition of an Idol worship from PEDIA "

[quote author] Idolatry is a pejorative term for the worship of an idol, a physical object such as a cult image, as a god,[1] or practices believed to verge on worship, such as giving undue honour and regard to created forms other than God.[2] In all the Abrahamic religions idolatry is strongly forbidden, although views as to what constitutes idolatry may differ within and between them. In other religions the use of cult images is accepted, although the term "idolatry" is unlikely to be used within the religion, being inherently disapproving. Which images, ideas, and objects constitute idolatry is often a matter of considerable contention, and within all the Abrahamic religions the term may be used in a very wide sense, with no implication that the behaviour objected to actually consists of the religious worship of a physical object.

Behaviour considered idolatrous or potentially idolatrous may include the creation of any type of image of the deity, or of other figures of religious significance such as prophets, saints, and clergy, the creation of images of any person or animal at all, and the use of religious symbols, or secular ones. In addition, theologians have extended the concept to include giving undue importance to aspects of religion other than God, or to non-religious aspects of life in general, with no involvement of images specifically. For example, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. Man commits idolatry whenever he honours and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money etc."[3][/quote]

[/quote]This is heresy, so where in the bibile does God or Jesus pointed out that the only mediator between Jesus and man is Mary? [quote]

Did I ever say anything like dat? Please don't misquote me.I only said Jesus is the only mediator between God and man.This implies one can go still go through fellow men or even angels to Jesus.I never said mary alone.

A very good example of idol worship is when your useless and fraudulent pastors starts worshipping private jet like they are now doing

@ Boomark,

Since you have/had images in your phone/laptop, do you admit to being an idol worshipper. Yes or No?

Abagworo: I don't know why you Africans even believe wholeheartedly in Christianity and Islam in the 1st place. All the Churches I've ever been to make me laugh at how gullible Christians are to their Pastors and Priests.

Would you prefer us believing in gods made of wood and stone?
Their powers have been rendered useless by Jesus' power so many times that even if I had doubts about his supremacy over ALL, I would still be CERTAIN on his superiority over African gods. About being gullible, that's because many christians refuse to study... They rather hold fast to that which they hear from their pastors, thereby sometimes becoming rigidly blind to church doctrines and traditions even when such contradict the Scriptures.

@chukwudi44,

Yes we ask mary to pray for us to Jesus and we have no apology for that.

Who commanded that? can you back it up using the bible,just one quote? or bible is irrelevant? Nobody needs your apology here! the only ones who needed it are those whom you led into idolatory what God never commanded and led into sin,some are dead now and you still demand moneys from their relatives 'in the name' of 'purgating' their souls,if you dont owe such an apology,or God an apology,we dont need it pls.

The bible says Jesus is the only madiator between God and man and not between man and Jesus.

Oh, are you saying jesus and God are not 'one' again? (trinity) even on earth is jesus not having 'the fulness of Deity rest on him bodily? and that means that even in body form he is God in human body? can you see that you have boxed yourself in a corner? lets go now!

[size=14pt]so there is nothing wrong in going to Jesus through Mary [/size]just like most of you hypocrites go through your pastors and brethren to Jesus

do i hear you say''nothing wrong in going to Jesus through Mary''
We are still saying the same thing, since you catholics says jesus is God,equal with God,God in human form, is he a mediator to himself and man?

lets read from the bible,who a mediator is, and what constitutes the parties,(law discipline required here)

Galatians 3:19-21

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels[b] and entrusted to a mediator.[/b] 20[size=14pt] A mediator,however, implies more than one party; but God is one.
[/size]

now going by pauls defination ''A mediator,however, implies more than one party'';see the description below;

What the hell is his point exactly?!

[/quote]234. BERNIMOORE: Quote Post

@chukwudi44,


Yes we ask mary to pray for us to Jesus and we have no apology for that.

ho commanded that? can you back it up using the bible,just one quote? or bible is irrelevant? Nobody needs your apology here! the only ones who needed it are those whom you led into idolatory what God never commanded and led into sin,some are dead now and you still demand moneys from their relatives 'in the name' of 'purgating' their souls,if you dont owe such an apology,or God an apology,we dont need it pls. [quote]

In Rev 5:8 and Rev 8:4 the angels and winged creatures acted as mediators conveying prayers of xtians before the lamb.so also do catholics ask of Mary

[/quote]Oh, are you saying jesus and God are not 'one' again? (trinity) even on earth is jesus not having 'the fulness of Deity rest on him bodily? and that means that even in body form he is God in human body? can you see that you have boxed yourself in a corner? lets go now! [quote]

Boxed who into a corner? Jesus remains God with the full nature of God.The exact nature of God remains a mystery to us mortals but we believe so because the scripture taught us so

As christians the bible is our standard. Why not follow Biblical doctrines and let go of man imposed ones. Praying to Mary relates to necromancy (praying to or inquiring from the dead) which the Bible condemns strongly. We all know the truth why dont you let it set you free by acknowledging.

As Christians the Bible is our standard and it strongly condemns necromancy (praying to or inquiring from the dead). Does praying to Mary not relate to necromancy? Let the truth set you free catholics, they are boldly written in the Scriptures.

Praying to Mary relates to necromancy, right? And the Bible strongly condemns necromancy. Why not let the truth set you free?

@italo

What the hell is his point exactly?!

your co catholic said this below

chukwudi44;''nothing wrong in going to Jesus through Mary''

and that is what the PICTURE OF MARY as a mediator replacing jesus role(above).since jesus is GOD,he is a party with God, jesus cannot be God and a mediator in between Himself as a God and humans! you cannot be a judge in your own case.do you get the picture now, that is the picture of declaring 'mary as our salvator' looks like.

@chukwudi44

the angels and winged creatures acted as mediators conveying prayers of xtians before the lamb.so also do catholics ask of Mary

Are you contradicting your co-catholic, about the role or angels receiving any form of worship? see how you contradict your co catholic below;

ITALO;....John fell at the angel's feet to worship him. Even though it was wrong

All these shows that your faith is rooted in lies! no agreements to your beliefs,ipity many who had died in this ignorance.

@ Bernimoore,

You are desperately resorting to lying openly now.

How does angels acting as mediators contradict angels not being fit for worship?

Lies...lies...lies

Defend this with more lies, typical of protestants.

@italo,

How does angels acting as mediators contradict angels not being fit for worship?

Do you read the bible verse quoted before posting? obviosly not,its getting messier with you guys,
and who command angels as mediators,chukwudi your co catholic dodge this question,and nothing like a mediator was ever mentioned in chukwudi's bible verse below,not even an angel,but four living creatures and the twenty-four elders, In Rev 5:8;

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

[color=#770077]what do we learn here;

(a)the ''four living creatures and the twenty-four elders'' (angels not inclusive) of which ''each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense which are the prayers of the saints.'' are not angels nor mediator.

(b)The seven angels who stand before God posses no incence at all in their golden cencer! but the golden cencer;(the cup used in receiving the incence,and added to their task,they were given trumpets,and much incence into the cup;golden cencer,so as to offer before the throne; read,

Revelation 8:2-4

2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, [size=18pt]that he should offer [/size]it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

since there is no evidence that these angels possesed the incence which are the prayers of the saints, but what they have was a golden cencer (the cup) to receive the incence, and these angels are acting according to the lamb's command,hence;''that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar'' so there was nowhere that record that these angels have prayers rendered in their name,which would have suggested that they are the one who brought the incence.

we can conclude according to the facts in this verses that the angel acts as 'messanger/servants' under instructions, and this harmonises with what one of the angel said to john in revelation that you (italo)quoted earlier which the angel says''im a fellow servant like you,worship God''

if the angels were acting as a mediator, there would have been evidences of records in the same revelation that they actually receieve prayers. since there is no proof to that effect and no mention of the word 'mediator' like 1 tim 2:5, and gal 3:19-20 that mentioned 'mediator' directly and stating the roles as it concern jesus, we have only one mediator, jesus christ!

can you see the harmony? no mention of mediator

@italo

You are desperately resorting to lying openly now.

How does angels acting as mediators contradict angels not being fit for worship?

prove using the bible how you determine or ever mentioned that angel acts as mediators,and some not fit for worship?

BERNIMOORE: @italo

prove using the bible how you determine or ever mentioned that angel acts as mediators,and some not fit for worship?

That I have already down in Rev 8:4 when angels acted as a medium conveying the prayers of God's people to Jesus.

@chukwudi

Rev 5:8;


8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

rev 8:3-4;read

3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.



you did not deny the fact the angels received the incence ( which are the prayers of the saints.not from Gods people,but from the 4 living creatures and 24 elders) (who are not angels)

That I have already down in Rev 8:4 when angels acted as a medium conveying the prayers of God's people to Jesus.

rev 8:4
''And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, [b]ascended before God [/b]from the angel’s hand.



CHUKWU...''ascended before God'', and not jesus, you are yet to prove 'mediator from Gods people to jesus here,and rev 8:4 is not supporting that

vickyO: why do yall ask her to help you obtain eternal salvation which can be gotten from one's believe in Christ. Arent you placing on her the role of a mediator?(begging Christ on man's behalf)

just 3 biblical principles 1 becos "eternal salvation" is a gift of God, 2God grants gift to those who ask for them, 3 intercessory prayer is one of d ways of praying.
Becoming an intercessor doesnt mean u are now d mediator of d covenant.

BERNIMOORE: @ijawkid

it is not a new thing,

and it is contained in the

THE MARIAN PRAYER OF
POPE JOHN-PAUL II



see one of the links; i can supply other links too
http://prayers.viarosa.com/Prayers2BlessedVirginMary.html

this raise some questions demanding a honest and unedited answer!

Since Our Lady of Fatima (the Virgin Mary) asserts an equivalent position to Christ with respect to mediating salvation, we have a problem on our hands since 1 Timothy 2:5 together with Hebrews 7:23-25, Acts 4:11-12 and John 14:6 clearly and unequivocally state that Jesus Christ is the eternal and sole mediator who can save us and that he is the only way to the Father. Can the Virgin Mary have any possible rivaling salvaging role that also happens to be supported by scripture? No, it doesn’t… because salvation is a business done by Jesus and Jesus only.

sacred Scriptures leaves no room for doubt or compromise.

these are written in black and white,and with the internet,it is easier to asses catholic sites,new advent and even the CD rom which i have, but unfortunately they deny,because they are told to do so,thats pathethic.

now you are on your own!!! I have never seen a catholic wu said mary is the mediator of d new covenant. I cant be called forth to defend sumtin d church doesnt believe

To bookmark, it is interesting that you call joshua an idol woshipper.
To bernimore, u have dodging d questions u were asked.
To the Op, if you wish to know what catholic practice and why please visit http://forums.catholic.com.
Peace

@ubenedictus

now you are on your own!!! I have never seen a catholic wu said mary is the mediator

we are saying that popes meridian prayer below implies that she replaced jesus as the mediator of salvation for humans; which should be the original role of jesus;...1 Timothy 2:5; ''For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus'', your pope prayer implies;MERIAN PRAYER OF POPE;

''Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith
and [size=18pt]obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation[/size].
O clement, O loving, O sweet Mother of God
and our Mother, Mary''!

you lost yourself by deleting this quote from THE MERIAN PRAYER where you are lifting it from because you are embarrassed,here is it again,thanks to the internet;

''Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith
and [size=18pt]obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation[/size].
O clement, O loving, O sweet Mother of God
and our Mother, Mary''!
whats the meaning that you are on your own!who need that?
are you with me before? do i expect you to be with me before, pls continue to deny,because you are told to do so.a beg!

@ubenedictus

To bernimore, u have dodging d questions u were asked.

i have answered all questions,and you did not ask me any that was not answered duly, italo asked and he was duly replied too, and he did not complain, so if you feel unsatisfied,ask me again afresh! im waiting.

BERNIMOORE: @ubenedictus


we are saying that popes meridian prayer below implies that she replaced jesus as the mediator of salvation for humans; which should be the original role of jesus;...1 Timothy 2:5; ''For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus'', your pope prayer implies;MERIAN PRAYER OF POPE;

''Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith
and [size=18pt]obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation[/size].
O clement, O loving, O sweet Mother of God
and our Mother, Mary''!

you lost yourself by deleting this quote from THE MERIAN PRAYER where you are lifting it from because you are embarrassed,here is it again,thanks to the internet;

''Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith
and [size=18pt]obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation[/size].
O clement, O loving, O sweet Mother of God
and our Mother, Mary''!
whats the meaning that you are on your own!who need that?
are you with me before? do i expect you to be with me before, pls continue to deny,because you are told to do so.a beg!

hahaha, that quote didnt say mary is d mediator of d new covenant!

BERNIMOORE: @ubenedictus


i have answered all questions,and you did not ask me any that was not answered duly, italo asked and he was duly replied too, and he did not complain, so if you feel unsatisfied,ask me again afresh! im waiting.

sorry dear, time spent on u is time wasted. Why should i bother my self, my last question is there all u need to do is scroll up.

sorry dear, time spent on u is time wasted. Why should i bother my self, my last question is there all u need to do is scroll up.

so you are tired, that is great! my mission accomplished on you.if you are bold enough bring them on!thanks